Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

We, the people, in order to form a more perfect podcast, welcome you to Dear Watchers in Omniversal comic book podcast, where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

We are traveling with you through history and the stories and worlds that make up an omniverse, a, uh, fictional reality we all love. And your watchers on this journey are me, I'm just going to go with Captain Keto and me.

Union Rob.

Yeah, that works. M, neither of us should claim Confederate, so that works.

That is true. And before we take a trip through history today so smart. It's new with us. Keto.

Well, our DC giveaway is done. We may have another very soon. As you heard in our hundredth episode, this is our summer of giveaways. You have to listen every episode. Uh, and those thank you special gift boxes are on their way to our patrons. Finally, just in time for our proper two year anniversaries. So think of them as birthday gifts from us and they are very cool. Sleepover supply nostalgia boxes. And if you want one, you can join our coffee as a patron. And we might still be able to get you one because, uh, tweet every.

Day like our birthday patrons.

That's true. And a, uh, reminder that last week's spectacles was guest hosted by me, the Skrull impersonating Jake. And I was joined by Lisa from Comic book couples counseling podcast. So go check out last week's spectales episode because that was a lot of fun to do.

Yeah, Brad and my invitations must have got lost in the interspace mail.

I guess they did.

And if you are joining us for the first time, we have three parts of our journey today. Origins of the story. What inspired this other reality? Exploring multiversity. We dive deeper into our alternate universe and pondering possibilities. We examine the impact or what's followed or coming in the future.

And remember, leave us, uh, a review wherever you are listening.

And with that, dear Watchers, welcome to episode 104 and let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travels to today's alternate universe.

What is this tape I have here?

Oh, my.

Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under ah, God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

I was waiting for this to sing. I don't want to sing Captain America. Oh, I love it. I love that.

As, uh, the kids say, I believe that's a BOP.

No, it's a banger.

It's a banger. I feel like they said years ago. I thought, it's a BOP. It's a BOP and a banger.

Oh, I meant like, now. The kids now.

Yeah. No, I know.

I love those songs.

What those kids say. Yes, but this is a fun song.

Yeah. So that's our transition music for that moment. We'll see if I use it again or not. That comes off of one of the really cool Captain America audio tape adaptations of an actual issue of Captain America. So I try to collect those audio cassettes because they have weird music like that. So there's Superman, man of Steel ones, and then Captain America ones. A few others. But this has to be the best because it has that song that you can't hear anywhere else and is so good.

All right, well, thank you for that fun introduction. And today, these two Yankee Doodle Dandies are on a journey to find out the answer to the question, what if Captain America fought in the Civil War? The one from us. History and other tales of Cap in American history.

Yeah, we have to clarify that because there is, of course, the quite major civil war in Marvel's continuity, both comics and movies.

And in other countries as well, there.

Are multiple examples of civil wars. But this civil war that we are looking at is Earth seven one seven. That Earth. We'll get more into in a little bit how it's relevant to what we're doing today. But it contains those six 2005 one shots that aren't linked to each other but might be set in the same universe. We visited this Earth previously in episode 71 from last November with Bottter Milligan from the ShortBox comic book podcast talking about Namor. So when it was Namor if he grew up on land. But before we get into our issues today, a little background on, um, the Bicentennial at Comic in comics, because we are going to be talking about a Bicentennial issue. And this episode, of course, is coming out right around the 4 July. So if you're listening to it when it comes out, we're trying to make it timely for you. Yes, though it's not the Bicentennial this year, obviously, or perhaps not obviously to those who don't know. But, yeah, it's not the Bicentennial.

I'll tell you what the Bicentennial is. And despite the fact that we don't know what the kids are saying these days, we are not old enough, neither Guido or I, to actually have been born during the Bicentennial, which was in 1976, celebrating 200 years since the signing of the Declaration of Independence. There was a decade of planning. So literally, a committee was formed in 1966 to work on this, though, ironically, that was dissolved six years later because they could not agree on event on there.

Said something in there about America for sure. Committee gets formed, can't come to agreement. Um, anyway, and that kicked off in.

January that year in the Super Bowl. So many sports game celebrations, small town celebrations. You'll see murals still on small towns everywhere around the country. Ton of TV specials, books, merchandise, special events, like the president riding up the Hudson in New York. That's bizarre. And Johnny Cash leading a parade in Washington, DC. And there was also lots of art that used that opportunity to comment on the darker or more complex side of America. I'm thinking scorsese taxi driver, Altman's nashville or stevie wonder's songs in the key of life album.

So not on the darker side. Comics had to join the fray, of course, because this was such a big event, comics had to get in on it, particularly when you have captain america or superman truth justice in the American way. Superman leading the big two publishers. So for marvel during the bicentennial, they released a 1976 calendar called the bicentennial calendar. That year, lucky for them, was the 200th issue of captain America. So that is written by and drawn by jack kirby. And while not linked to the issue we talk about today, they were announced as two tie ins to the bicentennial spidey superstories, the gem of a comic that gave us the thanos copter, had a captain america team up with the liberty bell on the COVID and no joke on the COVID Morgan freeman's character from electric company is saying it's an easy read. I guess it's kind of a joke because his name is easy reader or something. I don't remember. Yeah, but that's a weird one. DC put a logo masthead on a bunch of books that says, DC salutes the bicentennial and did a giveaway in the books before July 4. It expired July 4, 1976, for a superman belt buckle. Uh, don't know why. I have no idea why that's bicentennial.

Are you giving away superman belt buckle from 1976?

I don't have one. I don't know. So they also, though, did an oversized book of superman explaining american history for the bicentennial. Archie did a bicentennial issue. Charlton comics had a phantom of 1776. Maybe we'll cover all those things one day. So comics did a lot for the bicentennial in 76.

Mhm so if you want to see cal mansplain american history, you can pick that up. Of course, some of the comics we're talking about today are about american history, so let's talk about what our background is with depictions of american history in marvel comics.

It's a very specific question today. Yeah, well, because you could go big, right? Every comic company has to grapple with depictions of history. Mhm I think what's interesting about marvel, of course, uniquely in comic book publishing, is that they really leaned into being real. So, of course, most comic fans know about the sliding timescale. And the way that that has to exist, because they'll have kennedy be the president in an issue of fantastic four, and then nixon be the president in an issue of captain america. So they're existing somewhat in real time. So I think, for that reason, it's always interested me how American history shows up in the comics or any history shows up, because essentially, they're telling a giant what if story in that case, but one that mirrors our world, right? Like, if the vietnam war was supposed to have happened the way that it played out in our world, but captain America exists and can comment on it. That is an interesting sort of twist. So I've always been fascinated, of course, probably the most they moved away from this because of the issue of the sliding timescale. The biggest M example, I think, in modern times is September 11. So the Marvel Comics dealt with September 11 head on because they take place in New York, and the publishing really.

Had to there, too, so everyone was probably affected by it on the ground.

Yeah. So I think that's the most recent example. I can think of a major world event showing up in Marvel Comics. So I've always been interested in how they deal with it. And I love social commentary stories, so I'm always interested in that, too. What about you? Did you ever think about the way American history shows up in Marvel Comics.

Before this question was just their depiction of World War II. A lot of this stuff with Nick Fury, and I always loved Baron von Strucker as a villain and him just being a N***. The biggest thing of them, having this prominent N*** villain and then also having Hydra also be a stand in for the Nazis and the Red Skull. So everything kind of around Nazis, Hydra, Nick Fury, all that kind of stuff. That was the most I feel like I really got into it. And even then, it's like after taking place after World War II, but still somewhat in the world, it's almost like World War II never really ended for a lot of those characters.

Yeah. So we're going to see today how a lot of American history events show up in Marvel Comics mhm.

So we are going to be traveling back in time to the bicentennial for this week's origins of the story. Right now on this very show, you're going to get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago, and this week we are discussing Captain America's bicentennial battles. Great title. A Marvel treasury from Marvel um Comics from June 1976. And the chapters are titled Mr. Buddha. That will make more sense in a moment. The Lost Superhero. My fellow Americans, stop here for glory and the face of the future.

All right, so this book is credited as being edited, conceived, and drawn by Jack Kirby. So I'm assuming he's the writer, but that's how he's credited in it. It's just a funny crediting. Of course, that also means he does the pencils. The inks are by Barry Windsor Smith, Herb Trimpy, and John Ramita. John Ramita. Three little names.

They are just doing the inks.

Four names. I mean, it's Jack, too, right? Like, this is a huge book that speaks to what they were trying to do here. It's Lettered by John Costanza, colored by Phil Rachelson, and again edited by Jack Kirby. So real quick, before we give a summary on the issue, marvel treasury editions are these oversized, tabloid size if you will, books that were one shot releases. They ran from 74 to 81, though they've been reprinting them especially recently, I think. Actually, this just came out last year. Again. Bicentennial battles. And they would sometimes, in fact, often reprint original stories, but sometimes be I mean, reprint previous stories and sometimes be original stories, like the famous that we've discussed, marvel, DC Wizard of Oz is a treasury edition, and they had over 30 treasury editions. Not too many, but not small either. This was right smack in the middle of the era. So this issue is, in theory, 6116. Why don't we start off with a summary of it?

Yeah, and the summary won't do it justice. Definitely.

No, it's a long issue also.

Yes. So Cap is summoned to the headquarters of Mr. Buddha, who's kind of like Buddha meets the Watcher very, uh well and Mr. Buddha promises Cap to show him the heart of America and proceeds to send him throughout time from the colonial era to the Old West, to the Depression, to Hollywood and much more.

And along the way, he very briefly fights the Red Skull in Hitler. He gets very annoyed by Ben Franklin and Betsy Ross because he discovers he's the inspiration for the American flag in a mind bending paradox. And he helps jump start the abolitionist mission of John Brown.

Eventually, he sees through a group of children that the true essence of America is that anyone can be what they want to be or achieve greatness. Yes.

Or as another Bicentennial story says, 1975 don't dream it, be it.

Exactly.

Nice Rocky Horror reference. So I had never, ever read this until we read it for this episode. I'm, ah, assuming it's true for you, too.

No, yeah, go ahead.

I liked it. I liked it a lot. I think it's weird in Kirby ways especially. I love just having just read the eternals Kirby's, uh, eternals maybe last year or the year before. This has so many elements. Like he's pulling on like, pyramid Power, which was that best selling book that came out in the 70s. So he's like really into New Age stuff showing up in his comics. I don't know if he himself believed it or was a practitioner, or if he just took it to do something. But I just love Buddha coming out of his pyramid and talking about the energy, and he talks all about mysticism and it makes no sense, but it's just fun. And I like that.

So we should say too. So this is a character. He looks kind of like Buddha, but he's basically got the Watcher like powers, because he's able to see in all these other I guess they're not really dimensions, right? They're just other points in time.

Yeah.

But he also has this very Kirby esque look, and that, uh, everything about it very Kirby. Kind of like the DC chair, right? That Teleports, that guy whose name I could ever remember around yeah.

Orion and the new gods. Uh, it sounds like you didn't like it.

No, I did. Well, I think it needs to be seen as like a product of its time. But see, the thing I like the most about it is that Cap is just constantly annoyed and frustrated throughout.

He is very annoyed that he keeps getting sent to these places.

He's not in awe that he's ending up in these various times. He's always kind of disgruntled that he's suddenly someplace else. And it's also got this kind of scrooge thing, uh, It's a Wonderful Life kind of thing, where he's dropped in these times. Then he's kind of like, whisked right out right away.

Well and he keeps thinking he learns the lesson and then Mr. Buddha keeps telling him, like, no, you haven't gotten it yet. Exactly. Try again. And I think that's where knowing whatever I do know about Jack Kirby, and I think what a lot of people who are his fans know, he was super progressive, super social justice oriented. And so I think it's in those moments that I actually really like the dialogue and the story, because that's where I'm assuming it's Kirby's perspective, is Mr. Buddha's, since it's a character created for this who doesn't mean anything. And that's where he keeps pushing back on Captain America and saying, like, no, it's not the parades, it's not the memorials, it's not the statues. That's not what america is. And I just appreciate any argument that is against Jingoistic Bravado or what people call patriotism, but is actually much more, I think, pathological. So I love Kirby pushing back on that in this moment, especially with all the bicentennial stuff you described. It's pretty cool that he was allowed to do that. Now the end ends in a very conservative place. And about the American myth, uh, of you can do anything and be anything, and even girls, too. Like, I love that the little girl literally says, even girls too.

Um, one kid also very capitalist too. Right. Because the one kid says, my father might not become a millionaire, but I might become a millionaire.

Exactly.

Great.

Good.

Aspiration but to the progressive fact that you were mentioning, there are a lot of I mean, there are some scenes that are kind of silly and are fun in a campy way, but there are other scenes that are pretty serious. So he's in the middle of the old west times and he's with Geronimo's Tribe, and there's about to be this massacre there, or actually the native people are about to attack the US. The white folks. And then Cap is not sure how he wants to respond there. And then he's also dropped into, uh, uh, the south. And he is protecting an escaped enslaved person who is not even in the south now, actually, it's in the north. And there are bounty hunters trying to capture this enslaved person. And then John brown's son joins the fight, and then we see John Brown at the end. So, yeah, there's these moments that are balancing out the sillier, more fun moments that come across more corny in 2023, but these moments that still actually resonate as being quite serious.

Yeah. And challenge, I think, a sense of I uh, mean, this is true today. It's actually, I feel like becoming more true today, sadly, just the way that people want to tell an American history that leaves these things out. And so to see Marvel, who was not I mean, for all of Stan's social justice orientation and kind of can't we all just get along? Mindset that I think shows up in very real and interesting ways. It's not a super progressive company by any means, then or now. And so it's cool to see that this came out with the bicentennial and isn't even then he gets to the nuclear explosion and he watches at Al Morgarado the explosion of the nuclear, uh, bomb. And it's cool. Like he's talking about the darkness, as you were saying. Like a lot of media was finally starting to, I guess, m question the quote unquote American dream. And I think that's being done here in a tiny, tiny, tiny dose.

Yeah, no, totally. I think that nuclear weapons nuclear bomb scene is one of the most resonant.

In the whole well, and that's where Kirby's art, like, just with the Kirby crackle, it totally fits with the destruction of the bomb and the way they're all sort of obsessing over it. And Captain America is like, but wait, is this obscenity ablaze in Satan's eye? Which is just insane language, but I love it.

Yeah. The other supervisual moment, I think, is when he ends up in Hollywood. And this is interesting because we saw elements of this in the first Captain America Marvel movie.

It did remind me of that. I was curious if that was an inspiration. Yeah. Especially because it has all the women, like, doing the dance in their red.

White and blue outfit, busby Berkeley with them all in their outfits and swirling around. But it has this nightmarish element to it. In fact, actually, one of my favorite movies actually, I mentioned Scorsese in the intro. One of my favorite movies is After Hours, where we have Griffin Dunn's character just kind of on this hellscape, where he's just going all throughout New York. And that's a little bit like Cap here.

Yeah, he's just getting shifted from place to place.

He has no idea what's going on. And uh, a lot of these moments are a little out, uh, of time. Well, that's an interesting too. What did you think about this not being a multiversal story like we're usually covering, but actually being a time travel story? So some people know who if he's after Cap has been introduced, they do know who he is.

Yeah. I think that's really cool that he never shows up in a fake world completely. So I, uh, think it's neat. I mean, it creates the one paradox, which is actually great because it reminds me of like, the Wonder Woman paradox. There's an iteration of her origin where her or I guess her mother, I don't know. Wearing the Stars and stripes is actually what inspired the Stars and Stripes. It's, um, some sort of loop that gets created. And so it's fun that they did that here. So other than that paradox, other than the idea that you'd have to believe that Cap going back is what inspired Betsy Ross to make the American flag with the design that it was made with. Yeah, other than that, it works.

I have it up here because I did laugh out loud. So Ben Franklin and Betsy Ross love the uniform and they start sketching it out. We actually don't really see the sketch, really, but we know it's the American flag. And then he shows it to Cap, and Cap is just taking a get back and he says, it isn't possible. It just isn't m possible. I've been ripped off by Benjamin Franklin.

That is weird. The other crazy moment I have to mention before we move on is, of course, that Jaw shows up in this. So that just speaks to the time that it's 1975 and completely inexplicably there is a two page sequence where we have Captain America fighting a shark and even refers to it as a Jaws at one point. So it's just so weird. I guess that was a very modern reference at the time, of course. So it's really weird. So it's a weird piece, an interesting piece, a good not great piece, but I liked it.

And I think one last thing before we move on to our next segment, because it does segue into that really well, is at the end, we actually get of the book, we actually get some pin ups and we get Cap in various other times. So we see a colonial Captain America where he's wearing a tricorner hat and he's got the circular stars he's finding off. So why couldn't the Red Skull have turned up as a Hessian N***? Uh, German, right.

And he's holding like an old school bomb.

Old timey bomb. Um, yeah. And then we also get your basic rudin tudin western Captain America, where he is, I guess, a cowboy Captain America. And then finally, um yeah, I love.

That design, by the way.

That one looks great. And it feels like we've seen characters kind of taking on that look later. And then we also finally get our Apollo Cap, where, uh, he's on the moon in his Captain America outfit with a sign that says mighty Marvel was.

Here and he's the astro hero.

Uh huh. But we'll see variations of that Captain America uniform in our next section. So let's start exploring.

Multiversity.

I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question what if?

And we are returning to the world of what if with What If? Featuring Captain America, volume One, issue One from February 2006. This is entitled what if Captain America Fought in the Civil War? Or we're asking the question, what if Captain America fought in the Civil War? The one from the US history and other tales of Cap in American history.

And so, again, this is part of a series of one shots that they did over a few years, all coming out at the end of 2005 together. Earth 7117. This is written by Tony Bedard. Penciled by Carmine Di jean do menaco inked by John Stanisi colored by Laverne Konzerski Lettered by Dave Lanfier, edited by Mark Panichia. So this has the wraparound where you have Hector Espe, who is the online watcher that exists in all of these one shots where his computer gets messed up and he now can use the computer to see into other worlds. Really cool setup, I think, for these one shots. And before we get into the plot of this one, tony Bedard at this point has been at Marvel and did a lot of work at Cross Gen, started at Valiant in DC. This is pretty late in his Marvel career. He only writes a few more Marvel books for a year after this before he's at DC for the next decade. Carmine, on the other hand, is an Italian artist and starts working for Marvel, doing some Conan in Italy in the 90s. Some creator owned work, does spiderman noir after this, so actually co creates the character and then does a run on the flash, but works mostly actually in film storyboards. So let's share this Earth 7117 from this what if. Because on this Earth, Steve Rogers is growing up in the 18 hundreds and is a corporal in the Union Army under Colonel Buck Barnes, who is corrupt and ends up trying to kill Steve. When Steve discovers Hem Plundering, but a.

Black soldier who is part of the.

Indian Home Guard, which is real in history, by the way, I did look it up to find out they are Indians who volunteered to participate in the Civil War.

Well, he has learned from a shaman. Steve was chosen to unify everyone and imbue him with power. So he becomes Captain America, dressed like.

An American Indian, and Bucky, under the same spell, ends up becoming the White Skull, having his face burned off. And we learn very quickly at that point the issue sort of ends that. Rogers ends the Civil War early, preventing a lot of deaths and battles and the death of Lincoln, but the White.

Skull still exists, and he's raised up the KKK and that for generations, his descendants have followed in his footsteps to fight Captain America.

And they're captain America captain America's descendants.

He's still fighting White Skull terrorists to this day.

General America, in fact, I think it's like his great grandson or something. And General America now yeah. Is fighting White Skull terrorists. So that is our summary of this what if universe. What do you think of it?

I think there's some really great stuff and some not so great cultural things in there. But I think the basic kind of story I like, and I was also surprised at times by it. What about you?

Yeah, I think what's m weird about it is it's a very alternate version for a what if. It doesn't have a point of divergence. Because even having Steve Rogers exist in the 1860s, which is unexplainable. Right. There's no divergence there. That's just an alternate universe. There's no point of divergence, which I'm completely okay with. He's just born at a different time. But then it really doesn't track on to Captain America's origin. Again, I'm okay with that, but it's very unfamiliar. There's no Super Soldier serum. Um, there's no volunteering for the war effort. I guess there is in the sense that he's fighting for the Union. So there's elements of it that feel really unique. And I actually like that in what if because we've talked about when you have that single point of divergence in a what if issue, I think the story can be either really good or really bad. Either you're just staying in the status quo or you're doing something really interesting. This just tears everything up and you get a whole alternate telling. So I liked that aspect of it, that it was ambitious.

Mhm yeah, I totally agree with you. I think maybe, though, too, what you're almost saying, though, is maybe it isn't really even a what if or it's not a what if in what we say it is an alternate universe. And maybe that Marvel was just using the what if banner at that time, of course, called it a what if. But going back to some of the classic what ifs yeah, it doesn't have that one point of divergence, which no.

So interestingly, they had abandoned in volume two, as we know, they had abandoned what if questions. And a lot of the one shots that they have done since, they really don't use a ton of questions. This one, and generally you and I have made up the questions when that's the case. This one, though, interestingly, they do put the question at the beginning, and it's not totally accurate. It's. What if Captain America had fought in the Civil War? I guess it's accurate, but it's totally different for all the reasons we've described.

And what did you think of? I think one of the biggest differences in this story, which is the depiction of the Bucky Barnes character. And that's what I was saying when I said I was surprised by it because I was surprised how evil they make this character from the start. There's no inciting incident that makes this character then have a turn when we meet him. He is already.

Evil.

Well, he gets so much worse, too. What I think is jarring for me, uh, maybe it has a little bit. Maybe I found it jarring because it depends on a really black and white moral sense, which I think the best Captain America stories like Kirby's don't uphold that. Because what's strange to me is I actually thought he was going to be sympathetic, because when it turns out he's stealing stuff, he actually says, like, well, the north is going to need money because the north has depended on the South's use of slave labor. And now that we're ending that system, as we should be, we are going to need more money, and so we're going to sort of pillage where we can. Now, uh, you don't have to agree with that tactic, but the argument is a little bit rational, and it made sense to me.

He's also just killing everyone, too.

Well, that's where he takes a turn. Then suddenly he's killing everyone and decides he's going to kill Steve Rogers. It's interesting to me that the thing that makes Steve question him doesn't make me question him. It's only then that we see that he's actually, like, a mass murderer and insane and ultimately racist because he reforms the KKK and all that. But just that I thought it was weird that the thing that makes Steve question him was actually, like an interesting philosophical question to me, was like, oh, is it okay to steal these things because they're dismantling the system of oppression.

Well, and I think it's interesting that they make the antagonist the union in this story as well. And that isn't to, uh, go back to what you were saying in terms of the black and white. That's not really a black and white area there, because they didn't make the south villa, and maybe they didn't want to I don't know, maybe they didn't want to anchor the Southern readers. So they thought, okay, we're going to make the north also the bad guys in this and have these bad apples here. But I think it all I don't.

Know if that's the case, because I did at least feel like I'm always nervous when there's, uh, any question that the Civil War wasn't totally about slavery. They flat out say it is completely. That is what we're fighting over.

But I think it is an interesting choice, I think, to have the north be the bad guys. And it actually kind of makes me think of more modern storytelling around the depiction of law enforcement and the police, where it's still sometimes rare to see a story that shows the police as being the antagonist. And we're seeing it more here, but I think you could almost see shades of that in this story as well.

Yeah. So the elephant in the room that we both referred to is the fact that, as far as I can tell, tony Badard is not of American Indian descent. We know Carmine di Giondo emenico, uh, is not he's from Italy? And there is a lot of appropriation of mystic Indians in this.

Archetype, magical indigenous person, who also in this story is not just have that power, which I think would be troublesome onto itself, but if that character had also been Kick A** and the hero, I think we could say, well, okay, but he is still Kick A** here. He's really just using that power to save the white character.

Because what's weird is what's interesting, and I'm sure it was a real story, but he's not an American Indian. He was a black, freed, enslaved person as a child who got raised on an Indian reservation. So it's a weird choice, and I fully appreciate the idea of alliances amongst people of color and all of that, but it's just strange to me. I don't know why maybe to avoid the cultural appropriation argument, he decided to make him a black character instead of an American Indian character. I don't know.

Yeah, it only Mudies it further a little bit, and then by the fact that he just gets I thought at first, oh, he's going to become like because his name is Wilson. Right. So I thought, oh, he's going to be the Sam Wilson. But no, he gets killed pretty much right after he resurrects Steve, though, I.

Think he is supposed to be the Sam Wilson, because that's why the Eagle comes in earlier and attacks Bucky, and it feels like it was predestined. So I'm assuming that's like a falcon reference, and that's the Mysticism, they're pulling in this idea of Falcon, and so they're using some of the imagery of the Captain America that we know, but not adhering, obviously, to any of the story. So I think it's a really interesting and original issue. I like it. Mhm. That's it. Yeah.

That's all I have to say about it. Well, I guess we'll get to this right now in terms of whether we want to revisit this world, because what's interesting and right at the end, it almost feels like it was just, like, squeezed in. Oh, we ran out of pages. Let's put this in. Because they then add this stuff where Lincoln wasn't assassinated and the KKK yeah.

All that alternate history stuff then, um.

Yeah, but we also know that this new the White Skull terrorist group has been formed. So I think I would actually it's tough because there's some things can we even get over some of the appropriation? But there's also interesting stories maybe to still be told in this universe, where many of the events that we know following the Civil War did not occur.

Yeah, I agree. I feel the same way. I'm of two minds, and I'd rather that the return to this world be the way it happens in the next story that we read. Uh, well, just why I picked it.

Let us get into that then. And start pondering.

Possibilities.

Will the future you describe be averted? Diverted? Averted? So what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?

So I, uh, want a few places. There is interestingly, there is a character that shows up in Secret Avengers that, it turns out, was a super soldier who lived before the Civil War and has lived through and fought in the Civil War. So I started looking at that to see if we should go there. I looked for other Civil War depictions. There are a few other, actually alternate universe depictions of the Civil War in Marvel Comics. Interestingly.

The Kirby pretty much avoids the Civil War. There's a brief moment where they say, oh, it's about it's on the horizon, but it's one of the big US. History points that it actually does not.

Cover well, other than the abolitionism.

Yeah, but that's, I think, where they're saying, oh, it's like it's about to happen, or something like that, but it hasn't.

Yeah. Uh, but then I decided that actually, it was interesting. I was looking at a reference to the Civil War in another issue of the United States of Captain America, and then I remembered this issue of United States Captain America, which debuts our Joe Gomez, our, uh, Captain America of the Kickapoo Tribe. So our Native American Indian captain America. And I thought, OOH, let's read this.

Share what it is hard as anything to search Captain America Civil War and find research that doesn't have to do with the big event. So, yeah, let's get into it. So someone is killing Captain, but what America?

The issue itself is yes.

I'm so excited to talk about it. So. United States of Captain America, volume One, issue Three from October 2021. And there's actually two stories in here. One is looking for Uncle Sam, and the other is people like us.

And the first story is written by Christopher Cantwell. Penciled and inked by Dale Eaglesham colored by Matt Miller lettered by Joe Carmagna edited by Alana Smith. And the second story is written by Darcy Little badger penciled by David Cutler and inked by Roberto Padgy with colors again by Matt Miller and letters again by VC's. Joe Caramagna. So we read this. It is issue three of the United States of Captain America miniseries, which each issue debuts a new Captain America in this overarching story and then has a backup telling their origin story.

Now, go ahead. Someone is killing Captain Americas, and Steve and Sam are on the case.

They encounter Joe Gomez, the Captain America of the Kickapoo tribe, which is a real tribe in central US. And Mexico. And he is a mechanic and construction worker who moonlights as a Captain America fighting for his community.

Together, they try to stop an assassination attempt on a native candidate for governor.

And, uh, then Joe gets injured, and the story continues without him in the next issue. But in the backup, we see the.

Origin story for Joe, where, when working as a construction worker, he stopped a member of the Wrecking Crew, but almost died in the process, being saved by Steve at the last second, which inspired him to become his own Cap.

So I've read this miniseries. I've read this issue before. You haven't. So you start us off. It's a little out of context because there is this one five issue story. But what did you think?

I thought it was a lot of fun and I actually had no idea about the structure, so I did not know that we were going to see Joe's origin story because at one point, Joe says to Steve, oh, you don't remember?

You don't remember me?

M? And I was like, oh, wait, is this something we were supposed to know? I'm not sure. So I then like, oh, how we get his origin story later? But I think it's a fun issue. It's kind of weird that you have Speed Demon pretending to be.

Cap, red Skull's daughter also pretending to be Cap. You have two people she's pretending in the previous issue. Yeah. Uh, I really love these issues. I wish that they'd gotten more attention other than the negative manufactured culture war attention that they got. Because the first issue, of course, debuts the gay Captain America, Aaron Fisher. But I think it's cool. I mean, you have a little bit of, uh, a question of appropriation here. I don't know, actually, if Christopher cantwell possibly identifies as American Indian, but he can't identify as everyone who he debuts in these five issue series. He does give a special thanks to kickapoo consultants Keith and Mosaic, Blue Cloud. And then of course, the origin backup is written by Darcy, who is an American Indian Marvel Comics writer who has written some recently, also some Danny Moonstar stories.

Well, it feels very different, though, because it doesn't have the magical element totally. As we were just saying, we do get Joe being a kick a** hero onto himself. He's not just there to kind of get almost fridged in a way. Steve right. So, yeah, I think in that way it really overcomes a lot of the obstacle well, a lot of the self made obstacles that the what if has.

Well, and you also get and this is the part written by Darcy, you get some explicit social commentary stuff like when he I love when he's falling off the iron girder, and he says, uh, but I'm native in the USA. When people like me fall nine times out of ten, we were pushed, and we almost always hit the and then Steve grabs him and interrupts the cycle that we know that native people have, uh, significant higher rates of death by all sorts of things alcoholism, suicide, disease, all sorts of factors that are outrageous and should not be the case. So I like that there is social commentary explicitly in here.

Well, I think the other social commentary that kind of happens in the first half is that they're trying to stop this assassination attempt on this Native person who's running for governor. They stop the assassination attempt, and yet the person still decides to drop out of the primary because of the risk to his family, and that it was maybe just too soon, this character's words to run there. So I think it's interesting. It's like, oh, that would not be something, maybe that a white character would be experiencing this need to drop out because of this threat. So it's in the background, but it is super important to the story. And also, I thought it gives it, uh, a depth because, oh, they saved this guy, and yet still they failed in a way.

Yeah. So let's talk about the connective tissue in these three books. I think, for me, what stands out in these three books, including the Alternate universe, I don't know if I'd say it it influenced Chris Cantwell or Darcy Lobedger, but I think that the things that are true in all three are one, and that you can't separate any idea of America from Native Americans. Mhm and so, Kirby, you said you were drawn to that chapter of that story where Kirby has him, withdrawn himo, obviously, in the what if, it's core to the retelling of the story, whether it's ultimately executed well or in a just way or not. And this one, ah, it is the story, and he is one of five central characters who are being brought forward as a version of Captain America. So I think that's one important thread.

I think an important thread for me is that Cap as a character can easily be put into all these different worlds. And maybe this is controversial, and maybe you'll disagree, but I feel like he doesn't have as pronounced a personality as, say, Peter Parker, who, if he was dropped into the revolutionary ward, you'd maybe like, why is this sarcastic 20 year old running around making fun of us? But Steve is more representative of an idea, so I think he can exist in all these different times, and it just works in a way that a character that has a more modern feel.

Wouldn'T necessarily yeah, and I'm all for the Chris Evans version of that. Let's get a whole ten episode miniseries with Chris Evans going from time to time to time.

Well, it could have been when he gets sent back to return the gem.

Something I've got the explanation already mapped out in my mind. The other connective thread, I think, is in the design. So this is really from the What If to this. Mhm and I don't know that Dale Eaglesham was inspired by Carmine's work in the What If that we read, but it's just hard to separate out, like, the look of sort of a red, white, and blue infused with elements of Native American Indian culture that we understand.

So there's that connection, I think, going to the Kirby as well. One interesting thing, aside from Ben Franklin, because the flag hadn't been invented yet, I think one thing that we see is nobody is totally freaked out to see this guy in this red, white.

And blue outfit, because he explains it sometimes in Hollywood. He's like, oh, I'm around all these people with costumes, so they're not questioning me.

But people know what that is. And if it had been, again, Spider Man or something like that, you'd go, wait, what is this? I mean, he's red and blue too, but it's not like the flag, right? Or you saw Iron Man and be like, oh my gosh, this is so out of our world if we're in the old west, right? But everyone knows what the flag is. So I think you can see that all through those times. And then when we see the native indigenous interpretations of the costume, we instantly go, oh, we know exactly what that is. And I think that's something so unique in a way, about his costume that you wouldn't see with a lot of other characters. Just like when we think of the Spiderverse movies, a lot of the costumes don't look anything like the originals Peter Parker costume.

Yeah, well, one of the important things about having someone like Darcy Little Badger write this is that she gets to talk about the meaning of the costume in the final page, and because he says, like, so much suffering in the name of the red, white, and blue. And yet when I dance at intertribals, I'm connected to everyone in the circle. We are people of the land called America. And so if Cap's mantle truly represents the people, I'm claiming it for people like me. And that's another interesting piece, I would say. It's actually not so much in our what if, but Kirby's story is completely about the people. That's what Mr. Buddha is really doing, is saying, like, no, it's about the people. It's not about the ideas. It's not about the celebrations. It's about the people. And so that's a cool moment at the end of this.

And I think even getting back to the United States of Captain America, it's like, all these people can become Captain America. It's about the people. As you said. It's not about Steve Rogers. It's not about Sam Wilson. Joe Gomez can become a Captain America, and Steve doesn't try to stop him. Steve, in fact. And Joe thinks, oh, that's why you've showed up. You're here to stop me from being Cap. And Steve says, no, um, that's not it. He wants these other people. Because, again, goes back to that Kirbyesque thing where it's all about the people.

Yeah. So happy 4 July. I'd be happy if any of these stories got adapted, because I think that they all have some complexity about America and what Captain America means in terms of America.

Mhm, yeah. And we need our cap to battle our real world white skulls.

That indeed there are a lot. So I think that is a wrap, but not really, because it's giveaway week.

Oh, my gosh. Well, I was wondering what was underneath that giant Captain America shield that you've been carrying on screen. Move the shield away and.

Reveal. As we said, we wrapped up our DC spec bundle, but today makes complete sense to have a Marvel spec bundle. Uh, so why don't you tell everyone what they need to do to win, and then I'll tell everyone what they can win.

Okay, you are just going to need to DM m us on any platform or email podcast@dearwatchers.com with a screenshot of a post about Dear Watchers that you can put anywhere on any social media platform and tag three friends. So, once again, DM us, uh, on any platform or email us with a screenshot of a post about Deer Watchers that you could put anywhere and tag three friends.

All right, so what do we have here? Ah, let me see. So, I have a whole bunch of Marvel comics that may apply to upcoming MCU things happening. So let's start with the secret defenders. Uh, issue three. The secret defenders. I feel like they are definitely building things up, too. And on the COVID we also have Julia Carpenter Spiderwoman, who we know is in Madame Webb for effect. We have a little bit of It's seen better Days, but a, uh, miniseries of Sword, the first issue, which is, of course, one of the earliest appearances of Abigail Brand. Everyone thought that, uh, what's her name in secret evasion amelia Clark was going to be Abigail. She's not. So there's still time for Abigail. We have an issue of Invaders from the 1970s, because I continue to think that the invaders are a great place to mine, especially for Union Jack, the gay superhero that gets ignored and has a connection in Secret Invasion. We've got an issue of cable, because why not? Cable is popular. We've got a reprint of Kitty Pride and Wolverine, a reprint of the first Quasar. We have damage control issue number one. Long rumored damage Control supposed to be a comedy series coming out. Well, here is issue number one. We have another issue of a Defenders with Dr. Strange on the COVID and a Captain Marvel with Marvell, because who knows who is going to be in the Marvels this fall, and we might see some of these other Captain Marvels.

A warm up for your Whatnot.

Show. I have long said I don't know that I have the personality for Whatnot, but, uh, our listeners can tell us. I said I would want you to do it. Um, all right, but to get these nine issues, just mention us on social media, tag three friends, and send us a screenshot, because we just want more people to listen to us like you do. And that's how you can win these nine issues shipped to you and that is a wrap. Dear listeners, thank you for listening. I have been guido. The reading list is in the show notes. You can follow us on all social media. Dear watchers, I'm going to continue that audio in just a moment.

Thank you. Leave review wherever you listen to podcast. We'll be back soon for another trip through the multiverse.

In the words of watching you keep pondering the possibilities to the republic for.

Which it stands, one nation m under God, indivisible, with m liberty and justice for all. Captain America he's fighting for freedom. He's fighting for truth. Captain of America there when we need him. He always comes through. He was a slave man like you and me. He went through a change so the world could be free. He took on a new life. He took in the name. He went through a rebirth and then he became Captain America. He's fighting for freedom. He's fighting for truth. Captain US america he always comes through. Whatever the evil, whatever the crime. He'll bring them to justice. And they'll do the time he's there to protect us he's ready to fight he stands against evil he says hope what's right captain America captain America captain America when evil's around you know he'll be there mhm captain A merry God be warned you better beware captain a merry God he's fighting for freedom he's fighting for truth. Captain America. When we need him, he always comes you captain America. America. Captain America. America. Captain America. America. Captain America. America. Captain.