Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

>> Rob: By the pricking of my thumb. something podcast this way comes. Welcome to dear Watchers in omniversal comic book podcast, where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

>> Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey are me, Kathryn Hahn, fanboy. Guido, that's my fitting title for today.

>> Rob: Spooky Rob. I don't know.

>> Guido: Oh, I thought you'd be like Nicholas Scratch or the frightful four or Salem seven. I mean, there's so many things for you to choose from that are totally in your wheelhouse.

>> Rob: That is true. A real missed opportunity there. Well, super excited to talk about this episode, but before we get into it, Guido, what's new in our little section of the multiverse?

>> Guido: Well, when this episode comes out, my book, queer epic legends from around the world, is just weeks away from being in bookstores and in people's hands, although some people's hands already possess a copy, including some of our podcast friends out there. So very exciting that some advance reviews copies have been going out and have some book tour dates that will be announced as we get closer to the release date. It's been really fun and I'm really. There's a few reviews. I'm just excited people are paying attention and I'm really excited to share it with everyone.

>> Rob: And mythology. It all ties into October. It feels like it's the perfect time.

>> Guido: I know, I was thinking that. And there are some spookier, darker stories in there, so it will definitely fit for people's October reading for sure. And speaking of October, it's spooky season. It's con season. It's Agatha season. So we are making the right episode for everything that's on the horizon right now.

>> Rob: Yes. And if you are joining us for the first time, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse origins of the story, exploring multiversity and pondering possibilities. So thanks for trick or treating alongside of us.

>> Guido: And remember, we would love a five star review wherever you're listening to us, and find this on all social media. Close to it at, watchers.

>> Rob: And with that, dear Watchers, welcome to episode 142. And let's check out what's happening in the omniverse with our travels to today's alternate universe. Today we are stirring up a heaping cauldron of multiversal energy to answer the question, what if Agatha Harkness was Glinda, the good witch of the north in the wizard of Oz.

>> Guido: Yeah, I know. And shockingly, we have covered the Fantastic Four before, and ironically, the Fantastic Four as the wizard of Oz.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: So we've sort of seen this, set up before, but a different earth. This earth, which only has a temporary earth classification number. It has not been formally labeled in any official index or any in universe reference. So it's temporary number 721. It was never visited before or since. What we're going to talk about today, our coverage, though, of the Fantastic Four, we've covered them a bit. Of course, our premiere episode is what if. Spidey joined the ff. The first issue of what if covered them when we've looked at Namor and different powers they've gotten. But episode 22, way back when is when we talked about the Fantastic Four and the wizard of Oz mashup that happened. Agatha Harkness, of course, we have not covered, but she is the witch on everyone's lips, and we will get into why very soon.

>> Rob: Yes. So without any further antisa, pation.

>> Guido: That poster that they made, this is a tangent, is so good. I cannot believe it. And I hope there is some rocky horror picture show reference in the series because I know this is going to be our third segment talking about it, but I can't. You made that, reference there. And the poster is so good. And of course, Disney owns Rocky horror picture show, so on. Let's get it. I want the time warp. I know, like, I want Joe Locke singing the time warp dressed as Frank N furter. I want it all. All right.

>> Rob: Anyway, well, we'll get into that later in the show, but let's, for now, talk a little bit about our backgrounds with the character of Agatha Harkness. So, Guido, you know, you've read much more comic books than I have. So were you super familiar with Agatha before she premiered on WandaVision?

>> Guido: I was as familiar as, I suspect everyone was, which is we knew who she was, but there are very few Agatha stories to be told. We'll go into her background a little bit more in depth than we usually do because it's actually pretty contained and because it's somewhat interesting. So I, of course, as a reader of Marvel and in particular all of the major events of which she's a part of a few and some fantastic four and all. Scarlet Witch. I know her. I know her from, the miniseries and stuff, I know the role she's played, but she's always been in the background. She's really being centered, I think, largely because of the series. So I know her well, no one could probably have called themselves a fan of Agatha Harkness prior to the MCU version, so I think I'd probably know her as well as most people do who read a lot of Marvel comics. How about you?

>> Rob: I mostly knew her through Marvel Universe, the handbooks, because I read those religiously, as we've mentioned before on the show. And she was in one of the deceased issues, so she was already dead at that point when, the handbook was coming out. But I was into M the book of the day and witches and all that. And it just also seemed really fitting that this spooky character was also now a ghost. So I mostly knew her through that. But even picking up classic comics and any new comics when I was younger, I don't think she was ever in a single issue.

>> Guido: She's not in a lot?

>> Rob: No. I kind of put in my head, too, conflated her a little bit with Madame Webb, because they're both a little.

>> Guido: In the background, older, mystical women.

>> Rob: They know all. They're kind of all seeing. And I had read more Madam Webb, and Madame Webb was on the Spider man animated show, so I think I conflated them a bit in my head.

>> Guido: So I, not to be confused with the Sony Pictures film, of course, no.

>> Rob: Very different than the Dakota johnson version, but I didn't really know her or really experience her until the wandavision tv show.

>> Guido: Yeah, I think that's true for most people, which is why we're gonna go into her a little more than we usually do.

>> Rob: Yeah. So way back when, let's explore some origins of the story right now on this very show, you're gonna get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago. So before we talk about our first book, guido, let's talk a little about agatha's background.

>> Guido: Yeah. And again, since this is a character focused episode, we are gonna give a very quick synopsis of someone who has a somewhat convoluted, but pretty minimal backstory. So you can actually digest, like, the marvel fandom wiki about her, if you're interested. It goes through a lot of the key turns. It's not like trying to read jean grey's marvel fandom. Wikiheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheh so agatha, debuts in fantastic four hash 94 in 1970. We're going to get to that in a moment and who her creators are and what happens in that appearance. And for a while, she mostly appears in Fantastic Four, gets into Avengers west coast a bit, and has had a total of about 160 appearances, which, if you think about that number, for a character who's over 50 years old, it is teeny tiny. And honestly, probably a dozen of those are in the last year and a half, so, probably over 10%.

>> Rob: Yeah. If you look at the list, I think a lot of the issues are from the more modern era, actually, so you're totally right.

>> Guido: Yeah. The exceptions are, of course, outside of the Fantastic Four appearances, which she's primarily that kind of character. And then west coast Avengers, she shows up in the Scarlet witches second series, and she shows up a little bit in, any major Scarlet witch story from then on, including disassembled. She shows up in, infinity War and some of the big events, but does not play a huge role. And then, of course, the Midnight sun series. That's very recent. That's post WandaVision was clearly done because of a lot of the attention being paid to new characters, and very much resets her character. So that's the most recent major arc she's had. She does have a what if one that we haven't covered about the Fantastic five and the negative zone. So one day, we'll get into another multiversal Agatha, and for whatever reason, she was ranked number 38 on the av club's hundred best Marvel characters list. So people out there do like her, but it's not clear why. And I'm gonna guess that list is post Katherine Hahn. Cause otherwise, she would not be in the top 100 for anyone.

>> Rob: Yeah, well, she has been in a few other properties, though, too. So in television, she appeared in an episode of the Avengers united they stand, an episode called the Sorceresses Apprentice. She's voiced by Elizabeth shepherd there. And I thought that was very fitting, because Elizabeth shepherd actually co starred with Vincent Price in an Egren Allen Poe adaptation back in the sixties.

>> Guido: Spooky voice.

>> Rob: Yeah. Ah, and Vincent even gets a name check in our first issue today, so I thought that was great. Then Agatha's also in an episode of X Men Evolution, where she's voiced by Pauline Newstone, who is an actor who just passed away just last year. Of course, in the MCU, she's played by Kathryn Hahn, being introduced in 2020 one's WandaVision. And speaking of lists, Esquire actually ranked that version of Agatha as the fourth best character in the Marvel Cinematic universe.

>> Guido: Which is wild to think about that, because. Fourth. I mean, there are so many characters. I mean, unless it was one of those, like, cynical, like, we hate Marvel. Marvel has such bad characters. We're putting this one forth, but I'm.

>> Rob: Gonna guess it wasn't number one, you would think, right?

>> Guido: I didn't look at it, but still, it's wild and it's true. I mean, you and I were just discussing, even separate from this episode, that her series was likely greenlit solely out of the popularity of her performance in WandaVision. So we'll get into that. But it's really incredible what a shift there is around her as a character because of the attention that the MCU is bringing her.

>> Rob: And she's been in some games too, all pretty recent stuff. So she's in the playable card game Marvel Snapdein, and in Marvel Midnight suns, which you mentioned.

>> Guido: She's in that video. It's a video game first. And then they did a five issue series, like sort of not, not at a, not adapting and taking place in the 616, but definitely inspired by that game because it's magic. Wolverine, different characters, and she's voiced there.

>> Rob: By Courtney Taylor, who is a video game voice over legend. And she also voiced Callisto in the X Men 97 cartoons, so very much in the Marvel world. And then one other fun fact I saw was that Captain Jack Harkness of Doctor who and Torchwood fame is named after her.

>> Guido: Yeah. Which is so fun because for many, we've had many episodes where we've talked about, maybe even not episodes just in life. We've talked a lot about how Russell T. Davis has to be a huge Marvel comics fan. And there's yet another example that he, absolutely.

>> Rob: Now, that character has nothing to do with that.

>> Guido: No. And the name works well, but yes.

>> Rob: It just has a spooky ring to it. I don't know why.

>> Guido: And fancy. Fancy and spooky, which is what her debut appearance is all about. So let's talk about it.

>> Rob: Yeah, so it's Fantastic Four, number 94 from Marvel Comics. This is from January 1970, and it's entitled the return of the Frightful Four.

>> Guido: It is, but who cares about them? Because it's also the first appearance of Agatha Harkness, and it's written by Stan Lee, penciled by Jack Kirby, inked by Joe Sinnett, lettered by Sam Rosen, and edited by Stan. So this is still the legendary fantastic Four team bringing this world to us. So this is, this is it. They've got no plans for her, for sure. You can tell. But, she's there. Why don't you summarize, because some people might not be too familiar with this issue. And really, the fightful four don't matter.

>> Rob: Well, there's another big, I guess, new first time thing in this issue because the, the Fantastic Four, or Reid, and sue, have named their sons. So they take the newly named Franklin Richards to stay with Agatha harkness in order to keep him safe while they're off superheroing. Little do they know that the frightful four have followed them, and that's the wizard, sandman, the trapster, and Medusa. And they follow them to Agatha's upstate home. While the villains easily subdue our heroes, Agatha and her cat Ebony defeat the interlopers, and the Fantastic Four and Franklin are safe and sound as Ben figures out that Agatha is actually a witch.

>> Guido: Well, or suspects it because she's got this book about old Salem on her table. Yes. It'll be sometime before, before we, we get to that, but, yeah. So this was certainly your first time reading this. What, what's your reaction to good old Agatha? Well, I love governess Agatha. This is governor, for sure. This is governess also, like a creepy.

>> Rob: Word that I feel like they associate like that.

>> Guido: Well, it's like very Jane Eyre, too, and all that stuff, which is gothic horror. Most people don't realize it, but it is very hard.

>> Rob: Well, and on that note, they lean into that so much in this issue. It is in a big, spooky house, and there's trap. Trap doors and all of that kind.

>> Guido: Of, and everything's dark. She even comments that it's dark because of her eyesight, but, like, she's setting it, setting up the environment for us because you can't always show darkness that well, especially in this age of comics. So I like that as they're, as she's touring them, she's like, excuse the darkness around my house.

>> Rob: It's literally like a dark and stormy night because the Fantastic Four arrive there in their flying car, and they can't leave because there's a big storm outside, so they have to stay the night. So it's that classic setup that we've seen going back to 1930s horror movies. So I love that aspect. It really feels like too, like they're making this at the same time as, like, that one actor is starring in those Vincent Price Edgar Allen pro movies. So it really has that ambiance.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's a really fun issue. It's some of the late Silver Age, early Bronze Age era, Fantastic Four. That is just so great. It's well paced. It's got the comedy, it's got the characters. I love that, like, thing. Won't pay attention to Franklin until they tell him that Franklin's middle name is Benjamin, and then he's like, oh, okay, sure, fine. Now I'll hold him and pay attention to him, like he's just being a jerk. Otherwise, it's just got those fun little character beats going on. And the serialized storytelling, because this is part of a larger arc, obviously, where Medusa is sort of double crossing them, and they don't know that. And so you've got all these pieces, and I, Stan, and Jack don't care. They expect you to read every issue so you can follow the story, and that's fun.

>> Rob: Yeah, I'd say the. The Fantastic Four, really, a lot of the characters, well, especially the core fantastic four, they don't have much characterization except for Ben. And the thing is, like, such a great character, like, he really pops off these pages. You could tell Stan just loved writing him Jack. And it works so well, too, because so many of those haunted house kind of movies, like Abbott and Costello, you need that comedy person there who's also commenting on how spooky everything is. And Ben really fills that gap, because Reid and Sue and Johnny are, they're in a lot of the issue, but they're. They're largely absent in terms of actually doing anything.

>> Guido: Yeah. Yeah. And Agatha, it's an interesting way to introduce the character of Agatha, because she actually is, as you said in your summary, who defeats the frightful four. So it's a fun, they could have just introduced this random old governess who's going to take care of Franklin, even if they had a sense that, like, oh, let's make her a witch and see what we do with that. But instead, she's kind of, she's not in a lot of the issue, but the action hinges upon her. It's at her house, and then she defeats them in the end. So it's fun how much they're centering her. She's just an extremely wrinkly old woman, which probably hints at the idea. Maybe they had an idea that she's very old. We, of course, years later, find out that she's hundreds, if not thousands of years old. And so they might have had a sense of that, and clearly they wanted to play with the fact that she's a witch and therefore can protect Franklin. And that was probably all they had sketched out for her. But it's fun to see it there.

>> Rob: And it's a nice reversal in that way, because I think if you were to watch a movie and you'd see this, this creepy, strange old woman, she's gonna be the villain, but in fact, she's the hero. Of this book. So it's a nice way of turning, around your expectations. And in fact, because she doesn't look like she is super capable, necessarily is, then it's really nice where she's got the magic cat, Ebony, and then she's got powers. And we don't fully know the extent of her powers yet, but we know that she can fend for herself. So I like that that Jack and Stan were kind of subverting your expectations. And in fact, it's almost, like, empowering it away because it's taking this older female character and making her the hero of the story.

>> Guido: Yeah. And she does become plenty evil later on. In fact, through to now, she's every.

>> Rob: Marvel character at some point.

>> Guido: Yeah. Though she shifted to be, like, consistently evil, or at least consistently, sort of corrupt and choosing an evil path. But, yeah, here, that is not the case. And it's fun, so it's a good start, and it does barely scratch the surface. I mean, if you really want more of her, you have to read into decades of comics because you don't get some of those flashbacks. You don't get the fact that she was alive at the Salem witch trials. You don't. She has a son. Of course. The son gives birth to Salem seven. Then there's just so much. Yeah, she's a ghost for a long time. She's brought back to life, and she was just recently de aged, so there's so much going on with her character, but a lot of it more in the last 30 years.

>> Rob: Yeah. And she comes back in. Her next appearance is just a few issues later with the Fantastic Four and a Nyla. So I'm just curious to see how they bring her back.

>> Guido: She just, for a while, she's just sort of. I think she was a device to explain how they deal with having a baby so they just, like, are able to give her Franklin. She'll sometimes warn them something's gonna happen, like, she's not really a character fully fleshed until her son and Salem seven come along. And then that kicks off what'll be, again, a, 40 year arc of retconning who she is and her origin. So let's move into a different version of her.

>> Rob: Yes. So I'm mixing up a magic potion that's going to transform us into exploring multiversity.

>> Guido: I am your guide through these vast new realities.

>> Rob: Follow me and ponder the question, what if? And now we are heading somewhere over the rainbow to ask the question, what if Agatha Harkness was Glinda the good Witch of the north in the wizard of Oz. And this is from Avengers fairy tales number four from Marvel comics that came out in December 2008.

>> Guido: Yes. So this is written by now editor in chief CB Siebulski, penciled by Ricardo Tercio, lettered by David Lanfear, edited by Alejandro Arbona and Molly Lazer. It's part of the Marvel Fairy tales they were doing from 2006 to 2008. So there are a few different mini series. Each one is a standalone fairy tale version of the characters we know. So it's taking place in completely made up multiversal universes, though with.

>> Rob: In public domain universes too, generally, yes.

>> Guido: Because this is pre Disney takeover, of course. So, there is no co ownership of anything here. And so there's an X Men fairy tale series, a Spider man fairy tales series, and then this Avengers fairy Tales series in 2008. As you mentioned, this is the fourth and final issue which adapts the wizard of Oz. Why don't you give a quick summary of what happens in this adaptation?

>> Rob: Sure. So Jennifer Walters, aka she Hulk, battles whirlwind in the Avengers mansion, but when she is knocked unconscious, she wakes up in the land of Oz. There she meets Agatha, the good witch of the north, who informs Jennifer that she just killed a wicked witch of the east in the form of a female quicksilver, question mark. Inviting the wrath of Wanda, the Wicked Witch of the West, Jennifer sets out to find the wizard and return home, meeting the scarecrow, Tin man, and lion along the way, who were kinda sort of Thor, iron Man, and Captain America. We'll get into it. The wizard, aka Magneto, challenges Jennifer to return his wayward daughter, Wanda to him. Jennifer and her friends battle Wanda, and it unleashes Jen's inner she Hulk powers. With father and daughter reunited, Agatha, tells Jen that she can return home. Of course, the power was in her all along.

>> Guido: And back in the mansion, she can become green.

>> Rob: Exactly. Back in that mansion, she Hulk, together with the Wasp, defeat whirlwind. The end.

>> Guido: Yeah. So before we get into Agatha's role in this, just overall impressions, I have to say. First, I think CB Sabolski is not a good person, and I think CB Sapulski is not a great writer. However, I loved this issue.

>> Rob: Oh, really?

>> Guido: Yeah. I don't love the art, but it was of a style. In the 0608 era, they were also actually publishing Frank, Baum book adaptations of Oz at the same time Marvel was, and it was probably actually the same artist. I didn't look it up. So it's of that time, for sure. It's sort of the manga influence coming into american comics, but with that digital coloring sheen that existed.

>> Rob: Yeah. Kind of a, kid friendly something about it, too. And everyone is.

>> Guido: I don't love the art, but I think the story is so fun. I think all those little references are great. I loved when Quicksilver was the shoes curled up under the house. I thought that was just great. It's a good way of getting, like, Wanda in the story and then having it be magneto at the end. Like, it used the lore of marvelous. I loved when Wanda says, no more munchkins, and all the munchkins disappear, which is like, of course, the house of M reference. So there's just these great little Easter eggs woven into the story that, to me, made it fun. The captain America is Cap Wolf, right? So it's. He's. He's built like Cap Wolf. Captain America became a wolf for a very long time.

>> Rob: I did not know that.

>> Guido: And he's like a big, white wolfie creature. So. Okay. I was thinking it was like, well.

>> Rob: M. Well, that was my takeaway. I think there's some. Some references that are spot on and very clever. Like, it actually was thinking, oh, it's whirlwind. Because in the wizard of Oz.

>> Guido: Yes.

>> Rob: The tornado.

>> Guido: Totally.

>> Rob: That's.

>> Guido: That's why it's this random, like, d list villain at the beginning that sends she hulk there. Totally.

>> Rob: I always kind of liked worldwide, but. Yes. So I totally get it. But I. But I. But then some other ones feel like a little bit of a stretch or a little lazy to me. See, I didn't know the cap wolf, so that makes more sense. Iron man, tin man, of course, makes sense.

>> Guido: Well, and it's good because he's missing his heart. So I like that. Right? So you've got the tie there. And then Thor. Here's why Thor works, because Donald Blake walks with a cane. He has a hard time walking because he. I don't remember. He might have been originally. I'm sure they retconned this. He might have originally been a polio survivor.

>> Rob: I think he. When we covered it. Yeah.

>> Guido: So scarecrow, of course, like, he's having a hard time, like, holding himself up, and he's like, my legs don't work. If only I could pick up my, like, hammer, but I can't. So it's just.

>> Rob: I get it. But it seems a little. I don't know. Because also, I associate the scarecrow with, like, well, they changed it, too, because I always think it's like, if I only had a brain. So I was thinking, oh, it makes sense if it was like, reed Richards, because Reed also has, like, the limbs. Right.

>> Guido: Blake is a doctor, so, yeah, he's smart.

>> Rob: Yeah, there's a few things like that.

>> Guido: Maybe because the fantastic four already were the wizard of Oz, they kept them off limits. I agree. The Thor one is not totally clear, but I still think it works. I don't think.

>> Rob: And Magneto works because of Wanda. and Wanda, of course, makes perfect sense. But Magneto just stand alone as the wizard. I don't know. There's something that doesn't connect there.

>> Guido: It's fun because he's a little bombastic, and I like the tower looks like his helmet. So before you realize it's him, you see the whole tower. They don't do anything with the, like, projecting a false image of yourself aspect of the wizard here. But still, I think it's fun. And you could imagine who would be ruling over Oz. Well, Magneto, sure. Why not?

>> Rob: No, I, get it. Yeah. I kept thinking, oh, is there someone better? Also, maybe just because we just read a comic with a character called the wizard, I was like, not that you would want the wizard to be the wizard of Oz, necessarily, because. Yeah, he's not.

>> Guido: Yeah. But then what I appreciate here is that he, he was looking for something that would make the story make sense, and that's where I think it's the magneto, quicksilver, scarlet witch thing really works. So, yeah, I was. I was surprised I had not read this before. This was my first time reading this, and because I, again, have always known I don't like CB Sapolsky, and, I enjoyed reading it.

>> Rob: M. Yeah. So do you think it's the. Because this is already the second Marvel Fantastic Four crossover that we're covering. Do you think it's just, like, the inherent power.

>> Guido: You mean wizard of Oz? Fantastic Oz?

>> Rob: A wizard of Oz? Yeah. Do you think it's just the inherent power of the wizard of Oz as a story that it just fits so well into?

>> Guido: Well, this one has nothing to do with the Fantastic Four, so I don't. I don't know about that because you're. Wait, you might have.

>> Rob: Oh, sorry. I'm saying, just, like, do you think, like, the wizard of Oz is so, it's such a great story that,

>> Guido: You didn't mean to say fantastic?

>> Rob: No, I didn't need to say fantastic.

>> Guido: So marvel. Yeah. I think there's probably two things, and I think we probably talked about this on the last episode. Or I know you and I have talked about this outside of this is one, is everyone knows it. I think you probably said on that episode, your theory that it's the most watched movie ever in the history of the world, and I think that's probably a solid theory. So everyone knows that story. It also resonates, right? Being taken away from your home and having to find the power inside yourself. So, like, the fact that it's she Hulk here is only sort of cute with the green slippers, and then she becomes green. There's no other reason it needs to be she Hulk other than she is on the Avengers at the time. So it could be any character because the story is just so basic in that construction. And then in terms of the reason you cross over is because, yeah, it's a little bit of a fantasy world that everyone is able to understand so you can put people with power. Yeah, I think there are. I think it's an easy mold for an alternate universe storytelling to happen. Wizard of Oz, I'd say.

>> Rob: Yeah, no, I agree. I think, it would be interesting to take even more characters. I'm curious if DC ever did anything with them, because it would be curious to see, like, oh, what DC characters could you map on to the wizard of Oz characters?

>> Guido: Yeah, I'm sure it's been done, even if it's just in, like, a gag panel or something. I doubt there was an arc or certainly a miniseries, but I can't imagine they haven't made a reference to wizard of Oz at some point. I think that would be impossible. So on Agatha here and her role, it's fun because this is now the origin we read. Doesn't really set you up for this. But of course, you know from the MCU that Agatha sort of becomes more of Wanda's mentor in magic. And so it's fun to put her in here as perhaps the most famous witch or certainly the longest running witch in the Marvel universe. So maker, the good witch of the north, who sort of has to guide she Hulk, and then it makes sense because she was betrayed by Wanda, who's now turned evil, which I think is sort of an aspect of wizard of Oz. Like, Glinda's sort of pissed at the Witch of the west for being mean and, like, I don't even know if they're all sisters or. I don't even know understand it.

>> Rob: I don't know what Frank L. Bob did, but it's certainly in wicked, wicked world. Yes, that. That is all true. So I think, no, you're right. It works. And why not include, as you said, the longest running Marvel witch as one of the other most famous witches of all time? It just seems like it's a perfect.

>> Guido: Match, and she gives the advice that gets her there. So, that fits with the role that Agatha had moved into for the 20 years prior to this comic coming out, certainly in the Marvel universe. So I think that was a good use of agatha harkness.

>> Rob: Yeah. I mean, it's not a huge role, but I do like that she comes back at the end. Like, Glinda comes back, and she's the final person to make sure that Dorothy Jennifer really gets the message of the story.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah, I agree. All right, so enough with our earth temporary numbering 721.

>> Rob: So, yes, let us wrap up by pondering some possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted?

>> Guido: Diverted? Averted.

>> Rob: Togito, what are we talking about for pondering possibilities?

>> Guido: Let's just talk about Kathryn Hahn. That's it. Period. no, we'll talk about Agatha on screen. I think primarily because the show is about to start when this episode comes out. The show is going to be less than two weeks away, and we, want to talk about what we are hoping to see in that show, and we can talk about WandaVision and where that character is gonna go. As I've mentioned in this episode, there is a lot of recent stuff in the character in comics that we're not covering. It's hit or miss, but it's all there. There's a big annual crossover arc just from a few months ago that has her as the big villain trying to rebuild the Darkhold. So they're really trying to bring her in in the way that now we're excited about in the MCU, in the books, but you don't read the books. So we're not gonna talk too much about the books, but we can talk about what's on screen. And I wanted to start because you mentioned the wizard of Oz references. I remember during the last phase of Marvel stuff, a lot of people noticing wizard of Oz references spread throughout different series. And some of it might have been a reach, but some of it was really explicit. And I think the two biggest properties that people were seeing were WandaVision had a lot of aspects of, trying to get back home, and the lost memory and black and white to color, even. And then the black and white to color comes back at the end of man thing, werewolf by night, and Elsa then is tinted red, and everything transforms. So those were just two of the examples. There were many others that I think people online had been looking at to say that there's something about the wizard of Oz story showing up in this phase. And so here we are having just read Agatha Harkness in Wizard of Oz with a new Agatha Harkness show coming up. Do you think it's gonna be wizard of Ozzy? We know. Here's what's cool. I don't even know if you know this. She's going down the witch's road. That's the whole arc of, the series. So it's very yellow brick road. It's a journey that's sort of a metaphor and a road. And so do you think, how much wizard of Oz do you think we're gonna see in the series coming out?

>> Rob: I hadn't even thought of it, but now that you say it, I definitely think it could be easily referenced. It's also a queer icon, the wizard of Oz. And we've got Patti Lupoon, who's a queer icon. Yes.

>> Guido: For people who don't know, gay people were called friends of Dorothy for many decades.

>> Rob: Aubrey Praza, who's also a queer actor. So there's, it's all there in this show. And I think the other thing is about the wizard of Oz is you need the central character, you need the Dorothy character, but then you need a group of friends. And I really have been trying to avoid seeing anything about the new Agatha show, but I do know it's like Agatha and then a group around and.

>> Guido: An ensemble or something.

>> Rob: So that could really add into the whole wizard of Oz aspect of it.

>> Guido: Yeah. I'm really curious how, especially with the poster homages that just came out. We talked about the rocky horror one earlier. There's the true detective one. There's a babadook one. There's one that no one's quite deciphered but uses, but turns lyrics from Macbeth. Was it Macbeth?

>> Rob: It was, No, it was like Henry VI, part two or something.

>> Guido: Turns some Shakespeare lyrics into a song. There's a lot of weird stuff going on with the promotions, but what they are doing is the same thing did, which is pulling out a whole bunch of references. So WandaVision, of course, used tv and pretty exclusively used tv to do that. This is using, I don't know, musicals maybe. Or maybe it's just, you know, because true detective isn't a musical. So this is just using all sorts of things, which is cool. And so I'm, curious how much on screen that's gonna be.

>> Rob: Yeah. You know, one thing I'm thinking just to continue down this yellow brick road for a little longer. Is that true, detective? At least, like, the new night country starred one of the most famous queer actors, Jodie Foster of all time. Then the Babadook, of course, there was the whole thing online where everyone was saying the Babadook was gay. You know, they were just kind of making that up, but there's really leaning into queerness, into this other queerness aspect.

>> Guido: Well, I know, and I know Joe Locke is playing a queer character because I've just seen pull quotes again. I also don't read or watch anything, but I've seen him talking about that. So, yeah, I have no doubt that they're building a big gay world for all of us to enjoy in this show. And that's exciting.

>> Rob: Yeah. But, yeah, offline, too. And I think it's so interesting and kind of what we were saying earlier about the success of this character and how much she blew up. I think at the time, everyone, even when WandaVision was coming out, there was still this thought process around, like, Marvel thinking, oh, everything Marvel does is, like, so intricately planned. And now in the current phase, we're kind of seeing that not to be the case, but I think Agatha is such a great example of that, where maybe they had these stories that they wanted to tell in some way and going into the dark home and all these other things, but they could not have anticipated that Agatha, the character, was going to be as popular as she was. So I do like that reminder. It's like, oh, no, they're not just, like, stuck in this plan. They are able to be nimble and change and go with who is popular and then put the story that they want to tell into that new vehicle.

>> Guido: Well, and what's so cool about her as a character and her place in the MCU, too, is, I think I. She is the perfect character, and this series will be the perfect series to try to do both things, which is tell a self contained story, because people might, be burnt out or feel stretched or feel confused if it links too much, but tell a great story that has very real implications, because even if, let's say, Wanda doesn't show up in this series, which is fine, she might not, there's going to be ramifications in this series that affect when we next see Wanda, that affect the future of magic in the Marvel universe, so, therefore, might affect even Doctor Strange, that affect the presence of the Darkhold. who knows? If we get Billy and Tommy, then we're leading into young Avengers and I am not waiting for this show to center any of that because I agree. I think there they're trying to move away from everything, feeling of one piece. But I do think this show has the potential to both stand alone, be so much fun, and also have a lot of impact on the larger story, which is exactly what WandaVision did. Awesome. WandaVision told a story. You can go watch WandaVision start to finish and enjoy and appreciate what it's doing. You can go watch one episode and enjoy and appreciate what it's doing. And also it was hugely impactful and important to the future of the MCU in ways that we still haven't even fully explored. So I think this series will do that again, and that really excites me a lot.

>> Rob: I'm, trying to think of a couple of things that I'm excited for or I'd like to see out of this series. I'd love to hear what that is for you. But one thing, kind of just thinking what you were saying about WandaVision is like, I remember when that show was coming out, I think it was the power of the pandemic. I also think of that show so much in, like, pandemic world, but I love that there was the mysteries of WandaVision and you and me and our friend Elliot, who's been on our show a bunch, we would get on the phone afterwards and talk about what did this mean? What did that mean? And that has been missing, especially from.

>> Guido: The Disney plus had pandemic protocols in place and saw each other for some of those episodes.

>> Rob: Yes, no, totally.

>> Guido: Yeah, it was some of our first human contact during that, time.

>> Rob: But anyway, well, and it was so fun to have that, and I don't, I do think that's been missing, especially from the Disney shows. So I would love to see some of those mysteries and, like, it'll have us decipher what's going to be happening there.

>> Guido: I think that's going to be present here. And, like, WandaVision, I think it's going to be firing on two levels. I think there's going to be the mystery of the in show. Mystery like, who's Aubrey Plaza? That's still actually a mystery. No one knows. I think she has some generic name, but no one knows who she's actually playing. And then there's gonna be like, the bigger, like, what does this mean stuff? I think, like, wandaVision, you know, became a joke, but, like, everyone's gonna be looking for Mephisto, and that's really fun. Like, and that was, and for all we know, Mephisto is gonna show up because everyone was waiting for him to show up in WandaVision and it never happened. And that was like the joke. Everyone was like, looking for stuff. But I think you're going to get those mysteries and I think they're going to be really satisfying. I was thinking today, I bet Emma Caulfield's going to be in this series.

>> Rob: Oh, I thought it was confirmed m that she was going to be in this, but maybe they.

>> Guido: I don't remember if it's confirmed or not, but I know there were hints or rumors that she would come back, but. So what's fun is so much of WandaVision, when we were like going over every detail, like, even I remember the grid of the neighborhood that they were living in, people were like, wait a second, this is hinting at, the Scorpio. Like Scorpio from the Avengers and the Zodiac and Salem seven because of the aim agent. Yeah. So some of those were not there and people were seeing things that weren't there, but some of them might have been, right. So I think there was something with Emma, Caulfield's character's name, I don't even remember. And people were linking it to something. And now I bet that's going to pay off. I bet that is going to be a part of the world because there were all these connections to Nicola scratch, to Agatha's son in that original series. So I think we're going to get all of that. And, and I don't feel like my expectations are unreasonably high. I think we are gonna get it. I think it's gonna deliver.

>> Rob: Yeah. And the only other thing I really want from it is because of the time it's coming out and we kind of kicked off the episode saying, you know, we're entering spooky season or we are in it is I want it to have some spooky.

>> Guido: I think I've seen a few poll quotes about there being horror in it.

>> Rob: yeah.

>> Guido: Which I hope is true, because I.

>> Rob: Agree, well, sometimes when they say, and I know it's not gonna be like a saw movie, but I. I know sometimes when they say there's horror in it and then it's like, oh no, people are wearing black. Like that's what they consider horror. So I'd like.

>> Guido: Right. Or just call anything with magic exactly.

>> Rob: Like I want it to be queer and campy, but I also want there to be an actual undercurrent of horror to it, which I think they did really well, with the werewolf by night special. So I think if they can tap into some of that tone here, I think it would definitely fulfill my Halloween season watching.

>> Guido: Yeah, well, and what's cool is this comes out over Halloween. So it's coming out weekly. And the episode, I think the finale maybe is scheduled for the week just after Halloween. So it's going to be coming over Halloween, which is really cool.

>> Rob: And WandaVision had an iconic Halloween episode as well, so.

>> Guido: That's true.

>> Rob: A Halloween episode, because I love. There was nothing better than when you were growing up and, ah, a, sitcom did a Halloween, had a special episode. Yeah.

>> Guido: That's one question I have. I'm curious how episodic this show will be. And considering it's Jack Schaefer again, I'm guessing it's gonna feel very similar that there will be these distinct, especially since she's gonna be embarking on this journey in some way. I bet every episode is gonna feel very distinct, which is good, because, of course, some of the many complaints that can be lobbed against some of the other Marvel shows is that they felt like a miniseries stretched into six episodes when they should have just been a movie. This one, I bet, is gonna feel like a tv show, and that's gonna be really cool to see again because I don't think anything has felt like a tv show since WandaVision. Maybe she hulk a little, but WandaVision.

>> Rob: Well, and I think so many of those shows, going back to the mystery aspect, so many. The other ones we were watching, and it's like, oh, you just, you, you guessed it, episodes ahead of time, and probably because it was also stretched, but you knew exactly where it was going to be going. And that wasn't the case with WandaVision. So I'm, I'm hoping that this is able to recreate that feeling as well, of like, okay, I don't know where it's going to be going, and surprise me.

>> Guido: It's also, I think, nine episodes. What? I'm not clear, because I refuse to read anything about it. So people will be listening to this and saying, no, you're wrong, fine, but I can't. I'm not clear if the 9th episode is a surprise and we are, we don't know if it's actually happening. Like, if the series is eight, but there's this Phantom 9th, or if they've officially announced nine. I'm not sure which it is, but I just think it's cool. It's a little longer than some of the other series. I'm sure they're going to be shorter episodes. I'm sure they'll be back to the half hour format. but I'm glad that there's eight, probably nine of them. Possibly nine of them. And I'm going to go for my one reach prediction, which, I mean, I have tons of predictions for this, but my one realistic reach prediction is that I think we're gonna get a big tie in to the werewolf by night special.

>> Guido: And I think that because it's been two years since that special, that special was great. Did really well, ignited a lot of interest in these characters, and we haven't seen any of them. And this show has the potential to bring in Elsa Bloodstone or I believe there's a man thing character that has been confirmed for the show. I don't want to spoil if it wasn't supposed to be released. And, I. And again, I don't try to read things. I just sometimes see things. So I think maybe it will be that final 9th episode. We'll sort of be a Halloween special again, like werewolf by night. And we'll tie in now some of our magical, mystical characters a little bit. So that's my realistic but reach prediction. Do you have a realistic reach prediction for us?

>> Rob: We kind of said it earlier, but that there will be a musical number.

>> Guido: Well, just one. I think there's gonna be more than one.

>> Rob: Yeah. Like, like you said, we've got the posters, but you've got Joe Locke, who's been in the musical. Patti Lupone, musical legend. Catherine Hahn. She sang a song when she was guest hosting the Jimmy Kimmel show. So there's, there's people who we know can. Are, used in the musical milieu. So I'd love to see a musical number, but also make it that it's somehow tied into the storytelling. Like, I don't want it just to, like, have a musical number that's just, like, plopped in.

>> Guido: No, it has to be, like, part of the show. The buffy musical.

>> Rob: Exactly. Yeah.

>> Guido: The pinnacle of M. Tv show musicals. Or, I mean, the use of Agatha all along as a song. Now, it wasn't quite musical because it came at the end of the episode, but it was great because it moved the story along. It gave you a big reveal. It was like, boom.

>> Rob: So totally.

>> Guido: And I love that there's a remix of that song out right now. So we are. We are getting everything we want, and it's been so exciting to figure out what we're going to see. Maybe Agatha will be Glinda, the good witch, and then we'll know it came from Earth 721. So in the meantime, that is a wrap. Dear Watchers, thank you, as always, for listening. I have been Katherine Hahn fanboy Guito can follow us on all social media. Most social mediaearwatchers, please find us on threads, on Instagram, on blue sky. The reading list is in the show notes.

>> Rob: Leave us a five star review wherever you listen, and we'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.

>> Guido: Keep pondering the possibilities.