Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Rob: Welcome to Dear Watchers, an Omniversal comic book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.
Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey are.
Rob: Me Guido and Me Rob. And wow, this is an episode we have been waiting for.
Guido: Well, indeed, yes, it is. And here is what you need to know. This episode is about a personal hero and someone who is an inspiration to this various show and has influenced pretty much everything I say safely 90% of what we see in comics and comic book movies, especially today. We also have two versions of this very special episode. Our conversation was so great, it went long, happily, and we needed to keep the main episode edited down so all of our listeners can enjoy our bio of comics legend Mark Greywald, who we're talking about today, and then an edited version of our conversation with Kat Schuller Gruinwald, his widow and legacy advocate.
Rob: But if you are a patron of ours on coffee, visit deerwatchers.com and click Join. And starting at just $3 per month, you will get more background, including an overview of Mark's work and the unedited expanded version of our conversation with Kat, featuring more stories and background that we could fit into a normal episode.
Guido: It is well worth it for that expanded episode, and we're happy to share.
Rob: It with our supporters and with that Dear Watchers. Welcome to episode 72, and let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with today's conversation. Mark Grewenwald was the Bronze Age, Marvel bullpen and all of the myths that came with it.
Guido: Mark Grewenwald was and is the reason we have the continuity, the handbooks and the canon in our comics that we do.
Rob: Mark Grunwald is the reason the MCU can even exist.
Guido: Mark Grunwald is one of the reasons this podcast exists.
Rob: Engito I know you have an extensive bio for Mark that you're going to share, but let's talk a little bit about our personal histories with Mark. And it was so interesting when we started to explore his work more, because I was consuming Mark's work from a really early age without having any idea who he was. I think, unlike you, I was not really looking at the math heads of the books I was buying as a kid. But the one book I collected, I was such a nerd. I really loved, um, data and all that kind of stuff from an early age, and I was buying all of the official handbook of the Marvel Universe. It was really the first. And along with the DC Who's Who, the only comics I really sought out and collected as a kid, to have every single one. And that was really the brainchild of Mark compiling all this information in a pre Internet age so that you had it all together. And I just scoured over those.
Guido: Yeah, for sure.
Rob: Mhm. And then the other thing I realized I had, which we're kind of going to talk a little bit about it, and also how it has evolved, is I had his collected edition of his Squadron Supreme twelve issue miniseries, and I had the edition that had Marks ashes in it, which is a story. I think we're going to go much more in depth in our cat. And the sad thing is, I don't know if I still have it.
Guido: I think when, uh, you don't and I'm really angry and we need to confront your mother about this.
Rob: No, I think when she sold, uh, my childhood home, because it wasn't a comic that went in my long boxes, and I have all of those. I think, unfortunately, it was with books that kind of just went out somewhere. So hopefully someone out there is still enjoying my ashes. Comic of Quadrant supreme. And what's your background with Mark? Because, as you said, we're such an inspiration for this podcast.
Guido: Well, since I was older than you and reading comics for longer than you, I was paying attention to writers for a long time, so I always knew who he was. Of course he has Mark's remarks, his column in the back of issues. He played a large role in a lot of the titles I was reading, or at least were tangental. And he was the editor in chief of Marvel at the peak time that I was reading early teenage years. And so I always knew who he was and knew that he was this lively, interesting character. But it was really only I don't even know. The last few years, just as I've dived further into people who ushered in eras of comics and history of comics and the business side of comics, that his name became more important to me, more salient to me. And then I discovered that he had written this magazine, Omniverse, that we're going to talk about a little bit. And it does everything I want. The same thing that the official handbook did for you, omniverse does for me. He's doing this incredibly academic analysis of world building and worlds and how they all can exist. And it was extraordinary. And so that just set me on the path, uh, down a rabbit hole. I've been slowly, over the years, collecting all of his titles, which we'll talk more about in one of our segments today. And his writing is amazing. His editing was amazing. Everything about him that we've gotten to know is amazing. So he is a legend and probably should be considered on the Mount Rushmore of Marvel. He absolutely, um, needs to be there.
Rob: Yeah. And one thing I took from this conversation with Kat is that she said, Mark didn't have a career, he didn't have a job, he had a calling. And I think that really speaks to his journey of being a fan first, and then becoming involved in the industry. And I think he really represents the first generation that really went from loving comics into making them. And not that I think Stan and Jack didn't love comics, but they didn't grow up reading them and being obsessed with them in the same way market. They didn't really even exist when they were kids. Right. So I think it really reminds me of that cultural shift we also saw in movies like a decade earlier where people like Martin Scorsese were true obsessives of that medium and then they had to make movies as opposed to the previous generation, like a Howard Hawks or John Ford, who are approaching. It more like a day job. And today fandom, sometimes better, sometimes for the worst, is such a big part of the comics world and can lead to podcasts like this one. And of course, I'm sure there aren't many creators working today who didn't start as huge fans first and still consider themselves big fans of the medium.
Guido: Yes, and we know from his bio and we know from talking to Kat about the way that his being raised by a comic fan made a huge difference. And we hear that story time and again from creators today who grew up or people we've had on this show and interviewed and worked with who were influenced by comics being a part of their upbringing. And so I think that's really powerful. And you're right, it is the early days of fandom. He's getting his start in the mid seventy s. You already have some of that. Roy Thomas was a fan who became an editor, so he sort of paved the way, but he's a very early example. And then you end up with yeah, this era and people like Mark. So I'm excited to dig in.
Rob: Yeah. So now that we've shared our backgrounds with Mark, let's tell our listeners a bit more about his backstory before we get into our interview with Cat.
Guido: So, Mark Eugene Grewenwald was a comic book writer, editor, a, uh, manager, a teacher, an academic, a researcher, sometime pencil, or sometime colorist comedian creator, an allaround legendary human being who gave us and the world lots of stories and lots of art until his tragic death in 1996. Really long story short, and there are some great resources out there on Mark, including two different Tribute issues, a back issue from tomorrow's publication, one that Peter Sanderson writes a piece, and one that's really amazing, that his widow, Kat, worked on, wrote for, and curated a bunch of people from Marvel legends past who knew him and wrote essays about him. There's also a forthcoming book that we mentioned briefly in our conversation with Kat from University of Mississippi Press who are doing some great comic works, and someone's been working on that for a long time. But if you're new to Mark's life mark was a lifelong comics fan and started in part because of work he did with his father on something called a Primer on Reality and Comic Books and A Treatise on Reality and Comic Books. So. Two zine self published essays in the Led to omniverse the Journal of Fictional Reality, a fanzine that lasted just two issues, but is an attempt to literally map all fictional reality and figure out what universe stories exist. In, ranging from Marvel to DC to Sherlock Holmes to Uncle Scrooge to all micro worlds to an inventory of new comics and how each one was dealing with world building. I mean, we have talked about Omniverse briefly. It's a nerdy obsession of mine. It's part of the inspiration for what we do here and absolutely the inspiration for our spin off show, which is called Omniversity. Um, Mark coined the term Omniverse that it is believed, and I believe that to be true first publication of it, at the very least, if he didn't coin it. And he spent a lot of time in that scene and then later in his columns as editor at Marvel, defining what an Omniverse was, what a multiverse was, what the different layers of the metaverse were like, how these universes worked and were built. He wrote two fan letters before he got started in a 1969 Xmen and a 1975 Captain America. What's cool is those weren't available digitally, but luckily, I had both of those issues, so we just pulled them out. And it's fun because in the Xmen one, his concerns were about the visual design. He has a lot to say about the Xmen's costumes and the logo, but also the science, and he's sort of challenging the science and wants a clear explanation, while the second to Captain America's team focuses on watergate and the political reality at the time and the way that Marvel's reality mirrors but diverges and uses our reality. So you can see the things that he was really obsessed with, which continued through his work. And so, anyway, he sends on, um, the verse to Jim Shooter to apply for a job and becomes an associate editor, and the rest is history. But let's try to continue a really quick recap of that extraordinary history now.
Rob: Yeah. Mark becomes an editor of Avengers. Hulk. Captain America. Thor spiderwoman. What if Many of which of those issues we've actually covered here on to your watchers. He also cocreates the official handbook of the Marvel Universe. He did some fill in penciling in his career, too. And then there is also his writing, and we go deep into his work and our thoughts about it in our expanded bonus edition just for our patrons. But Mark co wrote Contest of Champions, the first Marvel limited series ever. In 1982, he wrote Captain America for ten years, the longest run on the title and most issues written of it ever, and really among the longest runs in comics history, creating stories and characters that everybody knows. He wrote Quasar, another massive run with a unique and iconic humorous take on the cosmic character, including issues featuring an unsanctioned DC crossover that we've actually covered here on this show. And, of course, he wrote with, you know, Squadron Supreme, which is perhaps the most Watchman esque, pre Watchman title that in some ways delivers on the promise of a dark realitybased adult superhero comics. Even better, and with more optimism, he writes DP Seven for the New Universe, becomes executive editor, continues his monthly Marx remarks, becomes the inspiration for Mobius of the Time variance Authority, trains new editors, inspired countless Marvel bullpen antics, which we got to hear a little bit about. He becomes the editor in chief and, of course, unfortunately, tragically passes away very young m. Famously, his ashes were included in the ink for a Marvel Universe poster and then the first trade paperback printings of Squadron Supreme, which my copy is sadly lost to the sands of time, and he did so much more. But we're also going to touch on in today's conversation, and again, we go.
Guido: Into his work in more depth, why it matters so much, the influence of each of his major seminal works and what we think of them in our expanded bonus version. This bonus version also features the full conversation with our guest Cat Sheller Grew Inwald Unedited, so make sure to become a coffee patron of oursdeerwatchers.com. Click join so you can hear all about Mark, the incredible stories Kat had to share with us, some of which are only available in that expanded version. And if you're listening to the Abridged version on our main feeds, here we go. But please do consider joining us for the expanded edition. We're really proud of the background work and the conversation that we had. All right, so we are here with Catherine Schiller Gruenwald, Kat. Hi.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: Hi, everybody.
Guido: So Kat is a fashion designer, an artist, a teacher, a producer. There's a lot I'm missing. But has done incredible work to create more diversity and inclusion on the runway and in fashion, and has also been doing and been featured on so many panels about comics. Because of your late husband, Marvel editor and creator Mark Grewenwald, as well as the work you're doing to steward his legacy and to really bring comics to the runway and fuse all of the things you're doing together. Really a highlight of our New York Comic Con was spending a lot of time with you, and we have been looking forward to this conversation for some time. We hope it's the first of an ongoing conversation, because you might not know this cat, but Mark is a huge influence on this show. He coined the term omniverse, which we use in our tagline. And so his continuity policing, as he called it, his love of deep and complex and very human stories and your love of the same that we've learned from talking to you. So thank you for being here and welcome.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: Thank you for having me. And I'm always so touched when people, uh, appreciate his contribution to the comic book industry because he really strove for that. I think he was a 360 kind of creator. He was a fan turned pro himself. And he appreciated the fans more than, you know, even the creators that he was working with at Marvel, the fans came first. And he did all of his fan mail. Uh, he did that when he was a little boy. He wrote into the letter, ah, to Solomon. And, um, he saw his, uh, letter to Stan in print and he said, I knew I was going to be a writer from that moment on. And so he always made a point of answering the fans. And that became like he identified with the fans. He was a fan, and he wrote from the fans perspective, and he said, they deserve the very best of that product that we can turn out. And so he was really bright light, and, uh, he was the heart and soul of Marvel Comics. They've cited that time, mhm. And, uh, i, um, was just fortunate, unfortunately fortunate that I had him for such a short period of time in my life. But when you're married to a comic book guy till death do you part, not the.
Speaker D: It feels like he was ahead of his time in that way, in that now there's so many fans that are you're a fan first, and then you're getting into actually creating the art yourself. But it almost seems like when you talk to a lot of people from Mark's era or that came right before Mark's era, that that wasn't as much the case. Like, people weren't always, like, fans of the work. So in that way, him being like this super fan that then became a creator definitely seems like it's the trend that's happening today.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: Well, that's a great point. I never even thought of that because so many people said, oh, I was flipping burgers, or I was working at some menial job, and I applied for this job, and Mark took me and he trained me. And he had an editor's class every Monday, uh, that he really diligently followed through. And a lot of people, uh, attribute their careers to him really taking interest in just training him. And that's a really great point, because, uh, not that they weren't reading comic books or whatever, but in terms of creating them and how to create a great comic and what it took to be in the bullpen and what it took to write the Marvel way, he trained so many people. That's what really upset him. When Marvel was going through all that bankruptcy and he had to fire those 25, 35 people that ran since they didn't know how to do anything but comics at that point. That probably ripped him, uh, apart more than anything I ever saw. And it was Christmas week when they made him do it, too, right?
Guido: And was that way that he cared so much about people. I mean, it's evident to me in his stories, did it show up everywhere in his life? And where do you think it came from? This real humanity that he brought into everything he did and the stories you're telling now about him?
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: Wow, you really know him. These are the most insightful questions I've ever had, um, because I really thought about it. And when I met him, I made up my mind to really contribute to his life and to be a part of his journey, because it really was a journey. He didn't have a career, he didn't have a job. He had a calling and, uh, evident, and he was the type of person who was, like I said, that 360 thing. So if you were in his life, you were part of his whole comics were everything to him, so you were part of whatever aspect of it. I was not a fan, but, yeah, I was a comedy writer. So he would have me write the sketches with him for, um, the, um, comic, uh, Con, when he used to play games, fans. So we would come up with these ridiculous things to do with comics that were funny. And I think, I have no business doing this, but I had a comedy group, and he had a comedy group. So he figured out where your skills were and he knew how to plug and play and put you in and that you really shown. And then he would, um he would just know how to, uh, include you and make you feel like you belong, correct you, criticize you, critique you, whatever. But for the most part, you rose to the occasion. I was doing stuff I never thought I could do just because he asked me the common segments, because it was not that hard. They just figured it out. We had a Halloween party, and I had to build this Pit in the pendulum thing over our bed. I'm splattering the walls with this fake blood and making a big, giant devil's, uh, mask out of red, uh, peppers with rats in the rackettooey and all this stuff that we came up with. And it was just he just made an element of fun that evolved. And he allowed you to contribute where you could and what you could and then commend you, and then talk about it later, download upload, whatever, and always, uh, talking about how great your contribution was. And it didn't matter if it was Sarah. She was five years old. Didn't matter. Knew how to make everybody want to participate and get a charge out of it. Because he was a ringleader. I had Rick Parker draw this picture mark with a megaphone, a bullhorn in one hand and pages in the other. Dress like a ring leader with all the people in the Marvel Universe around him. And that little sign that said continuity or bust.
Speaker D: That's what's so interesting is that hearing you and getting to hear some of the stories about Mark also at New York Comic Con, with such a combination of the academic side and the fun side, because sometimes you hear the academic that's very state. There's no fun in it. But Mark was writing these very academic essays. He was the guiding force between the M official Marvel Handbook, which has this academic but then he was super fun, and he was super encouraging. As you're saying, he's the ringleader. And at the New York Comic Con panel that you participated in, we saw some photos of these wacky times that were happening at the Marvel offices. So it was such an interesting dichotomy that he was bringing both of these things to his work and his life.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: He was the most silly, serious person I ever serious about. Fun and serious about, um, uh, his work and about he wanted to elevate the comic book world. And I was talking to Jim Sallikrup the other day, and he had worked for Stan Lee. And Stan's, uh, real thrust in an obvious intention and goal was to elevate the form of comics to a higher level and to introduce mythology and introduce all these concepts. And it was fun, but there was a headier kind of approach, uh, to it. And that's what I think we're talking about here, is that it always was done with this very tongue in cheek, lighthearted kind of approach. And, uh, he just knew how to find that balance. So it was very m monty Python meets, uh, Joseph Campbell. Exactly.
Guido: Wow, what a pairing that is.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: Campbell is John Cleese.
Guido: You know, continuity was so huge from that work that he did with his father, where they're trying to map out how all of fictional reality is connected through to the official handbook and then his work as an editor. Why do you think that aspect of storytelling was so important to him?
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: M because inconsistencies are the devil's work. I mean, can't have destroyers out there, and you can't have, uh, inconsistencies in what superpowers are, and there has to be a logic. And he treated the fictional reality, uh, like it was reality. And, uh, so I think he wanted to embrace the fact that the comic world was just as important with its rules and regulations as the real world. And, um, it just drove him nuts that people did not, uh, do their homework. And I mean, he was a trivial king. I think they had some contest where stumped the grew or something like that, and nobody obscure fact. He knew, and it was up there. It was in his brain. And, uh, he had such a love of conics that he just devoted, um I just saw this obsession it wasn't obsession with compulsion. That's what he called it. He said, I don't write because I want to. I'm um, compelled. He wrote and his writing was a compulsion. Mark, uh, allowed the, um, antics in the office and they just kind of evolved and I always went over there. I was like, so, ah, jealous and enamored and engrossed in all the door art that they had cause they were always razzing each other and teasing each other and, uh, nobody was sacrosanct. And they had door art that were headlines and they were all artists. So they were doing some incredible stuff. And at its tribute I put all that door art up around the hall and people were looking at it. And my friend was an editor for Sally Jesse Raphael and said, is there anything I can do? And I said, Well, I have all these videotapes that I took from the four or five years that I was taking the, uh, comic line footage and I want to do a bounce down of all the fun that he had with the fans. And so I went through all those tapes and did the code and then I, um, went in and we just edited, uh, the whole Comic Con and I broke it into categories and you know, what each game was and it was probably about 8 minutes or something like that. And then I did his life in pictures. And, ah, it was um, to the Charlie Brown theme, uh, theme. The tribute was really, um, very hard felt. And then I did another tribute 20 years later and, uh, that's when I introduced the Ashley's because when I first, uh, met Mark, we started dating and then we got engaged and then he wanted a will because both of his parents, um, were sickly and he knew to hope for the best but expect the worst. So he wasn't going to marry me unless we did a will. So I said, okay. So he sat there and we read our wills and the contention who the will was I want to be cremated and my ass is put into a comic book. I was like, Whatever, okay, uh, I'll leave it in. I'm sure I'll never have to do it. Cut to four years later. I'm taking the bone chips out of the ash and stirring it into the ink and putting it into Squad and supreme. We put it into the Marvel Universe poster first and then into Squadron Supreme. But, um, we stirred it into the ink and I said, this is really the Wacky Widow. Uh, and he said the book came out was August of 97th. So he died in August of 96 and then it took about a year and then the Alex Ross cover had to get done. And then it came out and it was August, um, of 97 and my sister and I decided to take Ah a vacation, ah, in August. Because when she came back, I mean, after he passed away, I had to stand up in front of 750 Blubbering DC and Marvel, uh, employees and probably keep my composure. Uh, so my sister is a holistic healer, and so she did some energy balancing on me. And I was able to speak somewhat, um, um, intelligently without breaking, uh, down, uh, because I don't know about you, but you see a room full of people crying, and it makes you cry. It's like when somebody is throwing up, it makes you wretched to everybody's crying. So I just kept it together. And then, um, ten days later, she went back and she called me up and she said, you never believe this, but Dave passed, uh, away while he was in New York. So her husband had died while she was helping me. And it was like a check on play, guys. I mean, it's like the two sisters are joined by the death of their husband the same month. So we decided to go away and channel our husbands and find out why they died so young. And so we went to Hawaii. Uh, and I said, oh, I think that the book is dropping this week. So we went over to this comic book store and, um, come to find out that my visit there was quite noteworthy, because they knew who I was. And, uh, I found out in Baltimore that this woman, uh, who was Hawaiian, she went into the store, and they said, you'll never believe it was here. Um, I started to read the preface that I wrote, and then I turned on the television, and Princess Die had passed away suddenly that day. And it was like, oh, my gosh. Ah, talk about being on vacation and being out of the loop. And I guess it was because of that. And then Marvel had a pretty good PR person. Um, and so I got to do every BBC, every news program, articles, uh, interviews, uh, morning shows about the ashes in the comic, and what would you do? Where would you put your ashes? Um, I tried to be kind of the lighthearted widow, so I said, he threw himself into his work, uh, kind of the tagline that I was known for. So he threw himself into his work. Um, cut to 26 years later. He was inducted into the hall of Fame in July. San, uh, Diego Con. They have the Will Eisenhower Awards out there in San Diego. And, um, so finally, they inducted them, and, um, at the same, uh, week, contested, the Champions dropped. And, um, that was the crossover, uh, the book that Mark had created, the crossover Challenge. So the superhero versus never really existed until he created it with Contest of the Champions. So it was kind of ironic that they dropped that book. I was trying to think of how I could honor him, because it's illegal to put, um, uh, ashes into the condo. It's not condoned, to put it that way. I don't know if it's illegal, but they weren't. And. It's over in China. The plant is not up in Connecticut, where I drove up there and just found the pressman who wasn't weirded by having to put these ashes. Uh, uh, I want to do another thing, maybe have a special cover on it with ink and ashes or whatever. But, uh, I'm creating these comic, um, book bracelets with old comics, and I'm using resin, reading up on resin, and I see all these, like, a b in amber. It's like you can float things within the resin. And I said, oh, I'm going to do the ashes in the resin. So I made a mold. My producer and I for cosmoda came, um, up with this idea, and we found this woman on Etsy who made the mold of his autograph. And, um, it's about 16th of an inch deep, and we put resin in the autograph, and then I sprinkled the ashes in there. Ah, and it hardened, and it really looks amazing. So we pop it out and we put it on the COVID of, uh, this Conscious of the Champions, and, um, we call it the Mark. We mold Asha graph series. So it's only 100 books. And we're going to start doing I have next week, November 12. I'm at the East Side Mags in Montclair, and then I'm going to do a couple, uh, in Staten, uh, island, and some comic book stores. I'm going to do one in, um, the Perky Nerd. I'm going to go out to, uh, La in December and do that, and maybe in March, I'm going to have something with Roy Thomas that Forbidden Planet. They like the concept, but people are like, we don't know about signing, because I have a sign. I, uh, have a letter of authenticity that I sign. There's a little QR code that has a video of how the process is done. And so it's all very kind of nice package, but, um, uh, I'm starting to sell those, and it's really amazing how people are gravitating to that idea. It really struck a chord. And I have this little, uh, cartoon underneath the ash graph with a pointer. It says, Yep, he's in there.
Guido: Well, what a, um, beautiful intersection it is between who you are and who he is in terms of you being a designer and working with physical materials in the fashion realm, and then being able to combine that with what his final wishes were, and obviously his impact on comics. So it really feels like an, um, extraordinary fusion. So it was great. We got to see one of them when we saw you at your Comic Con.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: They're creepy and cool and collectible and controversial.
Speaker D: All the seas.
Guido: Yeah, but everything you're talking about I mean, it's interesting to hear, even now, you talk about the people who are impacted by him, who are part of your life now. Because I think what that speaks to is really, again, the power of that human thing that people who know his work or the way he worked are going to forever be changed by. And I think that's what brings people to want to honor that and want to honor that in the best way with integrity, with humanity, with support of his legacy. And you're shepherding so much of that. So thank you.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: Yeah. And I think that they appreciated the fact that I came, um, into the picture and the dark places that he was at because, uh, of his divorce. And then he had a girlfriend, uh, that died. And then he was just in such a dark, dark space. And I met him, and, uh, he just liked the fact that we were together so much that it really influenced his work. And I thought that's the best that you can do with a relationship a relationship is recreation, and it really enhances your life and it should not detract at all. Um I met him. I was a plus size model in the they came to the plus size, uh, agency and asked because they didn't have cosplayers in those days. You had to dress up like characters and they hired models to dress up like Spiderman and whatever. So they wanted chihulk, and they figured, well, we'll just go see big women. But we weren't big like that. We weren't. So I was sitting there, and, uh, I said, well and we really got along, and I said, wow, I really like this comic book guy, you know? And I said, uh, he said, Maybe we can have coffee or something. And I said, Well, I really don't date somebody who I'm working with. And he goes, you don't have the job. He said, but you'd be better for the Enchantress. And I was like, okay. So I looked at the Enchanters, and I was like, oh, my God. Is that some better compliment than looking like the SheHulk? Oh, my God. So, um, I had an Enchantress outfit made up for Cosmodo because I do a show now. Imagine if ComicCon had a baby with Fashion Week. That's what cosmo to cosplay runway is. Um, cosplay. But it's also fashion. And it is, uh, extremely, uh these people are dedicated. I mean, they are extremely precise about their costumes and in a way that Mark would love because he loved and he loved, uh, comics and he loved characters. And he would come to my fashion shows and he would sketch all these new ideas for, um, uh, outfits and for costumes. And he said, there's so much similarity between comics and, um, fashion. Uh, and I was like, you're right. So when I suddenly I met Dan and he said, let's do a fashion show, or something like that. Then we came up with cosmoda, which was just like a gray title. And then Cosplay Runway was available as a domain name, which was kind of like the universe telling me, do it. And so you know, we have kind of a mixed bag, uh, of what the show actually is. It's true cosplayers. But then I go to my designers and say, do you want to do a fantasy look? Do you want to do something that's out of the box? And so I have designers doing incredible stuff that may not be a character so much as it could be. Um, uh, and then we did Night, uh, of a thousand hurus for both. And we're, um, promoting this new movie called cosplay Universe. So this is, um, uh, a documentary. And, uh, I encourage everyone, um, to look up cosplay, um, universe, uh, uh, the movie cosplay universe movie. Uh, on Instagram, there's a link, um, and just download it because it's truly a great movie, uh, and it's very entertaining. They follow five top, uh, cosplayers. Yah yahan is one of them. And they wind up at the Olympics, uh, of, uh, comic Con in Japan. So, uh, it's a really heartfelt, interesting story. You get in depth, uh, about what makes these cosplayers pick and then how they take it so seriously when they're, um, uh, going to these, uh, competitions. Uh, and I just thought that it's just such a great cosplay. So it's just so multifaceted. I am going to try and teach cosplay costuming, um, at Fit, because I teach at Fit, and I teach fashion, um, for diversity. Um, I teach classes and petites. So outliers. Um, but I thought, I'm going to do cosplay because when I wanted to get my outfit done, I went to cosplayers and I paid them to do it. So I think it's going to be a $28 billion industry or something.
Speaker D: You were saying that Mark was seeing the writing on the wall with movies and that he was so ahead at the time. And you've been the same way with how fashion and cosplay has emerged, because when I first started going to comic con, you saw a few people. But now, as you said, it is this giant industry. And there's whole floors at Comic Con with people where you can get your photo with famous cosplayers. And that was, I think, definitely something that you were tapped into way ahead of the time, just as Mark was tapped into the evolution of the comics industry.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: Someone said, uh, this woman who runs fashion, Mingle, who like the LinkedIn for the fashion world, said, this is a combination of everything you've done up to this point in your life. So the fashion I had a magazine, I did events. I, um, met Mark. I had conqueror background. And then, uh, I met the fans. And then the fans suggested that I do something with them. And I'm like, well, I don't know what to do except fashion. I really can't do anything but fashion. So, no, we're going to do that. All right. Comic con is going to have a baby with fashion week. And that's what kind of did it. And, you know, I want to be a disruptor in my industry, too, because I was rejected, because I wasn't a size four. I was a plus size model when it was very unpopular to be anything but a stick figure. And, uh, so I kind of broke through that, uh, and showed that there was a different standard of beauty and a different, um, uh, aspect, and it was just good for business. Uh, and I try to tell these manufacturers, there are 67 million women who are not what you're designing those clothes for just because you don't think that you want to do your homework about this body type, because it's not just graded up. You have to really go in and do your homework. I can help you with that. So that's been my mission. And Mark always said that, leave the industry better than you found it. So I was, uh, one of the first plus size models, and now you see plus size models everywhere. And it's just so heartening for that. And I think that that was a lesson that I got from him. And the industry doesn't owe you a career. You have to carve out your own niche. Uh, mark did it. He created omniverse. He created the Journal of Fictional Reality, and he brought his portfolio in. And Shooter was looking for an assistant editor, uh, an assistant, and hired him because of that very thing, um, that he had obviously gone into a lot of depth. And if you can get your hands on a couple of those omniverses, um, I have the third copy that's in my warehouse, one, two and three. So, wow.
Guido: Yeah, I have a few copies of one and two each, because every time I see them, I need to buy them, but and I know the COVID for three was released, but never m saw the light of day. So, my gosh, that is something special.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: I know. And I have his calendars, too, because he wrote in a calendar every single day. Um, so he, uh, wrote in, um, from 78 to 96. I have his calendars every single day. So, um, I want to transcribe them because I feel like, uh, it's a chronicle of what happened, not only in his life, but at Marvel, he has the day that something happened in his calendar. And you may know that that date was sometime around 1979, but, you know, he's got it in his calendar. So there's a fan who, uh, put together all of the remarks about Mark. So Mark's column was Mark's remarks.
Guido: Yeah, Mark's remarks.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: John put together remarks about Mark and gave it to me. And it was so heartwarming. I think that I'm fortunate that I was able to grieve along with everyone else who was totally missed him. And, um, I'm so glad that I got a chance to read that and all the different books that are coming out now, um, there's a book that Jason Olsen wrote. He's a professor at Utah University. And he wrote a book called Mark Rumold and the Star Spangled Significance. Uh, or something like symbolism of Captain America. And, um, I bought that book and I didn't even realize that it was out. And, um, I read it in the first opening line was, when Mark Rumor died, there was a giant hole left in the industry. And I continued to read it and I said, why did this guy interview anyone? And I understand now, because he knew Mark's worked so well and he was a latchkey kid. And when he turned, Mark taught him everything he needed to know about how to approach life. I was like, Jeez, can you imagine having an influence on a kid like that? And so then he wrote a book and he was dead on. I mean, his references and the way he, uh, inferred things through Mark's work. He understood Mark through his work. He didn't have to interview everybody. He did m it's a really interesting, really interesting read.
Guido: I think you said you did talk to someone who has a forthcoming piece that is more biographical, right?
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: Yeah. Paul Allen, uh, contacted me about two years ago. And so I put him in touch with all kinds of people who, um, I knew never got interviewed. So his best friend he met in the 70s, Dean Mulaney, who, um, I think he works at Eclipse, and he was a dear friend of his, so I put him in touch with them. And so this book is ah called a Master of Fictional reality. Mark Rumor, a master of fictional reality. And, um, I read it and I had to fact check it and, you know, there were some things that were off and so it is really, um and it had to be only a certain amount of pages. And the guy I gave him, his best friend, he had so many different stories. And Paul said, well, you should do your own book. Stories that I couldn't include because I could only, um I don't know how many words a, uh, 200 page book is, but I could only have that many words. And, um, he said, you have so many other things to say. Oh, my gosh, I'm talking about he was 43 when he passed away. I think he.
Guido: Lived many lifetimes in those 43 years.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: I know I can only imagine lived to be 93. But, uh, when, uh, I was doing the tribute, the 20th year tribute, I looked in this drawer and there was a cassette tape from 87 and I was like, how the heck did that get in there? And I luckily had a walkman. I don't know how the heck I still want to Walk. And I put it in and it was queued up to this. He wrote songs too. So he played guitar and he wrote songs and it was queued up to this song called The Secret Life of Dying Twice. And I was like, that's exactly what he did. And, uh, it was so fun to hear his voice and hear him singing. And I went to sleep, and then I woke up and I wrote the second part of it. I wasn't in the plan. I, uh, meant to live as long as stand part of it. And then I sang it at the tribute. But I piped his voice into the hall.
Guido: Oh, my gosh.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: Wow. They could hear him. It was riveting. Uh, I don't know why. The reason why I have the ashes I have now is because after the first printing of Squadron Supreme that I put them into, they wanted more ash. And I was like, okay, I'll see if I can find some. And I went to the warehouse. I couldn't find him. And I was like, I don't want to go in. And I found him because I went back, and he was right where I thought it would be. So he was hiding on them, because I think I fulfilled that wish. And now I wouldn't have to do the ashograph with if I had given them all away to marble. And maybe in his infinite wisdom, which is now infinite, he knew that at some point in time, he would plant the astrograph idea in my head.
Guido: Yeah, I believe that.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: Uh, and make that happen. Uh, so it's very funny that I still have I just did an interview with somebody about relationships, and I still have a relationship with him. That it's just different. I mean, I don't see him and I can't touch him and kiss him and, uh, spend the kind of time we had. But I am his legacy advocate. And I felt that title, and I take it very seriously. And, um, I think we have some more, um, things to happen that I can't wait to see what's going to emerge. And new, um, things will be released. Maybe Serpent Society. Maybe Squadron Supreme will be a movie. Who knows?
Guido: Yeah, sure.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: But his DNA, his fingerprint is in everything. And I see that it is. And having people like you and, um, his fans who inform me about that, uh, no matter what, it just fueled me, because he used to say to me, I can't imagine having an insignificant life. And I was like, God, that's exactly what he did. He made it so that his life was significant while he was living it. But then, um, posthumously, too. And if he chose me for that purpose, then I guess I was assigned the task, and I'm trying to live up to it. And, you know, m people like yours is just great, because it's like, I don't know what I'm doing. But I do.
Speaker D: You are doing it.
Guido: You are, and you're doing it beautifully. And we've taken a lot of your time. So as we wrap up, I think this whole conversation has been a clear indicator of Mark's legacy. But I'm curious how you'd summarize what it is about his legacy that you want everyone to hold onto.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: Uh, that no matter how, uh, you approach life, should be allinclusive and should really matter, uh, the people in your life that you work with. That if you're lucky enough to find a profession that used to be a hobby and that you now dedicate yourself to go whole hog with it and just include yourself and everything. Meet people, talk it up, and, um, connect, because Mark was a connector, and, um, it's all about that connecting. And he just enjoyed, um, got a kick out of what people brought to the table and how to pull, um, that out of them and mold that into something that was valuable to him and them. And I just think if we can strive to do that and, uh, really, um, I never hear a bad word about him, and I also never heard him say a bad word about anybody. And, um, I mean, he had people that annoyed him, but, uh, he didn't ever use the word hate. So I think that using that to kind of approach how you need to leave a significant leave an indelible mark on how you do that, uh, that's one of the things I've learned so much from him, just how he operated in approaching, uh, my work like that, um, has given me. I run my backstage like a bullpen. I don't care. You got an idea, tell me. Tell me the idea. I will incorporate if I can't. Tell me. And so I learned so much about that and the kindness and tolerance and compassion, but also, um, finding something you're really interested in is truly a gift. Uh, I'm so, uh, happy that he I saw his storyboards when he was five years old. So, believe me, he became exactly what he needed to be, and we're all the better for it. We are all the better for it. Uh, yes. And as Stan would say, excelsior.
Guido: Yeah. This has been amazing. I hope that you'll join us again for more conversations and more stories, because I think this could we, uh, could take any piece of our conversation and probably spend hours on that piece of who he was and who you are and the work that you're doing, building on the work that he did. So thank you for your time, and we appreciate it so much.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: Thank you for such insightful questions and, uh, for really delving deep into what makes Mark pick. So you need questions that a lot of people don't ask, and I really commend you on that. It's very interesting.
Guido: Thank you.
Speaker D: Thank you.
Catherine Schuller Gruenwald: Yeah. So there we have it. We've come to the end of our rope.
Guido: All right, that is a wrap. And wow, that was really special. Dear Watchers, thank you for joining us on this really special episode, I have.
Rob: Been Guido and I have been rob. And you can find cat's work with cosplay runway on instagram and Facebook as at cosmoda C-O-S-M-O-D-A. Thank you, or@cosplayrunway.com. And we'll, of course include those links in the show notes. And you can also often find cats celebrating Mark's legacy on panels at comiccons throughout the world. So check your local listings because you are not going to want to miss one of those panels. We went to one at New York comic con, and it was a blast with tons of legends, including cat herself.
Guido: And if you just finished the abridge uh, episode, make sure you consider joining us@dearwatchers.com. Click join, become a patron, and you can get the full expanded version. And as you just wrapped up the expanded version, we hope you enjoyed it. Please let us know anywhere on social media that you are. We probably are at dear watchers. So again, thank, uh, you, Cat. Thank you, listeners, for joining us.
Rob: Please leave a review wherever you listen. We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.
Guido: In the meantime, in the words of OATU, keep pondering the possibilities.