What if Batman and Daredevil teamed up to defeat Two-Face and Mr. Hyde?
>> Rob: It's the Dark Knight meets the man without fear on, Deer Watchers, an omniversal. Com book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.
>> Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories in the world that make up the omniverse of fictional realities we all love. and your watchers on this journey are me, Edo, the dark devil I love.
>> Rob: And I'm Rob Butquito. I have a joke for you. What do they call Matt Murdoch during dry January?
>> Guido: I don't know. What?
>> Rob: the man without beer.
>> Guido: Oh, no, no. That doesn't even tie in our other property of today. at least you could have done that.
>> Rob: I know. Well, I only thought of one for Daredevil. But before we do get into today's episode, Guido, what's new in our little section of the multiverse?
>> Guido: Well, we covered a similar topic last week on, our Marvel Dis. DC episode. And we'll talk about why that's important in a moment. But I do have two unrelated things. One, I'm reading Superman for all Kryptons, an oral history of Superman. It's published by. I don't even know if you realize this when I started reading it. It's published by Nacelle.
>> Rob: Oh, really?
>> Guido: Who does a lot of great TV shows. Who? They do the toy store near you and icons on Earth and has gotten into comics. They do the Biker Mice for Mars and the Power Lords comics. But this is a comprehensive oral history of Superman told by creators and actors and so many people on the comic side and the media side. I'm really excited to dig in. Was inspired to finally pick it up. It's from last year because of last.
>> Rob: Week'S episode and the, of course, the upcoming Superman movie.
>> Guido: And yes. And it's 800 pages, so I'm hoping I'll be done by July. We'll see. And speaking of movies, we did see Captain Americ, Brave New World. Nothing to say about that, but Daredevil, Born again is coming soon, so we have some on screen activity. It felt like there was like a six month lull there, and now there's slow pickup building us toward the summer, I think. So we'll have to see what we think. And it is a little bit of inspiration for today's episode.
>> Rob: Well, you and I have avoided all trailers for it, so maybe Batman's on the show. We don't even know.
>> Guido: We'll speculate in our third segment today. The last thing is inspired by last week's episode when we talked about the Marvel DC Comics crossovers and how few of them we have covered. We willed into existence the huge announcement from Comics Pro that happened just last week from when we're recording, which is that Marvel and DC will each have a crossover, one called DC Marvel, one called Marvel dc coming out later this year. A one shot comic crossover that no one knows anything else about.
>> Rob: Now has this been officially announced by the publishers or.
>> Guido: Yes, yes, they were our Comics Pro. Yep, editors in chiefs both jointly announced it. So who knows if it picks up where something left off from the 90s is something else new. Is some sort of anthology one shot, the start of something new? Who knows. But we'll certainly stay on top of it because it's really exciting and relates to today's Episode two.
>> Rob: And if you're joining us for the first time, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today. Origins of the story, exploring multiversity and pondering possibilities. So thanks for coming along and remember.
>> Guido: Leave a five star review wherever you are listening and find us online at Deer Watchers on most social media.
>> Rob: And with that, welcome m to episode 154 and let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travels to today's alternate universe. Today we are blind as a bat in the Big Apple as we answer the question, what if Batman and Daredevil teamed up to defeat Two Face and Mr. Hyde?
>> Guido: I guess this does take place in New York. I was just thinking you're missing a Gotham reference in there. I don't know what Gotham would be if New York is the Big Apple. Gotham is I the big rotten Apple.
>> Rob: Yeah, exactly. And I was just thinking, you know, it's episode 154 Studio 54 New York.
>> Guido: A little tie in there that's a little esoteric and doesn't totally fit with today's episode. Though it might have been better had Batman and Daredevil gon clubbing together.
>> Rob: SW would've enjoyed that 100%. Been at Studio 54 though, right? Yeah, he's the part of the glitterati.
>> Guido: I think that's true. So the topic of today's conversation, in terms of their geographic placement in the Omniverse, this is technically classified as Counter Earth. Now we haven't actually talked much about Counter Earth. Counter Earth is what is all of these DC Marvel crossover one shots, starting from back on the Amazing Spider Man, Superman in the 70s through to these and the early 2000s are supposedly taking place on. However, this one is branded Elseworlds and as our listeners know, that's the on again, off again DC imprint for all multiversal stories over there. So I suspect this is not counter Earth. And we will talk about why in our second segment. So I think this is a unique Earth that we'll call the Big Rot and Apple there. I'm going to use that now.
>> Rob: Also, it's a DC Marvel collaboration, but it's Elsewhorlds. That's a DC term.
>> Guido: Well, but it's printed by Marvel, as we know from when we have explored this. And, we gave a quick history of Marvel DC crossovers on an episode a while back. They will always have to negotiate who is publishing each book. And when there's one book, it's a little harder to do that. Although there does end up being a, second Daredevil Batman, which we'll talk about. But in this case it is a Marvel published comic with the Elseworlds imprint. So my guess is that was in part like the publishing deal. There's also a story reason that I think this is in elsesworlds that we'll get into. And we have covered these Marvel DC crossovers now an increasing number of times, including our last episode, which was the Superman Fantastic Four crossover. So if you didn't listen to that, go back and listen. And in terms of today's characters and our past coverage, we've covered Daredevil only via, Bullseye and Elektra way back on episode number eight. Episode number eight, which was four years ago. So that did not contain Daredevil's origin though. And Batman we have covered no less than 20 times. You can go to deerwatchers.com, click episodes and search those up or wherever you're listening to our podcast. Search Batman on our show and you'll find all those episodes.
>> Rob: Well, like you said, we've talked about Batman ad nausea, but we haven't talked about Daredevil that much. So, Guido, what's your background with Matt Murdock, AKA the Daredevil?
>> Guido: He was, as a lifelong Marvel fan, as our listeners know, he was someone I'd say I actually liked more than like the Avengers, for example, but far less than like the X Men or even the Fantastic Four. One of my good friends that I would read comics with in elementary and middle school really loved Daredevil. So I remember, like, I got the Man Without Fear and would pick up those books, but he never did it for me. So I was never a big fan. And I certainly didn't buy every issue that changed probably when they did omnibuses of The Claremont Miller run of Daredevil. I got those, read those, completely fell in love, and was entranced by those stories and the art in them. And then the Netflix series came, which I really loved. It's flawed, but I really loved. So I started to become more of a fan and have since read every run of Daredevil that's come out in the last 10 years, probably, and continue to read Daredevil. Sometimes I'm into it, sometimes I skim it, but. So I call myself a moderate fan of the character at this point. What about you?
>> Rob: So, as listeners of this podcast will know, I'm a big villain fan and always one of my favorite villains by design and character was the Kingpin. So I would seek out books that had the Kingpin in it in old comic books or new books. And of course, that was often Daredevil books. But I was really mostly interested in the Kingpin, not in Daredevil. So I was never reading him consistently. I feel like, I don't know, maybe during the time I was reading comics in the early to mid-90s. I don't know if he was kind of on the back burner. I don't remember seeing too much of him. Of course, then I saw him on screen in the Ben Affleck film.
>> Guido: You completely left. No, I agree. I actually liked that movie a lot. I still do. And. But the Kingpin is so good in thatah. When he, like, shatters the glass while they're fighting. Oh, yeah, that is great sequence.
>> Rob: And then really the Netflix show, which, like you said, I think I like it. There's parts of it I don't like as much, but I think overall is a very visually interesting show. And that was really the first time I got into some of the deeper Daredevil lore, like, who is Foggy Nelson and Karen? I know they maybe in the movie too, but that was really the time. So I'm definitely much more of a Daredevil newbie.
>> Guido: Yeah. Well, why don't we dig into the character a little bit and talk about if we even like this character?
>> Rob: Since we're both lukewarm, let's go back to 1964, its origins of the story. Right now, on this very show, you're gonna get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago. I always like hearing Stan Lee's voice when we are going to discuss a Stanley comic.
>> Guido: That is very fitting.
>> Rob: This is Daredevil, Volume 1, Issue 1 from Marvel Comics, April 1964. And the story is entitled the Origin of The Daredevil.
>> Guido: So this is written by Stan Le, penciled by Bill Everett, who also does the inks, though with parent help from Steve Ditko, uncredited, lettered by Sam Rosen and edited by Stan. Of course, we know who Stan Lee is and don't need to go into that. Bill Everett, though, created Namor, the submaner. And of course, here Daredevil so has a few key comics, is more of a Golden age era artist and did some writing back in the golden age, working even with Martin Goodman. So on the original timely comics for Marvel Comics number one, he actually has work in that went on to create Daredevil here and then died in the early 1970s, so.
>> Rob: And died at 55 too. So he really wasn't around for so much of, like, the continuation of comics, definitely.
>> Guido: So we read this because it is the first appearance of Daredevil, and Stan makes it really clear, rather bombastically, as he's known to do, that this is gonna be big. And there's all sorts of trade dress on the COVID I actually like the COVID because it's a oddly, crowded cover.
>> Rob: It almost looks like a newspaper tabloid.
>> Guido: Broadsheet or like an advertisement for something because it has, like, all these boxes.
>> Rob: Spider Man's ey. It was almost maybe that early thing of like, well, let's put Spider man on the COVID It's gonna sell more, even though he's not even in this book.
>> Guido: Well, it's very clear, and I think I know this just from reading history books on Marvel. Like, they're testing this character and they really don't know how it's gonna do, even to the point where at the end of the issue, in the little box it says write in and has Marvel's address to tell us what you think about Daredevil. So clearly this was an experiment pretty early on in Marvel's run. At this point, let's do a brief synopsis of the issue for anyone who doesn't know this origin, although it's up there with the most known iconic origins, I'm gonna say at this point, like.
>> Rob: We'Ve said before on this show, there's some characters, you just know their origin even though you've never read it or actually seen it. And I think this is one of those cases.
>> Guido: Agreed. But what happens in the issue?
>> Rob: So at the insistence of his boxer father, Matt Murdoch hits the books for going sports and the social life. When he attempts to save a blind man from walking in traffic, Matt is injured with a chemical spewed onto his face. Destroying his eyesight. But soon Matt learns he has heightened abilities and continues to succeed in both academics and training his body. One night, Matt and his new friend and law partner, Foggy Nelson, attend a boxing match with Matt's father, who's being forced by his crooked manager, the Fixer, to take a fall. Matt's father refuses and is killed for it. Matt vows to avenge his father and adopts the guise of the Daredevil in.
>> Guido: A bright yellow uniform.
>> Rob: I really like. You know what? I like the yellow uniform better than the red one. It doesn't make as much sense, but.
>> Guido: I think it looks. Is good.
>> Rob: Cool.
>> Guido: I agree. And I would imagine it. Some of it had to do with separating him from Spider man than they tried to make it more, I don't know, realistic or devil looking, frankly.
>> Rob: Totally. You know, one character I love over in D.C. is our man. It's kind of got the same color scheme as yellow. Yeah. But with the blacks and a little bit of red. Yeah.
>> Guido: So I guess let's start with the issue before we talk about this origin and this character. What'd you think of this issue?
>> Rob: Well, well. And as Stan says on the front page, you're gonna want this issue. Cause it's gonna be worth a lot of money one day.
>> Guido: Yeah. He said if you were lucky enough to get a Spider man number one, you're. And you held onto it, you're probably not parting. Which is really funny because we're only talking about a year of time here.
>> Rob: And also, what would have ca. It would probably, been worth $35 then or something.
>> Guido: 35Lar prob. 35 cents. I mean, we're not talking about a lot of inflation at this point. So he's definitely marketing.
>> Rob: It's so modern though, because we think of the speculation market now. And it's also so standan to include right on page one. You're going to want this book because it's like a number one, which is such a comic book thing today. Right.
>> Guido: Well. And that's why I think, yeah. He foresaw and ushered in the era of comics that we're kind of still in. But in terms of this issue, one thing I'll say, I have read this issue before, but not in a very long time. I. It stands out to me as unusual for other Marvel issues of this era, I think for two reasons. One is there is so much text.
>> Rob: Yes.
>> Guido: Like, and we have talked about Stan's occasional long windedness. And certainly when you get into the era of like, Roy a little later you get a lot of long windedness. But generally the 60s Silver Age marvel titles are not filled with paragraph long caption boxes. And this issue is. Yeah, so that is one thing that makes it unusual in a bad way, I'd say. The other thing that makes it unusual in a good way, I think, is the art. The Bill Everett art, is strikingly modern.
>> Rob: I agree to.
>> Guido: I agree it does not. And I love the Marvel Silver Age art. Don't get me wrong, I love the Kirby art. But this looks really distinct and almost looks like someone drew it in maybe the 70s, 80s, or even today.
>> Rob: Cause the COVID is a little bit of a different style. I don't know if it was a different artist even who did the COVID but then when you look at that first page, I had the same thought. I was like, this looks so modern because when you look at the Ditko and it's a, Spider man, it's almost. Almost abstract in a way. Like, the characters don't really look like people. And here they very much look like fully forms people here.
>> Guido: Yeah, I, agree. There's something about the action, the lines, and maybe that is the Ditko inks over it if it was indeed inked. The. The COVID is based on Kirby art. So that's probably why it does feel more akin to the Marvel of the time. And then, of course, we know pretty fast Wally Wood takes over the designs before getting into the more iconic Ditko era of Daredevil and then into obviously the Frank Miller much later. But that's what stands out to me. The story is simple and straightforward, and I've heard it countless times. What about you? You probably had never read this issue. No. So how did the story go for you?
>> Rob: Well, there's a lot of exposition which I think is ye again.
>> Guido: So Mo. Moving that aside, it almost read like.
>> Rob: What makes this a little different than I think some of the other stories is like, this almost read like Stan was working backwards from the concept of, like, okay, so what. What if there was a blind man who then had all these other heightened senses? It could be a superhero. Like, that is a great concept and everything else to kind of get to that concept is kind of almost feels tangential to me in this.
>> Guido: Well, because most of the issue doesn't have him in costume, so it's a little boring. Like you're getting. You get a lot of his childhood. And in fact, I'll correct one thing in your synopsis. He trains his body before he goes blind. Ye. He does, because he's been called a sissy, which I hate, of course. So there's. But there's just so much backstory that has nothing to do with him being Daredevil. It's. It's. I guess it's trying to set up an explanation for how he's capable of being Daredevil. But it's not Daredevil, the hero that we.
>> Rob: But even in the early Spider man books, there's much more of a contrast between Peter Parker and Spider Man. There is, like, that Clark Kent Superman thing. You have the nerdy guy, and then he's also a superhero. I don't get too much personality or characteristics coming out of Matt Murdockh because.
>> Guido: I think it's so much a shtick. I mean, even when he's Matt, there's the whole sequences that explain his radar senses and have, like, show him, like, that he's essentially somehow pinging things as he walks through his office and then out to, like, hail a cab. He can essentially move as if he has sight. So they just spend so much time on the shtick of the blind, heightened senses that you don't really get much characterization or.
>> Rob: But what I think they'll then do later on, and certainly that Charlie Cox does on the TV series, is put on more of that Clark Kent. Like, I'm bumbling when I'm Matt Murdoch secretly. I can do all these things. But you don't really get that here in this initial.
>> Guido: No. It even feels to me like Foggy's gonna figure out that he's Daredevil right away. But he doesn't, at least. And then I have to talk about Karen, who is just awful here.
>> Rob: A beehive hairdo, like the.
>> Guido: But she. The comment she makes that she is just so upset. How could it be that such a handsome man is blind and handicapped? Like, she is just a nasty, horrible person. So it really. It's not a good start for her. No, her character is not dealt with very well later on, either. In the comics. It's actually the TV show that tries to take her in a different direction. But this is not a good start, I tell you that.
>> Rob: Well, the other thing that I felt like, again, kind of going back to my point of it being forced. Isat is also the Daredevil name. So when we, see these flashbacks, we get Matt because he's staying inside. This is before he even starts, like, exercising on his own. And the kids call him Daredevil because they're like, oh, you're really. You're really risking yourself. Turning the page on that book. But, boy, does that feel like a forced.
>> Guido: Yeah, well, Daredevil is a golden age comic character that they're using the name. I don't think there's any other connections, but there is a character.
>> Rob: So, yeah, a great be for him as the superhero. but to tie it back into, like, this was something I was called as a. As a kid being made fun of, and now I'm reclaiming it as a hero. It's like, oh, no, no, that does not work. No, no. None of these kids would have been calling him Daredevil, that's for sure.
>> Guido: Also. So I guess I wasn't alive in 1964. But Daredevil also just doesn't even feel like an insult. Like, I don't quite get how you would have used it as an insult.
>> Rob: I agree.
>> Guido: Like, you might have used it to condemn someone's behavior, but I don't get how you're insulting someone, calling them a Daredevil, even if you're doing it ironically, which they're doing. So I don't know. Yeah, there's a lot that's very forced and doesn't work, but it's fine.
>> Rob: Yeah. Yeah. I meanever, it so much feels like, as we were kind of saying at the beginning, and you also using Spider man on the COVID like, well, the formula worked with Spider man and the Daredevil's father, which is. There's so much analogous things to also the Uncle Ben character. But even going back to what we're going to the character are about to discuss, there's almost this kind of Batman element to the whole thing. The idea of avenging, your parents. And also this kind of street level. Because at this point, too, I'm thinking so much for Marvel as already being cosmic.
>> Guido: Yeah. Or fantasy. They're more fantastic.
>> Rob: This is such a. It's almost reminding me of, like, the original Superman TV show.
>> Guido: It's, well, even that his weapon crs and his weapon is his cane, but he's making it into the sort of nunchuck thing. So, yeah, I agree. It does feel like it's meant to be more street level and grounded. But I think what you're saying that the character is not there is true. We've read so many origins. I feel like even our discussion of Galactus last episode, the first issue, you see the character that we still now know 80 years later, 60 years later, and in this case, that's not true.
>> Rob: And the thing in Johnny Storm, especially, like, they're there from, like, page one.
>> Guido: So Much of this, I think, comes in the Claremont Miller run in terms of Matt Murdock being religious and dealing with that aspect of his Persona and, and all of that. So it's not here, but the origin is. And that stayed consistent.
>> Rob: Didn't Frank Miller work on another iconic character for another, for another publisher? That's my segue into the Bat Signal is going up. So it's time for exploring multiversity.
>> Guido: I am your guy through these vast new realities.
>> Rob: Follow me and ponder the question, what if? And today we are asking the question, what if Batman and Daredevil teamed up to defeat Two Face and Mr. Hyde? This is Daredevil Batman, Eye for an Eye from Marvel Comics with DC from January 1997.
>> Guido: It's written by D.D. chichester, pencilled by Scott McDaniel, inked by Derek Fisher, colored by Gregory Wright, lettered by Bill Oakley and edited by Ralph Macchio, Dennis O'Neill and Joe Andreani. And we'll give you a synopsis because it's it was a hard to track down issue until the recently released Marvel DC omnibus which we've talked about, that just came out a few months ago. But prior to that it was barely, barely reprinted due to the companies not working together. But now it's out there in the giant hardcover of all the crossovers. And before the synopsis, DG Chichester, he is the most known for the 90s Daredevil run. He did a lot of horror books outside of that, but he did the Black Suit Daredevil Run where he gets a little more devilish.
>> Rob: And Terra Inc. For Marvel.
>> Guido: Yes, and Terra Inc. Yeah, he liked the, I think the body horror a.
>> Rob: Bit, Hellraiser as well. So. Yeah, lots ofah.
>> Guido: Exactly.
>> Guido: So that's where he's coming to with this. But what happens in this book?
>> Rob: Okay, so Two Face and Mr. Hyde are tearing up New York City, stealing computer parts and leaving a trail of dead bodies in their wake. Batman has followed Harvey to the Big Apple, while Daredevil is also on the case. After a brief tussle, the two heroes tentatively agree to pair up to track down our villains. Matt Murdock actually had a moving interaction with Harvey Dent years before the act.
>> Guido: Acc when they're in law school together. Mmm.
>> Rob: And he's still convinced there's a good man somewhere underneath. Our heroes meet up with the villains and reveal to hide that two Face is secretly growing a living computer inside his brain.
>> Guido: Yeah, there's a lot in here actually about like microchips and the future of microchips being bio organic and stuff that is just interesting because we're still in a development of computer interface with human brains right now in a different way.
>> Rob: Well, everyone fights, the villains are defeated. And then we cut to a rap party at Wayne Enterprises where Matt Murdockh meets Bruce Wayne and the billionaire warns the blind lawyer not to return to Gotham City.
>> Guido: And of course, Matt's final line is quite clever when he says, are you daring me? No.
>> Rob: Because yes, we kind of know that Bruce knows who Matt Murdockh is and vice versa.
>> Guido: Yeah. So before we get into our reactions to this issue, I wantn to talk about its canonicity here. So as we talked about last episode, last episode, Superman, Fantastic Four seemed to situate that crossover either on counter Earth or on the sort of amalgam DC versus Marvel Earth where these characters knew that these other worlds existed, knew that the other characters existed, couldn't frequently get there, but could get there once in a while. This issue does two things that I think force it to be a unique standalone elseworlds. One is that Gotham City and New York City coexist.
>> Guido: Daredevil and Batman coexists. There's never any movement between worlds or dimensions. They simply exist. And Batman came to New York to deal with this issue. And then two is this retcon of the Harvey Dent Matt Murdockh origin that somehow they knew each other. So they're wrapping them their. They're tying up their worlds not just in the present, but even in the past.
>> Guido: So it's an interesting approach before we get in again to the issue, like, what do you think of that approach?
>> Rob: I think it works. I. I don't think you need to explain, oh, there was some temporal rift and now these two worlds exist together. I don't think you need that. And I think one of the most clever things about this issue is the connection between these two lawyer characters. I didn't even think going into it that that was going to be an issue.
>> Guido: Meaning two Face.
>> Rob: Yeah, with two Face and Matt Murdoc. And then as soon as it presents itself, it was like, oh my gosh, how that's so perfect. Like these are two characters that are both lawyers and like how they are both navigating the law. And of course, like one becomes a villain, one becomes a hero, but he's also still a vigilante. So I thought that was so I thought that was so smart.
>> Guido: Yeah, I agree. I think that's clever and I think it works as in Elseworlds again You don't need a big explanation. I think it is a little. Having said that, I think it is a little jarring to see Batman and Daredevil interact and have no explanation of the fact that they're interacting even a little. What else worlds typically do is they do like a little preamble at the beginning. I feel like I could have used that. I could have used a, or an uatu style, like on an Earth kind of like ours, but not quite right. Like, I could have used a sentence or two because it just launches in and you're like, wait, hold on a second. How are these two people interacting? So I think that was a little jarring for me in terms of its placement in the world and how, he was trying to position it. But I think in terms of the storytelling, I agree with you. It gave some good opportunities and kept it a little cleaner.
>> Rob: And those two characters, there's a lot of bumping heads between them kind of almost as soon as they meet. Because I think this book plays up a lot of Batman as the world's greatest detective aspect. So he's even able to determine that Daredevil is blind just through his detective power.
>> Guido: Right? He can tell. Well, it's a little. It's a bit of. He could tell that he's using his other senses. But he does give specific examples. He says, like, I can tell nostrils flare. Your nostrils flare. And I can tell that you turn your ear when you're listening. And so. But at the same, I appreciate there's an explanation.
>> Rob: And on the same time, you have Daredevil, who has all these extra sensory abilities. So he's also, in a way, a detective. He's able to determine these kind of things, and they're both like in the shadow. So I think also in that way, it works much better than if it had been like Batman and Spider Man. There would have been much more of a contrast between them rather than like a conflict because they're almost so similar in so many ways, these characters.
>> Guido: Yeah. So what was your overall impression? Did you enjoy this? Did you want more? Did you want less?
>> Rob: I really, really wanted to enjoy it because it has so many elements that I like. I love like a weird out of the box villain like Mr. Hyde popping up. And I like Two Face. And I think there is a lot of potential for Batman and Daredevil pairing up together. But I don't know, it just never. I couldn't really get my head around the story and what was actually happening. The dialogue in many cases is Written almost in a film noir kind of way. But then I couldn't tell what Two Face'real plan was. I don't know. Ipt I couldn't. There was something blocking me from getting into it. What did you think?
>> Guido: Yeah, I think I agree. And it reminds me a lot of Superman Fantastic Four in the sense that it feels like on the one hand, it needed to be longer. And on the other hand, I didn't want it to be that much longer because I didn't want filler, you know, but there was just. Feels like there were holes, things that could have been stretched and expanded upon and made really interesting and things that felt choppy. So my guess, having now had that experience rereading both of these issues, which are from around the same era, I would imagine what happened. This is my speculation. DC versus Marvel was such a unique moment where the teams were really close friends, working closely together, top to bottom. huge teams doing this. So there was such unique synergy that they could be really ambitious and take big swings. What we know from the crossovers before that, like the early days of the Spider Man Superman is like they would sit in a boardroom and go through and make sure, like, the same number of punches that one landed, the other landed and stuff like that. My guess is in this era, we're back to like, just such editorial control that these storytellersuse, certainly last episode and this one have incredible teams, people known for really strong stories. And yet somehow you and I are walking away feeling like this was not great. And so part of me I'm blaming editorial control is what I'm saying. I think there must be. Whether it's length, whether it's like they had a real publishing mandate and we'like no, you only get whatever this was 32 pages or something. And so he just had a hard time getting it in there. Or whether something was actually cut or trimmed or taken out or adjusted late in the process, I don't know. But it does feel like something happened where he had all of these ideas and then they don't totally come to fruition.
>> Rob: Well, even around that. And maybe I could. Could be completely wrong, but there's almost something about the computers in this that feel like editorial. It's 1997. We gotta get computers in this thing.
>> Guido: Well, I think that's. I think that s. I think that's his Chichester's interest do.
>> Rob: Yeah.
>> Guido: But I think again, it's underdeveloped here. And, that's, to me, feels like there was. He had to cut stuff out or something happened.
>> Rob: Two bas plan. Really?
>> Guido: Yeah. it's unclear because he's trying to grow. I mean, what you're getting, you're getting these news reports that there is this new microchip that can use like brain cells to grow itself into essentially a brain computer, a bio organic brain computer. And so he's going to grow that inside hide because by, I guess by getting Hyd, like super amped up, his powers mean he's gonna grow a really big chip in his head and then.
>> Rob: He'S just gonna sell it.
>> Guido: I don't know if this was like the Riddler.
>> Rob: You go, okay, computer chips. Or you know, there's. Or the toy man or someone like that. Like, you'd go, okay, I can see the computer connection, but with like Two Face, it's like I don't think of Two Face as a character connected to computers. So does he just want the money from it?
>> Guido: That I don't know. That's unclear to me. And I'm not a Mr. Hyde fan. I don't even know. I guess I'd associate him with Daredevil, but.
>> Rob: And then what I thought there was would have been so much more room to build there. And again, maybe this was like editorial cutting down is of course Jekyll and Hyde is like the famous two parts of the same person character.
>> Guido: I feel like there's like one line that does that, but I agree that it, it felt like that was the reason for the choice more than they.
>> Rob: Could have played these, two characters that are both kind of of the same archetype.
>> Guido: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, that part is strange. I. One thing I would have liked more of based on that final two pages is I would have liked more Bruce and Matt. I think that would have been fun to see them almost. I'm thinking like the Bruce selinaa, Batman Returns, like double entendres. Like, do we know, do we know or do we not know kind of scene. Yeah, that could have been really fun to play with Bruce or Matt. They don't have to be flirting with each other though. They could, but more just like. Like you're saying we sort of assume they've both figured it out. I would have liked to see more conversations between the two of them. Have them end up at galas together or like find a way to put them together. Becausee that is also why the tech story is in there, I think, because it's like that's where Wayne Tech is somehow involved in this thing or I don't know. It's not clear to me what all is going on. And I read it 30 minutes ago. But yeah, so I would have wanted more from that. From the two characters out of costume. I'd say is there something you would have wanted more of if this was getting fleshed out a bit?
>> Rob: Well, like I said, I think a lot with the two facease hidede relationship, but I think even more of Daredevil Batman in the costume and some of the conflict there. Because again, I think some of the conflict lies in that the characters are very similar. One thing that I also thought, like they put. Put in there, but they don't. They could have spent more time with. Is you'so used to Batman actually wanting to save Harvey, but here Batman says like Harvey'a lost cause and it's Matt that wants to save Harvey. so I thought there was more room there to explore. Why do they feel that? What is the difference then between Batman and Daredevil being that they both come from this same story of a parent dying and the sacrifice and things like that?
>> Guido: No, it definitely felt like what he was writing. I agree it wasn't fleshed out, but it felt like he was writing more of the actually like Miller or Zack Snyder Batman and positioning Daredevil as a less dark version or a more moral version, I should say. Maybe it's. Maybe what he was playing with is there're the same level of darkness, but Daredevil has this moral compass that Batman doesn't. So that's. I was getting that feeling. And that, yeah, would have been another place to go with a slightly decompressed version of this story.
>> Rob: Yeah, I could see that.
>> Guido: So there was another Batman, Daredevil called Batman Daredevil instead of Daredevil Batman only a few years later. But it is not directly related to this. What I'll say. And we'll cover it one day. Because we'll cover everything one day. Or we'll die first. One or the other. What I'll say is that one refers to them having met before. But what's not clear is does that issue take place following this, subsequent to this issue, or subsequent to the DC vs Marvel crossover where they encountered each other? So I'm not sure. But it is not a direct sequel. It's not branded it as an elseworlds and it's not the same creative team. So the Batman, Daredevil is a world to be explored again in the future.
>> Rob: And speaking of the future, why don't we spend some time pondering some possibilities? Will the future you describe be avertedertdertted Veto. What are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?
>> Guido: Well, we've spent enough time talking about Marvel and DC crossing over on screen. Though we could talk about it more because now that we've willed the comic into existence, I think that we've willed the movie crossover into exist.
>> Rob: And also, like, what was a Deep Throat said Follow the money. So sooner than later they'll go, m. If the comic sells a lot of issues, maybe that will lead to.
>> Guido: I know part of me does wonder if the comic is like a testing ground, although they don't really need a testing ground at this point. I think we all know the answer to how much money that will make. but with Daredevil immediately on the horizon, when this episode comes out, it's going to be about a week away. This is Daredevil Born Again. We have not watched the trailers, so we're spoiling nothing. But we are otherwise up to date on the MCU and have of course seen Charlie Cox's appearances in she Hulk and his brief cameo in Spider Man. So what do you want from Daredevil Born Again?
>> Rob: that's a good question. Because I feel like I was always somewhat lukewarm on the series. So I don't want to go like, I want the series again.
>> Guido: Just the Netflix series.
>> Rob: The Netflix series. So I think, well, I definitely want Moreson Wilson Fisk because I loved.
>> Guido: And I have a feeling we're gonna get that.
>> Rob: Yes, I.
>> Guido: Which was a great part of Echo.
>> Rob: O. Well, that's what I was just gonna say. I think exploring that character and Echo was one of the highlights of that series as well. although I've very much enjoyed that series as a whole. But. So I definitely think, there. And I think, I think also one of the things I never really loved too much also in the Netflix series was Foggy and Karen as the supporting characters.
>> Guido: I know. And they are back.
>> Rob: Yeah, I know they're back.
>> Guido: Which I'm not excited about either.
>> Rob: Maybe if there's some ways around around.
>> Guido: Them as I sort of wish Elect and Jessica were back. But I'm sure they're not far off. I know there's lots of rumors about. I don't think it's an announceis oh.
>> Rob: Brad Winderboaun says lot three others about their characters might be coming back.
>> Guido: I won't be surprised if Jessica or Luke shows up in this series. Cause there's been so many Christian Ritter sightings and rumors over the last three years that it's sort of Been like, where is she? so I won't be surprised if that happens. But I think, yeah.
>> Rob: What do you want?
>> Guido: Well, thinking about the character for the episode today and trying to reconcile that with the divorce I'm going through with Marvel right now, which is goingna be worse than any divorce I could ever imagine. Sorry to you, but. So you're rid.
>> Rob: You'getting rid of all your comics?
>> Guido: No, no, no. Gosh, no. But after seeing Captain Brave New World, I'm feeling the start of the divorce happening. So I just want to be really excited at. At its most basic level. I haven't felt that way about a Marvel project, with the exception of Agatha in a few years now. So I want it to be really exciting. But for me, exciting includes that it both does work on its own, as Agatha does, and also ties into a larger universe. I have a feeling that that ladder is not going to be true for this series. I fear that this is going to almost be a spotlight series like Echo was branded as. It's gonna be something that is sort of designed to stand alone. I'm really intrigued by how much retooling they did. Yes, I know that. Actually, in that announcement that they just made last week that you were mentioning where they've scrapped a bunch of series in development, the report said. I don't know if you noticed this. The report said that it was after they retooled Born Again that they changed their whole TV plan. And that's when they decided that Strange Academy, Nova, and Terror Inc. Were no longer gonna be in development. So I'm intrigued by what that means. My fear is it means the TV shows are gonna live in their own universe. And I don't like that. I don't think they should.
>> Rob: But that's, in and elsewheres, if you one could say.
>> Guido: I wouldn't mind it if it was that, because then at least they'd be sort of unshackled and could do interesting things.
>> Rob: Yes. So you, you, you mean that there'll be, They're gonna be in the MCU different enough. Yeah.
>> Guido: So it almost in the same way the early Netflix was. The early Netflix, if you remember, referred to the event.
>> Rob: Yes, yes.
>> Guido: And like as if the Avengers happened, but did not name them, did not refer to them. And that was for legal reasons. But I fear that we're gonna be in a somewhat similar place now. I'm sure there's gonna be little nods and surprises to MCU things going on. I don't know. Maybe Happy will show up like, there will be things that fit it more into the universe, but I don't want a little nod. I don't want Bucky's cameo in Brave New World. Right. Like, I want more. I need to feel excited and feel the story connect to other things. And Daredevil is. Having read the first issue for this episode, he is the street level hero in a way that no one else in the MCU so far can lay claim to. Even Black Widow or even Hawkeye, by virtue of being an Avenger. Like, Hawkeye can't be a street level hero. Now, I did see a character from Hawkeye is gonna be onborn again, which I won't spoil if no one else has seen, but I don't even know who it is.
>> Rob: So. Yeah, yeah.
>> Guido: So they're gonna. Clearly, I think the show will feel like Hawkeye a lot, but has the potential to be, a little different. Cause again, Daredevil's not been an avenger. Hawkeye's been an avenger. So I. Yeah, well, even it's interesting.
>> Rob: You say that too, because one of the. I thought maybe the season I didn't like the most of the Netflix series was maybe the second one and where they get into some of the mythical elements. And maybe it's because they moved away from him being that street Hell's Kitchen protector. Protector. And got into the mystical world. And one thing I am excited for is I see that there's six episodes announced. And I think that was.
>> Guido: Remember, they announced eight to begin with.
>> Rob: O.
>> Guido: And the retooling was like, ooph, never mind.
>> Rob: Well, one of the biggest things with all of the Netflix Marvel series was they were all way too long. A lot of them. I all felt like, oh, this would have been a much better, shorter series.
>> Guido: I think this one's nine.
>> Rob: oh, nine.
>> Guido: But they have six, like, already announced.
>> Rob: Than the 12 that had been.
>> Guido: Well, yeah. And again, they werenna be 18. Yeah. So. Yeah, well, it'll be curious. And I'm excited. I. Even though I'm not a Daredevil fan and even though I liked the Netflix series, I think what's unique about this property is we're not gonna get his origin again. He's already established which the Fox movie is his origin. The Netflix series is his origin. So I think this will be exciting, even only as a moderate fan of the character. This could be the first outing of, like, Daredevil on screen. Like Daredevil, superhero of Hell's Kitchen, but superhero on screen. So I hope it really feels like a Superhero comic book. Fun, exciting adventure.
>> Rob: You know I would just also I love for there to be. You know, because we in New York City, there's a lot of gay bars in Hell's Kitchen. Maybe he can save a gay bar. Daredevil's never done that. Is the protector of Hell's Kitchen. He's got to save a game.
>> Guido: I think our corporate overlords, we're moving in the wrong direction for that. That's true.
>> Rob: That's true.
>> Guido: I wouldn't hold doubt hope for that. Don't think that's happening. Yeah. So I think we're excited to see what's coming out of Born Again. I doubt it will be Robert Pattinson showing up as Batman, but if he does, you know, you hear hear heard it here first.
>> Rob: Yes, that's true.
>> Guido: And we have DG Chichester to thank for that crossover. So that is a wrap. Dear watchers, thank you for listening. I have been the dark devil. That's my portmanteau of Batman and Daredevil for those who didn't figure it out.
>> Rob: And I have been Rob.
>> Guido: You don't have an exciting name.
>> Rob: No. The reading list an exciting joke to.
>> Guido: Be the reading list is in the show notes. You can follow us on all social media most social mediaer watchers and leave.
>> Rob: Us a five star review where wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.
>> Guido: In the meantime, keep pondering the possibilities.
