Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Welcome to Dear Watchers, an omniversal um, comic book podcast where we do a deep dive into the Multiverse.

We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey. And it's been a while since it's just been two of us, or me, Guido and me.

Keeper of the heart shape. Herb rob.

Well, that was very exciting.

I don't know, I was trying to think of some things for the characters that we're going to explore today, but it's a trickier one.

I feel like it is. But it has been a while since it's just the two of us. We had some great guests and interviews, like with author Marcy Rockwell and with director Chris La. Martina and we had Jake and Hazeus join us for our Halloween episode. So we had an Alicia from Earth World Comics. Jake. And Haze, of course, from spectacular. So we had a lot going on in October.

Yes, but we were on their Halloween episode. They weren't on our Halloween episode.

Yeah, they were. Werewolf by night.

You forgot already. That's true. That was so pretty.

Fakers are not going to be happy when they hear this.

I think that was so early on, I forget that the Halloween season really is a long one. It never seemed long enough and yet at the same time is very long. And I guess that's what we're experiencing with Christmas now. I've already seen a Christmas tree go up in New York City already. So it's about now.

We're in black Panther Wakanda forever season. And that brings us to this exciting.

Episode mhm a Holiday onto itself. But before we get into that guitar, what's up with our little section of the multiverse?

Well, we have a request. We would like everyone listening to this right now to please leave a review in two places. So one, wherever you listen to us, but two, if you're listening somewhere other than Apple, podcasts or Spotify, please log into one of those that you use and leave us a review there too. Reviews will really help us with Discoverability, and we are going to focus this early winter, late fall on growing this community that we've been building. Yes, please review us in two places as a request from this episode on.

Good Pods, you can even review single episodes, which is pretty neat as well.

You can. Apple and spotify.

Yes. And speaking of the number two, the magic number while we're at it, we are asking each person listening to ask two people to do the same. So please ask, uh, two other folks who might like comics, who might like multiverses, might like movies, any of those things, to listen to this podcast.

Yeah. DM a friend, an online friend you have send them a Twitter message or an Instagram or tell a friend in person or tell your local comic shop. Please just help us. We're going to be focused on building that community right now because also our coffee is growing. That's our patrons. And it's been great. We finished our first group giveaway just recently. So congratulations to those winners. But we have more content on coffee. Rob has been writing posts. We've been posting images and screenshots of things that we're not posting anywhere else. And then, of course, our entire spinoff podcast series, Omniversity. So a lot going on and we're focused on building. So thank you for your help with those reviews and spreading the word.

I think you gave away a signed Dan Jergens comic, right?

Yes, we did. The death of Superman.

That's so cool. Awesome. Well, thank you for that. And if you're joining us for the first time, we have three sections origins of the Story. What inspired this other reality? Exploring, multiversity. We dive deeper into our alternate universe and pondering possibilities. We examine the impact and what's followed or coming in the future. And with that, dear Watchers, welcome to episode 70. And let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with today's alternate universe. And today we are asking the question, what if this is a good question. Was murdered by killmonger, ordered by storm.

Yeah, I bet very few people who are listening have any idea that this question has been answered. This is what it has been answered. And we're going to tell you all about it because this is from Earth. Uh, one six one. And before we get into our trip today, I want to give a little background. First of all, you can go back and listen to our Storm episode. That's episode seven whoa. Which has been a long time ago now, episode seven, we explored Storm storm's origin, and we got a little bit into Storm's relationship to Wakanda because we read her stealing the storage she needed. So episode seven has Storm, and this episode is, of course, timed. We haven't yet seen Wakanda Forever, so we have no spoilers. We'll probably speculate a little bit at the end. It's coming out before the movie. And it's kind of cool because it's the last episode before we see the movie. And so we'll be changing people next episode. And it's not really a two part episode. But next week we are going to with a special guest, more to be revealed. Soon we're going to be exploring almost certainly Namor. And so today we're doing Black Panther. Next week we'll do Namor. So we're LinkedIn since we're thinking about that a lot. Now back to Earth 161, where this question gets answered. What's our question, Rob?

What if Black Panther was murdered by Killmonger, ordered by Storm?

So this has been answered in one six one. Note that that Earth number is of course, sort of an inverse of six one six. Right. It's a very clever Earth numbering for a very not clever series. This is from Xmen forever. Xmen Forever for Those Not Familiar is about a 40 issues series that ran for two volumes from 2009 to 2011. And what the premise of that series is. This is our first time using that alternate reality. So that's the reason for this background. The premise is that these are the Xmen stories by Chris Claremont that he would have written had he stayed on past the very abrupt either quitting or firing or whatever it was from 1991 Xmen number three, when after 15 plus years of writing X Men, he abruptly leaves mid story. So while this series, I don't know, may or may not actually have been some of his imagined storylines, maybe it was an outline or two, who knows? But he himself said ah, when it was coming out in an interview, that he actually was glad he could go further with this alternate universe than he would have had he been writing the flagship title because he was freed from the constraints of the company, such as what characters can die or what larger universe implications you can have with your story. So he got to sort of go more wild, which for Claremont is a thing and a thing to behold. Anyway, that's what Xmen forever is. That's what Earth One six one is. And that's where we're going to get the answer to the question.

Yes. So before we dive into these issues, let's talk about our backgrounds with Black Panther and Storm. And as you said, we covered Storm way back on episode seven. So what's your background with her?

Yeah, so to recap Storm real quick, you can go listen to that episode. And our regular listeners know I'm X Men obsessed. It's my top tier superhero comic, so I've been reading it for 35 plus years. And so I know Storm very well. I've possibly read every appearance of Storm there is. I know her backstory. I know the retcons. I know a lot. And I'll talk a bit about her more and her relationship to Black Panther in a moment. Um, when we get to those issues. Black Panther I was never too familiar with, really. Probably only when anticipation of the MCU debut happened, maybe five, six years ago. I did a pretty thorough reading. It's easy to read Black Panther because he's actually not in a ton. So I read his origin, which we read today, his joining of the Avengers, and then all of his solo titles. I'm not an expert by any means. I started skimming, especially in the more modern stuff, but I have read all of that also. And then obviously, the movie is close to my top five Marvel movies. I looked this morning when we rewatched it, and it's probably number six, so it's very close. But I love the MCU depictions. What about you, Storm? And then T'Challa.

Yeah, well, Storm definitely I was an, uh, Xmen fan. Not nearly as big of an Xmen fan as you, but of course, the animated series, the original film series. So I knew her from that. And of course, some of the comics as well. But Black Panther was a character that I had never read. I knew him because he was always on kind of the outskirts or would pop up in a book that I would read. But I never read one of his solo titles. He was never really the feature of any of the books I read. So, really, until his first appearance in Civil War, that was really the most I really got to know him. And I still don't know his comic books really at all, outside of kind of what we've covered today.

Yes. So let's do it.

Yes. So we are going to don our cat suits and jump into Origins of the Story, this very show. You are going to get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago.

Well, we have two segments we're going to do in this section.

Yes. And speaking of Stan, ah, we're going to start with a Stan scripted story. And that is Black Panther's first appearance, which is fantastic for volume one, issue number 52 and 53 from July 1966 and August 1 966. And those are the Black Panther exclamation points and the way it began, which also has an exclamation point.

I left those in our notes on purpose for you because I know that you really enjoy those. So, uh, the credits for Fantastic 452 and 53 are written by Stan Lee, though, uh, it's believed Jack probably contributed, though he's only credited for Art on 52. He's credited as Jackie Kirby. 53, just Jack. And both of them are inked by Joe Sennett. And the first one is lettered by Sammy Rosen. And the second is lettered by Artie SIMEC. And Stan is still the editor at this point. We read these because they are the first appearance of Black Panther encountering the Fantastic Four in the first issue and then recounting his origin in the second issue. So this is your first experience reading these. What do you think?

Well, uh, I thought what was so fascinating is having just rewatched the movie, just how much foundational stuff is in the movie that's in these comics, you get the idea that everyone thinks Wakanda is this poor nation, but it actually has all this technology. And you get Claw as the villain who is such a big part of the Black Panther movie. Even his depiction, because I always knew Claw as the Pink. Uh.

He becomes sound. That's when he becomes living sound.

But here he's got the chinstrap beard that, uh, Andy Circus has in the movie. The outfits are very similar. So it was kind of striking how much they took from these very first appearances of this character and of Wakanda and all this stuff and use that as a foundation for the films so many years later.

Yeah, I agree. Especially the technology. I was noticing, like, the first way that T'Challa sort of outs that he has advanced technology is with the communicator. And that's a big part of the movie is that Sherry had created those tiny little communicators that broadcast m an unlimited range. And Reed is surprised when he sees T'Challa using this little communicator because they haven't yet gone to a condo. So it is neat to see those connections. I also think that now. Obviously. It's entirely created by white creators. But I do think that they do something quite original with that. Because while there are perhaps too many moments where the Fantastic Four are clearly racist and probably a little colonialist. Like.

Uh.

Classic against what it means to be a developing country and Third World country. Uh. And there's a little bit of like they're wrong. Though. I don't know. I think the creators probably agreed. But either way, regardless, this subverts so many tropes by doing what you just described, like, by incorporating the technology and the thing that everyone is now familiar with, thanks to the movie. But it really and they use language like primitive and all this stuff. But what is cool is that they constructed this world where there is a cultural tradition that's probably not very authentic. But at least is trying to be. I'd say some sort of African regional cultural depiction in terms of even in the second issue. Like the dance. And certainly in terms of the costume. The design. The colors. All of that. Which Kirby is perfect for. Of course. But they're doing it all. And at the same time, repeatedly, T'Challa likes to remind them that he is the richest person on Earth. It was just a secret, but he is the richest person on Earth. Yeah, it's a very cool way to subvert the trope.

Yeah. Uh, I thought that was interesting, how many times he mentioned that, because that's not really something they played up at all in the movie, you know, that they're a wealthy country, but he certainly is not stating that out loud. So here it was interesting that they have invested him with that kind of power. But what's so cool, I think, about how they did conceive of this is that they did not get rid of the actual of so much of the actual culture. So, like you were saying, like, the second issue starts with this dance, and you see people wearing kind of traditional ceremonial, uh, outfits and things like that, and yet you also have the Sci-Fi technology and the very Kirbyesque depictions of that. So it's really melding the two, because I think often you kind of saw it be one or the other. You saw super scifi or you saw a lack of that technology. But what's really cool is here, and this was certainly carried over in the Ryan Cookler movie, is that it's a combination of those things yeah.

And obviously Afro Futurism. I think existed at this point. I don't, frankly, know enough about pros science fiction to know exactly created after I was going to say I doubt it's created after teachers, but it's certainly the advent of it in comic books. I mean, this is the first black superhero in a major comic book, uh, from Marvel or DC. And so it's certainly the first introduction of Afrofuturism. So it's neat that they don't even depend on some sort of colonialist trope to introduce the first character. And this is also remarkable, is I bet you don't know this, but you know this predates the Black Panther Party.

M. Yeah, I knew that.

Yeah, by about three months.

Wow.

And so it's really cool. Now, there were some action organizations, some civil rights groups that used a Black Panther as a symbol. So I do not again, I do not for 1 second to believe that Stan and Jack created, uh, this symbology at all. But it's really cool that the Black Panther Party, the formation of this group happened later that year, but did not predate this comic. So they're not actually pulling from the national Party movement of the Black Panther Party when they create this character. And again, they're using things that are out there. But it is pretty neat and surely groundbreaking. Now, he doesn't show up too much. He has a few more appearances over the next, like two, three years, and then he joins the Avengers. So it takes a while. And then he doesn't have a solo title till the 70s, but it still is cool.

And they do the classic superhero thing. I think that, uh, has often happened where in the first issue, in issue 52, he is an adversary. Reason.

The explanation for those who haven't revisited this recently or have never before, he goes up against Claw. He wants to test himself. And he figured, well, if I can capture or hunt the Fantastic Four, these four remarkable superheroes who are so world famous, then I'm ready. So he's just testing himself, which is kind of funny.

Yes. But it even reminded me of how Black Panther is introduced in the MCU, where we get him as not quite an adversary, but he's battling the superheroes in Civil War that's there and even throughout other things. I think when we first see Spiderman confront the Fantastic Four, he's fighting them as well. So that kind of classic thing. And I think maybe we'll see that with Namor and the Black Panther cast in the new movie, too.

Yeah.

Mhm so now let's jump a couple of decades to the this is Marvel Team up number 100 from December 1980. It's the backup story in that issue, and it's called Cry Vengeance. Also exclamation point.

And this is written by Chris Claremont, coplauded by John Byrne, who also does the pencils and the art with Bob McLeod, who's doing the inks, primarily colored by Robbie Carousela and lettered by Annette Koecki. It's. Edited by Danny O'Neill And, uh, we are going to combine it with our next issue. So let's introduce that and then I'll explain why.

Yeah. And that's Black Panther number 18 from September 2006 called Here Comes a Storm. I think that's how it goes to be done.

I don't know. So this is written by Reginald Hudlin, penciled by Scott Easton and Cara Andrews, inked by Claus Jansson with Carrie Andrews, colored by Dean White with Cara Andrews and lettered by Randy Genteel, edited by Axel Alonso. So we read these together because Marvel Team Up 100 is the introduction of Storm and Black Panther knowing each other. This is the first issue where it happens. This is the first issue where they refer to knowing each other, where they meet each other. But they do refer to this backstory and you get a little bit of it in the backup, but you don't get too much. Then 25 years later, this thread is picked up in the, uh, mid 2000 Aughts. And it's used to sort of retcon and retell this story and add to it and then reconnect those two characters. And that happens for a few months to a year or so. Before then, Black Panther proposes to Storm and they get married, which is the second issue. The Black Panther 18 is the culmination of that sort of retcon that these two have, um, this ongoing love and found each other again and then get married together.

Edith Marvel Team Up has a little bit of a reckon field there too, because we're seeing a flashback in T'Challa is older than he was in his first appearances, where we also get a flashback. So they're kind of already origin a bit. Yeah.

Mhm, so both of these stories introduce a retcon in order to create a relationship between Storm and Black Panther. The first one does it by creating this fact that prior to Storm being Xman, prior to Black Panther being King, or even Black Panther, T'Challa and Aurora meet each other, uh, Aurora to save T'Challa. And then they do that again 25 years later, where they start adding in more backstory. There's actually a mini series that retells what we see in Marvel Team Up 100, but flushes it out even longer. So there's a lot about it that is retcon, uh, and I'll get into my opinion about that and whether or not I think it works. But what did you think of either of these? And then we'll hold on to the relationship between the two of them. We'll talk about that when we're done with the issues. So what do you think of the Marvel Team Up then?

Uh, the marvel team up is okay. I don't think there's like too much happening. The villain is a little clawsque, but it's not claw, it's another poacher, uh, flavor kind of and he's also got South African. Yeah. So there's a lot of similarities there, but it's not him. So, uh, yeah, it definitely just feels like a backup story because, as you said, it jumps right into it. I can see why they might have been expanded on this later on.

Yeah. And what's interesting is the only illusion we get to the fact that there was even a romance between them, because obviously the flashback we see between them is a total of four panels and it's just storm saving T'Challa. And they're both probably 15 or something, and then they even see each other in the current timeline at this point, and go into battle and go to fight this person who turned himself into a robot, essentially to fight them and get his revenge decades later. And it's really only when it ends that he says that he finds himself thinking and she finishes a sentence and says of what was and might have been. And then the narration says, a moment, once denied, can never truly be recaptured. Part they do as friends. They may wish for more, but that is what they are and what they will remain forever. So it's hinting at a connection, but you never see a connection, nor does it even end open ended in such a way where it feels like Claremont was going to I mean, Claremont's with Marvel uh uh. Or writing X Men regularly for at least eleven more years and never deals with this again. I don't know. And so then the wedding, like I said, comes on the heels of about a year. Clearly the planned toured the wedding. The wedding, I think, is what they started with in mind, and then they spent a year doing like a mini series and sort of storm leaves the X Men and reconnects with T'Challa. And then there's this miniseries that retells that, that childhood encounter. Reginald Hudlin is writing Black Panther and writes, uh, their relationship a bit. He proposes. And then there's a big build up to the wedding, which, as you might have noticed, takes place during Civil War. Like the banner on the COVID says civil War ceasefire. So what do you think of the wedding? And then we can step back and get into their relationship in general.

I actually really enjoyed this issue. I think I'm a sucker for these kind of issues where you just get all these characters smashed into one place and there's little stories happening. It has this I wasn't a big soap opera fan like you were, but it has that kind of thing where we're here or it's almost like an altman movie, where we're going to focus on a couple of characters a little bit. Yeah.

There was that moment I didn't even remember where Luke Cage and Jessica Jones are talking, and because this is during Civil War, so everyone sort of aligned around the Registration Act, and they're saying, like she's saying to him, we, um, could just come live here. Or he's saying to her, we could just come live in Wakanda because Wakanda is a neutral, doesn't take a stance on the Registration Act. And that's literally one panel of a conversation between the two of them. So it was fun to see the little stuff like that little one showing up.

Showing up. Kitty Pride is in love with Storm's Dress and all these kind of little things. And of course, they introduce there's some kind of threat in here that is so secondary to the issue. I think I kind of wish it was played up a little bit more because this is definitely kind of, uh this is definitely more of a soap opera drama issue in that way, rather than a Superhero II issue.

Yeah. And it's also situated this is the era when I think both publishers, but definitely Marvel, was writing only five and six part stories so that they could collect them in trade paperbacks. So the lead up to the wedding is a five part story. And then The Honeymoon, uh, that happens right after this, which has, like, Doctor Doom and a lot of big stuff, is another, like, five or six part story. So this issue is sort of a one shot, almost bridging these two big arcs that are happening in Hudlin's Run of Black Panther at this time. Yeah, it is a really fun issue. I agree. And I like there are moments where I think the art is a little too cartoony, uh, or not a style that I'm into. But there are other clearly the arts being shared. The artwork is being shared between Kari Andrews and Scott Easton at this point, I'm sure, just for a timing sake. So sometimes it distracts and takes away from my enjoyment and sometimes it doesn't.

She shops a store where she just looks odd. It was like they didn't quite know how to draw her. And you can see her in especially her interactions with Charles. And it almost feels like one artist to Charles and one artist to her. Like, they just don't seem like they go together.

Uh, it's possible style. These big things were often rushed out and so they would get help with them. But, yeah, it is a fun issue. Now I've alluded to having an opinion and so people can probably guess what it is. But when this was coming out, I was actively reading all of this as it was coming out, and I really hated it. I really, really didn't like it. And I'm okay with retcons and I'm okay with having to revise my beliefs about something. But there was so much being shoehorned in here during this moment that I really couldn't get into their relationship. And I resisted it for a long time. They get divorced in Avengers versus Xmen, ultimately, and I never was a big fan. What's funny is, now that they are divorced and we can talk more about this in the issue we read later, I'm much more into their relationship, and I actually quite like it, and I like how a lot of writers get to it. But I'm not a fan of, really, either of these issues. At least the Marvel team up is a very light touch one. But the wedding and the stuff surrounding the wedding, as much as I enjoy it, I'm not a fan because I never had an emotional investment in a relationship, because there wasn't a relationship. And I doubt I'm alone. I don't know. I don't know if there are people who are like, big aurora T'Challa shippers out there. There must not be, since they got them divorced, ultimately, and they didn't keep them together. I don't know. So what did you think, like, sort of being on the outside and not being as into this? What did you think of their relationship and the retcon idea of building it?

I think I was just thinking, how does their relationship really function, as she is mostly living in New York and he is mostly living in Wakanda?

Well, like I said, we lead up to this. She leaves the X Men and she lives in Africa. And I don't remember if she lives in Wakanda right away or not, but she lived closer to T'Challa, I guess, and then 50 days off of the Xmen when she is with him and they're married, they actually then join the Fantastic Four together. And the two of them are on the Fantastic Four.

Uh, I think what could have maybe been played up more is that they both have they're both gods in a way, that he is the Black Panther. He's the monarch. Right. So he's kind of a god of Wakanda, and she's kind of a god there, because that's what when we like to say, like, Luke and Jessica, what they have in common, from my understanding, is they both have, like, both are damaged people in a way, and that's one of the reasons why they've come together. So I think that Storm and T'Challa have something in common, but it's not quite explored fully, at least in this issue.

Yeah, I'd say not at all until the recent stuff. So, um, let's make sure we circle back to that complaint, because I think that that complaint has been addressed, and.

Maybe this has been addressed now. But what would also be really interesting is exploring that in so many ways, she's also so much more powerful than he is. But he is a king.

That's the thing with Storm. And she's ultimately more powerful than anyone else.

Yeah, that also feels like it would be curious to see, does T'Challa have any kind of feeling of inadequacy there? Because he's also wielding his other power as royal, but his powerpowers are far more limited. It's not even really clear in all this run that we read how much super strength we know how many powers he really has, or is he just a gifted fighter with technology. It's kind of even unclear, I think, a bit in the MCU films. So that would have also been something really interesting to dive deeper.

I don't know, I'm not a fan of fragile masculinity narrative. I'm thinking about, like, they show up a few times in Sex in the City, and I always hated those boyfriends who were like, there was Burger who was always insecure that Carrie earned more than him. And it's like, I don't want to see that story. Like, you're just reinforcing some idea of masculinity as, uh, feeling threatened by women. I'm okay.

And I guess in some ways, some of this is even touched upon in our alternate universe, which we're going to get to right now. So leave the realm of the ancestors and journey into exploring multiversity m, I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if? So we as the Council of Watchers have dubbed this alternate Earth. What if Black Panther was murdered by Killmonger, ordered by Storm?

Or is it Storm? But I didn't want to complicate the question.

Too much question mark, as they say in the Details page, introductory page. This is from Xmen Forever, volume two, issue number 15 from March 2010, The Rising Storm. Also, exclamation point, I actually had one in every single title pretty much today.

Well, Chris and Stan are similar.

That's true.

Sort of hyperbolic way. So this is written by Chris Claremont. Uh, penciled by Tom Grummet with Peter Veil, inked by Alvey Gary Martin and Terry Pallette, colored by Will Quintana. Letter by Tom Orzakowski edited by Mark Panacea. So, as mentioned earlier, this is from that alternate universe that I described at the top of the episode. And this is a single issue in this ongoing three year arc, which is very serialized, as Claremont always is. So there's a lot of background prior to this issue and then a lot that needs to happen after it. But the issue does somewhat stand on its own. In fact, somewhere in the Solicits, I think they say, great jumping on point in this issue because I think they were trying to get more people into the reading. So I guess to summarize this issue, which I don't want to take too long, so cut me off or join me, because you have this Storm, who in this universe is now being called Perfect Storm. And what happened is that back in Extinction agenda nanny this is in six one six continuity nanny kidnaps Storm and she comes back as a, like, ten year old. This is the introduction of Gambit. Gambit and Storm are on the famous cover of Gambit's introduction, child Storm, blah blah. So in Claremont's world, she's then re aged in Extinction agenda, aged back to the Storm we knew in Claremont's telling of things or how he's telling us, he would have told them that is not actually Storm anymore, that there is this child Storm who's perhaps the real Aurora Monroe. And then there's this quote unquote perfect Storm, who actually has one of the powers of one of the genotian mutates. That's that important. Other than that, this is sort of kind of a clone. It's not even super well explained, even when they explain it, which I reread this morning when we were rereading these, just to make sure. It's so convoluted. But the point is, this isn't totally Storm, but it kind of is. But she's totally deranged, and she's being led by an evil organization, and she herself clearly has no scruple.

Didn't Chris already write this exact story with Madeline Pryor?

Oh, he's written this story with everyone that he's ever written a story about. It has all of the Claremont tropes in it, for sure. But the important things in this story, of course, are that now we in this issue get again, a flashback. It's funny. Issue opens and Storm is waiting for this thing to be unveiled in Wakanda, and she's like, sitting on the throne of Wakanda, but we don't know what's going on. And so we flash back and find out. That when she murdered Wolverine, which is what happened. Garcia's, run. When she murdered Wolverine, she escaped to Wakanda and she rekindles her relationship with T'Challa. So in this universe, Claremont's pulling back at that same thread he was pulling at 30 years prior to this in.

She's allowed to roam free in Wakanda, but you can't leave Wakanda. Those are kind of the rules they set up for.

And so then, long story short, other stuff happens, who cares? But long story short here is that Killmonger ends up coming on the wedding night and kills T'Challa. It turns out Killmonger has been working for Storm, and Storm then kills Killmonger and then causes an explosion, tells everyone in Wakanda that her and T'Challa got married before the explosion. So she's their queen and she takes over Wakanda. And the big thing she's been waiting to be unveiled is the statue of herself.

They're tearing down all, uh, the Black Panther statues.

Yeah. So what did you think?

Well, it's confusing because obviously I'm jumping into this pretty late.

It's confusing whether you're jumping into it.

Yeah. And I think the payoff of the twist doesn't fully work just because you kind of see Storm looking very evil from her first appearance in this, that she's sitting on the throne.

We already know.

This might not be the real Storm anyway. So all those things kind of make it. As soon as Killmonger shows up and puts this power dampering necklace on Storm, I was thinking, oh, they're obviously definitely working together. And then he says, oh, you're going to be my queen now. And then she stabs them because she's not going to be secondary to anyone. But yeah, so I don't know if it fully works for me in that way.

Yeah, it is a weird because, uh, what's one neat thing about looking at something like an X Men Forever for this segment of our episode is that the point of Divergence, as we've often talked about in all of our else worlds, the point of Divergence is actually quite late. So most of the canon that we're familiar with has happened. Mhm, so it's meant to be a closer to reality storyline, but it's unfathomable, it makes no sense.

Now.

I guess you have to imagine that you understand or you learn later that this is an evil Storm. She has a piece of the Shadow King in her. This evil organization has been like telling her what to do. But even that, I don't know, maybe there's something about Storm where it's hard to watch her be evil.

I was thinking you had evil Rogue, you had evil Gene Grey. So then Chris was like, okay, well now Storm's turned to be well in the Gene Gray.

Like, it uh, works so well. And I don't want to diverge and talk about the Phoenix, but there's something about it that works really well. Whether it's the version of it where Gene was the Phoenix or the Phoenix replaced her. In either case, like, reading the story works really well. Maybe because in some ways, Gene is a repressed character, maybe that's part of it and Storm is not. Storm has always been like a fully actualized part of why people rally behind her as like so kick ass, is that she has complete agency. She knows what she is. So to try to tell the story of her being evil, even though it's not even supposed to be our Storm who's being manipulated or corrupted, it still just doesn't work to get into it at all. I don't know that anyone wants to see it.

We mentioned soap operas or I mentioned soap operas on our last segment, but this also has such a soap opera element of she comes back and then it's kind of a whirlwind rekindling of the romance. They fall back in love. You don't even know, I think, how long it is, but it doesn't feel like that long. It feels like a M month has passed and they've fallen back in love and now they're going to get married. And it definitely has that soap opera kind of thing. I'm thinking like a show, like revenge or something like that at that time. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Well, I mean, the other interesting thing about our reading is even though we read the wedding, because I wanted you to have the canonical Six One Six context, and the wedding does take place, uh, in our timeline, in the timeline of its publication history. It happens before this issue, but where this world diverges from the Six One Six, the wedding never happened, of course. But you do have to wonder if Claremont's just taking that idea, like, would he have had this idea if Hudlin had not gotten the two of them married? I'm just curious if, again, he claimed the series was some of the ideas he had, that he would have explored it later. Clearly, he had a sense of T'Challa and Storm from the Marvel Team Up, but I wonder if he necessarily would have had them get married. And like you said, it felt rushed. And so did, I think, the six one six wedding of them. It's interesting. Yeah. And Black Panther is what I'd say is only true about this alternate universe. Black Panther. That's also true in the Marvel Team Up and the wedding, and about to be true in the next thing. The next six on six thing we read is he is see, this is what I think is consistent, and maybe I'm reading into it. He is, like, completely deferential and, um, deeply in love with Storm, upset to the point of almost, like, obsession. Like, he will do anything for Storm. Storm is his goddess. And so that seems clear. Even, uh, in the Marvel Team Up, again, there's very little exchange. But you get the sense that he's the one who longs for her, and you get the sense that she can just move on with her life. And then in the wedding, like, he'll do anything for her in this. He'll do anything for her to the point of not believing, A, that she's a clone because he scanned her genetics, or B, that it matters that she killed Wolverine. He's, like, telling Nick Fury, like, well, we don't know what happened. None of us were there that night, so I'm willing to believe him. He's just very tainted, uh, I guess by love.

I think the best moment in the wedding issue is there's the moment where Storm tries to get him to agree that he could leave Wakanda if she's not accepted by the Panthers or God, but he doesn't quite really want to answer. And I thought that was one of the best moments of that comic, because you do have this character, uh, of T'Challa having a bit more agency, maybe there where he's cagey, because you start to go, oh, wait, who does he love more? This woman? Or does he love his nation more? And I think a lot of times in a lot of these comics, you don't, and especially in this one here yeah. You just don't get enough sense of his personality in general. So I think that's something that kind of hurts. And also maybe that's kind of to your point about their relationship as a whole, you don't quite get, oh, what do they meet? Where is the conflict in their relationship in terms of their different personalities? You don't quite get that because he does seem not necessarily the most fleshed out character, which is surprising for such a big character.

Yeah. No, I think the only thing we get out of this alternate universe version of T'Challa is that neat outfit for his wedding, when he's going to wear like some brown fur cape and some purple loincloth with over his Black Panther suit. So, um, I think that's the only thing this adds to it. And obviously this alternate reality goes on. And there's actually a whole story with Ghost Panther, but it's not. Tata stays dead. So I didn't have us read any more of the Xmen Forever series because this is all focused on Black Panther.

Mhm. Well, let's continue to focus on pack Black Panther with our final book. In pondering possibilities, the future you described, we're going to discuss a super, super recent book. This is Black Panther volume one of Black Panther, volume eight, issue number six from July 2022. And that is the Long Shadow book six.

This is written by John Ridley, pencil and ink by Stephanie Landini, colored by Matt Neela, lettered by Jose Beno, and it was edited by Caitlin Livette, Michelle Marques, Elana Smith, and Wilmoss. So we read this in trying to choose what we could read after Xmen Forever. It's quite hard because of how convoluted a lot of that story gets. And so trying to stay focused on Black Panther and of course, his relationship to Storm, I looked at more modern stuff we read in episode seven for Storm. We read when she goes to steal the sword out of Wakanda. And so you get a little bit of a sense of what their relationship is post divorce at that point. He's not really in it, though. So in this run, Ridley's run, there are a few encounters with Storm. This is not the first nor the only at this point. But Storm, of course, is the regent of Soul. She is the Queen of Mars, so she sits on a throne now. And so there's some really cool interplay between them in all of the issues that she's in. But this one, I think this is where she learns that he's been lying about these secret agents and what's happening. And so I think there's a lot of great conversation in this one about their relationship and the role of croqua and their divorce, and who he can actually care about and why and what that means in terms of his role as, uh, a monarch who is no longer a monarch. Also because Wakanda has become a democracy. So I think it's a really cool arc. But I picked an issue that I thought hopefully you'll be able to pull stuff out of because there's this great conversation between them. So what did you think?

Yeah, I wasn't really grabbing me. But I think once Storm shows up, it becomes a lot more interesting because it goes from being a lot of it's just Tulla being chased by these guys in white with guns.

And again, it's part six of like a nine part story that he's telling. That's a very action spy thriller story.

Yeah.

And they're trying to get a lot of those beats.

Shari is trying to work on some tech. But I think once Storm shows up, it becomes you get the personal aspect there, which is so great. And what I love is that her first thing is she saves him from the people chasing him, but then she zaps him herself as kind of a punishment for well, um, she's cauterizing his wound. No, before that. She snaps them even before she caught her eyes.

Yes.

Marriage. And he lied to her. So you kind of get to know.

It has nothing to do with the marriage. They already saw each other a few issues ago.

Uh, okay.

No, it has to do with that he lied about what was happening to him right now and for agents and all this stuff.

But you get this idea of two people that were used to be together and now have this bickering but still love each other at the same time. And there's some good dialogue between the two of them. And when the other characters kind of show up and they're all interacting together, I think that's definitely the strongest part of this issue.

Yeah. And they kiss. I think it's sort of understood that they're almost kind of together now without being in a relationship. When they see each other now, they'll often kiss in the issue. But she lives on Mars and lives her life, and he lives there and lives his. And in this, she even says to him, like, being in a relationship was never going to work for you because it takes too much work. And she says, you were never up to the job.

Yeah, I like that.

So I, uh, like that she loves him. She trusts him. He loves her as much as he can. It's established in this. Um, and he trusts her, clearly. But they won't be in a relationship.

It's interesting because, uh, it's similar not definitely the same, but similar a little bit to his relationship with his ex in the Marvel movie, too, where you get a little bit of romance there, but a lot of it is needing to work with your former partner and kind of yeah, I never thought about that.

Yeah, I never thought about that. It is a strange relationship in Black Panther, and it's interesting to wonder where it would have gone, which we'll never see. But yeah, you're right. Like Hem and Nakia clearly love and trust each other, have each other's backs. You can imagine that they could have a romantic or sexual relationship at any moment and that they did have one in the past. But that, uh, something is preventing them from being in a bit like Storm.

Um, she can't be stuck in this one place. She's got to be out in the world. She's got to be doing her mission, just like Storm has to be with the X Men and she has to be on Mars. She doesn't want to just be in Wakanda and be the Queen and be the king's girlfriend. She needs to be doing her own thing, and that's not there. So in that way, those characters definitely have that. And he's interesting because he's tied to this one place in a way he can't leave and go out wherever she is, like so many of these other characters.

Yeah, well, in this arc now, the other thing I'd like to add about this arc is it has him choosing country over love and M. That's why, even though he's actually not the monarch again, but his choice to lie to her, which is what we're seeing the ramifications of in this make it clear, like he's choosing that role that he thinks he has. He's choosing Black Panther over everything else, which we were talking about earlier. All the other depictions have him almost illogically, or just don't explore much about. I mean, I guess actually it's only the alternate universe where it's illogical. Cause you pointed out in the wedding, he doesn't answer the question about what he gave up the throne. So do you think that X Men forever inspired the current John Ridley? Is he an Academy Award winner? Academy Award winner.

Yes, John, Academy Award winner.

And his writing of Storm and T'Challa's relationship? I don't think so.

No, I don't think so either.

I don't think there's anything to mind from X Men Forever, uh, with regards to understanding T'Challa.

But I wouldn't be surprised if he went back and specifically studied, like, even the wedding issue and stuff like that, and took direct inspiration from those worlds. Definitely. Yeah, you can definitely see them.

They're all Six one Six, so that's not a different world. That is six one six. And I'm assuming most writers go back and do that research. And that's again, what I love about this issue is what I love about the last few years, or the issue that we read of her stealing the sword from Wakanda. I like the way people are exploring their relationship now more than I liked the wedding stuff. So the last few years of people writing them has made me like their relationship. I actually am, like, into them being together in whatever way right now, even. And, um, 20 years ago, 15 years ago, I was not into them getting together because it just felt rushed and it didn't feel like there was an actual built and something interesting happened. I guess by rushing and then pulling back, we now actually have the chance to explore the meaning of these two people being in a relationship. What did this trip through the multiverse help us understand about Black Panther?

Uh, well, the one thing I was thinking that John Ridley actually touches on here, but is a big part is the Monarchy aspect of this, which I always actually thought was interesting rewatching the movie. Because between Black Panther and Thor, you have a lot of absolute monarchs in Marvel world, and even in our alternate universe. If it was a democracy, storm would probably not be killing T'Challa and doing this whole plan. But it is this monarchy, where she has absolute power, would instantly become the richest or one of the richest people in the world control all these weapons. And we see that in our own world, whether it's monarchs or just with billionaires. So it kind of made me think, oh, there's an interesting capitalist monarch, uh, about monarchy absolute power corrupt kind of story here, which I don't know if any of these are exactly telling, but certainly sounds like it could be a very interesting story to tell.

Yes, I think that's a good thing to have detected through this journey, because I also you're making me think that in the MCU, will Wakanda becoming a democracy be a part of the sequel film? Certainly most people think, and this is not based on anything, but think that even the role of the Black Panther is going to be a little democratized. It's no longer going to be one single person chosen. What else you made me realize when you were just describing that line, is Namor going to be a monarch or not? And is monarchy going to be a question that's at play in Wakanda forever? And what are the factors? Like, if Namor is not a monarch, then perhaps the Atlantean's way of life comes into conflict with the Wakandan's way of life on that level also. Or perhaps they are not a monarchy and Wakanda is no longer a monarchy. And then there's even some meaning in that, even if it's not the primary thrust of the story. So, yeah, it's interesting. I'm just realizing that Namor isn't yet another marvel monarch to explore this question.

Totally.

Clearly, Ryan Coogler was interested in some aspects of this question because it does show up in the first movie.

Yeah. Even with a coyer saying, I can't go with you. I have to stay with the Crown, even though she knows Killmonger is evil. And it's like, oh, that's an interesting question that obviously is just kind of touched upon in the film is what does it mean to remain loyal to this idea when the person who's in charge of that idea now is evil? And I think there's a lot of real world mirroring that we are unfortunately seeing in life that often that could be explored. And I do think I agree with you. I think it's going to be explored a lot in this new movie.

Yeah.

About, uh, you. Did you have any other ideas about these characters?

Not so much from this trip through the multiverse, because, again, it was so far in a storm to me. Uh, there wasn't a lot for me to get out of that. So I'm going to have to say, no, I didn't learn anything new today. But I did have us read these, as you know. And many people who I will tell this do know I had to read these because I firmly believe though I'm ready to have it not be true and not feel disappointment. But I really think Storm there's a chance Storm debuts in Black Panther too. And so I wanted to explore this. Obviously it wouldn't be about their relationship because we're not getting to challa recast and I don't think they'll put Storm in relationship to someone else in Wakanda just because but the Storm's relationship to Wakanda that comes out of these issues was something I wanted to look at. Just again with my thinking that there is a strong possibility that Storm shows up in the movie.

I think so. And uh, I think reading these and re watching the movie as well, it definitely made me super excited for Wakanda forever.

Yeah, well, I'm sure we'll have stuff to say about it when we explore Namor after we've seen the movie.

Mhm. That is a wrap. Dear Watchers, thank you for listening.

I have been Rob and I have been Guido. The reading list is in the show notes. You can follow us on Twitter or Instagram at dear watchers.

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