Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Welcome to Dear Watchers, a comic book omniverse podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

We are traveling through the storylines before and after that inspired or took inspiration from this week's amazing alternate universe. And your watchers on this journey continue.

To be me Guido and me Rob. Or is it really Me Rob? Um, do I just look like Rob?

You're Rob in quotes.

Yes, exactly.

And I'll be Guido. Four, which will all become clear, ish to listeners in a few minutes what even we are talking about.

Yes. But before we get to that Guito, anything new in our multiverse?

Well, this episode is a special celebration for two reasons. One, it's being timed with the 4 July. So we chose a very on theme issue universe to explore because this episode is releasing on the 4 July 2022.

And we're nothing if patriotic American. I wanted to do the Pledge of Allegiance to kick this episode off, but this calm fairy I co host this podcast with Nick Said idea.

No, they actually use the word fruit in the issue. So I'll be a commie fruit. Thank you very much. This is also our 52nd episode. So it's actually kind of our year anniversary episode that we're not using it to celebrate and mark that moment. I guess it technically is a year of episodes.

Are you going to be here? No. And I'm just thinking the, uh, next episodes are going to be The New 52. It's a comic book joke there.

I know. Yeah. It is funny to imagine, like, what would happen if we tried to sort of reboot ourselves next week and what different people would we be if we rebooted ourselves? Like the way Grant Morrison's reboot of Superman in the New 52. He's, like wearing the jeans and has the cut off t shirt and stuff.

So that's tricky.

Yeah. I was going to be dying my hair this week. So maybe it does work for The.

New there you go.

New 52 next week. But really it's fun. Even though we're going to do a lot more to mark this, I guess probably my biggest surprise is that we stayed to a weekly release. I think that is really I'm patting us on the back for that.

Yes, I agree. For me, I think I've come out of this year knowing so much more about comics and these characters because you really went in as the expert and you are still the expert. But I think I have now come out with a newfound knowledge and newfound appreciation for these characters, these stories, and these multiverses.

I'm a teacher in so many ways.

It only took doing a podcast for me to actually sit down and listen.

To you and for me to actually be able to teach you without yelling, that's true.

That's true. Because those parts out.

We'll remark a lot more on the meaning of our anniversary because we have a bunch of secret surprise guests joining us for an anniversary special coming in a few weeks. So pay attention to that. Until then, we need your help. We want to keep growing. And so if you're listening to this, can you please share it with two other people this week? Tell two other people on Twitter or on Instagram, which, um, we're not on, or wherever you are or in life, go to your local comic store, tell them about us, please. We need your help. We want to grow our listener community in the second year, and we need your help to do that.

Yes, like Haley Joel Osmond said, pay it forward or I see dead people.

I know. That's a deeper poll.

All right, onward. Well, and if you're joining us for the first time, well, I hope you share this wonderful podcast with everybody. But let me give you a quick summary of the alternate Earth we are visiting. So we are going to start with origins of the story, discovering what inspired this other reality. Then we'll move to exploring multiversity, diving deeper into that alternate universe, and finally pondering possibilities, examining the impact and what's followed or what's coming in the future. And I think there's lots to talk about, especially in that last segment with this issue. So, with that, Dear Watchers, welcome to episode 52, and let's check out what's happening in the multiverse with today's alternate universe. And today, we are asking the question, what if Captain America were not revived until today? And today being sometime in the 1980s, not 2022.

A lot more on that when we get into the background on this issue. But before that, let's get a quick summary of Earth 8444. So this is Earth Eight four four. And on this Earth, Namor in Avengers Four does not actually find Steve Rogers frozen at the bottom of the ocean. And so the Avengers disband. They have no center of the team, I guess. And we end up with a resurrection of, uh, Captain America Four, Bucky Two, who were the 1950s Cap and Bucky. Now, in the Captain America series, we'll look at the moment that is essentially what if tier, the divergent moment. They are resurrected in six one six continuity. But here they're resurrected in place of Steve Rogers existing. They become a force for heroism against crime. They want to restore America to its glory. And you can just feel the fascism and racism bleeding out of them as they start to deepen their campaign.

They get red baseball caps away from reality.

They get approached by the Committee to Regain America's Principles, also known as Crap, which I love. And they are then getting a senator elected who basically wants to start a national ID program, a federal jobs Bureau. All of this becomes a way to create a fascistic American government. They pass a bunch of emergency orders to give them complete authority. Meanwhile, a submarine discovers Steve Rogers, captain America uh, and so he returned to the US. To find a bunch of soldiers, essentially what he calls Nazis, but they're wearing Captain America a's on their heads. There is now a walled off Harlem. There is a control of the press. People are living in poverty, but they're being told something else. There is a second revolution being fomented in these walled off areas of cities in New York. It has Nick Fury. It has Snap Wilson, it has Peter Parker. So Steve Rogers joins them. Meanwhile, we know that Cap and his whole team of, um, cadre's secret empire people will go through who they are, are starting to make their move to really create absolute, totalitarian authority. But Cap attacks them. And essentially, of course, the real Cap, the real Cap beats the fake Cap and does so with some really extraordinary speeches and remarks that are current for today 2022, wildly. And we will get into why when we get deeper into the issue. But that is the summary of Earth.

Real quick guitar before we kind of get into our backstories with Captain America. Captain, uh, America Four is the Captain America that was fighting in the this whole kind of a lot of the issues we're going to be talking about today kind of work to retcon that story, because the story we all know is, um, that Steve was trapped in the ice and then came back in the 60s.

Yeah. And I'll give that story background when we get to the Captain America issue that brings that character back ten years prior to the what if. So, first, real quick, let's recap. We have talked about Captain America a few times on this show, including our second episode, which is a real great classic. Maybe it's a little long winded, but a real great classic episode. What if Captain America were elected president? But let's recap our background. What was your background with Captain America?

He was not a character I read too much. In fact, the, uh, run of his I had the most was the Rob Lakefield run, when I guess yeah. The Heroes Reborn. Exactly. That was the one I was really reading. Never my favorite character because he was a little bit more the normal one within the Avengers. Uh, and of course, I think we both love Chris Evans performance. But, yeah, that, um, was about it. I didn't go too deep into him until we really started to do this podcast. And he's still a character I don't know super well because I didn't know this whole 50s backstory with him.

Yeah, for me, it's similar, as people know, I've read comics since the so I read some Cap stuff, especially because I read every Marvel event, and he was always involved, especially in the bigger events and especially in the last 20 years. But I was never a huge fan of his solo title. My interest grew more in the last few years when I also developed a love of Mark Ruin wall to inspired this podcast and had a really iconic and undervalued run on Cap, I'd say. So I started to discover that Cap was actually a much more interesting, at times uh, really strange and kooky and at times really political and progressive title and was not as boring as I thought. But most of my knowledge does come from the last few years in terms of the background of Cap, other than the last 2025 years, where I do know everything that sort of has happened to him as a huge comics fan. And then, yes, I like everyone I have to love Quick Evans. And there's no choice any of us were given in that pack. We all made with the devil.

That's true. And Gito, I just have to say, you started reading comics in the so good. Were you frozen in an iceberg somewhere?

Okay, moving right along.

Okay. Well, we've talked about our origins with Captain America, but now let's dig into the origins of the story.

Right now on this very show. You're going to get the answer to all your questions.

Our amazing story begins a few years ago, and we're not going to start at the very beginning of Captain America, but let's say the beginning did that.

In our second episode. If anyone wants to go back and.

Listen, go back and listen to those. But that one. But the first, let's say modern Captain America. So that's Avengers number four from March 1964 Nets, simply titled Captain America Joins the Avengers.

Yeah. So this is written by Stan Lee, pencil by Jack Kirby, inked by George Russos, colored by Stan Goldberg, letter by Arty Simack, edited by Stan himself. This is the tale destined to become a magnificent milestone in the Marvel age of comics, with the editor's note that both of us laughed at saying, we sincerely suggest you save this issue. We feel you'll treasure it in time to come. And we read it because it brings Steve Rogers back to what is, of course, then the modern age from World War II, from having been frozen in World War II. That mythology gets created here in this issue, avengers number four, which does complicate things. And we'll get to that in a moment. So what do you think, Revisiting, this issue? We've talked about it before. We've read it before. Super famous. What do you think, Revisiting?

I think it's a great issue, and I like how it slowly integrates Cap or Steve into the Avengers story. And I think tying into today's discussion when he wakes up, uh, I, uh, think what really stood out for me is that he does still have trauma, even in this stand and Jack version, which is not going as deep as some of the later versions we're going to talk about. But there's this great moment where he's been asleep, and he suddenly wakes up and he says, bucky, it's, you because he sees this teenage figure in the darkness and it turns out to be Rick Jones. But you kind of still get that mania that Captain America Four will really dive into.

Well, the Kirby helps with that. Like, that moment you're describing, he's like.

Bug eye, wide eyed, classic Jack Kirby, giant eyeball kind of look. But you kind of get that because so much of Steve is that even keel kind of character. And that does come across in this issue. But here you do get that, like, crazed, hey, this man out of time kind of element.

Yeah, I think there also are some emotional beats. I mean, right before that moment you're talking about, we have the cop who starts crying because he remembers Captain America, which is a pretty powerful thing. 1963. Like to have a superhero comic have an emotional core, where there's a grown man moved to tears. And I know it's perhaps because of something related to American pride or something, but there's a lot going on in this story. There are a lot of layers. There's also just a lot going on in terms of plot. I forgot that the Asparagus creature they made, it basically that he's medusa, this alien creature. There's so much in this that I actually, even having just read it a year ago, could not remember. I love at the end, it sort of teases us that Rick is now worried that he's with Cap and Hulk is going to be jealous and fight them. And there's so much set up. There's so much going on. So it's really fun.

Yeah. And I think reading this and reading so many of the issues we're about to talk about, one thing that is lost a little bit in time now is that this was really happening in real time, that Steve had been frozen for 20 years. And we're kind of getting that real time feel of a person waking up 20 years later. And of course, that's kind of lost with the sliding timescale now. But it really does resonate when you're reading this, putting your mindset into 1964.

Great.

So now let's jump ahead to the down and dirty 1970s with Captain America issue, uh, number 155 and 156. Those are the incredible origin of the other Captain America from November 1972 and Two into One won't Go from December 19. Very odd title. Um, I don't know what that means, even having read the issue, but that's from December 1972.

So these issues are written by Steve Engelhart, pencil by Sal Busima, inked by Frank Mcgochlin, lettered by Gene ISO, edited by Roy Thomas. And the second, uh, 156 is lettered by Sam Rosen. That's the only change there. The first issue also, I should say, gives a credit to John Ramita Jr. Actually, John Ramita Jr. This is because it re purposes pages of young men from the 1950s. So a little background. We read these because these are the origin of captain America Four, who actually, until the 2000s, is unnamed, but we find out in the 2000s, which we'll get to at some point in this conversation, that his name is William Burnside, so we'll call him William Burnside, but he's also known as Captain America Four. And the reason for that is because over the years, as you pointed out earlier, they had to reckon the fact that Captain America as a character, uh, at pre Marvel publishing, but Marvel ultimately comics. There were other Captain America stories being told after World War II, but then in 1964, Stan decides, well, Sam and Jack decide, well, let's pull Captain America back into the Marvel universe, and let's do it from World War II. And so they had to fix the fact that but wait a second. If you want to create a single continuity of all Marvel comics, uh, from even pre Marvel, so now we're talking 1940s through to current, then you have to deal with the fact that a Captain America and a Bucky and a Red Skull somehow existed in the so this to issue arc from the early 70s is an attempt to do that with the character who's ultimately known as Captain America Four. There's two other Captain Americas who serve brief tenures. This is the one who is understood to have served in the 50s, post Korean War, Big Red Scare stuff going on and in these issues of what was known as young men or whatever the, uh, title is of that comic. So that this is how they try to fix bringing him into our world, young men.

It's interesting to think that, I guess even in 1970s, you had continuity nerds that were looking at this and going, wait a second. Wait a second. It feels like that is such a modern construct where people are on reddit and talking and talking about these kinds of things. But it clearly happened in the so much that they were aware that they wanted this to all fit together as one perfect thing, because they could have easily said, oh, yeah, that happened in the 50s. Whatever skipped that, it wasn't real.

Well, I think it's a few factors. Yes, those nerds existed. And, you know, because I've told you sometimes I've talked about it on here, but I've told you pointed out to you just the letters, pages from the really amazing things to look at. And you can see that fan culture being created very early in Marvel. And so this is a decade into modern Marvel, and so there is that huge fan culture, and then you also have the presence of someone like a Roy Thomas, who we know is known for that kind of continuity storytelling. And so it makes sense that this is happening and that there's also a fidelity to that kind of storytelling, which is neat, I guess. A real quick summary of this. What ends up happening is that we find out that william Burnside, who was Captain America for, was actually a kid who admired the original Captain America. He went to Germany, tracked down the notebooks, found the Super Soldier serum, brought it to the US. Government to do testing, and actually then also got physical cosmetic, uh, surgery so that it would look and sound like Steve Rogers. But the Korean War ends, and he meets Jacob Bucky. Two Jack Monroe, later becomes Nomad and is somewhat inspired to put the uniform on again, which is where then the 50 stories start. But then they are frozen. They're frozen because they're, like, going crazy.

Yeah. Right.

So they're like, these two are going crazy. They explain it in the story that they have the Super Soldier serum, but they did not have the whatever the.

Uh, light ray ion beams. Yeah, the light ray that made it. So the serum in the real Cap didn't corrupt his mind. But because these two didn't have that, they started to go crazy.

Yeah, the Vita Rays. And so without that, they freeze them. But then, um, in the 70s, because Nixon is starting to build bridges with China and Russia, someone who's very anti communist decides, I need to resurrect those guys. They were really anti communist, resurrects them. And that's how we get this to issue story where Cap four Bill Burnside fights the original Steve Rogers and Sharon Carter and Sam Wilson. And it's a whole fun beach island, miami beach set battle with sunburns and bathing suits and my Gosh wild ride. So where do you want to start with these two?

Well, I think right away, one thing I was struck by is the underlying darkness of these issues and mainly through our antagonists. And I'm still thinking, like, oh, comics didn't really become dark and serious until much later. Maybe what we now think of as the more modern era, the post Alan Moore era. But, wow, it's here in these two characters right off the bat. And what's so smart that Steve Englehart does is, like, he starts with this kind of silly scene of Steve and Sharon, uh, on the beach, and they're both sunburned. And then it moves, introduces these antagonists. And right away, when Sam appears, like they are very racist in a way that still feels very shocking, uh, especially in a comic book intended for mostly children.

Yeah, I think I'd argue and I think a lot of people would argue this that Marvel, and I don't think DC has this, but I'm not a DC expert, but Marvel's Bronze Age was a lot darker and was a lot more politically astute than people remember and realized, and in fact, might in some ways, be darker and more political than they even allow the comics to be today under the corporate ownership that they have. It is all really there and explicit, even, because they also don't construct any fake. Like, they talk about Democrats, they talk about Republicans, they talk about communists. They talk about the civil rights in Harlem and the Watts riots. And all of it is in there. They are placing it in the real world. And so you can clearly read this. And first of all, you know the writers positions, and you also can take your own position. And that's, I think, been left out of comics in the corporate overlord era.

Yeah. And what Burnside says, which really, I think, resonates a lot, is that it's not that it's necessarily, um I mean, they are racist, but so much of it is like, hey, by having people speak out there crumbling our greater democracy, which we use all the time, you hear right now, it's like, oh, you know, they are right, but they're correct. We should give black people more rights. But how they're doing it is not how we should do it. And like, oh my gosh, that is an argument that you hear today.

Yeah, that's what's so astute about this. And I think that probably came from the very young, very progressive bullpen culture of New York based Marvel. But, yeah, there are a lot of arguments in here that you hear to this day on a conservative side or on a right wing side trying to shut down people who are questioning things about the US. Or are seemingly just different and looking to embrace that heterogeneous world. So I think it's really fun and great. I even love the sunburn part. Clearly, it's done here. I mean, you can tell it's done so we can distinguish the two characters when they're fighting. So we know Steve is the redskinned one, and then we know that Bill Burnside is the white one, and they're.

Very consistent with it because even later, the real Steve still has this redder skin. So it is a really helpful device from a reader perspective.

Yeah. One astute thing is that he's reflective in the end, Steve, about the fact that that could have been him. And something I think I want to talk about when we get into the what if and more, is how many writers take the position of Captain America is a hair away from being like a right wing bigot. And it's neat that in the end, Steve realizes that Steve walks away not saying, Oh, that's not me. That guy was insane. He walks away saying, that could be me.

Yeah, really? I think I'm a big fan of a lot of the movies that came out in the in this kind of second golden age, this Easy Riders, Raging Bulls era that they call it. And you had so many movies that were telling these kind of dark, conspiratorial stories and very American based stories chinatown, all the President's Men, Nashville Network that were all kind of talking about these themes. And you see so much of that here, this kind of dark conspiracy, the underbelly of America really kind of coming out, uh, in mainstream film for the first time. And I saw so much of that here. And also, I think there was a rise in, say, Chinatown and bringing back the neonoir. And I got a lot I don't know if you agree, I got a lot of noirishness from Steve Englehart's writing. Some of the writing he does have that it's not realistic in the same way that Stan's dialogue is not realistic. But it goes, I think, even a step further into unreality that stand does, while the story itself, though, remains very realistic because we're experiencing it today.

Well, you even have like, the crooked cops and then there's even the crooked cops in New York, which is a seed being planted for a larger story that unfolds past these issues. So yeah, I could see a lot of those neonoir taxi Driver or whatever element totally in this.

Yeah. And even then, though, there's still like, also this Zeny in this sometimes from the 70s. So the one cop is nicknamed JW. And that's like JW. Cole Pepper in like, The Living Let Die and The Man with the Golden Gun. There's the Southern, uh, cop in those movies. So I think it's almost a reference to that as well. He's still hinting at like, also this guy kind of 70s wackiness along with the 70s darkness that you see.

Yeah. So before we move on from this, there are a few other issues that we didn't read, mostly for the sake of time, and they become a little less important. But prior to the what if, we do see William Burnside again. And at that point he's been brainwashed by Dr. Faustus and becomes a villain called The Great Dictator, who is part of the National Front, which is a white supremacist organization, and he wears a whole white hooded outfit. And that story comes back in the late 70s, last for a few issues. He's a great villain with even more politically relevant and uh, depicting a dark side of actual politics and actual American civil rights at the time. And then he ends up killing himself at the end of that story. So that all happens before we get to the what if, but doesn't really pertain to the alternate universe. So I didn't include them in the reading. So just a, uh, side note on that before we head into our alternate universe yes.

So let us go into our cryogenic freezing chambers, pull the lever. We're just going, uh, to wait a few years, not 20 years, but we'll wait a few years and open it up into exploring multiversity.

I am your guy. Through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if.

I feel nice and well rested? Which is very important when you're trying to take down the very structures of our democracy. You need a good night's sleep. Today we are, of course, going to be discussing what if, issue number 44. What if Captain America were not revived until today, from April 1984. Although the cover question is simply, what if Captain America were revived today?

I don't know why.

And that whole question is a little doesn't exactly get to the root of this story, but we can get more into that in a second.

So this issue is written by Peter B. Gillis, penciled by Salvosima, inked by Dave Simons, colored by George Russo, lettered by John Morelli, edited by Ralph Macchio. This is pretty late in the run of volume one. So volume one is going to end three issues from now of what if. Peter B. Gillis wrote a bunch of what ifs is a what um, if legend. And so this is one in that string. Some of the behind the scenes is actually he said that every single what if he wrote was a pitch by him. He was not given assignments. And one weekend he was at Ralph's house, and, uh, Ralph said, I bet you can't come up with a Captain America. And Peter said, with no small sense of self, but well deserved, he said, it took me about an hour, but I did it. And what's interesting the other behind the scenes, although this jumps into the future, but I want to add, because Peter B. Gillis has spoken about this, is that in the last five or six years in particular, the closing speech here has become an incredibly shared on social media artifact comic book panel. And Peter Bagiles said, I actually think I might be becoming a 4 July Facebook tradition because all these folks reprint that final speech. I wish it weren't as scary as it is today. And so we'll talk about why that's scary. We might even read part of or all of the speech. So I guess I don't know where to start. Do you have a suggestion where to start? Do you want to start with an overall impression?

Yeah. So all overall impression is, wow, this is an amazing, uh, issue, single issue of comics. And I think also this really the what if question is a little different than, like, I think it presents an alternate reality, which what if does really well, does it exactly answer the what if question as posed? I think that's a little secondary. But in terms of presenting an imaginary story, in a way and telling this alternate reality, I mean, I think this is what the what if series was all about to tell.

Well, that's what's fun about it. Because what makes it, I think, so complex and it's a really complex issue, is that there's a point of divergence, a single point of divergence. So in this case, Namor bypasses Steve.

Or is false.

But then there's the second point of divergence, which is also a twist on what we see in Captain America 155, which in this story, it's a janitor, though they don't clarify in Captain America 155, who it is that bought Bill Burnside back but in this case, someone again brought Bill Burnside back. They just did it in the absence of Steve. So you have that twist, then that twist, and then you get to the actual question, which is, what if he's revived today? And so then he's revived mhm in that alternate reality. I think that's really cool how multilayered it is, because obviously, they could have just done what if he was revived today and pretended that all of the Marvel Universe prior to when this was published in 1983 happened, but then we just revive him. But that story potential is a little flatter. This is great because you get a few twists with a what if question. I mean, I think it's really well constructed in terms of being an alternate universe and a what if, which I love about it. I think it's hard to not just jump to the relevance of this issue. Do you want to do that, or do you want to talk more about it as a comic first?

No, let's talk about the relevance because it's all there on every page. And I also think one of the things that makes this so successful is that it doesn't give us all the answers throughout, which I think sometimes in Achilles heel of some of the what ifs that we've discussed before on the show, they're trying to cram a lot into a very little. And here there's one point where evil Captain America is shot, and we never know who shot him. Was it actually someone who was trying to kill him? Was it part of this greater conspiracy? Was it set up? Was it, uh, a set up? Exactly. Was it a setup? Was it actually someone trying to kill him? It doesn't go into that. The person, the janitor, it purposely never tells you that character's name, never even shows you shadow.

Yes. I think for sure that was a set up.

Yeah. It almost made me think, is this, like, Nixon silent majority? Is that what they were trying to say? Or is this someone, like, who was actually trying to take steps to do this? It doesn't say, hey, we're going to give you all these. It's just going to put those out there. It lets those questions linger in your mind and then instead poses these other questions. It poses more questions than it tries to answer, which I think is actually what great art usually does.

Yeah, I agree. I was curious if that was almost set up to tell more stories in this world. We'll get to whether or not they do. But I think you're right. It could just be really good storytelling. Really good, dense, nuanced storytelling. So jumping to some of the pieces that are just really wild that 40 years on, this can be so significant. So you have the way that Bill Burnside so Captain America Four is talking about he's nostalgic for an old America that used to be unified in fighting against enemies. And then he continues in the same way we see in the Captain America series to talk about how students and what he calls minority groups are really burning down America and that they're the enemies that they're distracting from the enemies of freedom. And so um, all of those are arguments that we hear constantly today. And then he starts the way they consolidate power. I mean, it almost feels like a playbook for some of the modern fascism because um, first of all, they want to set America right again. I think it's pretty wild that in 1984, Peter B. Gillis has written Trump's slogan.

Yeah. And they use the phrase America first.

America first, which we know is a big white supremacist, white nationalist thing. So they're constantly using that. But the way that uh, Bill Burnside is still able to articulate what appears to be a coherent argument that you can hear some people getting behind and he goes on and he talks about how he's not a red baiter, like he's not really trying to position other people as communists, but he's just looking for people to unify. And then what of course it turns out is happening is they're just trying to grab at power whatever it takes to grab at power, which is very, very familiar. And so then after he's shot, he uses that as an opportunity to have greater power be given through martial law. And he's like, I wish this wasn't what we had to do, but we have to do it to take care of this country. And so it's just amazing. And he is able to rally people and use symbols with people and totally destroy society.

Right.

He just puts behind a wall. Also funny point, the parts of society that don't match to what he's doing.

Yeah, that reminded me of very much of DMZ to where you're segmenting part of the and just kind of forgetting about New York or escape from New York, totally. All those kinds of things. But the revolution is actually happening behind those walls and the rest of the world is not fully aware of it.

Yeah. And so all of that I mean it's amazing too, because when he's talking to that secret cabal of people who all represent like the Serpent Society and.

All these other characters yeah, it's like.

The Patriotic Lodge, the Secret Empire, the Sons of the Serpent, the National Force. It's all these groups that we've known from comics or actually are sort of created here and then go live on in the six one six canon. So they're all unified just because they all stand to benefit from consolidating power. And then of course, I'm going to go to the speech at the end is what people share. And I find it incredibly moving. So I guess I should share it.

Sure.

People haven't read the issue. So Steve Rogers Cap says, listen to me, all of you. Out there. You were told by this man, your hero, that America is the greatest country in the world. He told you that Americans were the greatest people, that America could be refined like silver, could have the impurities hammered out of it and shine more brightly. He went on about how precious America was, how you needed to make sure it remained great. And he told you anything was justified to preserve that great treasure, that pearl of great price that is America. Well, I say America is nothing, uh, without its ideals, its commitment to the freedom of all men. America is a piece of trash. A nation is nothing. A flag is a piece of cloth. I fought Adolf Hitler not because America was great, but because it was fragile. I knew that liberty could as easily be snuffed out here in Nazi Germany. As people, we were no different from them. When I returned, I saw that you nearly did turn America into nothing. And the only reason you're not less than nothing is that it's still possible for you to bring freedom back to America. And that speech is what inspires everyone to realize that Steve is the real cap that the Bill Burnside imposter is not. And then he refuses to be their leader because he thinks that they need to understand that they all have the power, and that's what inspires it. That I cannot believe how relevant, even in the last two weeks, that speeches.

Yeah, I think it actually happens not in this issue, but in the previous ones we discussed. Although it might pop up here as well. Uh, when Burnside is called a fascist, he totally rejects that, but yet he is he's talking about his hatred for Hitler, and yet he's doing these things at the same time.

Yes, that is in the six one six issues we read, he calls him Hitler, and he's like, No, I'm not.

And that's exactly a sentiment, I think, that you see now here and in Russia too, in so many places, that argument. Yeah, I think it's an amazing speech. It's an amazing moment. A, uh, couple of things that I was thinking that were different from what we see now is, I think, the Burnside character, while he is the antagonist, of course, and ultimately the statistics, peter Gillis does paint him a, uh, little bit more naive, I think maybe because he's mentally unstable, he is being controlled by this other cabal. And I think that's a big difference that we're seeing today, is, like, the face of the movements. Are the people in charge not necessarily being controlled by this shadowy group. What do you think about that?

Uh, even and Steve says at one point, no, it's actually Burnside talking about freedom, and then people sell us out to our enemies. So you even get a sense of, like, the way other countries are starting to manipulate America or that's his fear here, I guess. Burnside's fear, which, of course, is a possible reality we're living in.

Yeah, he definitely does seem like I think one of the things that Peter Gillis does so well is that he does make this character despicable and yet understandable at the same time. And I think it's the same thing that Steve Engelhart does in some of the other ones. But I think actually, Gillis, uh, takes it a step further and really kind of showing that, hey, this is like not even a wolf in sheep's clothing, because I think he really believes that he is the sheep bringing the lamb that's bringing this in often.

Yeah, I think that makes him a lot more interesting.

Yeah, no, totally. The mustache twirling villains is like the group of the people that are actually controlling him. And he really is trying to do this because he thinks he's doing the right thing, even though he certainly is not.

What's cool, though, is that there's even no redemption for him in the end. Like, even in the final battle, you have Steve, who I'm assuming is the protagonist we're all supposed to identify with his views, who says to him, you're everything I was meant to fight, monster. Your hatred of others, your denial of others humanity. You're a Nazi smear on the American flag. So even though he is motivated by beliefs and values, there's no redeeming him. He made the wrong choices in that. And, um, I think that's a really powerful message in terms of sometimes, uh, people looking to find compromise or to, quote, unquote, reach across the aisle. It's like, well, at a certain point, your hatred of others and your denial of other humanity makes you a Nazi smear on the American flag.

Yeah, totally. And I think one thing, too, that resonated with this issue and the previous ones, even though this is in a different Earth, I feel like they are so much of one story. I think it's key also having the characters that are not the blonde white guy in the story. Sharon and Sam play crucial roles in the other issue, 155 and 156. Uh, I don't think it would be the same story if you did not have a black man and a woman there.

And there's lots of comments about race and gender.

And here, too, uh, while you get characters that are identifiably Jewish, um, and like the sailor that is on the ship, uh, and you get Wilson again, and the reverend as well, that, uh, is the original protest. So there are these characters it isn't just, okay, we're going to tell the story of the one white savior in Steve Rogers. No. There is this kind of world, and you even have Jay Jonah Jameson, who is typically this kind of antagonist, but is still fighting for the freedom of the press and is actually helping them as well.

Well, you even have and this is one of the examples of another Bronze age way that it's dark and paints a real picture of reality. Because you even have Burnside, the corrupt captain America talking about trying to rest control from the Jewish bankers and the black articles. So these, uh, characters aren't just placed in like it's a key part of the story. Who's here and who's being represented and who's fighting for freedom? It's so cool that this was done, that it was published, and that it's become significant, like you said. It is one of those issues that I think has influenced people's understanding of this era. I think people probably think this is almost a canonical story in a lot of ways. It could be other than there's a whole lot of history that it wouldn't jive with a six, one six, but it almost could be canonical. So we actually have never revisited this Earth ever before. Not in glimpse, not in anything. This Earth has never been revisited. So before we move on to the future issues that we looked at, would you want to go back to this Earth for more story?

Yeah, I think I would. But I wouldn't want to go after this issue ends. Right. Because we're hoping that things change for the better. Maybe not. It could have that almost Star Wars kind of thing where the evil empire is still lurking on the perimeter. But I think there's more stories to be told within the world that's here. And we even jump in time throughout this issue as well. Uh, so exploring Peter Parker as this mercenary revolutionary in Harlow, that's true.

When they call the Second American Revolutionary War, you can explore that whole group.

We know Shield was dismantled, what happened there as well. And Nick Fury is a character here exploring all these other characters and see what was the lead up to this.

You want to see almost like the big event titles where then they have the spin off miniseries that tell you facets, like you'd like to see the spin off miniseries that are totally facets of this story. See, I think I'm game for that, but I'm okay with a sequel. Because at this point in the world, I need someone to imagine a way out of where we are right now. And I'd like to see that. I'd like someone, Peter B. Gillis or someone else, to imagine how we get out of where we are right now. Because this just gets you right to the turning point. It doesn't actually tell you how the rest of America responds and what happens and what the path forward looks like. It just ends. It literally ends with people singing America the Beautiful. Like it just ends at the turning point. So I would like to know then what happens? I need that utopian path painted for me in art and hopefully then translate it into real life.

Yeah, because there's this moment in that final moment of them singing America the Beautiful where it could almost feel like that Steve could become the king. Right. They're just going to appoint Steve the new ruler. And it's almost that like George Washington kind of thing where it took that power to step down and pass it along. So that feels like it is like the next challenge in this story. What happens next?

Well, but he says you follow someone in my outfit once and exactly evil. So I'm not going to let you do that. So what does that look like and how does he do that? And can Peter B. Gillis help direct our current government on that path? That's what I would like to know.

Yeah. Well, let's ponder those possibilities in our next segment, which is called Pondering Possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted? So, Guitar, we're going to jump into the 2020 ten s now. Uh, and how did you come up with this list of possibilities?

So with such a complex issue, I really spent a lot of time on preparing for this episode. So, as I said, the Bill Burn side as the Great Dictator actually predates the what if. And we use our rule that we will only read issues that follow the alternate universe, so we can look at any inspiration that might have come from that. So then I tracked out Bill Burnside, basically. So we are reading his return into the Six One Six to see if it feels like it's at all influenced by this what if. I did consider one big thing I considered, I have to say, is Secret Empire. Secret Empire is, of course, somewhat controversial, pretty well received, but very complex and convoluted. I reread pretty much half of Secret Empire to try to see if there was an element of that because you have the cap as Hydra, the evil cap take over the US. And then it turns out that that's not truly cap and you have the fighting caps. I was really looking to see if there was something in that some issue even in the Prelude, in the spin off in the main title that hit at some of the themes of what if? And I didn't see it. So I stuck with Bill Byrneside and gave us what we're about to dive into.

So, mhm, first up, we have Captain America, issue number mhm 38 from July 2008. And that is The Man Who Bought America, part two.

Uh, and I think we're going to talk about these two together.

Okay. And then that other one is Captain America issue 602. That is from March 2010. And that is Two Americas part one. So we got a part two and a part one, but not the other parts of those.

I'll explain why in just a moment. So, issue 38 from 2008 is written by Ed Brew Baker, pencils by Steve Epting, inked by Mike Perkins and Steve Epstein, colored by Frank Darmada, lettered by Joe Carr, magna edited by Tom Bravorte. And issue 602. They return, of course, to the legacy numbering there in 2010 is still being written by Ed Brew Baker, penciled by Luke Ross, inked by Butch Geissen, luke Ross, colored by Dean White, lettered by Joe Carr, magna edited by Tom Bravorte. And the reason I think we're linking them, even though they're a few years apart, is that, um, these are two pieces of the two main stories, actually, the two only stories that bring Bill Burnside back. So both of them are during Brewbaker's Run, which, of course, is the death and eventual return of Captain America. So, uh, in the first issue, we're in an arc that's bringing Bill Byrneside back and Bucky is being cap is dead. And in the second issue, Steve has.

Received her life now, but he's staying.

Away with Sharon Bucky still being capped. And we have Bill Burnside showing up yet again. And these follow the continuity again follows the Great Dictator story that we did not read from the late 70s, where Bill Burnside becomes a Great Dictator brainwashed by Faustus, kills himself. And that's actually recapped in issue 38, a little bit at the beginning by Sharon, who thinks it's Steve and realizes it's not. It's Bill Burnside, Captain America Four. So what do you think of these? And then we can talk about some connections. Yeah, I've never read any Brewbaker Run, I'm assuming.

No, I have not. So this is definitely new to me. And I like how I think in the first issue, the Man Who Bought America Part Two, that how he introduces Burnside back. And there's almost this kind of Frankenstein monster quality because he doesn't quite know where he is. And he's deformed from these Burns as well. And he encounters Sharon, who's going to kill him, but then she's incapacitated. And I think it continued kind of what Gillis does, where you take this reprehensible character, but also try to find ways to make him not likable, but there's a little bit of understanding to who he is. And in this case, a little more compassion in some ways.

Well, and in this he's flat out because in Six One six, he's brainwashed. In this, he's being brainwashed again. So he is a little bit being positioned as the victim in this storyline because they're using him to get this third wing party elected, which is very similar to the What If. In fact, it's this fake party they create to essentially take over America for their own profit. And that's being done through his brainwashing and through the manipulation. In another issue, they do an attempted stage, an attempted assassination on the person who's running for president, actually, and have Captain America save him. So it all is very similar to the what if in a political way.

Yeah, I think one of the biggest things that is not realistic for its times or has proven not to be true, I should say, is they don't really turns out they didn't need a third party to do it. You can do it within a two party system.

You can do it from within.

But you often see that in, I think, like Cronenberg, David Croneberg, the dead zone as well. There's often a character who represents, like, this third party that is like the shining light.

What if ultimately the Senator Chadwick, that they end up getting elected in the what if he at one point, Fernside says he's not Democrat or Republican, he's a third party. So it's the same idea. So, yes, I think since 2008, we've learned that it doesn't require a third party to completely destroy, corrupt, and take over the American government.

Yes. In fact, in this issue, in the presidential can or the senator, uh, can, uh, or I guess whoever is says the right wing and the left wing have gotten us to this stalemate. It's time for a new wing, a third wing to unite us all. So you do get that sense of, Oh, there's something else. But yeah, that's the one unrealistic part of these stories.

And so at the end of this, Burnside just sort of vanishes at the end of that sort storyline, and then a year and a half later comes back. And that's the next issue where we have him flashing back to his childhood. We get his name for the first time ever. And then it turns out that he's actually created basically a militia of working with people.

Yes. On the title splash page, he says, and then we go get our country back now. So you totally get that right away, the sense of getting our country back as it is.

And it's even called Two Americas.

Yes, totally.

Twelve years ago.

Yes. And even during this protest, there's a lot that you even heard at the time, even or still here, where someone says, no government in my Medicare. In one of the protest signs, like this contradiction or one of the issues.

Too, they're talking about, it might be one of the issues of this storyline that we didn't read, but I skimmed them all. They talk about gas prices being a stressor for people and why they were willing to vote for a third party. In this issue, of course, we have Sam pretend to be a tax collector, and because he's both black and a tax collector, this town is going to really turn on him. And that's how Bucky is going to then get in with the militia group that Burnside is running.

This was my first time reading this. I definitely, uh, saw where some of the Falcon and Winter Soldier series kind of pulled from, because you get that kind of Sam Bucky dynamic here. And already in these issues, sam really being more the actual leader, even though Bucky is even though he's in the Captain America uniform at this point, I get Sam is really being the one who is the true leader and that kind of dynamic. It's not as goes as far as I think the Disney Plus series did, but you certainly see it here as well.

Yeah. So reading just these two issues of these stories, do you think that the alternate universe from the What If could have inspired them?

Yes, totally. I think definitely the 2008, but also knowing that these are both written by Ed Brewbaker, it definitely seems that he is taking something from that Peter Gillis run and maybe that we know. I don't know if it had, uh, become a meme at this point, but knowing that but knowing that it was eventually more in the public consciousness than most of the what ifs, almost any other what if, I wouldn't be surprised if Brubaker was very aware of it.

Then yeah, I think it's also I agree. I do think that the What If was an inspiration, whether it was explicit or just because he had absorbed it at some point, or it was in the ether already in 2010, though I think it was a little later. But it's also hard to distinguish two really good storytellers who have a really well developed who like writing about politics and have a really well developed sense of how they're going to do that and how they're going to use Captain America to tell those stories. So I think there could be similarities that just have to do with that kind of storytelling. And it's interesting in the eight and Ten, because you do see a little bit more of that fictionalization to try to stay out of current politics. They still, again, name Democrats and Republicans. But this creation of this whole fake third party and stuff keeps them a little more sanitized, I'd say. But Brewbaker still goes there for sure, and has a perspective on division and people exploiting economic depression to try to create power for themselves and what that means.

Yes, I definitely think, as you said, I think one of the interesting things about the Captain America character and you know Superman better than I do, so this does feel like it's also true of Superman, is exploring what is that thin line between being the hero and being the villain. Because you, um, had taken characters like Batman or even someone like the X Men, where there's a lot more ambiguity in their actions. They have that darkness here. The Superman and Captain America are so light, they're so bright, it's even reflected in their costumes. There's an inherent story in exploring a Burnside character like this. Where does he go, and what does that mean, to wear that suit?

Yeah, well, I think we talked about it, maybe with JLA created equal, I don't know. But there are so many stories of corrupt Superman being told. And I think that's a reason why what I think is interesting about Captain America is, of course, as soon as you're going to tell that story, you have to bring in nationalism and politics because it is built into the character. The character is nothing. Now, people have made Superman very political and some of those stories have been great and some less so. But I think with Captain America, you can't avoid it. I'm curious where that will go in our world secret empire, of course, getting so much attention. There were some pretty horrific stuff that Nick Spencer dealt with because of that, the writer Nick Spencer. Just death threats and really wild stuff because of trying to tell this story and probing what it means. So I suspect we'll have a lot of conservatism in terms of that kind of storytelling. Falcon and Winter Soldier scratches the surface ever so gently in terms of what race does when it intersects with Captain America. But I don't know that we'll get a story that leans in quite as much as Gillis.

What if ever again, no, I have a hard time thinking that will lean in that much in the movies, especially maybe more in the comics, which you know better than I do. But I could certainly see aspects of the Burnside character being combined with the usage character and taking some of the which was started to already be explored in, uh, the series, where the US. Agent might also be losing his grip on reality as well. So I could certainly see them putting some more of the fascistic elements of the Burnside character into that other character, uh, but keeping him kind of as US. Agent. Since, of course, like the whole backstory with Burnside being cosmetically looking exactly the same. Steve Rogers, Chris Evans, it's not a story that they can really tell in the movies.

Maybe Chris Evans would come back for that.

I do think that would be like an amazing acting opportunity for Chris Evans to come back and play a dual character or just play the evil version of this character. I think if there's one thing that could take them back into the MCU, I think that acting challenge of being the bad guy, finally, which you kind of got to do in Knives Out, too. I think it's the more fun role to play, frankly.

I think the US. Agent point you made, though, is true somewhat, but I think it's going to stay so apolitical, which is what we've seen in these issues, is that none of them do. So I think we will deal with US. Agent and questions of aggression, certainly maybe even questions of masculinity. I could see them exploring a little bit, but I don't know that they're going to lay on top of him a racist, fascistic, antisocial justice, anti equality lens. I don't know that we'll see that, but that would be nice.

Yeah. Do you think some of these themes, though, have actually maybe played out in other comics, like Crocodile and X Men? I mean, that's something like that seems like it's able to, uh, actually deal with some of, uh, these darker politics questions.

Yeah. But those would be completely through metaphor or allegory or whatever the right word is, because none of that is taking place in any real place. So even though it even involves geopolitics and they go to the World Economic Forum and the G Eight in an early issue, but it's still all through fictional probing of those questions. I think what's so powerful about this what if is that it's using language, it's using characters, it's using political perspectives, and it's using political maneuvers that are real. Yeah, it's a very compelling mhm story, and I'm sure they were real in 1984, right? It's just sad that 40 years later, they ring true yet again. So that's all I've got to say about that joyful moment in celebrating our country.

Yeah. Well, I think both of us have been unanimous. If you're listening to this on the force, you can read these issues on the Marvel Unlimited app. I think it's definitely a good read regardless of the time of year. But if you're reading it anytime around the around some of the more recent current events in the US. And certainly around the globe, I think it's a very timely read and should be read.

Yes. And so I have been your cynical watcher guido.

And I have been your commee fruit Rob. That's a wrap. Deer Watchers, thank you so much for listening.

The reading list is in the show notes. You can follow us. Engage with us on Twitter at deer watchers.

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