Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Rob: Welcome to Dear Watchers in Omniversal comic book podcast, where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.
Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up the omniverse, uh, of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey continue.
Rob: To be me Guido and Me Rob, and an extra very special guest you will meet in a few moments. And if you are listening to us for the first time, well, welcome. We are here to be your guides yay through fictional realities. And we love talking to those people who create those other worlds and sharing that with all of you.
Guido: And so today is someone that we have mentioned in the credits countless times on our episodes. So over the course of our 90 episodes, we have said, uh, Janice Chiang's name I don't even know dozens of times, because Janice is a letterer with over 2000 credits and over 40 years in the comic book industry, she's a legend. We do a full intro with her when we get into the conversation with her. But we wanted to start with thinking about what our biggest takeaways from this conversation now that we've had a chance to reflect after we recorded with her. So, Rob, why don't you start? What's something that you're going to keep thinking about in our conversation with legend Janice Chiang?
Rob: Well, it's funny because a letter, you just think of someone sitting there at the computer or in the old way, huh, with paper doing the lettering. And maybe it's not the most physical thing, but I love that Janice actually talked about the need for exercise because it can be so strenuous when you're sitting there doing this over and over. And she's often working on so many books. And I also think it speaks to her longevity, where she's keeping her instrument, her body in this condition to do this very meticulous work. So much so that had not been something I had really thought of.
Guido: It's not even just her body, uh, something that stood out to me. And this isn't the point that I was going to identify in this, uh, opening, but I will mention her whole outlook is so positive. She has such a positive approach to work and life and has a lot of wisdom and insight and thoughtfulness. And I think that exercise probably, I know, relates to that a healthy body, healthy mind, and you need to get moving. And she talks a bit about gardening as an activity. So it's not just her body, it's her mind. And she has such a healthy outlook. It was kind of an inspiration to hear how positive her approach was to her work and to her life. And I want to embody some of that. I know, yeah, I was making me.
Rob: Think all those times when she was talking about gardening and also the activism work that she was doing, those times away from your work I would imagine also helps that creativity. We know that sometimes when you're just doing the task over and over again, that's not really the most productive thing. So I think taking that step away, that breath, probably actually increases her creative mind.
Guido: Yeah. And in terms of her work and the creation she does in her work, I think you and I made a conscious decision when we started the show from the very first episode, to mention every credit on the comic. And of course, for many years, not everyone was credited. There were years when no one was credited, and then as credits started getting added, they were pretty restricted to the penciller or main artist and the writer. And then slowly, over the years, finally we're at a place where everyone who's working on the creative side of the comic is getting credited. Now, of course, production side is not getting credited, and we actually talk about that with Janice. But, uh, in terms of her work, I think something that I keep thinking about is how the pacing of a comic is controlled and the experience we have as readers in the pacing, and that The Letterer actually has a lot to do with that. So obviously the panel breakdowns, the story breakdown, both of those things are creating a sense of pacing. But Janice had a few points she made about the way she constructs word balloons or what she chooses to fit in, or how she chooses to fit it in, and thinking about the font and what goes in there, and that it had to do with pacing. And it just made me realize that something I think anyone who loves comics, one of the features of sequential art we love is the controlled pacing. Unlike, let's say, a novel or a movie. A novel, you have total control over the pacing. Right? No one is directing your pacing of that. And then a movie, you have no control over the pacing other than pausing it. Comics are that nice hybrid where the artists and the creators are constructing a pace for us, but we have some agency and control over how fast we turn the page, how fast we go from panel to panel. And so it was really interesting to start thinking about the Letterer's role in that, because I think often we don't realize the way the Letterer is contributing to our experience of the book.
Rob: Mhm, yeah, and I for one, had no idea that the Letter was often placing those word balloons and also helping construct the layouts as well and all that stuff. I think Letterer, it's a, uh, title that we see all the time in comics, but I for one, didn't know everything that went into it, and also everything that has chianged over time as it's moved to digital. And that's the fascinating thing about Janice's career, is she's seen that entire arc in terms of the actual work that goes into it. And how that role has chianged and how the comics industry has really chianged as well.
Guido: Yeah. Well, let's get into that conversation.
Rob: Mhm. And with that, welcome to episode 91, and let's check out what's happening in the multiverse with today's conversation.
Rob: We have an extra special guest that we are very excited to talk to, the artist, writer, and creator, Janice Chiang. Hi, Janice.
Janice Chiang: Hey, how are you doing? Thank you for inviting me to your.
Guido: Oh, thank you for joining us. We appreciate your time so much.
Rob: Um, we make sure whenever we're covering a comic on this show to list out all the credits. We always make sure we're including the letterer. And your name has come up so many times on our nearly 100 episodes.
Janice Chiang: We've covered a lot of what if. So your name is there an awful lot. Yes, I know. It's sort of like I started when I was 19 years old, um, in Neil Adams studio, and Larry Hammer and Ralph Reese were my mentors in terms of teaching me the skills of hand lettering. So that was 1974, 2023. It's almost like eight years. Is that right? That's crazy, isn't it?
Guido: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Wow. We're going to have to have a major celebration of your 50th work anniversary next year, and I'm excited to help plan it.
Janice Chiang: Yeah.
Rob: Someone can read all the books you've lettered, and basically, that's all they'll do every single day is just read all your books.
Janice Chiang: Oh, my God.
Rob: I don't think they could ever get through it.
Janice Chiang: Right. What's really sweet, um, in terms of working with Marvel, after the Elago studio, um, I went to Marvel to work, uh, in production, in house, on the staff. So I only last there, like, maybe six months or so, because at that time, I wasn't really ready to settle down to an office job. So, anyway, during that time, I got to let her one issue a death lock and issue a black panther, um, that was drawn by Billy Graham and written by Don McGregor. So when the movie came out in 2018, they had done an, ah, article about, uh, Billy Graham. Uh, when I was in office, they said, oh, this is Billy Graham. I thought, oh, that's not Billy Graham to tell evangelist right.
Guido: The Reverend Billy Graham.
Janice Chiang: Anyway, there was an article about him in The New York Times, and then they put the COVID of the title page that I had lettered, and, uh, I'm pretty sure he did the layout. Billy Graham and I went in and inked the lettering. And, uh, what was funny was I remember looking at the layout of the art and I said, the main caption should have perspective. It should go this way. But then up to then, I've never seen any captions but were squared off, like rectangles. So I said, oh, I might get in trouble, but I think we need to shoot the energy that way. So I saw that caption, Shay. I said, I think I lettered that. And of course, on the bottom, there were stones with the credits, and I saw my name. Yes, I like to say I've been in Wakanda since 1975. I'm waiting for everybody to show up.
Guido: Yes.
Janice Chiang: That's what's great about, um, working in our industry. Hit the time travel. Um, basically when I work, I'm all digital now. It's like a 2D world, you know, so you're so focused. You know, you're you're in the storyline, you're trying to hear the voices of the characters by their actions, actually, literally, what they're talking about, and the art directions. So that's part of the lettering process. I read everything that's given to me, so I get a sense of time and place and a style. So, um, that's why I have no favorite, because it's like, what am I working on? Devote my full attention. And I always say to myself, the worst thing when somebody trusts you with the art they're writing, and you're the editors, are depending on you, the worst thing is to be asleep at the wheel, not give it you all because, um, you see how beautiful the artists are, uh, creating now. And my background is in fine arts. I can tell what goes in there. People give up a lot to put it into our, uh, stories. Sometimes I step back and I said, this is a little bit insanity. Washing all those things in a little panels. That's one of the secrets. You have to be partly insane to work it out industry.
Guido: Well, before we get further into your insanity and why you're an icon, uh, I do want to step back and share with our listeners some background on you, and please correct anything. But I want to share because, again, I think you're extraordinary. And the work that you've touched is so important because you have, as we just established, over 40 years in the business, close to 50, and have had a significant impact on at least a title that I think every comic fan has read. Because you have worked on over 2000 books, and I wish someone would get yes, it's incredible, and I wish we could get an exact count, because, my gosh, uh, the internet, I'm working on.
Janice Chiang: So many right now that's always adding to that number.
Guido: I know it's growing exponentially. So Janice is a letterer, and you've primarily worked through Marvel starting in the early 1980s, the 70s into the you've worked on thousands of issues just for Marvel, including Iron Man, Ghostwriter, Alpha, Flight, Conan, Defenders, KHAZAR, Rom, Thor, Shangchi, Quasar, and of course, one of the books that was an inspiration for our show, What If. And, uh, you also edited an issue, at least one issue at Marvel. I don't even know if you'll remember this, but one of the Clive Barker superhero books, Hokum, and hex there was a story that you edited that was in the early 90s.
Janice Chiang: Um, somebody thought they would, uh, do me a favor and show a little diversity.
Guido: Could be.
Janice Chiang: One thing with lettering is like, you don't have editorial control. Um, this was an issue when I lettered the silent issue for GI. Joe.
Guido: Yes. Larry hamas. Really famous issue. Yeah.
Janice Chiang: So, you know, I did let I did rule reporters. I did let her Stanley presents. I let her the title. I let her the caption to set the action. I let her the credits, and I let her the end.
Guido: Um, it's amazing. And that issue is iconic, and I'm glad you're a part of it. Um, outside of Marvel, though, I mean, you've worked for so many companies. Stanley's POW. Dark Horse. Tokyo.
Janice Chiang: Pop.
Guido: Archie. I think every company there ever was that ever wrote a comic or will in the future, I think you've worked for them. And, of course, done a ton of work for DC. Including all the superhero girls book series, some early milestone books, some recent milestone books, some Batman titles, impulse, Superman, recently the Lazarus planet one shots from the big event at DC. Um, and then Storm King, which we were just talking about. So Sandy King Carpenter's imprint with John Carpenter. Anthologies that come out every year. A lot of books for kids, horror books, Sci-Fi books. You've done most, if not all, of their lettering, and just commented that the ten year anniversary is coming up. There's been over 120 books, and one of them is, in fact, nominated for the four word indie award, along with another of your graphic novels. So you are on a hot streak, janice.
Janice Chiang: Turning out really well for me.
Guido: And that's not all. I mean, you also identify in some of your interviews that I read through as a community organizer for many years, and we've seen you on a few panels. You just have an awesome insight into history and into identity and representation. And we're so excited to have you here. So thank you for joining us.
Janice Chiang: Thank you. Um, what would you like me to speak about?
Rob: You were mentioning that you were coming from a fine art background, and then you started working with these legends of the comics industry. So I'm curious, how did you get into comics coming from the fine art world?
Janice Chiang: Well, it was all connected to, um well, my older sister, Faye Chiang was a founder of Basement Workshop, like a cultural, uh, nonprofit organization in Chinatown. And Larry Hama was one of the founders, too. So they all met around, um, protesting the Vietnam War, because basically every night you turned on the news, they were killing people like us, uh, without impunity. Um, so a lot of the students organized on campuses to protest in Washington, DC. And also to struggle for third world studies, put in those missing chapters American history that we contribute to greatly. So it was a twofold thing. And then the next evolution was going out back in our communities, because if you study immigration laws, in 1883, the Chinese anti immigration law was enacted where we couldn't come over, women couldn't come over unless they were wives of, uh, bankers or I guess they were prostitutes. Brought over. But everyday people who work, they couldn't start families because they didn't want us to get a foothold in. So what was created was a paper sun system where family members would sponsor each other. And I've seen books where at Ellis Island or Angel Island, where they would interview the immigrants, they were very specific about, um, belonging to the family. They would say, well, what does your house look like? Uh, is there a courtyard? How much land do you own? How many animals? How many people? It was very thorough, and it was sort of hard to lie your way through. But, um, that chianged a little during World War II, because, uh, my husband Danny and my father had served in the American Army during the war. So after the war, um, they allowed the servicemen to bring a war bride over, go to China and seek a bride. But the thing about our culture, all marriages were arranged. Um, yeah, that was interesting. So I tell people, my husband and I were the first generation where we chose each other. Nobody puts us together. So I met my husband, uh, down Chinatown, where we were doing community organizing. So they kept putting us together because we had an art background. So we do the flyers, posters, newsletters, you name it. So what will be covered by social media now, back then, can physically do. So it was a great learning period for me, because, you know, being that there were hardly any, you know, Asians in this country before, um, the larger immigration flow, uh, during the Kennedy administration, it was a big deal to have a community to go to. So when we were in Chinatown, we picked up struggles like, um, for more employment for the community members, better education. People got on the school board, and, uh, eventually a couple people entered mainstream politics to affect chiange. So, um, for me, that was like a big learning period about the big world, because up to that, I was a student. And when you go to school, they always say you're the cream of the crop. You don't mingle with stuff like that. And it's like, uh, let me go check the riff rap. I have to tell you, some of these academias are a little too sheltered. So when I went in Wide World, I discovered the majority of people are kind, and if you need help, if they could give you advice, they would. And, um, the past administration, I'm so saddened with the publicization of everyone, because I think the news just shows the worst of human nature. So we really have to counteract that in our personal relationships and our public relationships. So I think in the comic industry, we're really fighting in our community to be inclusive. And I want to go back to my, uh, Marvel years, because we were in Manhattan. Marvel right. It's a metropolitan city, so a lot of us grew up um, in the five boroughs. And we came to understand that there's people of all types, and you get along. You have to share the public school system, the public transportation system. And, uh, I tell everyone, yeah, St. Patrick's Day, chinese people with corn beef, too. We eat each other's food. And this is a great introduction to a culture who doesn't eat. When I was at Marvel, the diversity and inclusion was greater than it evolved in the later years of industry, especially when you get the comics gate and bullshit like that. Um, basically, when you were at Marvel, if you do the job, you got the job. If you could fight for the team and get us to the finish line you were on there wasn't like, because you're a woman, you can't do it. It's like, yeah, I'm going out letter you. Come on. And you did exactly you didn't know it. That's another thing. If I meet somebody and they're like, not nice, it's like, okay, you save me time. I'm not trying to know you, because no matter how I sing or dance, you're not going to like me. That's a secret longevity. Don't swallow negative energy. And, um, I love what my dad used to say to us. He, uh, said, Live and let live. You can't control the world, but you can control who you are and what you do, and be the best you can. I think that saved me a lot of, uh, grief and heartache, saying that somebody's disappointed me and why don't they like me? It's like, well, whatever.
Guido: Go find something. So how did the Larry connection, how did it bring you to Marvel then?
Janice Chiang: Okay, so, uh, what happened was Larry and Ralph taught me the basics. And, um, after I went through the period of community organizing, my son was born. Um, he was like, okay, how are we going to raise? We're holding the baby. How are we going to raise? Okay, I'll go back and try lettering. So luckily, Danny Krispy was still heading the bullpen. And a lot of my older mentors, like, uh, Maury Kuramoto, Jack Abel, and the group of guys there that in the Bolton Forever were still there. So they remembered me and gave, uh, me a chance. And I was so lucky. Louise Simonson was the editor there that time, so oh, my God, a woman. Thank God Larry was there also. Um, and then Tom Defalco was with Ralph Macchio. Uh, and Danny O'Neill had another assistant. Oh, maybe it's a Bobienski, something like that. A lot of the, uh, assistant editors who came, my editors were there. So we all worked together and got the books out and stuff. So it was really funny as a segue. When I finally got to meet Stanley in 2016, like, actually meet and spend time with him, it was like, at conventions, I would see him, like, hey, Span. And then when I started doing, um, the spiderman strips, right. Um, I thought, okay, I'll go and say hello to him when he's at New York Comic Con in San Diego. So every time he had a panel, I check what time he'd show up. I go there, and his handlers were, like just would hustle him just for security reasons. Um, Joseph was the anchor on the Spiderman, uh, strips, and it was funny. This is like jumping again. The period when, uh, hand lettering went digital, they tried to get rid of the hand letters. Basically, nobody taught me the skill other than my friend John Babcock. He showed me how to use programs, so that way I had my own fonts. I got off my services. The line companies had their own internal lettering requirements established, like DC Comics, um, Dark Horse, uh, Idw Boom. They use their own people. So it was really hard, like, trying to navigate until I got more work. But, um, when I started lettering, um, the Spider Man strip, and I said to myself, I'm back. Look, we have the two original creators still on that strip. I said, Go get that crowbar. You don't get rid of me. That's on my Facebook page. It's me with fan. But Joseph was wonderful in terms of encouraging, and yeah, uh, I've had a lot of really great friends in the industry and out that always supported me. And that's why I say the majority of people are more kind than evil. When you meet evil people, they test your metal. It's a good way to, um, understand a different way to navigate. And this is an analogy I always use. I said, we are the diamonds. Every time you're struck with a positive or negative experience, you shine brighter if you understand what that lesson is and not take it personally. Because when you meet people, you could feel energy from them, and the people are able to put out. It's like they've been through a lot of experience that they summarize and move forward on. So, um, yeah, those are the people you get attracted to. It's like, oh, they look interesting. You could spend well.
Guido: And I know you were close to Joe Senate, and I have to tell you a story. We were at his 95th birthday retirement party. And I remember this was before Rob and I had started the podcast, and they had the great exhibit up in the Socrates Historical Society. And you came in, and you were looking at some pages, and someone was talking to you and said your name. And I said to Rob, I was like, oh, my God, that's Janice Chiang. I was totally fanboying out. We didn't say hello to you at that point. We didn't meet you until last year's Comic Con. But I was really excited because I was like, I'm in the presence of royalty. So it was very cool.
Janice Chiang: Um, we, uh, had this big Marvel party before the big layoffs in the early ninety s at the I think was it grand Hyatt or something? It was crazy. It was like, um, when Marvel, uh, bought Flair trading cards. Bubblegum and trading cards. But there was a baseball strike that year, so that was totally flopped. I met this other letter who starred before me, and he said, oh, it's Jazz Jag, you're not a white haired old lady. I said, uh, so 90, 93 being not discoverable until when I was trying to fight back in the industry. It's like, yeah, I have to show that I'm alive, then I'm going to kicking.
Guido: Well, I want to talk about that transition you've seen in the industry because you've been in it so long. So I guess my first question would be if you could talk a bit about how lettering worked and how you worked before digital. What was the process? What was your collaboration with the writers or the artists or the editorial team like?
Janice Chiang: Well, because the lettering was part of the art, you couldn't chiange it. It's like digital lettering. You toss out the balloon of the layer and then come back in and edit. So basically we got finally final edited scripts. A lot of times, uh, the process was the writer would confer with the editor to figure out the characters, draw your line, and then the, um, writer would go home and write, um, art directions and the speaking copy. And they would actually give us balloon placements on the pencil of art. So they would have an understanding how much copy would fit where and how we flow. Because once we got it down, it's like, it's hard to dig it out of the paper. Unless when a book was late, we would let her on Vellum, which is like a thick tracing paper, and they would cut it out and rub it, cement it. That's why when you see old comic pages, you see.
Guido: Yellow, brown, stained yeah, adhesive residue.
Janice Chiang: Exactly. That's where the balloons are pasted down because the book was late. Um, anyway, my process is very physical, right. Once you get the pages, I was responsible for ruling the panel borders. And then I would take Ames guide to rule pencil lines to letter the copy and draw the sound effects. The guide was just used for the inside the balloon copyright captions. But the rest was like freehand M drawing, basically. Um, yeah, it was a real bear to work with me. He has a mind of its own, so you have to be respectful.
Rob: In the pre digital age, how long would it take you to do an average book?
Janice Chiang: Well, it depends on the amount of copy. Right. The first book I did for Louise was, uh, Conan the Barbarian. It was drawn by John B. SEMA, who was like, oh my god, the Renaissance artist. Why don't you give me that for her first book. And I ruled the lines and I took my pencil and I penciled the lettering and I came back and inked it. So it took me 2 hours of page and I said, oh, this is not going to work. The next job I just like bit my tongue and just put it right on. And then we had this uh, stuff called for corrections, snowpake or it's descendant, um, whiteout. So make a mistake with the words of grammar or whatever, it could be corrected. And in house, in the bullpen, they would do the lettering, corrections, um, that came in. Or if there was like really they had to chiange a copy to make the story make sense, they would go in. But a lot of times they would try not to because it's a complete piece of art. Um, yeah. So how long take a book? It depends on the copy. And if it's really light page, I would say, oh, a nap time page. I could go to the gym and come back and do that what, um, I did for myself, which was great. And my husband was like we started weight training in a gym going on 42 years now because I was sitting like so many hours and I said, darn, if I look, I'm going to look like a bowling ball. Bowling. So that's not going to happen. When my son was in grade, uh, school, we'd go, when he was in school, to go train so I could sit still. He goes by nature I'm very energetic, so it really takes like another thing I learned, um, in school, it's like uh, in high school I took all the art classes. That was my major. Uh, what I would do is I would do my academic work first, get that out of the way and do the fun stuff afterwards. And what I learned was to um, not observe the hours in a day, but link it like bridge hours. So sometimes in the beginning I get up like four in the morning, work until like nine, take a break and then uh, go out and then come back and start again.
Guido: Wow, quite a schedule.
Janice Chiang: You talk to any freelancers, they learn how to chop time. They learn to sleep when they can sleep. But now pretty much I could uh, except for tight deadlines, I could pretty much have a regular day where it's not crazy. It's like if I have to stay up to midnight or pass, I have to take a nap. Yeah, you got to lay flat or spine or back is going to be wrecked. But really fortunate. I haven't had any pain or problems and I think it was in training. It's like mhm, you use your body for what it needs to do. And days when I don't go in the gym, I try to walk 5 miles at least. Yeah, that's part of the secret of longevity. Take care of yourself, mhm. Yeah.
Guido: And especially, like you said at a desk, and especially at the time doing it by hand. I've heard a lot of interviews with people who talked about the way that affected their back or even their hand and the carpal tunnel syndrome that would happen from the grip and all that.
Janice Chiang: Well, yeah, Ralph. Great. Reese gave me a great idea. I'm m a great tip. Um, when I started, he said, always keep your feet flat on the floor. Line yourself. Don't be lopsided and stuff. Because I'm a strange, uh, letter. Because I let her on a flat surface. Everyone has no, unfortunately, that you put on a flat. But when I started learning comics, um, to letter comics, all I had was a flat board that I put on my mom's kitchen table to use the T square with. And I just got used to it. And then my husband buys me drawing tables flat. His is angled tables, angles. I get the job done.
Guido: And so, in that era of doing it by hand, how did it work? Were you setting the position of the caption boxes and speech bubbles? Would it depend on the editor or the artist? Was the artist setting the position? How did it work generally, when you were doing that work for Marvel, either.
Janice Chiang: The editor or the writer would place, uh, the balloons. But when I actually got down to lettering, sometimes there's too much copy in a balloon to fit in that space. I have to cut it. A girl is going to be missing her head. Trust me with that judgment. Because the main thing is that what I do is, like, serve the story, serve the reader, that the logical, um, placement of balloons and sound effects will give the best read. Um, a lot of times, if it's just too big, I could tell it's a little big, I'd better cut it and still be legible.
Guido: So then, moving to digital, what was that process like, and what does your work look like now in the post digital era? I think before we started recording, you shared a little bit about the custom font that you've developed. So how did you make that transition and what does your work look like now?
Janice Chiang: So, um, what it was was, um, a lot of hand letters. Uh, some of us took our font designs and translated it digitally so that we go letter with it. In Illustrator, unfortunately, I had four people steal my letter forms and make fonts.
Guido: Oh, my gosh.
Janice Chiang: And this is so, um, sympathetic to what's going on now with AI art. That's really scary. And this happened to me in early 19 94, 95. So I had to live with that thing of, like, somebody stealing your work and making money off of it since then. So it's like, welcome to the unwelcome club. But what I do with my work is specific to how I understand comic lettering, because what I try to do with my digital lettering is have it as organic as if it was hand lettering. So I feel most comfortable with the fonts that I design, like my regular speaking balloons and my sound effect fonts. Uh, so with Sandy, it's all my original work. You'll see nothing like that unless I'm giving free rein on a project to let her that way. So the recent issue of Duo and, um, the monkey prints for DC well, actually, with DC Superhero Girls, it's like a hybrid. We have, like, approved fonts that, um, they want us to use at DC. Like, fine, okay. But the sound effects so I use my own fonts to do the sound effects. So, um, yeah, the monkey prince was really interesting. Gene Luan Yang is a writer on that series. Bernard Chiang is the main artist, and, um, Sebastian Chiang was the main colorist. And it was so beautiful. It was so tricky because Bernard is very detailed and Gene is very specific with his writing. So have it go and not mar the art or disrupt the, um, dialogue. It was a challenge, but it was fun.
Guido: And you'd worked with him on Superman Smashes the Clan, too, right?
Janice Chiang: Yeah. Another award winning book. Gene got two Einstein's for that. Um, for something adapted and for best graphic novel or something, I don't know. Gene's phenomenal.
Rob: Would most of those collaborators give you kind of free rein, you know, best, or are they giving you also, hey, this is what I think here. How does that kind of sense of collaboration work with them?
Janice Chiang: Duo. I had balloon placements because, um, the two characters, Kelly and David, um, would go from, uh, actually speaking to Telepathy. Telepathic.
Guido: Um, I love that book, by the way.
Janice Chiang: Oh, really? You like yeah. Oh, my God. That was like yeah.
Guido: I love I love Greg pack. And it was a cool origin story, and it was really interesting having these two characters inhabit one body.
Janice Chiang: Uh, there's a trade paperback now. It was put all together. They just released it. Jim Chadwick started us off on the series in 2016. And then finally, we were able to bring to fruition with Andrea, uh, Shea. Um, she's our editor on that. So Andrea gave me balloons to well, actually, Greg no, both of them. So Greg would tell me in the script, this is Telepathic, this is regular. And then Andrea helped me lay it out because, uh, yeah, those balloons are almost complicated as a Ghost Rider balloon. If you look, then I had to mask certain parts. It's like, oh, um, you know what masking M is like when you cut out certain parts and not show say somebody's arm is here, and you want to put, like, a pointer under it so you wouldn't have the pointer to go under. So my son came over and said, well, how do you mask an illustrator? So whenever I ask a question, he always sends me a video. I'm very glad in instructions. So he comes home and shows me. So then, um, someone else gave me clue. Todd Klein said, oh, you just do that? And it's like, I understand masking. I've done, like, handcut, uh, stencil silk screening and photo silk screen for my protest posters. I know what positive and negative is, but what people didn't tell me was, I ungroup the letters. Not going to get what you want. And then I realized, huh, this is a complicated balloon that should be on its own layer. So nobody tells you those things. It's like the reason why I keep doing it, number one, is, um, I love the collaboration with our creators. Everyone up and down the line, and the editors, I don't know how they put up with us, but we all have angel wings or halos by now. Um, yeah, that we're doing something new. This new territory. People enjoy it. And this goes to the diversity that we're seeing now. Characters and creators. It feels like Marvel in the 80s. This is the way it should be. I mean, that was always stressed by Stanley and anybody in the company. We welcome diversity because we're stronger together than apart. Simple as that. Um, that's what makes it exciting. Like discovering, oh, that's how you mask. Let me show you how to mask. Is that how you do it? Okay, let me put my spin on it. So, for, um, me to work with my own fonts, it's like evolution of understanding, uh, an art form. I want my work to be calligraphic art, like versus mechanical. Um, like just stamped out, not really playing with the letter forms themselves, because it is artwork. I guess you get a better feel when you see it directly in hand lettering, how it's part of the art. Um, but, um, I think we need to bring that back to digital lettering more. So sometimes I get upset when people shoot a point in somebody's head or in bad parts. It appears to be a stylistic choice, but it just interrupts the flow of the M story. It's more disruptive than helpful if somebody has, like, an awkward sound effect. Okay. But I can only do what I do. Like my dad said, live and let live. But that's just my opinion.
Guido: Well, I saw you talked, uh, in an interview once, I think maybe last year, for Lettering Day, which I only discovered was a thing when I was researching for this episode. I saw an interview and you talked a little bit about the way comics as a medium is similar to filmmaking in terms of how collaborative it is, how many people there are who are in charge of certain layers of the project. And I think that's something Rob and I have always loved in talking to people like you, is seeing all the different ways that people contribute to this art form. And with comics, I almost think a little bit more than movies at least in recent years, all the collaborators are more visible since the major publishers have started putting letters and inkers and colorists on the COVID of the book. I love that, and I'm glad that people are seeing those names all the time.
Rob: I think it's getting rid of the autore theory of film.
Janice Chiang: Genius, who's usually.
Rob: A white, cisgendered male person who's like, oh, they're the genius, but, oh, no.
Janice Chiang: There'S actually a huge full of people behind you. I will say, you know, even though I appear on the credit line, there's, like, 75 to 100 people behind us who are, like, propping us up.
Rob: Totally.
Janice Chiang: The marketers, the digital production department, pre press, all the people who are not named that we have to be grateful for, because we would be nothing without them. Um, it's hard when, uh, we owe behind the scenes, and you do everything really well, but people don't know about you. So the people on the credit line should speak about our support system. Um, I've been really fortunate in terms of the different companies I worked with that yeah, the system has been intact to, you know, move out projects forward and such. So, um yeah. Um, okay, ask me another question.
Rob: Over time, too, have you let me run on no, we love it. Over time, have you seen greater diversity in those people that are behind the credit line or on the credit line? Like, you were mentioning, of course, that we're seeing more diversity on the page, which is amazing, too. But what about those creators and the people behind the creators? How has that chianged since the time when you were one of the only women in the office, one of the only non white people in the office? How has that chianged?
Janice Chiang: Well, um, when I was trying to get back in the industry, between 2000 to, I guess, 2009 and eight, there was almost like a decade of fallowness. So, basically, what I did was learn new skills. I went to Parsons Art, uh, school, take some courses, uh, on, um, Illustrator, Photoshop. And basically, I knew the program enough for what I needed to do. But in a classroom, people ask questions that you don't have, and that's another way of learning. So I did that, and I read more books. I read philosophy. I started gardening. I'm great at digging holes. You know, how rocky. So that's a good workout, right. But what I learned when digging is, like, if you have three corners of a stone, you're mine to find the three corners, you're popping out. Um, that's really good, uh, exercise and therapy. Right. Contemplation time. How do I figure this rock out of the soil? Um, yeah, I bake a lot. What I couldn't do while I was sitting lettering, um, nonstop during the boom years, I did that instead. And I think that contributed to my longevity, because I didn't get burnt out by it when I was reading some Chinese history. My family name means a general in the army. So I read this section where they said, oh yeah, the generals will be sent down on campaigns in terms of expansion, conquering Nomads or whatever, or putting, uh, um, out of control clans under the Empress thumb. But when they retired, they pursued a life of art calligraphy, um, the Garden, raising the garden. So I said, oh, well, I guess I'm getting this in the middle of my career and do these other things, enrichment things. So then you don't know the strength of it. All I knew was, like, crying is not going to help really bad. So you need to move forward with something. Uh, yeah, that was interesting.
Guido: And so you've had all these incredible collaborations. I'm curious, have you had the opportunity to collaborate with Larry in recent times, with Larry Hama? Because you cited him as one of your mentors. And then I'm also curious how your collaboration with Sandy King Carpenter came about and how you started working with them.
Janice Chiang: So, with Larry, he does my battery drain. Um, I had, uh, lended this graphic novel, uh, written by Larry and drawn by, uh oh my God, I just blanked that Mark Bright for independent clients. So outside the industry, there's like, clients who have story ideas that want graphic novels. And, uh, now then I'll take it on. But like, right now I'm really busy, so I can't, uh larry's really great. He's always pitching stuff that if I need work, I'll pick it up. If not, so he's like a big brother to me. I met him, uh, like, 13 or so through my sister. I've been really lucky to have him and Ralph like big brothers. And yeah, a lot of people in industries have been great mentors to me, like Joe Stanton and his wife Hillary, you, uh, name it. Everyone's been kind. Um, so anyway, how I connected with Sandy was, um, this goes back to Facebook. Uh, I'll get on the platform of Facebook and say, you saved my career. So what happened was not really, because when Facebook happened was, um, Steve Lucillato, uh, one of the colorists at Marvel organized Marvel Reunion, uh, back 2009, I believe. And he sent out like, two, uh, hundred and 50 invitations. And only 50 people couldn't come to the event because commitments and every time we meet up, they're still crying. They didn't make that reunion there. I got to meet, uh, up with other friends who were still in the industry. And then I started going to conventions to, um, see who was still there and make new contacts by Facebook. Um, during the reunion, Steve pulled us all onto Facebook, so we connected. So that's how I started seeing the feeds from different people and seeing what projects they were working on. And I would pitch myself, you need a letter. What happened was Leo Manko was the artist on the Silence series and that was the first series that Strunking Comics, um, published. So, um, I saw Leo was on Facebook, and I loaded his first book, uh, Werewolf by Knife.
Guido: Cool.
Janice Chiang: So usually you'd, um, see your first job, and I do this. This one staying. It's like, I don't know about this one. This one's got to improve. I don't know. The letter is critiqued the artwork when I look at it. But when I saw his, I was like, oh, my goodness, this is amazing. So, anyway, uh, I contacted Leo. We connected through Facebook. And then my son was working with David Wall at Radical Publishing. Uh, he moved out to La. So at Radical, um, Leo was doing a series, um, called Driver, uh, by Night. Somebody who drew a hearse around at night collecting. I don't know what he was doing. I didn't read it. But anyway, Leo was living in Argentina at the time, so David, uh, had him, uh, flown up to visit with the company, right? So then callan found out. He goes, oh, Leo's coming to visit us. I said, well, ethotor introduce yourself. You're my son. So then, uh, Callan said, Leo was so entertaining and using. And then when he stopped, he went over so low on James Chiang son, and he said, Leo jumped backwards. He said, what she had. I sent samples of my digital work to Leo. And then, uh, when the project came up for asylum, he recommended me to Sandy, and he said, I thought you two would get along really well. And then, uh, he was correct. Sandy is a dream person to work with, because once you hire, she trusts you. She hired you for what you can do. So she won't micromanage anyone, because part of creating is like trusting the people you work with and the team. So everyone's like, who's been in the comic industry, we pinch ourselves, like, can this be true? This is so wonderful. Because, um, what we do is we do speak up and down the credit line. If I have a suggestion about lettering, I run it by the writer. And my friend Neo, uh, Edmund we worked on Grimstown territory, storm Kids graphic novel. He said he was blown away, that I actually contacted him because in the Big Company is so regimented. Uh, you do pass it on or editor coordinates it, but with us, it's pretty thorough collaboration, um, in terms of, like, how do we make the best story and read for the fans and new readers? That's our mission statement, clear and simple. So I enjoy that freedom, being able to reach out, talk, um, to the co creators in our line. And our, uh, project manager, Sean Foxac is amazing. He does everything. He designs the books. I go to the printers. He's my main proof reader. It's like, Sean, if you are my safety net, I'd be drowning. Antoine does Anton, uh, Johnson does book, uh, trailers and both of them also manage the warehouse to get the books out. Oh, my goodness.
Rob: Every year at New York Comic Con, I get the tales from Halloween.
Janice Chiang: Comp.
Rob: And I was just even thinking now, because those are anthologies, your letters actually play such an important part because it gives that tone throughout all of them, because you have different artists, different writers, they're contributing. But I think a key to an anthology book, a horror anthology like that, is like, there still has to be something cohesive that's keeping it together of the same world. And your letters are actually playing such an important role in that.
Janice Chiang: That's how it's related to filmmaking being the silent soundtrack that we and what was really sweet, um, was a, um, series I did, uh, for Storming. I think it's a Civilians or something. Dwayne Swarzinski, the writer. So someone from Pullbox sorry, I forgot your name. I think it's Ryan from Pullbox. He wrote a really nice review. He said it's really difficult to do good lettering, successful lettering, where you're not disrupting the reader to pull them too hard. Because a lot of times, um, when I read the script and I look at the art, I have to see if it reflects what the art directions are. But it's chianged a little bit. I have to compensate somehow. So, like someone speaking softly, it's either I'll put um in Opacity to make it faded out, or I'll make it smaller so that you follow the rhythm of the story and the reader can do that. And what I like about Bolding in the captions and the balloon um, copy is that it forces the reader to slow down, to absorb it. Because what I feel about successful um lettering and storytelling and the, um, art for the story is that the reader gets to go back and forth. You'll pay attention to the balloon or caption copy, you'll look at the art, or vice versa the second time you come in. Because the amazing thing I know with Leo and a lot of artists is so detailed, you pick up something new every time, so it feels like a new experience. And, uh, I think that's wonderful. You get the bang for the bucks. It's worth it because it's pleasurable, it gives you escape, gives you, um, new ways of viewing things. Because a lot of people, um, I didn't attend conventions until I was trying to fight my way back. So a lot of people, fans, would come out and say, oh my God, you did Ghost Rider or whatever, and they would say, I was going through a difficult time in my life and I found Ghost Rider. And that made me have a different perspective on, um, where I was to move forward. So I hope our work moves people that way, that I identify with it and embrace it. And I think they do, because how do you explain so many people at conventions cosplay I remember when I started lettering coming out of Fine Arts, it was like, comics are like, uh, the uh, dark arts school is like, yeah, unless you went to the Cuban school, yeah, you better do comics. That stupid wall that academia puts up in front of, huh? We don't mingle with them. You know, it's like, same stuff. And the best artists come from Fine Arts background, like a really solid, you know, art background. There's no way you can fake it. Come on. You can see it when they make it. It's not that good. With the internet, now we have the pick of the whole world. That's what's exciting. Um, even though for me, it was like a little painful process to move into digital. And I have to give a shout out to Jim Starlin because he, uh, came back from San Diego, Comic Con, like 1993, and he said, oh my god, I saw this woman lettering by computer. So he said to me, you better jump on it. At that point I had like a full load. It's like, I'm going to drop that. So Jim, um, tried to start a digital, uh, lettering company in Woodstock and there was a little success. But meanwhile, Richard was building his lettering shop on the other side on the West Coast. So they were able to jump on that with my work propelling it.
Guido: But anyway, sadly.
Janice Chiang: Um, well, my role in lettering is not like I'm going to speed up every book, but whatever book I touch, um, I can contribute to what I understand about storytelling. And if it accumulates to 2000 books, so be it.
Guido: We are that much luckier for it. So thank you. And we had one last question for you and we talked about it before we recorded. I'm going to ask it even though you don't have an answer for us, which is just if you could imagine, uh, a what if, what would it be? Thinking about the work you've done. And I loved your answer, so I'm going to ask you to tell us what your answer was. When you think about the work you've.
Janice Chiang: Done, it's hard to choose any specific book or character. It's like asking your children which is your favorite child or which is your favorite font. Because I focus on the book, I'm working 100%. Everything is like in the tailwind, what I've done before. So now it's really funny because during New York Comcon, San Diego, I'll pick up a book, I lettered at, um, the Storm King, and I'm flipping and say, hey, this looks pretty good. But that's the feeling I have when I put it down and let it go mhm to final printing. It's like, this is what I think it should look like. And I, um, think it's correct, what I really learned. Well, um, doing Storm King work, it was really funny. When I started doing asylum, I would get, um, like pencils or inks. And, um, part of my thing is like, I would throw I throw neon colors in just to keep myself away from black and white. So Sandy said to me, I think we should chiange the color fill there. So I'm good friends with the color picker tool. I'm really good with, um, understanding the color design from the artists, picking the correct, um, huawei chroma. So that's something I learned. So for me, it's like every time I do a new story, I learn something. You learn something new to do every day. I use, um, espresso machine and I phone the milk, right? So you only have so much liquid coming for the coffee and so much for the phone. So I had a big revelation, uh, yesterday said, I'm going to foam the milk and I'm going to heat it in the microwave. That way I'm coming down with the coffee, which I want. Right? And I've always been that darn thing for like, uh, decades. So I'm open to learning something new every day. Yeah.
Guido: And always innovating appears repetitive.
Janice Chiang: There's always another way to do it. When I wake up, that's what I'm looking for every day. Something different, something new. Mhm? And I think of us, we must have like, 30 house plants and none of them die. Uh, when I met him in his apartment was like a jungle. Everything was alive. And I said, he can take care of me. Look, he's my.
Guido: Well, and the love and attention you bring to every project is also deeply connected, I'm sure, to why all the plants are alive.
Janice Chiang: It's wonderful. It's like, how can you not love life when you see it unfold in front of yourself? Mhm, that's why we live where we live. Because, um, you wake up, you hear the birds, and everything's new all the time. And you never get bored. If you look for it, you'll never get bored.
Guido: Well, that is such great wisdom. You've had so much advice. Your outlook on everything is so positive. Feels like the wrong word, because that feels so canned. Uh, you have such, like a gusto and a passion for just creativity, for life, for expression. And it shows in the commitment and the creativity you have in your work. So thank you.
Janice Chiang: Nothing half measure because it's not worth it, uh, for something. It won't be worth the victory. I'm suspicious. I don't think so.
Guido: And so, Janice, as we wrap up, if our listeners want to follow your work, what's the best way for them to do that? Where should they find you and follow you?
Janice Chiang: Well, you go to the stone King comics website. All our books, uh, are available there. Um, tell the truth. I have to Google myself, right? It has news. And a lot of times it'll be about, um, issues of Marvel Comics that they're going to use in a movie or recently published books. Um, you can reach me on instagram. The Janice Chiang twitter. That Janice chiang the Twitter story. I was named White Panda, and this young man said, oh, my God, that's my name. I'm a musician. Because I kept getting weird messages panned ahead when he was like, DJing or something. Oh, you have it. I don't care. Real Stanley or whatever the other thing was, because there's an actress in Asia, um, who does a lot of selfies, and so I don't want to be identified as that one. Well, anyway, they can find you that way.
Guido: Good. Everyone should find you and follow you and support your work, especially with Storm King. And thank you.
Janice Chiang: Thank you.
Guido: Yes.
Janice Chiang: Thank you so much. I'll see you soon. Somewhere maybe before New York comic Con, we can get together.
Guido: Yeah would love that.
Janice Chiang: Yeah.
Guido: And that is a wrap on our conversation with Janice Chiang. It was great.
Rob: Yes, we could have easily talked to her for several more hours. So many more things that I'm eager to learn about about the industry and about her life and journey.
Guido: And hopefully we will.
Rob: Mhm and you can follow Janice on, uh, all other platforms. Those links are in the show notes. And also check out her amazing work with Storm King comics.
Guido: And you can follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, social media at dear, watch deerwatchers.com. You can find more episodes on there. You can click to join, support us.
Rob: And in the words of OATU, keep pondering the possibilities.