Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Rob: Welcome to Dear Watchers.
Rob: A comic book and movie question Mark uh reverse podcast.
Guido: Where we do a deep dive into the multiverse, exploring the storylines that inspired the alternate universes we all love. And your watchers on this journey are me, Kido, me, Dr.
Rob: Rob.
Rob: That's very lame. And our special guest member of the Council of Watchers are returning guests and frequent artist Elliott Hi.
Elliot: Uh this is a variant of me that has from uh the multiverse that has no children and no family.
Guido: Can just on a moment's notice, recorded podcast. Exactly what a dream multiverse that is.
Elliot: And he has uh unlimited resources to buy comics and draw all day.
Guido: Well, we're really excited for this bonus episode on Doctor Strange Multiverse of Madness, a movie we've been waiting for for years and fits in perfectly. So we have a bit of a structure that we're going to use to talk about it. And we're going to start with our origins segment.
Elliot: Right now on this very show, you're going to get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago.
Guido: So here we're going to uh share one thing we each want. We haven't seen the movie yet, but the rest of the episode will have seen the movie.
Elliot: Yes.
Guido: So I'll start. I would like mutants. And part of wanting mutants is both my love of X Men, but also it will create a lot of excitement for me and anticipation of how mutants and their story will continue to unfold. So somehow I want there to be named mhm a mutant gene or mutant power or something that is explicitly mutant. So that's my want. Now, are you cheating? A little bit, Keto?
Rob: Because we know from um you and I have avoided some of the trailers, but we know from some of their too blatant marketing that Patrick Stewart.
Guido: No, I'm not counting. Well, if there are multiversal mutants, I want them to be folded into the ongoing universe that we will have more of. Uh so yes, I want mutants in my MCU. So I don't just want a mutant in another dimension. And then that's closed off. That's why I added that for me. Mutants create a lot of excitement about where the story will go.
Rob: This isn't my hope, but part of my hope is that the whole thing with Professor X is just like a big catfish.
Guido: Well, I don't want to talk about it. I don't even want to think about it.
Elliot: I have two follow up questions. Quick questions. Yeah. In episode eight of Wanda Vision, we get a hint. It's not said that she's got those powers that there's license. Would you like that as part of this, you want that clarified a little bit?
Guido: It can be. I mean, I don't think it will be her because they've spent so long in the comics keeping her now, not a mutant. So I don't think they will go back and name the fact that she was predisposed. I don't think they will go back and call it a mutant gene, because in the comics it's been reckoned and she's not a mutant. But that would be fine if they were to do that. Yes. But I really want the language of mutant used. Okay.
Elliot: And I need a level of satisfaction here. What if there's a multiverse where there are like, is it okay to name a multiverse of mutant and then have that seed planted and there's a possibility that that can be explored later or you need it.
Guido: As long as it's really clear it will be exported later. So as long as the door is not closed and it's like, will they reopen that door? I really want it to be clear that the door will be walked through again.
Elliot: Okay. All right.
Guido: Uh what's your mind?
Elliot: Mine is we might need a uh whole separate podcast with to help us work through this, because this is something we've talked about. You explore it and everything everywhere, all at once. Your bonus episode in that which I loved after Loki, and then particularly after Spiderman, No Way Home. Um and then what if a little bit. Also, I'm looking for the answer. I need some more multiverseal rules, because the rules, it seemed like they made up rules that worked for Spiderman, No Way Home. And there's all that stuff we can get into Loki. My big question, so after Loki is did the events of Loki create the multiverse? But because the TBA is out of time, does that mean the multiverse has always existed? Did that happen in a linear fashion? Do we need Loki at a certain point? So I'm not going to get into some of the stuff with the timelines.
Rob: I think branching off and Loki, the rules there never quite felt super solidified.
Elliot: Right. The rules worked for Loki, then the rules work for Spiderman, No Way Home. There was other rules for what if kind of. And because this title has had multiverse in it, I'm hoping it's like the Marquee event that helps bring all of these, like what's the MCU's multiversal story is there going to be some rules. What does that open up for the future? Um i just like some clarity on it and a direction, like a unifying thing right now. Those three properties, they're not properties. Those three titles that we've already got in the multiverse feel very separate.
Guido: Would you be okay if the rule was really broad in sweeping? If the rule is just the multiverse exists and we can sort of move in and out of it however we want.
Elliot: I think that's fine. I think the thing that's getting me excited is the trailer says Doctor Strange says to want. I think all of us have seen only that first season. We are like the winners of the Purist, the Marshmallow test.
Guido: Yeah.
Elliot: Because he says, what do you know of the multiverse? And so I want there to be. I don't care about an exposition dump. I mean, we got it at the end of Loco. Jonathan Majors can show up and explain it to me at the beginning. So I'd like a little bit more clarity um on it. Yes, I'd like a little bit more clarity on it.
Rob: I think if they did what they did with time travel and Endgame, we'd all be very satisfied. Where did they completely explain it? No, but they gave enough of an explanation that you're not going asking too many questions.
Guido: Yeah.
Elliot: And I think it's fine. It's like, well, did Captain America go back and have a branch timeline and did old man Steve Rogers come in from an alternate? I kind of like that stuff.
Guido: I know they didn't write it leaves question.
Elliot: Yes, they didn't really have an answer and that's something to be explored. I think they've already explored it. And now I need the answer mhm before I share my want.
Rob: I'm going to share my prediction based on your want. Elliot.
Guido: Way to break the rules that we've laid out here.
Rob: Well, I'm breaking the rules.
Rob: Like Marvel has broken the multiverse rules, which I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but my prediction is spinning off of House of M that at some point in the movie, probably in the third Act, Wanda says no more multiverse uh and no more mutants. And then we have mutants in the other multiverse. Maybe the Patrick Stewart that we may or may not be in the movie.
Rob: Okay, stop talking to them.
Rob: That's folded into uh the MCU universe. That is my prediction.
Elliot: The danger of making a specific prediction is you're going to be more disappointed when it doesn't come see.
Rob: I have no stakes in this.
Rob: So I'm not really going to be disappointed.
Guido: In case not correct the stakes we have. What is your watch?
Rob: So what is your one? I would love to see some real horror elements in this film. So it's directed by Sam Raimi, who got his start in horror. Most of his movies are horror, of course, the Evil Dead franchise. He made the Spiderman movies, which are not horror. And I was never a huge fan of the original Spider Man series, but a lot of horror podcasts and horror publications are talking about this movie. There's, of course, great capacity to have some kind of Lovecrafty and cosmic horror elements into it. So I would really love to see that embraced, which is something that the Marvel movies have never really done up to this point.
Elliot: Yeah. I remember when Scott Derrickson got hired for the first one and I didn't know about them and it was like, oh, this is going to be a little bit scarier. I get to watch it with my kids who are in elementary school. So they're more of a litmus test of like, oh, that was really creepy.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Elliot: The only kind of eerie part is that first time when he goes when the Ancient One introduces them to everything, but it's not scary. So uh I'm not as big into horror as you are. I consider you.
Speaker UNK: Uh.
Elliot: Is it like jump scare? Is it like sometimes I'm like that's kind of like gross to watch because Sam Raimi in The Spiderman One. Spiderman Two is my favorite movie. But that Doctor Octopus thing, when his arms come out in the medical facility, when he's getting operated on, there's a little bit of camp to Sam Raimi's core.
Rob: There definitely is that camp out.
Guido: And that's always been true. Yeah.
Rob: Uh i don't think it's about jump scares. I think it's more about general mood. And I definitely could have some of that humor, which he has, and Drag Me to Hell and Evil Dead, too, and army of Darkness. But I would definitely like that kind of overall ambiance. We've never really gotten too much into that in the MCU. Just creepiness.
Guido: And Danny Elfman is an interesting composer for it. I know one of us has already previewed the soundtrack, but just in general, as a choice as a composer. He does creepy, but he does creepy with a lightness.
Elliot: Sure.
Rob: And he did the Spiderman.
Guido: Batman score is pretty creepy. Beetlejuice. Did he do Edward's Rans? Probably like all of that kind of stuff, hasn't he?
Rob: Yeah, everything burden except for, um I believe, Ed Wood.
Elliot: Oh, right.
Guido: Wow.
Rob: That's Howard Shaw. I know that one. But yeah, he also did The Amazing Spiderman movie, the original Spiderman theory. So he knows how to do superheroes. He did Dark Man also for Sam Raimi, which is another great superhero movie.
Guido: Oh, right. And when we were just watching that recently, we were like, this sounds like Batman.
Elliot: He also did some of the tracks on Age of Ultron.
Rob: Oh, yeah.
Elliot: Uh the only other Marvel I didn't know.
Guido: That um weird. All right. I think that wraps up our origin segment.
Elliot: Yes.
Rob: So now we're actually going to drive out and see the movie. So the next time you hear our voices, we will have seen Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness.
Rob: So just as America Chavez punches through other dimensions, we have punched a hole uh into a dimension where we have now seen Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness.
Guido: So I got my mutants. I'm satisfied. Even though they didn't use the phrase mutants, I am satisfied in part because it's the Xavier in the yellow wheelchair. Oh, shit. Spoiler warning.
Elliot: Should we start over? No, the yellow chair was in a trailer. You didn't spoil it. Kevin Feige did. Okay.
Guido: All right. So spoiler warning from here on out. And so, yes, I'm satisfied that I got my mutants and I definitely got my anticipation.
Elliot: This is Elliott Elliot common card. I got more of the multiverse. I will save some of this for later uh about the rules of the multiverse. And I just got my I can't remember if I mentioned this before, but I got my really just great MCU feeling.
Rob: And I said I wanted horror in it, and I think I definitely got that. There was lots of Sam Raimi touches, really. The scene where evil Wanda tries to start taking over good Wanda. There were so many classic horror isms in that scene. So while it wasn't a scary movie by any sense, I think it was definitely fulfilled that horror stuff. And for a little kid, definitely would be a pretty scary movie.
Elliot: Yeah. I'm not for all the listeners, I'm not bringing my eight year old.
Guido: So let's go into the multiverse. Mhm.
Elliot: I am your guy through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question what if?
Guido: All right, so we're going to each share three things we loved.
Elliot: Uh first, um I was surprised by this, so it made me enjoy it. I was surprised and enjoyed Dr. Strange's, Stephen Strange's heroism and his Ark in this. There's a lot more depth than I thought there was going to be. And I like the inner question that the movie pose he poses to himself. Is he happy there's more relationship with Christine Palmer? It kind of talked about. Wanda poses a question that you see in the trailer like, why am I the villain and you make mistakes? And it really wrestled with that. So I always loved that about superhero um genres and stories, and I got that here. So I really like that.
Guido: Do you like his arc within this movie, or do you think this movie does a good job of building his arc from what we already know about him in the other movies?
Elliot: Great question. This made me like Stephen Strange more as a character. So the first Strange is fine. I liked his role in Infinity War and Endgame, but this made me actually appreciate his character, and I'm excited to see him next.
Guido: So my first thing I liked is I thought this was the MCU movie with the director's fingerprints all over it the most. So while we've gotten James Gunn's tone and Tykawa TT's tone in MCU movies, I don't think we've ever had visually and tonally a movie that you could watch this without knowing it's Sam Raimi and say, oh, this reminds me of a Sam Raimi movie, even though it's an MCU movie. And that was really cool.
Rob: Well, and I think Taika and James Gunn, they both didn't have a lot of movies before the MCU. So you couldn't necessarily look at it and go, oh, that's a camera technique that one of them would use here. He uses that Evil Dead first person shots. There's some stuff that is directly also dragged me to hell. So you could go and watch this and go, oh, that's so much. Even Bruce Campbell punching himself is directly out of Evil Dead, too.
Guido: Even the makeup of the uh character, makeup, uh everything with the dark hold. And yeah, it was pretty remarkable.
Elliot: And I liked that. It was I was a little worried that was going to be camp like, I like the Doctor Octopus scene in Spiderman Two where you get the uh tentacles popping up and there wasn't a ton of that. So I was happy about that, too.
Guido: Yeah.
Rob: And for me, I'm going to say I really liked how they addressed how time had passed in the MCU world overall. So I liked the sequence with Michael Stahlberg at the wedding where he's talking about that he was dusted, too. And you get to hear the perspective of someone who's just an ordinary person who is dusted. But then I think the thing that I thought was one of the best was that Strange says that Mordo has tried to kill him in the MCU world all these times, but that's something we've never seen. Mordo doesn't even really become a villain in the first Doctor Strange movie.
Elliot: Right?
Guido: It's The Stinger.
Rob: It's just The Stinger. So I love that. Oh, there's all these stories that have happened in between these movies and in between these other big, giant global events like Infinity War and Endgame that we just aren't seeing. But one or two lines tells us a lot about what has happened.
Guido: Even Wanda's Ark has that a little bit. Because even though we get the Stinger of Wanda vision with her starting to go through the dark hole in hearing Billy and Tommy's voices in this, enough time has passed that she has fully possessed the dark hole, she has dream walked all these other worlds. So, yeah, I agree.
Elliot: You don't uh have to say MCU world anymore.
Guido: Now you have to distinguish six one six on screen from six one six in the comics.
Elliot: That's true.
Guido: Which is fine.
Elliot: The other thing, too, with that, Rob, is that I was a little worried with Endgame that clearly established that these movies took place in the years they came out. But now it's working to their benefit because they can just like comics, there are so many stories that can come between that they could go back and mine a little bit and refer to totally. Um there are so many. My second thing, though, and if you are still listening and you haven't seen this, please pause. I'm about to drop a major spoilers. I love the Illuminati. I love the characters on it. I was so surprised about Blackbolt and that Anson Mount was cast. My uh jaw was on the floor for Krasinski. And when they first mentioned the Baxter Foundation.
Guido: I was like, yeah.
Rob: Oh, my God.
Elliot: It was done. And that was just enough for me. And the fact that they have and I'm not a huge like, I don't think Krasinsky should be Reed Richards. And that's not why I was excited. It was just. It captures my imagination, the possibilities moving forward. I was wearing my Captain Carter shirt and she was in it, too. And just those little scenes, that was really fun. And because it's so reminiscent of Bendis Run, they start talking about incursions with Hickman it just got me excited as a comic fan. Also, I love that part.
Guido: The thing that got me in those moments was also that they were fully formed totally. So it wasn't like Reed as a scientist, and we don't quite know where he is in his career. This was costumed fantastic for Reid.
Elliot: I've got kids.
Guido: He has kids. Exactly. So it was so amazing to me that they did not hold back. They just went for it.
Elliot: And Maria and I can do this all day with Kevin Hart. Uh and the way that Blackbolt dies is also like the way that for anyone that didn't like the human show, it's really funny. I laughed. I started laughing in the theater.
Guido: Yes.
Rob: And even having Monica be Captain Marvel makes Maria be Captain Marvel. It makes complete sense in the same exact way that Peggy becomes Captain Carter. We just can assume that she was hit by the Kree energy instead of Carol. And it could have just been one of those what if moments where one little thing happened and it totally affected the course of this reality.
Guido: Yes, it is fun. What ifs for eight.
Elliot: Uh 38, what if Inhumans was a good show and that was a badass?
Guido: Well, they can bring them back again from a different world and fix it.
Elliot: There we go.
Guido: So my second thing is Scarlett Witch as a villain. I first of all, love that. I never suspected going into this movie that she was going to be the villain. They did an amazing job of misleading us and concealing that. And then she was an awesome villain because not only did you see her raw power, but you saw and understood her motivation and how she was slightly corrupted, but not she didn't become world conquering, even maniacal like, just, I want to take over. She had a goal, and she was focused only on that goal, which ultimately becomes her own doing when she sees her children and realizes they will never accept her as their mother.
Rob: And if they had given Scarlett Witch America, then America and probably the Wanda in that other reality would have been the only people killed. I do believe that Scarlett, which would have just killed those two people, which still means she would have been a murderer.
Guido: Right. But she wasn't committing Math murder for fun.
Rob: She only did that to achieve her goal, which makes a lot of sense with the character and doesn't turn her into a mustache twirling.
Elliot: Well, and I hadn't thought about it until you just said it, Keto. I appreciate, too, that they've got that statue and Wonder Gore Mountain, which was uh also an awesome comic reference. And they were saying, or she says, I know I could take over the universe, but I just want my kids. So they show the subtlety of her villainous.
Rob: And so often in the comics, she's being manipulated by someone like Pietro in The One Run. Or she just goes insane, quote, unquote insane. And here none of that was really the case. She wasn't really being manipulated by anyone.
Guido: No. You have the slight corrupting influence of the Dark hole, but yeah, you have no demon possession or anything like that.
Elliot: Sorry, Rob, there was no more. She didn't say no more multiverse.
Rob: I know. I kept thinking that. And in the Illuminati sequence, they do talk a little bit about the rule setting up about some of the multiverses, I think, collapsing incursions. So they got a little bit of that in there. But yes, I was thinking, oh, is it going to happen? It's like, no.
Guido: And that'll relate to my question moving right along.
Rob: Yes. Well, you said Scarlett was being the villain, so I will say Wong being the hero. So Wong is definitely, I think after Drax or after David Batista's portrayal of Drax. I think Benedict Wong's portrayal of Wong is my second favorite MCU portrayal. And I thought they gave him a lot to do in this. He actually got to be a hero. He got to totally kick ass and a whole bunch of different sequences. He is the Sorcerer Supreme. I kind of half expected, oh, it's going to go back to Strange at some point. But no, they have these cool moments where everyone bowed to him. So I just thought it was a great way to honor this character. And I think Benedict Wong bring so much needed humor into that character and into this franchise and just their relationship with Doctor Strange.
Elliot: They still had that quippy love for one another, too. It goes all the way to the end. That's evident in Infinity War and in the first Doctor Strange, which I like too.
Guido: I like that they made him the Sorcerer Supreme movies ago, years ago. And it just is.
Rob: Yeah, totally.
Guido: I appreciate that a lot too.
Rob: And when Doctor Strange and America uh go to another realm, another universe, Doctor Strange says I have to get back to help. I can't leave Wong there by himself. So you get that sense of this love that these two people have for each other. It's not just, oh, I have to get back to save that universe. It's like I have to get back to save my friend.
Elliot: Yeah, my third one, one of many, but the one I'll pick right now. We talked about Wanda's uh motivation already, so I won't belabor that. I really enjoyed that. And I'd say I just really appreciated and enjoyed the ties to Wanda vision. Um the fact that it's the same writer was probably really helpful, but it makes the biggest no.
Guido: Michael Waldron wrote Loki.
Elliot: Yeah, that's right. Well, it makes me appreciate it even more. Um and when Xavier is trying to go into her mind and it's the rubble from WandaVision, there's a little TV screen that has the first episode on. I just liked how this is a continuation. The biggest question is, are the Disney plus series going to really matter? Are they like bonus tie in issues and like big events? And I think that answered this question I really liked. I just rewatched it for the fourth time before going to see this movie. And so it was fresh in my mind and it worked so well.
Guido: This uh was a sequel to Wanda vision more than anything else, which was so cool.
Elliot: Yeah. And a sequel to Doctor Strange because it picks up the Christine Palmer like you were saying at the beginning, Rob with the other doctor in the Church at the beginning. I just love those like little things that show time passing and it can work as a continuation of all these stories, which is what makes the MCU awesome every single time and what made this movie fun.
Guido: My last one that I have to go with is America. First of all, I love that you open with her. I love that the first lines of the movie are in Spanish. I love uh that she's so kick ass. Even though she's not able to use her powers fully for much of the movie, I was concerned that would mean she wasn't going to be very confident. But then that first scene where she's sitting at the pizza place with Strange, she's confident and quippy and funny and fully developed, even though she thought she could only use her powers when she was afraid, which ultimately isn't true. And she's so powerful and I'm so excited to see more of her. I mean, at the end when she embraces herself, we were in a slightly uh quieter theater and I just wanted to call out like, America Effing uh Chavez so awesome. And obviously I love that her mothers are lesbians as they are in the comics uh and she has the rainbow pin and Amore as Amore written on her jacket. And the only reason I won't buy the Marvel legend of her is because it doesn't have the rainbow pin on it.
Elliot: Oh please.
Guido: She is amazing.
Rob: And I thought her origin. I don't know if this is the same in comics, but I thought the fact that she creates this portal that sucks her mothers in it was very X menu to me, where we haven't really seen that in other characters where their power has caused something potentially bad.
Guido: The kicking of her power.
Rob: And then that has the scarring that that has because on all these other characters we've seen in the MCU, their powers are just kick ass and they don't really have that guilt. Except for probably Wanda, which is a nice kind of connection between those two characters.
Elliot: Yeah, I was worried too, after reading the most recent America Chavez movie series that you and I talked about because they rewrote her origin, that her moms weren't really from another uh universe. So I was like, oh, are they just doing this to fit the MCU?
Guido: Yes.
Elliot: And I'm so glad.
Guido: I'm so glad. And it looked like it was probably the utopian parallel. She's from this weird, crazy place. So I just love. Yes, I agree. And she's faithful to her original order and she's original.
Elliot: She doesn't exist in any other thing.
Guido: Which is cool, which is very cool.
Elliot: You're um just talking just maybe realize the connection too, between she's too afraid to use her powers and fear and Strange needs to face his fears is what he sold to the end. So they kind of play with this fear thing.
Guido: Yeah, good point.
Rob: Before this conversation goes too long, I'm going to say mine, which is I'm just going to cut to the chase, which is exactly what this movie did. As you were saying, Elliot, this movie actually literally starts with a chase. We have this slight respite with this wedding sequence. There's another battle sequence right after that. But the main thing I'm really thinking is this movie did not waste a lot of time not letting us know that Wanda was going to be the villain. Basically, she's on screen about five minutes past. It's revealed that she's the villain. And the movies just doesn't stop from there. Mordo. We see him, we get one scene where we think maybe he's good and then he's drugged their tea and he's an antagonist. So like, the movie never tries to string those things along. And I love a long movie, but after really long, Eternals, really long Spiderman, the distinguished competitions, three hour plus gloom Fest. I really love the two hour movie that just was action, action, action.
Guido: But what I think Sam Raimi and certainly Michael Waldron brought to it is there's still character moments.
Elliot: Totally.
Guido: And so even though it's moving really quickly, I cared a lot about Strange's relationship to Christine Palmer, which I never did before this. So even though the movie is still going, I was emotionally invested in things in this movie.
Elliot: Well, it's like Marcus and Mcfilly, the writers of lots of the Captain America and Gaming Infinity. I've listened to a lot of interviews with them and they say that the best scenes are ones that do multiple things. Like the Church scene at the beginning establish that this is a well written movie.
Guido: Yeah, good call.
Elliot: We can't uh move on until you get the last one. You have a bonus one. We got to talk about Charlie's.
Guido: Oh, my God. Because I had to squeal. I mean, the Stinger of Charlie's, uh their own showing up as anyone would have been amazing. But to come in as ClayA to end up being uh the mistress of the dark dimension, she looked amazing. They did not Mcufi her outfit too much. She was in bright purple 70s leotard. And I cannot wait to see more of her. I hope she's in 5 million MCU movies because I love her.
Elliot: I leaned over to guitar. I was like, wait, is that Claire? And you're like, I don't care who it is.
Rob: It's Charlize. I was like, I know it's Charlize serum.
Elliot: Yeah, that's awesome. So good.
Guido: All right, so on to pondering some possibilities.
Rob: Mhm.
Elliot: Will the future you describe be averted?
Guido: And before we ponder possibilities, what a bonus that we have that Xmen animated series clip as our transition.
Rob: There we got the yellow wheelchair, Charles. But yes, this is not my question. But we were thinking maybe Patrick Stewart will be voicing Charles on the news in Xmen 97.
Guido: We'll see. Love uh it. But anyway, so pondering possibilities, we each have a question. Yes.
Rob: So my question is I don't think it's will we but more, how will we see other demonic dimensions? So for years people have been saying, are we going to see Mathisto? I was so surprised that nightmare goes back to Doctor Strange's very first issue. So I kept thinking, oh, are these going to appear? So my question is not really how but when or how will those be integrated into this world?
Guido: Well, what's so cool is Clay. Does that uh end right there in that scene on the sidewalk? She pulls open what looks like the dark dimension. So who knows if the next movie that will deal with this is a Doctor Strange third movie? But whatever it is that we see Clay next.
Rob: We'Re going to see dark demonic entity Wanda is almost during the big climactic battles, she's almost pushed into a planet that looks like the planet that hate and Christensen melts of the set.
Elliot: It's most.
Rob: Thank you.
Guido: I don't think we're bringing Star Wars.
Rob: No, but I'm multi verse.
Guido: Thank you.
Rob: But I was thinking, oh, could that be STO's world? Because it totally looks like.
Guido: Yeah, we're just limbo in general.
Elliot: Well, it also begs the question they have so many franchises now. There are so many characters. Yes, I can't say ten years ago, seven years ago have been like, oh, we know what Doctor Strange Three is going to be about. We have now no idea. Like is it going to show up in something else? It's just impossible.
Rob: And also when we do see Charlie in the Stinger, she slices open with the sword. So I thought that's a perfect tie into Ileana Rasputin, who has the swords. And you could kind of link those characters and expand these other dimensions in that way too.
Guido: So my question building on that and what Charlie says at the end is when is Secret Wars going to be announced? Because this is love. Like, it's giving me chills right now. I love that this movie brings incursions in enough that in the movie it makes sense and sets up the conflict, but it does not resolve. And so we are going to absolutely. I have zero doubt that we are building toward the Russo's returning for Secret Wars so we can deal with incursions. And Clay at the end says you created an incursion. So now they're going to link stuff that in the comics was not linked to the incursions. And the dimensions and the dark dimension. And I can't wait. Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if Black Panther Two this fall has stuff about incursions now because this is it.
Elliot: It's what the MCU does best. They planted a little seed that's going to be so important now. They kind of know what they're doing. More I already talked about I wouldn't be surprised if Fantastic Four is going to start dealing with this and that this is the problem. It's like Hickman's solve um everything with Reed Richards that we have to solve this problem now.
Rob: And I could see them introducing who I always think of as being like the arch villain of all of Marvel, which is Doctor Doom and having again, a sorcerer character.
Guido: Doom is so key.
Rob: And you mentioned Black Panther, too. So we're in Wakanda. We could have another foreign evil, an evil country, an evil. I could totally see all those things starting to come together through the June character.
Guido: Secret wars. How far away are we from secret wars?
Elliot: Well, the Russo brothers need to clear their schedule because they've already uh said they want to do secret wars battle world.
Guido: So this is 2022. Let's make predictions now. I'm going to say 2030.
Elliot: I'm going 2027.
Rob: I think 2027 feels pretty accurate. Yeah. I mean, they can't let some of these actors age out too much.
Guido: But I feel like this is the long game. I feel like secret wars will be the end of most of these actors, which you, Rob, have always predicted would happen. And I did not believe because I think time is endless.
Elliot: Right. You can reset.
Guido: I think it will be the major reset. And so that's why I think it's years away.
Rob: I was surprised that this sets up Benedict for more. I was kind of thinking this might be the end of the road for him. He's been in this for a while. So I was very surprised to see that he's continuing and maybe he'll be continuing on to a big event like that so he can close out his arc.
Elliot: My son can play the new Captain America. We're getting in the weight room soon.
Rob: And then Kevin can retire to his own mob barrier somewhere.
Elliot: Perfect. Well, my question has to do with what I wanted to see, which is the rules of the multiverse. And I think the question I came away with from this is the rules for variance. So in Loki, which is where we get our first variance, Loki, it's established that Loki can be a crocodile. Loki can be Boastful, Loki can be a kid. Loki can be Sylvie. So that establishes that we get variants that can look very different or like in this movie and in oh, no. And I should mention Spiderman No Way Home, which I like even less now because of this movie. But that's another podcast. You've got Peter Parkers, that are Toby Maguire and Andrew Garfield, right?
Guido: Yeah.
Elliot: And you've got Eddie Brocks that are Topher Grace and Tom Hardy. So we've got that established. But then in this movie, every Doctor Strange is Benedict Cumberbatch and every Wanda that we see uh is Elizabeth Olsen. So I really want to know what the rules for variants are because in my own mind, as Brad from Comic Book Couples Counseling calls his head Canon is that Loki can be different because Loki is adopted. So whoever owed and adopted in one universe can um be named Loki. But I don't know if Laufee named.
Guido: That is a great explanation. I really like that.
Rob: I totally agree. But you then do have to take Spiderman No Way Home out of the equation.
Elliot: Right home. Thanks, Tony. For me that raises this is related is is this the only time we're going to see John Krasinsky as Reed Richards?
Guido: No.
Elliot: Can they recast?
Rob: I don't think it is.
Elliot: So that answer to those rules will answer the recasting question, because if Reed Richards has to be John Krasinski in every universe, then he's playing Reed Richards into Fantastic.
Rob: The contrary to that is that we certainly won't see Patrick Stewart.
Guido: And that's where, as we discussed earlier, the rules of variance in Loki also raise questions about time, which the multiverse in no Way Home. Well, I guess the multiverse in no Way Home does have a relationship to time because all the Peters are not the same age, right?
Elliot: Like Toby Maguire was Teenage Spiderman in 2002, right?
Rob: Movie in real time, all the villains in that have been plucked from the moments in their movie.
Guido: So we do have to deal with time because the Loki are different ages. Richard E. Grant has a longer life, you have kids Loki. So dealing with time will answer this and reveal the Patrick Stewart double that variant that we will eventually encounter, which won't be Patrick Stewart and won't be someone who's supposed to be aging into Patrick Stewart either, like James McAvoy was supposed to be.
Rob: But if Marvel doesn't do that, I think they were very wise in this movie to do that fan appeasement with John Krasinski and say, hey, you got him, here he is. Captain Carter is the same way. Like, hey, we're not going to give her her own movie or TV show, but you wanted her. Here she is in real life. So they never do anything else. They check those boxes. And if they do decide to do something else with those same actors as those same characters, it was established in this movie, so it really opens up a whole bunch of possibilities for them. So they were, I think, very smart in that regard.
Elliot: Yes, we'll see.
Guido: All right. Thanks for joining us on our bonus episode. Make sure to subscribe review.
Rob: Yes.
Guido: And tune in for our next regular episode.
Elliot: Thanks for having me, guys. This is awesome.
Guido: Of course, as always.
Elliot: Uh you can find Elliot at Elliotcomicard uh on Twitter for now.
Rob: And as the Watchu says keep pondering possibilities.