Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Welcome to Dear Watchers in Omniversal comic book podcast, where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up the omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And, uh, your watchers on this journey are me gardening gito.

I was going to say gosh. I didn't even think of anything. Green thumb rob. But that doesn't even rhyme.

No, I think it needs you can just be Poison Rob. How about that?

Oh, sure. That's great. And now, before we begin our trip to the garden today, what's new with us, Guido?

Well, we currently have a giveaway running, so one giveaway is underway, and it's fitting for today's episode because it's our DCU Spec bundle. So if you are not listening to every single episode, then you missed the giveaway instructions last week. Go back and listen, because we want you to win, and we want you to enter our contest to win.

And we things in there.

As we announced in our centennial episode, this is our summer of giveaways, so we have more bundles we're giving away. Will today be the next one? Who knows? And it's Pride Month.

Yay.

The end of pride month. Happy Pride month.

Happy Pride month.

Yeah, we did the really great Pride Month episode last year with lots of contributions from people that have been on the show and friends who haven't been on the show. And that was a cool episode. I forgot about it. So go back and listen to our last month Pride Month episode number, whatever it was. June 2022. Uh, because it was really fun to do. I forgot about that.

And the first Pride festival we went to this year, a comic book store had a booth stall there. So maybe true comic book stores at your local Prides.

Yeah, it's fun to have comics and pride intersect. And that's exactly what we're going to do on today's episode. But before that, I have something to tell you.

Yeah, what? This sounds serious.

I'm a skrull.

Oh, my gosh. I knew it all along. Green characters and you're a green character. It all makes sense.

But I've been the same Guido for ten years. What you don't know is that I've actually also been living Jake from Spectail's life.

Oh, my gosh. And that's why I saw those receipts.

Uh, all those flights out to the middle to Nebraska.

Nebraska.

So if you want to know more about my double life, go listen to Spectacles. The spectales episode this week was guest hosted by myself and other skrull Lisa Gullickson from Comic Couples Counseling podcast, who has done her best impersonation of Jesus. So I was Jake. She was jesus. We hosted spectacles. There's actually even a mention of the series we cover today on that Spectacles episode, because I'm nothing if not vertically integrated. So go listen to spectails, our good, wonderful friends and wonderful show. If you haven't listened and uh, again, I'm hosting this week's episode. So the week that our episode comes out, their episode comes out, and you'll find out more about their secret invasion.

Mhm, is Lisa a better co host than me?

Only our listeners can tell.

Let us know in the comments. Well, if you are joining us for the first time, we have three parts of our journey today. Origins of the story. What inspired this other reality? Exploring multiversity. We dive deeper into our alternate universe and pondering possibilities. We examine the impact and what's followed or coming in the future.

And remember, we want you to leave a review wherever you're listening to us, or on a platform that you're not listening to us but you want to go, leave a review to support us. Thank you.

Mhm. And with that, dear Watchers, welcome to episode 103, and let's check out what's happening in The Omniverse with our travels to today's alternate universe. And today, we are getting our hands dirty in the deep dirt of DC, uh, and asking the question, what if Poison Ivy became a queer icon and had the sweetest relationship ever with Harley Quinn?

Yeah, indeed. And, uh, the alternate Earth we visit today is actually probably Earth Twelve. It's a little controversial, but it is the DC animated universe, so also sometimes called the DCAU. And it'll make more sense why we are using the DCAU to answer this question, even though it's implicit as we progress. This is a unique episode for us, where the what if actually has more to do with our third segment, Pondering Possibilities. But before we get into our segments, I think you are going to give some background on the creation of Poison Ivy, and I'll talk a little bit about her publication history. So start us off.

Yeah. So, Poison Ivy premiered in Batman 181 in 1966. We'll get to the more of that in a moment. When Batman was immensely popular because of the Adam West TV show she was creating.

Yeah, they were selling, I think, uh, millions of copies a, uh, year. Probably not a month, although comics have broken that. But, yeah, the TV show did crazy things for the comics.

Yeah, it was huge. And she was created by Robert Bob Kaneiger, who we actually just recently discussed on our Flash Wonder Woman multiverse episode. And cover artist Carmine Infantino alongside Murphy Anderson and Irish Knapp are also credited with the covers alongside Carmine. So I don't know why he just gets the credit. And then inside, Sheldon Maldoff did the penciling.

So maybe other people, lots of people contributed to Poison Ivy.

And in a 2007 interview with Jamie Coville, infantino said, quote, the only reason she came about was that because of Catwoman on the Batman show, they wanted more female villains that show. Because of it, we were selling millions of copies a month.

Oh, a month. See?

Uh, yeah, but that show, when it died, so did the comics.

And actually what's weird is she never appeared.

No, I know. So she never actually appeared in the TV show, which is OD because we did get other female characters like Mob Barker and the Black Widow that were on the TV show but never Poison Ivy. And in fact, after a second appearance, two issues after her debut, poison Ivy actually didn't battle Batman again until Jerry Conway's run in the early 1980s. And this seems to be a thread with her where she comes and goes throughout history.

It's so strange too. I wish maybe some of our listeners who know the Batman 66 history Show that's a project I always dreamed about a good oral history to come out of can help us understand why or maybe it's not known why she was created but then never appeared. She seems straightforward enough. Well, we'll get into and they heard design even that could easily have been translated TV.

They mhm had one of the worst villains on Batman 66, which is Milton Burrows lily the Lilac, another flower themed villain that I think also had pheromoned kind of things to knock people out. So I don't know why they went with that character instead of Poison Ivy.

But anyway, he was also supposed to be a gay icon. So there we go.

Exactly. Lily the lilac. Exactly. And some sources state that model Betty Page and even in Nathaniel Hawthorne short story Biz Odly Enough are inspirations for the character. But it's really hard to substantiate that. It seems to be an Internet kind of thing. And some claim that her name comes from the Coaster song by Lieber and Stoller from 1969 because that's a song about a femme vital that gets under your skin. And Lieber actually said in his autobiography, it's a metaphor for an STD. So there's that could be. In her first appearance, her real name is not given. But Poison Ivy's original origin actually wasn't revealed until 1978. And in, of all things, a wonder woman backup story in world's finest comics via Jerry Conway and Jack Abel. Here she was actually Dr. Lillian Rose and she worked for a promising botanist but was soon convinced to steal an ancient artifact that contained ancient herbs. Her accomplice betrayed her by poisoning her and that left her actually alive and immune to all, uh, poisons.

So that's her precrisis origin. And of course, then post Cris, cris being cris 9th and Earth in 1988, Neil Gaiman gives her an origin that is a little closer to what we understand and names her Dr. Pamela Eisley. She has a teacher who has experimented on her and during this Bronze Age time, she also joins the Suicide Squad briefly. Keeps going as an occasional Batman villain, though with very low appearances for someone so iconic. And I'll actually put some numbers to that in a moment. Until the 2000s, she's in the no man's land and hush stories for Batman that makes her a little central in 2009. Then you get the Gotham City Sirens title, which is great, and was announced as an in development DCEU movie, but then of course, canceled. So if it helps you guess, for comparison's sake, before 2011, Batman appeared in about 2400 comics. So how many do you think Poison Ivy appeared in?

Well, I'm going to guess the Joker is probably the most frequently seen Batman villain, but he does have a lot of villains. And also I have the answer in front of me. So I think it's going to be about 300 appearances.

That is cheating. It is 300 appearances. But that seems shockingly low to me.

It does.

In, uh, 50 years of an iconic classic villain, she made close to the 100 appearances. And then what's interesting is that since 2011, so of course, this is then the rebooted New Earth, new 52 rebirth continuity. She's made close to 300 appearances. So in the last ten years, she's made as many appearances as she made in the prior 50. And so in 2016, she has her first solo book, the Poison IV, Cycle of Life six issue miniseries, Cycle of Life and Death. In 2019, there's the Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy six issue miniseries, a 2021 graphic novel that's sort of non canonical part of the Ya graphic novel line, and then her 2022 solo series, which we're going to talk about today. But what's interesting, uh, since we're doing our publication history, it started as a limited series of six issues, gets announced, starts coming out. They decide to make it a twelve issue Maxi series. And then they announce that it's going to an ongoing and that is just, uh, so unusual in comics these days. Typically, things will come back for second volumes or additional miniseries, but to have a series go get an extension and then become an ongoing speaks to the popularity of it. And so we'll talk about that in a few minutes.

Also, if you go to a comic book shop or you go to a Comic Con, it is a pretty frequented character. You see right on a lot of posters and doing a lot of cosplay. I think Harley is probably number one in the Batman universe at least. But you see a lot of Poison Ivy. And it does seem like you see so much more of her than when I was growing up. I wonder if her not being on Batman 66 was one of the reasons why she wasn't in a lot of the comics as much. Because that show was so resonated so much with fans. Maybe they were like, oh, she wasn't on that show, so we're not going to include her as much in the comics.

I don't know, because that doesn't explain the quite as much. But what was your personal background with Poison Ivy?

My personal background was really her on screen appearances. Because as you said, I don't think she was really in the comics that much. And, um, that was really the Batman Animated Series portrayal that we're going to talk about a little bit more later. And probably maybe even more so because I don't think she's on too many episodes. Probably is, uma, Thurman's iconic performance in the, of course, excellent Batman and Robin film.

Because that's sarcasm, by the way, if it doesn't read, that's sarcasm.

But, uh, that film I did watch a lot growing up. Batman Forever, as I mentioned on a recent episode. That was the first Batman film I really got into. But Batman and Robin was pretty close. So, uh, probably those were my introductions to her. How about you?

It started the same, I think, uh, as a comics fan. She shows up in Nightfall. She shows up in some big events that I would have been loosely familiar with. But it is the Animated Series in particular until really her and Harley. So I read Gotham City Sirens. Great series. And then I did follow I wasn't a huge Harley fan, but I followed their relationship just as, ah, at that point, new queer relationship and new queer character. And I've been reading her solo series as it comes out. It's one of the few books I am eager for every month when it comes out. And I'm happy to tell people to go read. So I've become recently a huge fan of the character and don't have an extensive background. So this was fun to do today.

Mhm so let's plant some seeds and water them with my green thumb. Or should I say green bill finger? It's origins of the story and m speaking of Batman 66, we're going back to 1966, but not Batman 66. It's Batman 181 from DC Comics. Came out in June 1966. And it's called Beware of Poison Ivy.

Written by Robert Hanniger. Penciled by Sheldon Maldoff. Inked by Joe Diella. Uh, lettered by Gaspar saladino edited by Julie Schwartz. We read it because it is, uh, the first appearance of Poison Ivy. So this was my first time reading this book ever. And I've actually been sort of flirting with buying it because our local comic store has a copy and I've been really tempted, but I never read it until reading it for this episode.

Mhm and there's other female villains in this comic as well. I don't know if they were real actual characters, but yeah, there's a whole host of female villains here.

It is strange. And so for those who have not read it, it's pretty widely accessible. So I'd say go read it because it's a weird story. But what Rob is referring to is there are the public enemies number one, two, and three, who are Dragonfly Silken, Spider, and Tiger Moth. And a big part of Poison Ivy's plot, which is ultimately both to become the number one villain and also female villain. She does number one female villain. Make sure and also to end up with either Bruce Wayne or Batman. She can't quite decide. But she then does almost I don't know. It's like an Abbott and Costello. Like she sets up each of the other villains to fight each other with fake letters. Yeah.

You've seen in so many sitcoms where they're trying to get two people back together and they both say, like, oh, they send each other letters only. And then it's not just them. It's like a whole bunch of other villains.

Every other villain comes. Yeah. A ridiculous turn of events that results in, of course, her getting arrested. What did you think of the origin of M? Not even the origin. What did you think of this introduction of the character?

Well, I think a lot of the fundamentals of her character are there. She's got a lipstick. She's got the chloroform lipstick. Chloroform lipstick, which she has.

I like that she needs to have filters over her nostrils so she doesn't knock herself out. That's a fun detail.

I guess she's not a poison immune here yet, but I don't think she.

Has any powers other than they do say she can climb the wall and.

Like I the craziest power is that yeah, she's climbing the wall like Ivy. But I think enough fundamentals are there with the romance there and all the stuff that I think we also think of for Catwoman as well, where there's the dichotomy of the kind of like Bruce Wayne, uh, kind of like, uh, Lois and Superman, where there's this kind of love triangle between two people, kind of right.

Ivy is going to is loving both Batman and Bruce Wayne. But there's no jealousy or anything. She's sort of just like, oh, I'll take either.

Exactly. She even says the two bees. And I was like, oh, yes, there's two bees. It's like the two Martha's. Uh, I wonder if they then decided, oh, we're going to develop that much more with Catwoman later on. Because it's definitely something that you see as a part of that relationship there.

Well, I think Catwoman learns, uh, fast about who Bruce is, which is why their relationship always transcended. But the other thing about this is Robin is just such a ridiculous character and is, of course, wanting to be attracted to the women. But Bruce is telling him he's just not old enough. And the other thing is the COVID I have to mention the COVID sets up that the story is going to be that Poison Ivy somehow gets in between Bruce and Robin, which is a really funny homo erotic, I have to imagine. I mean, at this point, this is post seduction of the Innocent. So the story that Batman and Robin are gay is out there. So this idea of putting her, like, trouble between the dynamic duo is she the cause, like she's breaking up their relationship. There's something that reads is gay about that, but it never shows up in the issue itself.

It's just the COVID Batman's kind of useless in this issue because he's just constantly and Bruce, too, is constantly just smitten with poison ivy. It really is Robin who's the one that comes through in the end. And like you said, there's this awkward thing where he's kind of lusting after her too, but he's also kind of the teenage boy where it's like, uh, girls are a little gross. He just is trying to wants, uh, his surrogate father figure to be with him.

Yeah. Uh, so while it's so silly silver Age, clearly there's sadly, a surprisingly small number of puns. But probably the best one comes in the final panel when she says, I warn you, Batman, once you've caught poison Ivy, you'll never get rid of it. I love that they have her in jail and that's her promise to return. So I think that's a cute moment.

Yeah, it's a fun issue, and I think the art is fun. And I think you mentioned the COVID and Carmine Infantino's art on the COVID Very different kind of style than Sheldon Maldoff's cover art. Inside, there's a lot more details. In fact, Batman and Robin kind of.

Look a little weird on the COVID That sort of exaggerated. It almost looks like underground comics with an X. It does exaggerated because her face, too.

Has all these kind of details and lines. And then when you see her in the comics, she looks very stereotypical of a female character.

Generic pin up illustration. Mhm for sure. So fun, simple introduction could make sense why we see so little of her for so many decades. So I'm ready to move on.

Mhm. So now we are going to harvest our crop of exploring multiversity.

I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if?

And today we are returning to the world of Batman The Animated Series. This is season one, episode 47 from January 1993, and it's entitled Harley and Ivy.

This is directed by Boyd Kirkland, written by Paul Dinney, and it's starring, importantly, Arlene Sorkin and Diane Pershing with our Harley and Ivy characters. It is again. Probably Earth.

Twelve.

It's the DCAU. Just a little background on this episode before we dive into it. This is, uh, four months after Harley's debut. For people who don't remember. Harley Quinn debuts on the Batman the Animated Series. She's not in comics yet. And Denny had wanted to give Poison Ivy a friend that was not an underling, that was more of an equal, and said it was really the voice actors. So Arlene and Diane, who created the chemistry, they just clicked and really got it. And there's a great oral history, actually, with all three of them on Yahoo from back in 2016. They talk about really digging up the motivation of the characters and the friendships and how they were feminist and they couldn't just be two dimensional, evil women, and they had the idea that Harley's codependence and sort of neediness with Joker was being balanced by Ivy's independence. And they were teaching each other a little bit in that way, ivy teaching Harley to let go of Joker and Harley teaching Ivy to rely on people a little bit more. And it was in fact, this episode that Deeney then later said is what made him realize who Harley as a character was prior to this. She was just second banana to Joker the few times she showed up. And this pairing shows up in Holiday Nights in 1990, seven's new Batman Adventures, which is just a continuation, uh, of this show, and then Superman animated series, which is also a continuation of this world. They're in an episode. Girls night out in 1998. They live with each other after this episode that we watched, and they continue to live with each other through that Superman episode. And in fact, in the Superman episode in 1998, there's a quick moment of jealousy about another woman. So there's some hints there and we'll get to the queerness in our next segment. But let's start with this episode. This episode lives forever in my brain. This episode was probably my favorite episode of the show growing up. And so I remember watching it all the time, every time it was on, which, of course, the show is syndicated constantly. So every time this episode was on, I was happy. I love this episode. How about you? Do you love it? What do you?

Oh, yeah, it's great now, but growing up, I didn't like the female villains.

You hated women.

Uh, I do remember the episode very well. Just rewatching it now for this episode, for our recording. It just all comes back. But I think it's interesting, too, that just shows you how much of the DNA of the characters on the Harley Quinn adult animated show are there in terms of Poison Ivy being the straight woman, this more serious one, and Harley being the kooky one, and also how it's a classic kind of Avenue Costello set up as well there.

That's what's cool, to read the Paul Dinny stuff and realize that I see what he means that he created the character Harley through this episode because when she's with Joker, she is just a Joker light mhm. It's really when you put her with Ivy, who I don't know if I'd call her the straight man, but Ivy is certainly the drier one. The drier, sort of more mature, grounded one, but she has her own wit and oh, no humor about her.

Yeah, uh, it's definitely sarcasm, though, versus, like, the outright gifts that Harley has.

Their dynamic cemented it, which is why this is our alternate universe on this episode, because their dynamic is in this episode. And now, whatever we are, oh, we're exactly 30 years later, this is the same dynamic that we are still living with in these characters because of this episode.

Yeah, well, it's interesting because we were talking about Batman 66, the TV show, a bit at the top. And all of those male villains always had the sexy female villain that had that accomplice who was kind of themed after them a little bit. And Harley is very much that on The Animated Series. But here it feels like they're using this episode to really comment on that type. And it's like, oh, here's the female sidekick. But she's also constantly being put down by her male counterpart. And you really see this, especially as an adult, how much Harley has this mentality where no matter what Joker does, she's coming back to her. And that Poison Ivy is really the voice of reason in the episode.

Yeah, and helping her break out of an abusive relationship, which is, again, uh, a recurring theme in different iterations of this story being told. But Diane Pershing and Arlene sorkin talk a little bit about that in this oral history, just how feminist they saw Deene's script. And that's why they really grabbed onto it and unearthed these motivations of these characters. And it's what makes this episode, I think, just work so well. It's so entertaining and interesting and both on the surface it's fun, but then as you peel back the layers, it is really dynamic and emotional and deep.

Yeah, and it's not a Batman less episode. He is in there and he has some lines, but he's definitely in the background so much in this episode. If there is another third character, it's really Mark Hamill's, Joker, who gets a few really funny laughs and moments in there as well. But it's really about the three of those characters together. And really Batman just kind of there. It kind of reminded me in that way of some of the One Bad Days, where it's really focusing on the villains and then Batman has to be in there because it's a Batman book.

M. It is similar to that. This, I'd say, is one good day. This is one great day. This is their best day. This is the day they met. This is the origin story of this love. So I think this is their one great day, I'd say. I think before we move on from it, we mentioned the, uma, thurman on screen appearance and we did watch Batman and Robin in the background a little bit for this episode. I think whatever about that movie and that performance, what's hard is I think this show has created these characters in so many of our brains, certainly anyone our age, but I imagine even younger people who discover this show and older people who were enjoying this show, but, uh uh, in a different way when it was coming out. I think these are the representations of these characters. So I find it hard to imagine. I don't need a Poison Ivy that's going to sound and look exactly like she does here. But I'm going to need to feel a connection to it, which Uma Thurman has not. I'd say we can talk about the Batwoman depiction a little later because that one actually is more influenced, I'd say, than Umar Thurman certainly is. But that's the biggest appearance. She's in Gotham. Apparently, you and I didn't watch Gotham. Um, she shows up in other DC animated stuff. But really, the Uma Thurman is totally distinct from this one.

Well, I don't think you and I had ever realized this. Uh, well, certainly not as a kid. But you and I are big May West fans, and we were watching Batman and Robin going, wait, is Uma Thurman doing May West?

But only in that one scene. That's what's inconsistent about her performance in that sometimes she sounds like she's, like, from New York, which I guess May West is from New York, too, but she sounds like a different version of.

William Shatner in there, too, in terms of some of it. Uh, but what's interesting is in the movie, she's really leaning into the sexuality there. And it is that May West thing where it's like super heightened sexuality. I think Diane Pershing's depiction of the character, she's having the men come to her. Right. And I think with Thurman, it's more like she's going to them.

She's being seductive.

And I think of Diane Pershing, I think there is a lot of DNA of like a Julie Newmore Arthur Kit from that there, where it's a little more laid back. And I also almost hear almost kind of like a b Arthur kind of thing, too, where there's that sarcasm that's underlining all of it. Yeah, I think it's a much more effective way to play the character than Uma Thurman plays it in the movie.

Yeah, I agree. I think this performance is what made the character an icon. And this is also the performance, the episode, the string that launched the ship of um, Harley and Ivy. So these characters were shipped forever. And I think this is the episode that did it. And I'll give a little background on why in our next segment, I don't think we need to talk about returning to this universe. Because, again, this episode, our question lives more in the third segment. So I'm ready for it.

Well, it's time to harvest and serve up our final segment pondering possibilities.

Will the future you describe be averted? Diverted? Diverted.

I'm just itching to know. Poison ivy reference.

What are we talking better than the harvesting?

Yes. What are we talking about? For our pondering possibility? So can you scratch my itch?

Well, before we get to what we're talking about, which is a very recent comic, I'm going to give some background on her queerness, because that is what we're talking about. Though we are going to use one issue to do that. So Paul Denny actually does talk about his intention to make it a romantic and sexual relationship. So he said. That as he started writing them, he realized they needed to get together. But he knew a children's cartoon in the 90s would not allow for this. So there's a few fun jokes, even as early as 1994, in the holiday special comic, which he's contributing and writing to, there's Batgirl making a funny joke about them being more than friends. It's really cute. So 99 is when Harley debuts in comic lore outside of the, uh, animated series adaptations. Dinny writes it and Ivy shows up from the very onset. And there's some dynamic to the relationship in terms of Joker and Ivy trying to support Harley getting out of that relationship. It's 2001. There's a Gotham Knights comic that Denny's writing, which starts to hint at Ivy being in love with Harley. There's a 2004 series that's again, set in the animated universe. It's really in the Birds of Prey series. The Gotham City Sirens, right before the Birds of Prey in the new 52 starts to hint at do they love each other. And Harley has this moment saying, like, do you love me more? It's 2013. Jimmy Palmiadi and Amanda Connor get to actually make her queer to a certain extent because they have Harley, for example, in the first issue, refer to her as her hot girlfriend. But it's still people could say my girlfriend and mean their friend. That's a girl. It's 2015 during Pride Month that DC Comics Twitter confirms they are in an open romantic lesbian relationship. So it's pretty cool that, again, Jimmy Pelmiani and Amanda Connor are playing with the most overtly in the comics canon. It's Twitter. That does it. Then 2016 Bombshells, which is an alternate universe that we've talked about before, features their first kiss. So their first kiss in a comic is actually in an alternate universe, and then they kiss again in the alternate universe. Comic injustice in 2017. So it's almost like DC is like testing the waters before they decide to allow them to be queer in the prime core canon of the main universe.

There's kisses in these, uh, same sex kisses in these comics than we've seen in any Marvel movie. So there you go.

Or Marvel Comics for that matter. So it's later in 2017 that they share their first kiss in the prime universe. Although what's interesting is the artist in 2021 actually tweeted out the original art and shows that he originally had them kissing on the lips full, like making out kiss. And in the final art, they drew on lips onto Harley so it looks like they're kissing on the cheek. So even in 2017, when they have their first kiss, DC is censoring. It still so pretty remarkable. But they've since leaned into it. In 2021, uh, the Ya graphic novel Thorns redoes her origin, and it may not be canonical because it's part of the Ya graphic novel series, but she's always queer at that point, has early queer relationships. And then we get the May 2020 animated series Harley, where they kiss and have been together since. But that's not till the second season. And of course, the Batwoman TV show in January 2022 debuts the Pamela Eisley. Poison Ivy, and she is a lesbian on that very lesbianic show. And she's since been canonically queer and with Harley in the comics. So we, for this, read one of the most recent issues of her solo series. Tell us what it was.

Well, I was thinking before, uh, I mentioned that Poison Ivy might have taken her name from a libra and stoller song. They also wrote Love Potion Number Nine. And here's a love Potion Number Nine. It's poison Ivy number nine from TC comics. April 2023. And this is just entitled chapter nine. And of course, the question we're asking is what if Poison Ivy became a queer icon and had the sweetest relationship ever with Harley Quinn?

And this is written by the series writer, G. Willow Wilson, penciled by Marcio Takara, who also does inks colored by Arab Priyanto, lettered by Hassan atsimane Elahu Sorry, edited by Ariana Terturo. We read this because it's the first time in Harley's, um, Ivy solo series that Harley shows up and we get to see their relationship. So this was your first time reading this series, any of this series you read? Just this issue. What was your reaction to this issue? That I just adore, so you better like it?

No, I did love it. And it reminded me so much of the, uh, or share so much DNA with the Harley animated series. It's a lot more toned down than that one is. That series leans, I think, more into the comedy. And this has a lot more believability and realism in it. But I loved it. And I also loved kind of the metaphor of the I forget what they're.

Exactly called, but the spores, the Lamia spores is a big part of what's going on with her powers and what had happened in Batman comics prior to the solo series, too.

And uh, just how that way that it changes and it gets very hallucinatic and very magic mushroom kind of thing. And how that idea is also kind of a metaphor for how love changes the way that we see the world and that they're working, those two things are working together. And it's never super overtly said, but.

It'S just kind of there, I think that whole exploration. I think this is probably one of the most beautiful comics about a relationship ever, because it's not just the way that you're transformed by love and these spores, they have this hallucinogenic moment. It's the way the narration of Ivy keeps talking about the way Harley sees the world. And I find it to be just this incredibly moving and compelling way that as two human beings who decide to share a life in whatever form people do that in, in this case, it appears they are still not totally monogamous that actually shows up in this series. But they love each other. Even though they're apart, they are committed to each other. They are a part of each other's lives, and the way that everyone has a different worldview and what does that mean? And in fact, part of being in a partnership is that the other person's worldview starts to influence and inspire you and open your worldview and change your thinking. And in this case, Harley helps her stop being afraid of her own powers and stop being afraid that she's going to do something bad or be consumed by her powers. And I love the way that just worldview is a part of this story.

Yeah. Because we start off with Pamela being isolating herself, and Harley kind of is the one that's breaking down those barriers for her and really having her reintroducing her to the world in many ways.

Yeah. Well, the whole series, she's gone slowly across the country trying to get away from Gotham. And so this is her first link back. And then I showed you the final two pages of issue twelve, where she does end up going back to Gotham finally, and sees Harley again. And I just think there's some of the most beautiful language that Jewel Wilson is writing, and it actually moves me to tears when I read it, because it's really cool. She says, that's an issue twelve. She says, Sometimes home is a person, the one person who makes all the terrible things in the world feel manageable. And you just have this kooky Harley like poking out from behind a tree. And it's amazing. They have this amazing relationship. And I think it's always been really amazing and compelling. But G will Olson's words I just think are extraordinary here.

Well, I like the metaphor, too, that she has in this issue where Pam thinks some of her powers are gone, but Harley says, no, they're still in there. And I think you could see that so much for Pamela's humanity, her queen.

Well, and she says, can't you just let it grow back like a plant? And then I love that exchange. There is a little humor where she says, harley, you're a genius. And she says, I do got that PhD.

Yeah. So it's great. Not as much as the TV show, the animated TV show does, but it is nice that she peppers in these things. So it's definitely never sacred in that way, because there's always that little bit of spice that's thrown on at the end.

Yeah. And I love the other humorous moment is when, uh, Ivy says, a bird may love a fish, but where would they live? When Harley's asking her to go back to Gotham and she says, Silly, the answer to your question is penguins and penguins live in Gotham. I love that. Exactly. Yeah. Ah, everything about this issue, this series, but this issue, and the art, I think is beautiful.

Yeah, the hallucination, uh, moments are especially really awesome.

Yeah. So it's so cool that again, here we are 30 years later, and this episode, this creation of Paul Dinney, which he really wanted to do, ultimately, he wanted to have them explicitly queer. Took, uh, 30 years. But here we are. His alternate universe Earth Twelve depiction has created a canonical queer relationship and a queer icon. In Poison Ivy and Harley, both mhm.

In them becoming queer, they have both kind of moved, not because of this, but maybe because of this, they've both moved out of really the realm of villainy. Right.

Yeah. I mean, Ivy is the most recently, and that's what she's dealing with here, is that she sort of got consumed by actually her former mentor and gets corrupted and has this power and ends up being somewhat evil. Pretty evil. So she's still grappling with that. But yeah, she's definitely more an anti hero than a villain. And Harley is completely an anti hero at this point. I don't even know if there's ever been a villainous Harley in comics. I think it's just set up that she had some past and she is willing to cross a line. But I don't know of a villainous depiction.

Yeah, because I'm not a big Batman reader. But thinking of all his female villains, these two on top of with Catwoman, with Talia Al Goul, they're all more on, um, the anti hero side than outright villains. I wonder, is that a gender thing? While someone like the Joker and the Riddler and other characters get to be just outright villains.

There well, the Riddler, I think, has been more of an anti hero, especially in the last ten years when he's fighting the Joker in the war of Jokes and Riddles, which we covered in an episode when we did Riddler One Bad Day. And then you have like, Rachel Ghoul, who even in One Bad day is more of an anti hero. Like, he's doing horrible things, but he's doing it because he thinks he's saving the Earth, ultimately. So, yeah, I do think women tend to be depicted more emotionally complex and less as a two sided villain, at least recently. It's funny then, to read that oral history of the original episode, because part of what the voice actors were drawn to was that or trying to do, actually, was not have them be just two dimensional evil women archetypes. So there is an archetype somewhere. But you're right, a lot of Batman's villains subvert that archetype, perhaps.

Yeah, I would love to see an out and out female, um, baddie. And Batman. I'm sure there has been someone, but maybe reintroducing someone. But I guess also, the longer these characters are around, a lot of them just tend to go, ah, it's even like in the Joker film, right. And we've seen it in Clayface and a lot of other characters, I guess once they're around for a certain amount of time, we go, okay, we have to have them be kind of the antihero realm.

Well, in popularity, obviously, too, because Harley is often likened to and is very in a lot of ways similar to Deadpool Total Red Fourth, Wall Breaking all that. Both started as villains. Both became quickly super popular, and therefore had to be written as anti heroes so that you could watch compelling, read, watch, engage compelling stories about them and not feel like you're doing something bad. Yeah. So I love these two characters. I love their queerness. I love DC for finally embracing it fully. They even have done great variant covers with the two of them. There's some coming out right now, this month for Pride Month. I really love it and I hope it translates to something on screen at some point, whatever the future of that DCU is, as we talked extensively in our episode last week, I hope that these two show up like this. Now, we know in the Joker sequel that's not going to be the case, and I don't really care about that movie. But, uh, yeah, I look forward to Poison Ivy like this.

I think it's because, as you said, it's so popular with fans and The Animated Series is popular. It does feel somewhat inevitable that we will see these two characters as a couple on screen for me.

But The Animated Series definitely satisfies that need for now. That show is so good. So anyone listening who remotely likes these two characters who has not seen that show really needs to go check that show out because, my gosh, if you weren't shipping them already, you would ship them after that show because they are adorable in that and is quite fun. Uh, anything else to say on these two, Poison Ivy and Harley? Quinn?

No, this was a great little exploration. I know we've covered The Animated Series before, but it was really great to see these characters and also see how they've evolved and see how the Animated Series really to go back to our metaphor sowed the seeds of what we would get eventually.

It did. Um, and the last thing I'll say is, uh, our listeners should go to Comic Book Couples Counseling podcast, if you're not listening to that. A few years ago, they covered Harley and Ivy. So it was a few years ago. It was right after, I think they became canonically comic mainstream universe queer. And there's a few episode season, if you will, of comic book couples counseling exploring Harley and Ivy. And it is definitely worth listening to. So go check that out from 2020 in their back catalog.

Was that before? After Lisa was replaced by a skrull?

No, Lisa's always been a skrull. She was never replaced. Uh, she's just always been a skrull. She replaced Jesus. So go listen to spectales. Go listen to comic book couples counseling podcast. Go read Poison Ivy and otherwise. That is a wrap for us this week. We are not doing a giveaway this week, so you got to keep listening this summer. But if you want to enter the DCU Spec bundle, listen to last week's episode for instructions on how to enter.

Thank you for listening. I have been Rob.

I've been Keto, and the reading list.

Is in our show notes. And you can follow us on social media at dear watchers and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.

In the meantime, in the words of Wattu, keep pondering the possibilities mhm.

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