Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Welcome to Dear Watchers in Omniversal comic book podcast, where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up the omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey are me Gito. I didn't think of a clever name that time. I tried for a moment.

And me Rob. Or is it.

He'Ll? Just do the sound effect.

Yeah.

Transform should have inserted a studio sound effect, though, because that's kind of gross.

Yes, everyone's hearing that in their ears while they're at the gym right now. And before we begin our trip today, guido down to the muddy sewers of Gotham. What's new with us in our little.

He doesn't live in the sewer.

Does he live? No, but he's well, when it rains, he gets washed down into the gutters. Yeah. What's new?

If you're listening to this, we appreciate you. It's been 96 episodes, which means it's been over 96 weeks, because we have a few bonus episodes we didn't count for, I guess. Nice. I don't know, whatever. However time works.

Close enough.

Confusing. But we're a few episodes away from 100, which is 100 weeks. We have never missed a week, which I'm shocked. I thought for sure we would, and we've had.

This week was a rough one.

It was busy. And we are recording this very last minute. But it was over 100 hours of time we've spent together, listeners. So thank you. We do it because we love to, but we also, as we've been saying the last few episodes, want to grow. When we pass 100, or even for 100, we want more people who might enjoy to join us. Uh, listen, engage us online. So, please, if you are listening, take a moment when you're done, to share this episode with a few people who would like it or post about it online. That would really be appreciated.

It was my birthday this week, so a belated birthday present you can all give me is to write a review on Apple podcast or tell a friend about this show. And if you're joining us for the first time, we have three parts of our journey today. Origins of the story, what inspired this other reality? Exploring, multiversity. We dive deeper into our alternate universe and pondering possibilities. We examine the impact and what's followed or coming in the future.

And remember, you can find us on Coffee, where we're posting about the stuff we're doing, including our spinoff series, available to members and patrons. So that's Coffee, which you can find at, uh, dearwatchers.com and click join.

And with that, Dear Watchers, welcome to episode 96, and let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travels to today's alternate universe. And today, we head to the strangest alternate universe of all. Hollywood.

La la land.

Yes, Hollywood in California. As fori ackerman, would call it in famous monsters, well, that kind of is.

Very fitting for today, actually.

It is.

We'll find out why.

Yes. And our question is, what if Clayface had one bad day in Hollywood?

Very simple question. But that's because this is from an Earth that is an unknown designation. It's a rather recent alternate universe in the DC multiverse, but we're going to call it Earth OBDC for one bad day, clayface all the one bad days are independent Earths from each other. They're not even the same Earth. And they're one shots, so they haven't been numbered. And they're recent. But we did cover the first one bad day, Batman one bad day back in episode 64 in September 2022. So you can go listen about Riddler's. One bad day when you are done today listening to Clayface's one bad day.

And your alternate Earth has DC right in it OB D C. So look how perfect that is for a Batman comic.

Yeah. Wow, look at that.

Now a bit on, um, the character himself, though. We won't we're going to get into his origin in a bit. And there are lots and lots and lots and lots of different versions of Clayface. There's over eight. So we're just going to give a very high overview of them because otherwise this would be a very long podcast.

Yes, it would. Someone could do an entire podcast series on Clayface.

I'm sure someone out there has or will. So the first clay face is Basil Carlo, who we're going to talk more about in our first section. And Basel was a master of disguise, but he had no powers, at least at first.

But he did have a name that is pretty recognizable, I'd say. And we can get more into his origin. But Basil Carlo sounds to me like they're kind of going for Boris Carloff, do you think?

Totally true. Totally. Boris Carloff. Exactly. I think we're going to get more into it. But there's also Basil Rathbow and another big horror actor. So you got Basil. Just sounds a little creepy, weird. No offense to anyone named Basil out there.

I know that that name is still used, but maybe it's time to bring it back. So onward.

Yes. The second clay face, created by Bill Finger and Sheldon Maldarf in 1961, was a treasure hunter. That's an outdated profession named Matt Hagen, who discovered a pool of goo that transformed him into a mud clay like creature that could change his shape into anything he wanted. But Hagen had to return to the pool to restore his powers ever so often. So this is like the look and powers that we kind of all know from Clayface. The third clay face, Preston Payne, was created by Len Wine and Preston Rogers in 1978. He looked like a big pile of Clay, but he couldn't change his appearance. Instead, he needed an exoskeleton to keep himself together. And he could actually melt people with his touch. Keto, do you know this clay face at all?

No, sure don't. I don't think I had any idea that there were even this many, let alone one was a pile of Clay. One could melt you.

Uh, he looks like mud, but can't transform his appearance. So he has the worst of all the worlds, basically. And the last Clay face we wanted to touch on is a female Clay face, sometimes called Lady Clay.

No. Come on. If anyone is calling her Lady Clay, stop now.

Yes, she is Sandra Fuller and was created by Mike W. Barr and Jim Aberron in 1987. And she basically has the same powers as Matt Hagen. And Clayface one, three, and Four actually formed the Mud Pack together, kind of like a band. And Payne and Fuller actually became a couple and had a child together that, guess what? Also has Clayface powers and becomes another Clay face. And there are many more Clay faces. All those four Clay faces are actually all still active in the DC universe as well. And there was even one Clay face that was hit with a Joker toxin and becomes Clown face.

And a little more on Clayface in the multiverse because there are so many versions. As you mentioned, the version we're looking at is an alternate universe version, but of what is right now basically considered the canonical DC Universe, sometimes called Prime Earth. This is the post rebirth, reboot, and post infinite frontier continuity that we're in right now of the DCU, which has tried to sort of merge and reconcile pre Crisis, post Crisis, Infinite Crisis, all sorts of Dark Crisis, Final Crisis, everything. New 52 try to reconcile it all. So that's what we're riffing on. But in the multiverse of Clayface, he was also, we discovered, in the Batman 66 credits, though he never appeared, being replaced by false face for live TV show he's been in Birds of Prey, Gotham, Pennyworth, so almost every Batman cartoon, including The Animated Series, which we'll discuss a little bit today, harley, which we'll also get to. And of course, earlier this year, it was revealed that Mike Flanagan had done a spec story for Clayface that was passed over, which is really a shame. And we'll get into the future of him on screen because it seems almost certain that he's going to be in the Batman Two in Matt Reeves DCU world. And that's not coming till 2025. But we will get much more into his future in our third segment today.

Yeah. And even in some of those Gotham and Pennyworths, I think they even created new Clay faces. They didn't even use the ones in the comic of which there's a million. They needed to create even new ones. So there are so many Clay faces. But, Gito, what is your background with anyone who happens to be named Clayface?

Very minimal, other than probably what's true for a lot of people my age and casual comic fans, which is obviously the Batman villains, even if you've never read them. So I didn't even know their real names, the Clayfaces. And then, uh otherwise, I knew the animated series quite well. We watched Harley and I saw Clayface. He popped up for a short story in Wonder Woman. I read that. And James tinyan's run of Batman. I read that. So I've read Clayface. But I really don't know a whole ton. This was an education today. How about you growing up?

I don't think I ever read him in an actual comic. The main way I knew Clayface was the Ron Perlman performance from Batman the Animated Series. And that's kind of the classic Clayface look. But then I was a big reader of DC who's. Who. So I did know there were three Clay faces. The Basil Carlo drawing in DC. Who's who is this really weird draw? He's got a green face and he's wearing all purple. It's kind of a cool he's got a knife. It's kind of a cool look.

Very joker looking.

Yeah. And it's like, wait, this guy doesn't even have powers, but he's Clayface. And then they got the other guy who can melt people, and he has his head in, like, a big glass jar. That's what keeps his head there. And then the Matt Hagen one, which looks like the kind of classic, um, golem, um, Clay face monster kind of thing. Exactly. Uh, with you watch the amazing performance of Alan Tudic on Harley Quinn as well. But, yeah, this was really the first I've ever read Clayface in actual comics. So let us start at act one for our point of origin.

I wish I had a clapboard effect here.

Oh, yes, exactly. It's origins of the story.

Right now on this very show, you're.

Going to get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago. Okay, we're going all the way back here to Detective very far back. Very far. The US. Has yet to enter World War II. Early on. Um, it is Detective Comics number 40 from DC Comics Appropriately from June 1940. And this is called The Murders of Clayface.

Written by Bill Finger, penciled by Bob Kane, inked by Jerry Robinson, lettered by Jerry Robinson and edited by Whitney Elsworth. So this is the OG detective Comics team who worked on Batman, who have now created Clayface. We read this because it is the first appearance of anyone ever called Clayface. This is the Basil Carlo clayface. And a brief summary, I guess, of this very dense, fast paced story is that Basil is a movie actor. Uh, makeup artist. Movie makeup artist.

Well, he's an actor too, right? I think he's like eloncini. He does his own makeup and he's an actor. I think that was part of the model that Kane and Finger were using.

Yeah. And then, I don't know, he starts killing people. I can't remember why yesterday.

And they don't know who it is.

So it's a mystery, which is cool. It's a very pulp noir story where they don't know who it is. It's revealed at the end that it's hem, but he's just under makeup, so he has no special powers. And that's the briefest summary I could give for something I didn't remember details of. It's got a very 24 hours ago.

Giallo murder, maybe Agatha Christie Giallo kind of thing where we see people are getting murdered. We don't know. Every single time it's Bruce is there. Bruce is there visiting his girl, his fiance, who's an actor. This is a character that hasn't popped up a lot. Julie, right?

No, Julie. I don't even know who Julie is. And I do know a good amount of Batman lore, but my gosh, I.

Don'T know who Julie julie's in a movie. Bruce is there with his pipe on the set, and people are being killed there on the set. And we meet Basil very early on, and he's kind of handing over the mantle of some of his famous characters to a younger actor, but he's not really a suspect. He's kind of this just introduced, and then we're meeting all the other people. Oh, it's like and I guess the Christie thing, everyone's got to be a suspect. And at the very end and the person the killer, I should say, is disguising himself in the makeup of an old character, which is called Clayface. So he's wearing a mask. And the ending I mean, I don't know, Guido, if this is what it reminded you of, but it was giving me big Scooby Doo vibes because it's very much at the end where it's like, uh, who is that person? And they rip it off and it's like, oh, my gosh, it's you.

And of course, it's that way before Scooby Doo. Perhaps this was an inspiration to some of those creators because yeah, it's like a hokey, silly suspension of disbelief ending. Although it's fun. I can imagine reading this and not knowing it was going to be him. So it really probably is a mystery, obviously, going into it, knowing that Basil Carlo is Clayface. I knew who the killer was. But they really do conceal the mystery throughout. I, uh mean, the stakes aren't very high. I don't really care. Yes, a few people die, but you have no idea who they are, basically. So yeah, it's very classic Batman. I mean, I think Bob Kane, for whatever credit he deserves for creating Batman in this issue, I don't love his art. I don't know if he's rushed at this point or if he's sort of over it. I have no idea, really. But the art is fast. The pacing, like I said, though, is wild. You go from panel to panel and you just jump from scene to scene to scene. So it's a very dense, though, short story because it's part of the anthology of detective comics.

Yeah. Well, let's discuss Clayface's next role. Then jumping many, many decades into the future. This is Detective Comics annual number 2018. So still, Detective Comics. A little trend there from DC Comics. This is from March 2018. And the story is just entitled Clay, although the COVID title is The Curse of Clay Face. A lot more dramatic there.

Yes. And this is by James Tiny in the fourth. This is penciled by Eddie Barrows, inked by Ebra ferreira, colored by Adriano Lucas, lettered by Sal Capriano and edited by Chris Conroy. And this is happening during James's epic run of Detective Comics and Batman, in which he uses Clayface quite a bit. And Clayface becomes hero. Uh, anti hero, uh, but basically a hero, I'd say. And so this annual in 2018, uh, goes ahead and tells the origin of, as it says on the COVID gasp at the gruesome origin of Batman's foulist foe. And so it's retelling the origin for the first time in the post Rebirth universe, which fuses together a lot of elements of the previous Clay faces. The Animated Series clayface So let's give a brief summary. Do you want to start us off?

Yeah. So this Clay face is Basil Carlo, and his father is an actor, um, named Vincent. And we see these in flashbacks. And he's created Rennie.

So he's created the stuff that you can use to sort of yemuld the skin. And he has this great creepy looking like he looks like the Joker segment. M. And it's fun that James uses this device because by having his father also be an actor, his father gets to talk a little bit about acting and playing a role and what they want from you. And that sets up, of course, this Clayface, who is an actor. And that becomes an important part of the mythology of Clayface.

Mhm, and very much a lot of these details too, it seems that James is taking and maybe part or inspiration even from Batman The Animated Series, which is fun because we both said that was our introduction to this character in many ways. And in Clayface's first episode of The Animated Series, which is written by Marv Wolfman, he is an actor. And again, he's using this chemical, this Clay that he's able to put on his face and then eventually he overdoses on it or he's doused with it, and then he turns into the Clay face monster, big, giant mudman that we know. And we have a similar arc here in this story.

Well, in that Animated Series also builds a little bit from the Basil Carlo origin in 1940 because of the mob connection and the way that Clayface is sort of indebted to the mob. And that is true in the Detective Comics number 40 and true in The Animated Series. But it is not the case here because here he actually gets in a car accident and he ends up using the renew himself in order to start to mold his face. So that he can continue with the project that he had gotten cast in.

Even in The Animated Series, though, we actually don't see the car accident. But they do have the newspapers up on the wall that's saying that in that one, it's Matt Hagen. Matt Hagen has been in an accident. I don't know if it says car accident. So there is even there that same thing. We're just kind of jumping through it. But it has that kind of classic thing almost like reminding me, too, of Dr. Strange, too. What will someone do? To what lengths will they go in order to try to regain what they think makes them special? In this case, it is very literally his face.

Yeah. And so then he puts on the fake face and he encounters the woman that he's working with, who I guess is a PA on, uh, the production, who tells him that it was the mask, that it wasn't him anymore. So even though he had recreated Basil Carlos face, he was no longer Basil Carlo. So we're starting to get the part of the mythology that becomes important for our alternate universe here, where who is Basil Carlo anymore? When he's, um, under, that when he's able to mold himself all the time. And also the question here, of course, if he's starting to lose his humanity. So Batman gives him the choice to be better, but he ends up getting completely doused in The Renu, which comes from The Animated Series directly. And that's what actually then turns him whole body into the brown, goo monster that we know of as Clayface. And that's when he embraces his villainy at that point, because he says there's a monster in everyone, and he wants to show everyone that. What do you think of this origin?

Yeah, I was going to say it ends on the kind of a cliff. Well, I don't necessarily know cliffhanger, but this very kind of big moment, it doesn't end with everything being wrapped up. He actually deforms or scars the girlfriend character, who's been a complete innocent throughout this. So what's interesting, what I think James Tinyan does is take this character and I think we're going to see this in our alternate universe as well, takes this character that has many sympathetic qualities to him, but makes him do an irredeemably, evil thing there.

Yeah, I agree. I think that is absolutely true, mhm.

I think it's a really fun way that they decided to kind of put these various stories together, because in the original DC continuity, basil Carlo just injected himself with the blood of two of the other Clay faces. And that's how he becomes Clayface. But this actually just feels so much more organic there. And it's cool, too, that they're actually referencing back to so many of the horror people. Like we mentioned. Oh, his name must be inspired by Boris Carloff. And we actually even mentioned Boris Carloff in this story. So they're aware of this world. And even it's strange, even in the original one by Bob Kane and Bill Finger, we didn't mention this, but the movie that they're actually shooting is a movie called The Terror in this old Dark house setting. And Boris Karlov, years after this comic actually made a movie called The Terror set in a big old dark house. Uh, maybe it's just a coincidence because it's a pretty generic title, but it's kind of interesting that all these things do interconnect in some way.

Yeah, I agree. And as we've talked about with the adaptation of the Animated series, I think they do a good job of pulling that in because that adds the layer of initially he chooses to use the powers of the serum, uh, but then an accident happens and he gets completely deformed and overwhelmed by the powers of the serum. So it's a good, more complicated origin. Uh, there's not one catalyst that produces the villain. We know there's actually a few things that have to fall into place which makes him a little more interesting. And I think this does a great job of making me interested. So let's see what happens.

Yes, let's get ready for our next role, which is in exploring multiversity.

I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if?

Today we are asking the question, what if Clayface had one bad day in Hollywood? And this is from Batman. One bad day. Clayface number one from April 2023.

And this is written by Colin Kelly and Jackson Lansing. It's penciled and inked by Germanico. It's colored by Romulo Fahardo Jr. Lettered by Tom Napolitano and edited by Dave Vilgosh. So shout out first. Before we get started with our discussion to the February 2023 episode of our friends at the Comic Book Couples Counseling podcast, brad and Lisa got to interview Colin and Jackson specifically about this one shot the week it came out. So you definitely should go listen to that. It's a great conversation. We'll actually refer, I think, to a little bit of what we learned from Brad and Lisa's discussion with Colin and Jackson. So again, back in February at the Comic Book Couples Counseling podcast, go check out an interview with them on the creation, where it came from and some of the origin of the story. Colin and Jackson, of course, are, uh, right now known for their run on Captain America, which I think is extraordinary. I've talked about that when we were on the ShortBox podcast with Bottter Milligan. We discussed their Kang the Conqueror miniseries. So I think they're kind of a rising star team in comics. They're really hitting a lot of hot properties and have a great stride with it. For DC, they've done mostly anthologies and a few miniseries spin off type stuff. Did Batman Beyond Batman and Robin Eternal. And the three issue Aquaman Flash Void song, which I actually quite enjoyed also. Zormonico, meanwhile, has done a lot of DC and a little bit of IDW. But at, uh, DC, he's worked on injustice. Wonder Woman, Infinite, Frontier, flashpoint beyond. And we'll talk about his art for sure, as we discuss this. So the One bad day, if you are not familiar, we alluded to it earlier in the episode. One Bad Day is a series of one shots that just wrapped up, inspired, if you will, by Batman The Killing Joke, where there is a line about how it's just one bad day that keeps someone from going over the line and becoming the Joker. And so, over the last year, DC has commissioned some extraordinary teams to do these one shots that tell the story of one bad day. So do you want to start off a brief synopsis of Clay faces? One bad day here.

Sure. So Basil is in Los Angeles. In Hollywood, but he's going by the name Clay. And he looks like a handsome, young blonde guy. He's working, uh, at a Chateau Mar Mall stand in. And he's got three friends who are also trying to break into the industry. And he's got a big audition coming up for this big, serious role, which is basically for the movie. The Joker.

Well, no, hold on. You're spoiler.

Okay.

It's for the killing joke. Yes, the Killing cool, very meta moment of this. Is that's for the killing joke? But before we actually even know what the production is and he keeps practicing lines from it, but we don't know. It's fun to go back. He and his friend end up in the same audition. He's told that he's not playing it well because he needs to be more uplifting. Even though he's supposed to be a really tragic villain character.

He knows Joker really what this villain would be like because he is this villain and he's playing it very seriously. And his friend we don't see his friends audition, but his friend's a comedian, and then his friend plays it a little lighter and actually gets the role. And Basil Clay can't believe this and actually then kills the friend and becomes him and takes his role in the film. But then he still wants to play it the way he was going to play it. And the director doesn't like that. The director wants to fire him. So guess what? Basil flesh Clay, and so on and so on, until.

Ultimately, he works his way up the food chain and hosts a party at the I assume it's the producer at that point of the studio or the head of the studio.

The head of the studio, yeah.

Hosts a party, invites his friends over. They keep waiting for this other friend to show up. Bruce Wayne is there, of course. And basically Clayface loses control in this. His friends confront him. He tries to tell them what happened. Uh, he has lots of great quotes in the end, as he becomes more of a monster saying that it's his turn, it's his turn, confronts Batman, they get in a fight, and he ends up in Arkham Asylum. And there's a lot more to it. But I wanted to give that summary so we could dig into some of those story aspects because I think we both loved this. I know I did. You have not read every one. Bad day.

I think I'm just missing one right now. But I think they've all been great.

Yeah, some have been better than others. There's some I are, uh, more forgettable, but there are highlights. And this is for sure a highlight. And I finished it. And the meta stuff around the killing joke being the production, which, yes, I think there are also references to the Joker movie because they talk about how Hollywood wants things to be dark, but not too dark, and sexy but not too sexy. And all of those things. Uh, so all of that I just knew you'd really appreciate. But how did you enjoy reading it for the first time?

Yeah, I think this is so good because it really is. Uh, and I think this is true of most of the One Bad Days, but actually, for the Riddler that we covered, batman is a pretty significant role in that. And here it is almost funny. It's like, oh, Bruce is here in Hollywood because his family helped actually start Los Angeles, and he just shows up and he plays a little role in the very end. But really, this is a Clay Face story. Uh, you could probably take Bruce Batman out of it and have it just be the rest of the characters, most of which are just introduced for this story. And it is so self contained in that way. And that is really, uh, awesome.

Yeah, I agree. I totally agree. And, uh, again, being a character, especially when I read this before, when it came out a few months ago, I knew even less than I know about Clayface now. And so to be able to really get into this character, I think was really cool. And I don't know if they had constructed the One Bad Days really well where Riddler is, I think, a great opening to the premise. And then this is a great closing to the premise. This was the last one. There were a few delays in shuffling to the schedule, so I don't know if that was on purpose or not. But I love it because in the end, the role Batman's playing is saying to him, nine people in one day. Nothing else matters. So even though they've built up Clayface as this sympathetic, almost anti hero Batman's there to remind us like, this was his one Bad Day, he killed nine people. Like, that is it M he can't do? There's no going back from that.

But there's a relatability still to it because so many of the feelings that are explored. In this are feelings, I think, that so many of us have had, whether you're in the industry or you're in something else. But your friend, your coworker, gets that job that you want, and sometimes you have those feelings of anger, and you're, um, not probably going to kill that person, hopefully. But you have those feelings there. And he's taking it one step further. And of course, we've also had those feelings where if we're fans of something or even at our office, oh, gosh, I just want to be if I was the boss, I would know exactly how to do this. Or, oh, they're screwing up my favorite movie franchise. If I was the head of this studio, I'd know what to do. And Clayface is able to do that, uh, all in this one day.

Well, that's what I think. Even if it's not relatable in terms of personal experience or anything like that, it is so relatable. You and I are often find ourselves talking about just how exploitative, especially right now in the writer strike climate, how exploitative Hollywood is. It's truly when you step back and look, I love Hollywood, and I spend a lot of money, like we all do, uh, consuming things out of Hollywood. But when you step back and look at it, you're like, whoa, it's a horrible, horrible industry with horrible things, uh, from the past that it can't let go of. And I think this comic does such a good job of capturing that. I did have one really close friend throughout my 20s who lived in La. And the stuff that Colin Kelly and Jackson Lansing are getting at with just the struggle and how you try to build a community in that and what these three friends are doing and how they say, we're not going to let this city win. And I've seen that in people and it's really amazing to me. And obviously, they live in La. They are screenwriters, so they're probably almost certainly pulling on their biographic, their autobiographic experience, which they told Brad and Lisa about a little bit. And I think that makes this really cool. And again, especially in the writer strike, I didn't even really think that people should read this to understand why this is happening and why that industry is so broken. Clayface Ah has one solution, the WGA has another.

Exactly. Yeah. I went to drama school and I did some acting in New York and considered going out on auditions. And just the idea of this kind of constant rejection was too much for me. And there's this great line early on in the comic where one of the characters says, money, luck, and talent. You need one to get in the room and the other two to stay there. And I thought, oh, uh, that's such an interesting idea, where there's so many people who have the luck and the talent, but they don't have the money or they have the money and they have the talent, but they just can't catch that lucky break. And I thought that's so interesting because that's exactly what's happening to Basel in this story, is he's got at least the talent, as far as we can see here. And he's got the luck, he's got that audition, but he doesn't have the money or all these other things. Uh, nothing is exactly working out for him as it should be.

Yeah, and I like that struggle of his is also clear in his desperation. And I think it's interesting. I hadn't thought much about this, but you're mentioning some of the quotes that are so good in the writing of this, where he's talking. I'm looking now and a few pages I earmarked and I'm, um, anyone, I'm everyone. Why shouldn't I get the role? It's my turn. Like, if you removed the Clay face and removed the murder from this, this could be a story that probably happens millions of times a year. And with this person who's so desperate and ends up feeling entitled because they've been screwed over so many times and has something to offer and they're not being seen. And mhm the reason that all works so well is because this is a character who, like I mentioned in the earlier issues we read, who is he? Who is Clayface when you can be anyone and anything? What is his core self anymore? Is it Basil or not or Clay in this? Who is he? He can be anyone. He can be everyone. And I think it's in the James Tinneyan Annual, that means he's no one. And that definitely shows up in this, just as he fights against this system that is, like you said, you need luck or connections to get through.

And we've seen this story in other versions. Uh, it reminds me of All About Eve. There's a little bit of that Sunset Boulevard thing in there. There's any story where someone is in some way selling their soul in order to get what they want. It goes all the way back to Faust, but it's always in there. This is, I think, something they talk, brad and Lisa were talking about it's. What would you do? What would you kill for? And um, in this case, he wants to kill for that. Being an artist, having that power in that way. But also, I think, in being seen, being accepted. Uh, maybe it's what you're saying to Guido in doing so. Is he finding out who he really is in that?

Yeah, I think that's what's, again, so good about what Kelly and Lansing are doing here with an understanding of Hollywood is that yeah, at the start it's artistic integrity. At the start, he's fighting for his version of things and his artistry. But uh, ultimately what that is, is he wants to be seen. And I think that's true for a lot of people who put themselves out there in that way. We all want to be seen. Don't get me wrong, we all absolutely want to be seen in everything we do. But people who put themselves out there ah, as a public persona, really want to be seen in a certain way. And that's what I think we get here, is that Clayface is trying to just be seen well, in that way, too.

It's interesting that this is in Los Angeles and everything is bright just to talk about the art for a second. We see sun, we see people sitting on green pastures and looking out from balconies over palatial places and stuff like that.

Yeah, I want to really get into the art. Yeah, the art is amazing. And not only does it give us that very neon, pastel, sky, beautiful La. That you're describing, but what's really cool is the way that Germanico kind of turns it into a script. And Kelly and Lansing talk about this briefly with Brad and Lisa, that he had done that himself, that that was his his decision. And he did so much work on it, and they started getting the pages and we're just blown away. But it's just very cool because you'll hit the end of a scene and it'll just say, like, smash cut two, and then it'll jump. And it doesn't do it all the time because that would slow the story down. And I think that, uh, he must know that. But it does it in really cool key places, and we'll have, like, interior monologue or I even love the scene as he's absorbed all the people that he's killed, and he's in the mirror, like, turning into all of them. And then there's two pieces, uh, of the script as the final two panels on that page, and it says, clay voiceover, I'm not trash, I'm a star. So he does this really cool infusion to give it yet another meta quality about being in La. And being in Hollywood and what that means. So the art is just awesome.

Yeah, it's great. And then going back to kind of the idea of being seen. Yeah. You're not hiding in the shadows of Gotham City here. Everything is taking place in the sun, out in the open. Even the final chase with Batman is out in a field. It's not in some dingy alleyway. So I really love that.

That's true. Yeah. And then it's actually in the end that he's trapped in a box. That he's literally in a box in Arkham, and he has all nine people that he killed. And I love I mean, that closing line is hilarious when he just says, I'm very open to feedback. He's having this whole conversation with his nine personas now in a cell. And that is such a, of course, Hollywood trophy thing that you hear feedback and being open to it. So, uh I love it.

And what I think you and I were discussing this before we started recording, but uh, what I think they did that was a very smart decision. And they talked a little bit again about this with Brad and Lisa. So listen to that interview because we're referencing it so much. But they talked about or maybe their editor had this idea, too, about like, you have to know what a character's good day is here. And I think what's interesting about this one, as opposed to, say, the Riddler, which is not there's no goodness in that one. No, not at all. He just starts but here we see Clay having a really good day, even before the audition. He has friends, he's got a job, he's auditioning, he's living his life. So he's starting pretty well. And then we see this really good day of, oh, he gets the job, even though he has to kill someone to get it, but he's at the top of it. So it means that much more. To see the character have that fall by having him hit those heights there and even having knowing that he can have this normal life makes seeing him in this cell at the end even that more tragic.

Well, I think they probably gets to I'm thinking about the Race Al Ghoul One Bad Day, which doesn't do the same thing that's by Tom Taylor. And it's, uh, also one of my favorites of the series. And it doesn't quite do the same thing in terms of having one good day. But what it does is to Raysh in that story, he thinks it's the best day, right. Because his motivation is to what he thinks he's doing to protect the world. And so it's funny because I think that's true in this, too, for what you're saying is outside of the killing, right outside of the means, I guess the means are justified here by the ends, because the ends, uh, up until it all falls apart, are his good day. The ends are like what he wants to accomplish and he feels successful, and it's what his motivation is. And so perhaps you need to get a sense of that good day in order to get at the character's motivation and how they would react to then, the worst day. Yeah, it's a very cool thing. So, uh, obviously this hasn't been revisited before because it's super new, and I don't expect that we'll revisit these, but would you want to go back to Earth OBDC, as we've designated it?

Uh, I don't think so, because I think this is such a well contained story and it's such a great capsule story there, so no, I don't think so. I think it's like, the perfect length. Really?

Yeah. I don't want to go back to this story. I think what I'd like is writers to take inspiration from this and tell us, uh, some interesting stories about Clayface Navigating, whether it's Hollywood explicitly or not, just navigating ambition and representation and identity and image. And I think those things are all really cool about Clayface, and I hope to read more stories that feel inspired by this version. But I agree. I think the story is just so satisfying that I'm good with it where it is.

Well, before we take our curtain call, everyone's calling for an encore, so let's go with pondering possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted? Diverted. Diverted. So, Gito, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?

Well, we're not going to dive into anything specific because I like to continue our rule with our segments, which this segment can only follow the alternate universe that we saw. So what I thought we would do is just talk a little bit about Clayface overall future possibilities, especially with the Mike Flanagan news, with the rumors of him ending up in Matt Reeves's Batman, and also that Harley depiction that we both love and kind of what the future of that depiction is. Even though that depiction predates this in terms of its start, it is continuing. So we will keep seeing Alan Tuddick do that and we'll keep seeing if that shows up more. So let's start with that, since that is the one that we're both familiar with. I imagine it might have influenced Kelly and Lansing, honestly, because it has what I think is really cool. I mean, that whole show, if people don't watch it, go watch it, it is surprising you. And I did not watch it for years, and then I decided to put it on while I was bored, like one day last year and loved it. And then you started watching a few episodes and now we both love it. So the Clayface depiction, I think, is like the perfect tragic comedy or whatever you'd call that. He's just so almost sad and pitiful and hilarious because he is. And in that, he's desperate, right? He's constantly wanting to be liked and wanting to be the center of attention and wanting to put on a show or a production or be someone famous or get to play a role in the Caper. And so I would imagine there's some influence there, unless we don't know this character well, maybe there's a writer who did that, but if it started in Harley, then it definitely shows up here.

They lean very hard on the actor element. And Alan Kunick's voice there is very like, what you think of a hammy Basil Carlo.

I'll tell you, it's what Basil Carlo should sound like, is that voice.

Although then I think the Basil Carlo that we get in The One Bad Day, I think is an actual good actor from the little that we see. And I don't think the Basil Carlo of the Harley Quinn show is actually ever supposed to be good, but they also play a lot, even on that show with gender and sexuality, all the things that come from being someone that can become anyone, which is an interesting even the batman Animated Series. The last time we see Clayface, he's a woman.

He's a woman. Yeah, I noticed that too, because we just rewatched mhm. Yeah, and it's funny, too. You're making me think a lot about Mystique. Mystique is a lesbian and is bisexual and has played with gender, is married to a woman. But I was also thinking about the connections to Mystique in this character and why as much as I've loved Mystique, I've never asked the same questions about, like, who is Mystique? And I think some of it is because she has a human persona. Even when she's blue with red hair, she has a human default persona. And Clayface no longer does. He has a non human default persona. So I think that's where he is a little more interesting. Now, live screen, as you said, a lot of the live screen depictions have modified either his power set or who he is. First of all, you and I love Mike Flanagan. And talk about someone who knows Hollywood and can comment on Hollywood and has done really cool meta stuff and horror stuff. I really hope that that happens. I hope it becomes a James Gunn Elsworld movie. Mike Flanagan's clayface because I think that's a great match.

Well, what the character has that so many other Batman villains do, strangely enough, this is what they tried to do or do with the Joker movie, even though Joker is just evil. But so many Batman characters have this sympathy element to them. Two Face probably is the number one, right? Batman is always trying to get back to Harvey Dent there. And you have Killer Crock, who has elements of that. And then you have Clayface, too, where even here in this in our one Bad Day, it ends with Batman saying, uh, I wanted you to try to go out in the world and just be you, but you can't. And I can't allow you to go any further. And I would imagine some element of that would be in a Mike Flanagan movie where we're seeing those two. The tragic side, the person who is a monster but doesn't want to be a monster.

Well, I think he said he explicitly wrote it as a hero. He wrote him as a hero. So now in terms of Matt Reeves and entering Matt Reeves DC world, are you excited about that? What do you think he'll be like?

I think there's one really interesting thing about Clayface. So he has these similarities to these other characters in that he's got the sympathy element. But there's one really big difference to Clayface, to any other Batman character, which is that he has powers. So, sure, Raza Goul and Bain are strong, but they're just kind of at the peak of human perfection strong. You've got, ManBat. He's, I guess, the only other exception. And Killer Croc is also kind of like a Bane raza Ghoul right. But Clayface is the only one with real power. Powers he can transform.

I wouldn't call being a, uh, human animal power. So I think killer crock are out.

No, he can superpower, he can shapeshift. And even when he doesn't shapeshift, he can basically send out all of this clay mud to consume people, eat away their flesh, all that kind of stuff. So I'm curious how that will play out in the Matt Reeves movie, where they have gone even a little too much for my taste, into the realm of believability where Riddler is just wearing a button down shirt conspiracy theorist.

Yeah, I agree. And you and I both liked the Batman, and I think it is a great movie. One of the better Batman movies since Tim Burton's for me and you, I think. But I also worry that it's going to be grounded in realism. Some stuff that I don't care for because the Riddler, even the fact that the Riddler's costume and today, any audiences are willing to accept any comic bookie costume, right? This isn't the days of X Men one where they had to put them in black leather because no one wanted bright colors. So the fact that Matt Reeves chose not to have Riddler look even remotely like a Riddler we've ever seen on the page does worry me. Maybe they're going to do the 1940 Clayface. Maybe it's not even going to be a superpower creature, uh, because that does feel out of place in that world, but who knows?

Yeah, you mentioned False Face, who was the stand in, uh, on the Batman 66 show, who was a master of disguise. So, yeah, maybe they'll take that element, really embrace the original one. Now, you could incorporate the chemical that he puts on his face that, uh, in the Animated Series in the James Tiny inversion. And you could do that where he's able to not transform his face with prosthetics or a mask, but actually with this chemical. And that chemical makes him mad. So you could have that without him actually becoming a full on shapeshifter or full on Mud creature.

Yeah, I doubt we're going to see, uh, uh, a Mud creature, that's for sure. And there's also I do hope we see, uh, an actual being able to modify your face totally.

I mean, there's so many Clay faces, too, to choose from. Only Basel Carlo is the actor version, although they basically incorporated that into the other version for the Matt Hagen version on The Animated Show. At this point, I think you have to be the actor, right?

Yeah. And you have to be Basil Carlo. And I think that also that always resonates with Cinephiles, the Basil Carlo name and that idea. Uh, and that seems like something I don't know Matt Reeves personally, but it feels like that would be of interest to explore that side of the character. And I would imagine most mainstream fans like that, is if anyone knows anything about Clayface, it's likely that, so I suspect it's going to have to be that. I'm excited, uh, because it feels different, for sure. So I think it is a cool, different character direction to go in, but yeah. I hope it's not a criminal lawn. Shaney like that would not be fun. Just this criminal who wears different disguises. I wouldn't like that depiction. Some, um, chemical deformity.

Well, we'll see soon.

2025.

Okay.

A few years until we hit that. But it's been fun getting to know Clayface. And if our listeners have recommendations for Clayface stories for us to read, please send them our way, because neither of us have explored him much, but we're intrigued. So that is a wrap. Thanks for listening. Dear Watchers, I have been Guido and.

I have been Rob maybe.

Our reading list is in, uh, the show notes, and please follow us on all social media at, uh, Deer Watchers.

Leave a review wherever you listen and we'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.

In the meantime, in the words of Uatu, keep pondering the possibilities.