Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Rob: Welcome to Dear Watchers, a comic book Omniverse podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.
Guido: We are traveling through the storylines before and after that inspired or took inspiration from this week's amazing alternate universe. And your watchers on this journey are me.
Rob: Guido and me Robbo, which is an amalgam of Guido and Rob.
Guido: You know, I actually even knew you were going to do that, and I forgot already. Grob, I think we decided. Is that right?
Rob: Yes.
Guido: Okay.
Rob: It does really sound like a Taika Watiti rock character or.
Guido: No, but no, I think like a giant Centipede type thing.
Rob: I'm uh thinking more yes.
Guido: All right. I guess because I'm thinking grub. So I'm Grub and you're Robbo.
Rob: Yes. So, Grob, what's new?
Guido: Well, we have a bonus episode that just released a few days before this one came out. So if you are interested in 15 things about Doctor Strange and the multiverse of Madness, we are joined by dear friend Elliot comic art on that episode. So please give it a listen. It's again out the weekend the movie came out and just a few days before this episode went live. Available wherever you're listening to this.
Rob: My major prediction did not come true. But that's not to say it's not going to come true in a future movie. You'll have to listen to find out what it was.
Guido: I thought it came true, but people have to listen and judge them because I know more blank. Oh, that wasn't your major prediction. Anyway, go listen to the episode and you'll hear all of this on there. We also have a huge interview coming up in a few weeks. We're super excited. It might end up being an exercise episode or maybe even split into two. We're figuring that out now, but we're really excited about this creator interview on the horizon. So please help us grow. If you enjoy listening to us, please leave a review. If you've listened on multiple platforms, maybe you've only left a review on one and you can go review on the other. And we are active on Twitter, so you can follow us, share us, send us messages, get involved, but also word of mouth that helps. But please, anything you can do to help us grow.
Rob: Yeah. If you do a review and send us an image, we'll send you some stickers. We've got some amazing stickers with custom art, and you can see all that on our Twitter account. So, yes, please support us. And if you are joining us for the first time, welcome. And after a quick summary of our alternate Earth, we have origins of the story, discovering what may have inspired this other reality, exploring multiversey, diving deeper into the alternate universe and pondering possibilities, examining the impact of this visit to the multiverse and what's followed or our hopes for the future. And with that, Dear Watchers, welcome to episode 44 and let's check out what's happening in the multiverse with today's alternate universe. And today we are pondering the question from the Amalgam universe. What if Charles Xavier became Doctor Strange with Dr. Fate helmets?
Guido: So this is Earth 9602, which is one branding of the Amalgam universe. We first visited the Amalgam universe in episode 36. So you can go back and listen to us, joined by Ethan of make my an Amalgam to talk about your Spider boy. And we give a little bit of the background of Amalgam and the DC versus Marvel series there. Today we're going to launch into this Earth 9602, and the question we're posing. But it's a little bit of a strange uh issue because it is the only Amalgam issue. The title that's an Amalgam title, not the DC versus Marvel miniseries, that actually references what's happening in the Amalgam universe explicitly and actually moves that plot forward in some ways. So it opens on our character of Access, the main protagonist of all three Marvel DC series of this era, Axel Asher, who has the power to step through teleport through universes, including the Marvel and the DC Universe. So it opens on him running in a sewer. He's running from Abominate, which is Abomination. And you pointed out parasites. Yes. And so throughout this, we discover that Doctor Strange Fate is monitoring Access and discovers that he might have the power. He realizes Access has the power to destroy the universe, and he needs to try to stop that. So he summons his servant, Mix, who is Mr. Mix of Plex and Wong, and um orders him to gather some of his agents, Skulk, Who's, Solomon, Grundy, Hulk, Jade, Nova, who's I guess Kyle, Rayner and Nova, but also uh Jade, but also a little bit of fire from the DC universe. Not totally clear. And the White Witch, which is Zitana Scarlett witch. So he orders them to go after Access. Turns out that the White Witch is the only one who can actually get Access. But all of this was a test for Strange Fate to see Accesses vulnerabilities. Long story short, Access is back at Arkham Tower, where Strange Fate is and confronts Access to try to get him to give him the keys so that Access can't unzip the universes, which is what he's trying to do to restore the regular universe. Get rid of the Amalgam universe. Strangely, doesn't know that Access has hidden these keys away in Captain America and Batman. That does not play out in this issue. And Access basically escapes at this point. So Strange Fate realizes that he has failed to be the protector of this universe. He has failed to do his job keeping it safe. And we find out that it's actually Charles Xavier. So he takes his helmet off and he proclaims that it's over and this story ends there. And, of course, the universes do end up getting unzipped in another issue. So we'll talk a lot more about all of that, including the reveal of Xavier but there are a bunch of other characters.
Rob: Like the strawberry vanilla chocolate ice cream Neapolitan.
Guido: Uh yeah, Doctor Strange. We can call them the Neapolitan. Yeah. And there are some characters that are three. You were asking earlier if there are other main characters that are three, and that's a good question for Ethan at makeline Amalgam, because I can't think of one, but sometimes they will bring in just one person's powers as a third element in the same way that this Doctor Strange fate isn't. I'd say evenly, the three characters and we'll talk about that when we get to the issue. But some of the other characters we meet real quick before we begin our travel. We have, of course, the ones that I've mentioned, but they also refer to NABU, the Ancient ones. So this is NABU, who grants Doctor Fate's powers mixed with the Ancient one, who grants Doctor Strange's powers mefusitanus, which is just a fun word to say. And it's Mephisto mixed with Lord Satanis and Baron Watan, which is Baron Mordo mixed with Wotan, a character I do not know even who it is, but is a Doctor Fate character, I'm assuming. So a fun world. Earth nine, six um hundred and two as we discover. What if Charles Xavier became Doctor Strange with Dr. Faith helmet?
Rob: And mhm the other week we were debating Dormamu or Dormamu, but I'm guessing it's not methis, but I don't think it's that.
Guido: No, I uh don't think so.
Rob: We'll never know, though, because the characters never come. We will never see it in a movie, right? So we don't know.
Guido: Well, who knows?
Rob: That's true that we're going to run out of characters eventually, but speaking of characters, we got those three characters you mentioned, Charles, Doctor Strange and Dr. Fate. And we've talked about Charles, Professor X and Doctor Strange before. We haven't talked about Dr. Fate guitar. What is your background with those characters?
Guido: Well, as mentioned on previous episodes where we've covered them, Xavier, I know almost everything there is to know about as a huge Xmen fan for many decades, so I'm very familiar with him. Stephen Strange, I'm less familiar with as a Marvel fan, I obviously knew a lot about him. I read every Marvel event for decades, so he was always involved. But I never read any of his solo titles until the last ten to 15 years of publication history. And actually now with my real fondness for multiverse of madness, go listen to the episode. I'm reading the classic omnibus of his early appearances. So I'm getting more and more into Stephen Strange and know a good amount, but not a ton. Doctor Fate I know very little about. I don't think he's had too many of solo titles, but I know you know more, and my familiarity with him comes from I love Joshua Lee Dark and that story, though. His helmet actually I think plays a bigger role than he does. And then the more recent title he's in it, but I don't actually even know which Doctor Fade it is. Prior to that, I don't know much about him. Again, in Infinite Crisis, he plays a minor role. There's a search for his helmet again, I guess so. I've always known, obviously, his look, which is very cool, and that's about it. I don't know much else about his background. I'm excited for Pierce Brosnan in Black. Adam, what about you? What was your background?
Rob: So Doctor Strange? Not too much, because he was never on any of the 90s cartoons. I never read any of his titles. He wasn't really in the Big Root books that I read growing up. So not too much until the MCU. Charles, of course, knew from reading X Men, new from the 90s TV series, new from the movies. And Dr. Fate, a strange character that I know probably more than you do because I am a big Justice Society of America fan. I read some of the Golden Age stuff. I read some of the Silver Age All Star comics. And then I love the Jeff John's Run. And it's a little confusing because to say that, you know, Dr. Fate is a little weird because there's lots of different people who have been Doctor Fate. Kent Nelson is the original. Then it's a husband and wife duo. Then it's Hector Hall, who is the Hawk Man's son, and he's the Doctor Fate in the Jeff John's JSA run. Then it becomes someone else. So there's lots of different people. There's even a really bad ass one where he's got like a street tear and a tattoo of the ONC when DC was trying to be all tough. So I read a little bit and pieces of all of them, but I didn't know him super in depth. So it was great to explore his origin, which we're going to talk about. Right.
Guido: And he wasn't on Star Girl, right?
Rob: No, I don't think he was even killed in the opening sequence on the first series. Uh i could be wrong, but I don't think so.
Guido: And we haven't watched the second season yet. Yeah.
Rob: And he's so super powerful like the Green Lantern that it's hard to include him and things like that because the two of them can just pretty much do everything. Then you've got Wildcat, who's just a boxer. So, yeah, they have to balance that out a little bit. But yeah, let's summon the spirit of NABU and explore some origins of the story. Right now on this very show, you're going to get the answer to all your questions. Our Amazing Story begins a few years ago. So let's talk about some not just Fun Comics, but some more Fun Comics. In fact, more Fun Comics number 67 from May 1941. And that is the origin of Dr. Fate.
Guido: What a generic name. This is written by Gardner Fox pencils and lettered by Howard Sherman. We read this Morphon Comics number 67 because a few issues earlier in 61, Doctor Fate debuts as America's most unusual adventure character. But similar to all of the characters we're talking about today. They debut him in a story and then don't tell his origin until a few issues later. So we read this because it tells his origin. And for me, this was one of the first golden age DC that I've read. That isn't Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman, which I haven't even read a ton of Batman. I've read more Superman and Wonder Woman. So it's fun to see. I mean, it's from a huge anthology book where there are lots of characters. The main story is actually about the specter, the cover story, but it was fun to see. You haven't read too much Golden Age DC either?
Rob: No, not at all. And I think when I read this and other things I have read, I think you just have to embrace the weirdness of it because here NABU is not a God. He's not a powerful being. Like Shazam, he's kind of an alien. He basically says he is.
Guido: But not just an alien because he's also just like a human statue standing in a sarcophagus that gets resurrected by white smoke that he convinces Kent to release Smoke.
Rob: And kills him. So there's like a lot happening.
Guido: There is. And then yeah, there's other weird stuff we'll get to. But my first impression is I love the art a lot. I've started over the last I'd say really even the last year to become more into Golden Age comics. And this art is really great. Classic Golden Age. The lettering also I really love it's. Really interesting looking and I don't think it's specific to this book. I think it's just the person's style. But you had mentioned it looks like there's lots of hyphens, but I think it's how he writes the e. The middle branch of the e is really extended and so it just creates a different feeling. There's a part of me that thinks it's almost hieroglyphic like an Echo since the stories in Egypt. But I don't think that's the case. I think it's just Howard Sherman's style, but I really like it and the whole thing gives this book a great feel to me. What was your overall impression?
Rob: My overall impression is that it feels like it's also pulling a lot from a character like The Shadow and other characters there where he has this mythical backstory. A lot of so many characters, I guess from that pulp era. We're pulling from these mythical stories where they're suddenly imbued with these powers. And then half of this issue is his origin and then the second half is just a normal kind of Doctor Fate story where he is curing this guy of these demons. And I was actually thinking it's almost the exact story that the Doctor Strange first issue is as well, which we're not covering on this podcast, but we have covered previously on episode 40. But Doctor uh Strange is helping this person relieve these bad dreams. And that's exactly what Dr. Fate is doing here.
Guido: And if memory serves, some of the many accusations of copying back and forth from Marvel to DC. One of them, I think, is that Doctor Strange is a copy of Dr. Fate, which is possibly true.
Rob: Yes.
Guido: What's cool, though, about this, and it actually inspires me to want to read more. Golden Age Dr. Fate is the fact that the guy is an alcoholic. So it's cool that even, like, Kent is like, oh, these shadows chasing you. Don't you mean just your alcoholic visions? And he even refers to pink elephants and such, which is weird because that's in Dumbo. I don't know if Dumbo had come out at this point and that's what he's referencing or if that was in the culture that when you are a drunk, you see pink elephants. I have no idea.
Rob: I heard that before, too.
Guido: Yeah, it's cool. It was just cool that it felt almost like a social commentary issue, even though it was not at all because it's a real shadows. But it was just neat that it was so grounded in the real world, which is such a Marvel thing. I think I'm not used to DC being grounded in the real world, and this one is. So it was interesting.
Rob: The other thing that almost mhm feels like a social issue, which also probably isn't, is that Kent's female friend, whose name I'm forgetting, isn't it?
Guido: Like I'm just trying to look for it now.
Rob: Uh it's a little bizarre, but she's a big part of the story and she's also willing to kind of uh jump into the deep end of the action, which I think you see with Margot Lane from The Shadow. I don't know if you saw that with Lois at this point, but I was kind of surprised how into the action she was being this woman in this beautiful dress.
Guido: I was surprised, too. Well, that's the funny thing, right? She serves no purpose and she's there in her fancy cocktail dress in like the flames of some health dimension with skulls everywhere. But it was interesting to me that they kept her on panel even then they had to go. I don't know why that is so. Yeah, it was fun to see this.
Rob: And then she does become Dr. Fate at some point. And then during the Jeff John's JSA. Run, her and Ken Nelson are dead, but they're both instructing Hector Hall, who's now Doctor Fate. So she continues to be a key role in the Doctor Fate mythos.
Guido: And before we wrap up to one last thing I want to say is his design. I like his design a lot. I think it's just the color. Honestly. There's not much. I mean, he's just wearing shorts over a leotard. Although what's cool, I guess, about the top of his costume is it has a lapel, so it almost looks like Kent's blue suit, but it's then in his outfit. But the colors, the blue, the yellow, the contrast of them, the yellow Cape, the yellow helmet. I really like his design a lot.
Rob: I don't know if it at all has any Egyptian influence on it, which this character here.
Guido: It doesn't appear to. I know. Later he ends up with ank's on his costume, but here it doesn't yet appear that way. They do have now NABU, who I guess is not actually Egyptian but is in an Egyptian tomb. His like Pharaoh headdress and collar are then uh echoes of Doctor Faith costume. So they were going for some connection here.
Rob: Yeah. And there's also definitely some racism towards the whole Egyptian thing. Cool. Ken's father is Fenn and is also blond Aryan, but I love or don't love when Ken's father is like, there's no way these Egyptian people built these pyramids. How could they possibly have done this? It has to be alien. Actually, just one thing about the writer of this, which is Gardener Fox and Gardener Fox, I was looking up. He wrote 3000 comic stories, 1000 stories for DC and also Hawk Man has lots of similarities here, lots of Egyptian things and Resurrections with Hawk Man, who he also created. He also wrote in the Weird fiction and Sword in Sorcery prose as well. So you can see some of that filtering in here. And then the last fun fact I saw was after the first two issues of Batman by Bob Can and Bill Finger. He joined the team and he is credited with creating the utility belts and the battery.
Guido: Yeah. He's known as like, the legend of DC for sure. And mhm I haven't read, as I said, much Golden Age, so it was fun to get to see a character he was.
Rob: Let's talk about the origin of some Legends of Marvel At. That list of ideas, we've got Strange Tales number 115. That is the origin of Doctor Strange from December 1019 63. And we've previously covered this on episode 40 of the podcast.
Guido: So it's written by Stanley and Steve Ditko, who did the pencils inks. Stan Goldberg did the colors, Sam Rosen did the letters, and of course, Stan Lee edited it. This is similar. Dr. Strange debuted a few issues prior, but we read the origin because it's the first thing to tell his origin. I don't know if now is when we're going to talk about any of it, or if at all, but a fair warning that we did see multiverse of badness. We won't spoil anything in that movie, but if we reference it at all because it's fresh in our minds, we might talk about things that are in the official marketing for the movie. So just be warned if you didn't watch a trailer and don't want to know anything, but otherwise we won't.
Rob: We're not going to talk about Robert Downey Jr. And Chris Evans coming back into the MCU in the movie.
Guido: That is not even a funny joke. People are going to think you're telling the truth. So anyway, and I say that because it was fun. We've read this origin at least once now, maybe a few times even, and it was fun to read it. Now, having just watched another Doctor Strange movie, there's not really a connection I'm making at this moment, but it was just fun to have that in mind while rereading this origin, especially because Mordo actually who is in the new movie. So it was nice to get refreshed on Mordo in this origin.
Rob: And when you read all of the early Doctor Strange storylines, you can see just how significant a character of Mordo is. He really is such a huge character in the Doctor Strange Mithos.
Guido: Yeah. I think what I like the best about this on this reading, and I might have liked this the first time, too, is the fact that Strange is compelled to learn. Sorcery because he can't identify, he can't say out loud that Mordo has put the spell on him. I think it's neat and it's perhaps a little different from Dr. Fate if we're going to compare them a bit. He's not driven by a moral heroism right from the beginning, which of course is what we've talked a number of times on this podcast about that Marvel is known for having done, which is create more complex characters in conflict. But I just really like that even as a plot device here this fact that if he could just tell the Ancient one, hey, Mordo put a spell on me, he wouldn't have become the source or supreme because he wouldn't have wanted to learn anything. But he's driven to learn the magic to undo that spell, which of course, it turns out the Ancient One knew was in play at play anyway. So it's a very clever plot device. I like it a lot.
Rob: Yeah. And I think one through line that you see here in the comics that even runs through the MCU version of Doctor Strange is he always wants to do good. He's not a bad person, but that desire to do good can sometimes be buried deep inside of him.
Guido: Yes.
Rob: Eventually, when he first gets there, he really has no desire to learn. And it is, as you just said, only through learning about this conflict that then comes out and you know, you are still that surgeon who wants to save people's lives, but you're still doing it. Maybe there's an ulterior motive. It's not just that you are being a good person doesn't come naturally to this character.
Guido: Yeah. So fun to revisit.
Rob: Yes. And let us revisit another classic origin. And that is Xmen number twelve, the origin of Professor X from July 1965, which we previously covered on episode 35 of this podcast.
Guido: Written by Stanley, penciled by Jack Kirby and Alex Toss, inked by Vince Collette, lettered by Sam Rosen, edited by Stan. Again, we read it because it is the origin of Professor X, who debuted in, obviously Xmen number one. And they don't tell his origin until we get here. And they actually it's neat. They tell his origin to explain who Juggernaut is. So this is the debut of Juggernaut, and the only reason Xavier is going through his origin is to explain who Juggernaut is. That's a fun device. Unlike both Doctor Faye and Doctor Strange, there's like an Editor's box at the beginning saying, you love this character so much, and now we're going to tell you his origin. This I like that they create a story driven reason to tell his origin. It's fun.
Rob: Yes. And before we talk more about this issue, I'm going to set up a series of elaborate traps, wait for them all to go off, and then continue to tell my story and just do that on and off throughout the next bit of time.
Guido: Uh charles approach to Juggernaut coming toward the house, he's like, just waiting for these absurd traps to play out while he tells the story.
Rob: I think there's um even one point in the story where he was like, well, that last trap is going to keep him just long enough for me to finish my story. It's like, Charles, why don't you just tell it all in one?
Guido: The story is also not that important to understanding how to defeat them. I guess in the end, the story involves him, the Crimson Bands of Citarac, which is a fun Doctor Strange connection. But prior to that, it's really, you know, I got this step brother, and he was such a jerk to me. And then because of the radiation, at this point, it's not the X gene. Because of the radiation, I started to lose my hair. But I could do really well on tests. And I love that his telepathy meant that he could also run fast because he knew when the other runners were getting tired and so he could go faster.
Rob: Which is silly, but I do never picture Charles as being a quarterback on a football team, but I guess he was.
Guido: Yeah. I think it's a reminder that Charles is, like, serious prep student. Yuppie. Totally like upper class posh boy.
Rob: And even though this is called the origin of Professor X, it's really more the origin of Juggernaut because Professor X's origin is just, oh, he gets his powers. And as you said, we see some of these examples, but we don't get too much in depth. Of course, none of the backstory with Magneto and other things that became so core to that character are explored here.
Guido: Yeah. No, this is really the origin of his adolescence, which is not that interesting at this point. So I don't have much else to say about that.
Rob: No. Well, let us jump into one of accesses portals and combine these two universes we just talked about with some exploring Multiversity.
Guido: I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question what if?
Rob: And today we are going to be discussing Doctor Strange fate. Issue number one, the decrees of fate from April 1996. And our question decreed by us, the Watchers Council, is what if Charles uh Xavier became Doctor Strange using the helmet of Dr. Fates.
Guido: So uh this issue was written by Ron Mars, penciled by Jose Luis Garcia Lopez, inked by Kevin Nolan, colored by Matt Hollingsworth, lettered by Chris Illiopoulos, edited by Dave Thor's land uh so this is the creative team who did well. Ron Mars is the co writer of the core miniseries DC versus Marvel, Marvel versus DC. So it's Ron Mars and Peter David. So that's important to know. And again, that's why this title is the only one that is explicitly important. In fact, when they collected in the out of print trade paperback, of course, for the Marvel versus DC, DC versus Marvel, they collected the four issues of the miniseries and this issue and put them together because this one does help tell that story a little bit. The only other behind the scenes to add that's not about the Amalgam universe, but just about this issue was that apparently Ron Mars wanted a very shocking reveal in who Strange fate was and no one else. As we talked about in our last Amalgam episode, writers and Editors would claim characters and say, I'm going to do something with this one. And no one had claimed Xavier, no one had any plans for Xavier. So Ron Mars thought that would be a fun reveal. So that's the bit of background on this issue, I guess. Initial impressions, What'd you think?
Rob: Well, my initial impression less about the issue and more about my experience reading it, which is that, oh my gosh, as soon as I read it, I was just taken back to reading this as a kid. I had this issue. I read it over and over. I thought these characters were cooler than their actual characters that they're based on. So just reading it was just one of those experiences of, wow, I haven't read this in 20 years or more. And oh my gosh, I instantly can remember these panels like I saw them yesterday. So that definitely clouded my judgment of whether or not I liked it in general. But had you had that experience at all with this?
Guido: Yeah, I think being older and having absorbed it more than you, I think it was still very clear in my mind. Of course, everything Amalgam has a lot of nostalgia factor in it for me, but yeah, I didn't have that experience. I think what I was struck by was not remembering exactly how key this issue is to the larger story that I didn't really remember. But mhm other than that, of course, I remembered the key beats of it and especially who Strange Fate is and the characters trying to get him and what strange fate is trying to do. I remember all of that. I think it's so good. I think it just needs room to breathe. I'd say it's actually interesting to me that there were not more Amalgam titles that had pieces of a larger story. I don't know if that had to do with being rushed. I mean, it was a pretty tight event for being such a big event or if it had to do with the editorial sharing that was going on. But yeah, if anything, I just want more pieces of the story like this, where again, this is actually the only title that Access appears in. That's not the Core miniseries. So it's just interesting to me that this is essentially an extension of the Core miniseries. The art is great.
Rob: The art is great. There's a few panels. I mean, just some really cool ideas. Like I love with Access does break through the window to escape, just hoping that he can get his powers to transport him there. And then I think our three bounty Hunter type characters that we have, Skulk, Jade and White Witch, are just really fun, really cool drawn. I love how we see their powers being utilized as well. Just really neat.
Guido: And Garcia Lopez, he is so famous for, we met him at East Coast Comic Con a few years ago. He is super famous for the DC house style of the 80s. Uh so he's done the vast majority of, like, licensed characters that exist out there. What's interesting is this is a slightly different style. It's more of a 90 style with the hyper musculature and all of that. I think some of that has to do with the coloring. Also, it looks like it's probably digital coloring, so it transforms his work a little in a fine way. It updates. It makes it a very mid 90s looking book. But it's just cool that it's Garcia Lopez because he is another legend of DC Comics.
Rob: And this has that great, I think. I love mhm a lot of these narratives that have this kind of running man, wronged man kind of story, like The Fugitive or a lot of Hitchcock or something like that, where you have access just on the run, evading all of these people trying to get him, and even people like the abomination parasite Amalgam, who's not even trying um to get him uh as part of this story. But it's just another obstacle that he's facing. I think it's just fun when you're just throwing everything, including the kitchen sink, at one of these kind of characters trying to stop them.
Guido: Well, that lends itself really well to something like Amalgam, because then at every juncture you get to encounter a new Amalgam character. And so that's the fun part about the group going after him is seeing how each of them are going to go after him and what their plan is and what their powers are. So yeah, I think that kind of narrative fits well with the purpose of this book, too. So let's talk about the character a bit, since that's our focus. The character. It's interesting, having just seen Multiverse of Madness, how many similarities there are to the Doctor Strange character in the MCU and to the Doctor Strange that we're reading about. You mentioned it earlier, but it's present here in Doctor Strange fate also. That sort of, I guess it's almost an amoral. And uh it's something, I think, that's common with the powerful Mystics of the Marvel and DC universe is that they're being amoral much of the time now. Sometimes they'll make a moral choice, but their attempt to be amoral. So in this case, he sees himself as the protector of the universe and so his goal is to protect the universe, even if that means killing access or even if that means ultimately killing. What were the two universes in order to protect this one fused hybrid universe. His amorality makes him a villain, essentially, but he thinks he's doing it out of a moral code. And mhm so he's a complex hero villain.
Rob: I was surprised reading this, just how much of for our title character in here, how much of an antagonist he really feels like, and kind of almost this arch villain in a way where he has these minions he's able to send out into the world to Hunt down this person. And you're right, he never fully becomes a villain because we know his motivation is to save his universe. There's, of course, a selfishness there because he's also the most powerful person in this universe. So he wants to retain that power that he has, but we see where he's coming from. And yet at the same time, we can not like him, but not fully dislike him. It's a really well walked line in just this one issue.
Guido: And it's definitely a line that I think is true in the characters of Strange and Xavier. Is it something that shows up for Doctor faith in what you're familiar with?
Rob: Well, I do know what I am familiar with is Doctor Fate, especially in the JSA, the Jeff Jones run. He kind of loses his humanity. He does in there, and he's often struggling with NABU, who's then living in the helmet. And when is NABU, like, taking over? And is the human who's wearing the helmet still in charge? So there is that idea that unlike, say, Wildcat or someone who's super human on the JSA, he's losing that sense of his humanity. It's interesting that is thrown through a through line. And as you said, I think there's multiple I won't name them, but there's multiple characters, I think in this new Doctor Strange movie that um have this kind of amoral or walk the line between hero and villain as well. Uh i do think you're right. It's something that comes with characters that have great power. You even see it in Thanos as well in the MCU version. And I think in the comics as well, where he wants to he's going to kill all these people, but he has this justification in his mind, and I think that's something that makes a strong villain and a strong antihero.
Guido: Definitely true. In every Amalgam universe that we visit, there's a lot of backstory. Did you read the letters page here? Of course, yes, I do that it gives Strange Fate's origin in the letters page. It's just such a clever thing, because, of course, someone writes in and is like, who's ancient NABU. I know Xavier got his powers from him and a lot of the cool cult gear, but who was he? And so they go on to tell the origin, which is not told in this issue. And of course, we never get to see anywhere that Xavier was rescued by the ancient NABU, then the Lord Supreme of Order, when Xavier was traveling through the Himalayas and NABU began schooling him in the mystic arts. Already a powerful mutant telepath, Xavier soon surpassed his teacher and took over as Lord. So I just love the backstories that they give. And the Amalgam trading cards also give some backstory which are really fun to read and to try to find, because they put stuff in those that they don't even put in the comics. So there's a whole set of the trading cards that go into the Secret Crisis of the Infinity. Our story, which is a totally fake story, of course, putting everything together. Secret Wars Crisis, Infinite and Infinity Gauntlet and Zero Hour. But in that they tell the story of how Doctor Strange fate was fighting Thanos Ed, who was trying to get the five Infinity links. And so he was key in preventing that from happening. Then there's separate cards. I won't even go into all the details, but separate cards that describe that he Doctor Strange fate formed the JLA, and in what issue he did that. And then there's cards that actually talk about his relationship to the three characters in this book. So Bruce and Wanda and Frankie and why they do his bidding and how he had saved them in different ways. Each of them had their lives saved by Doctor Strange fate. So I just love how much backstory these characters in Amalgam have that we don't even get to see play out. But was thought about throughout this process.
Rob: Yeah. And it almost just gets your mind thinking, too, like, oh, it would be cool if this idea had continued that Doctor Strangefate had a sister who died in water, and they thought she drowned, but she actually discovered an ancient gem deep in the water and became the juggernauts. So you're combining, right?
Guido: You could fuse together with Xaviers.
Rob: Ken didn't really have a sibling, as far as we know, just a dad's fin. But you can put those two together and you get a female juggernaut. It's just like your brain starts spinning at all. The possibilities.
Guido: Yeah. So I think we definitely both would want to go back to this Earth to get more story for sure. I think that'll be our answer to every Amalgam, but I'm not going to actually explain if it's been revisited before because that is what we're about to encounter.
Rob: So let us Don our helmets and our floating mhm cloaks and move from NABU, the Ancient One. Yes, exactly. And move into um the realm of pondering possibilities. Will the future you describe? It's fitting that that was Charles right there. I know that our bonus episodes everywhere right now. So how did you come up with this list?
Guido: So the Amalgam lists are going to be interesting and generally tricky, though we happen to have started with two Amalgams that have follow ups. So Spider Boy had a follow up. This one has a direct follow up with Doctor Strange fate appearing again, actually playing a really uh important role again in the second of the three Access related DC Marvel miniseries that occurred in the 90s. Outside of that, I did think about the possibility of trying to find something where Xavier and Strange are connected to each other since they cohabit a universe, but certainly I would not have been able to engage Dr. Fate in that exploration. I think there will be some Amalgam characters where we do have to find something outside of the Amalgam universe, but in this case, we did not. And I'll explain why once we get into these two issues.
Rob: Well, and those two issues are Marvel versus DC, all Access issues number three and four. Those stories are in the Doctor's House from January 1997 and Savior from February 1997.
Guido: And both of these issues are written by Ron Mars, again, penciled by Jackson Geisse, inked by Joseph Rubenstein, colored by Lee Laughridge, lettered by Bill Oakley, and edited by Mike Carlin and Chris Duffy. So this is the follow up series. These are the final two issues of this four issues series. Mark Bruinwald is credited for inspiration on this whole series. In this series, Access starts to bring well, he brings Jubilee over to see Robin, and by doing that, all these other characters from the Marvel and DC universe start to show up in the wrong universe. And he discovers by issue three, which is why we start in issue three, or during issue three, he discovers that it must be related to Doctor Strange because he remembers Doctor Strange fate being so key to what happened in the Amalgam universe that we knew. And so these two issues, of course, go into his confrontation with Strange, which leads to the Xmen showing up because Jubilee is involved. And so you get some fun Xmen versus JLA going uh on here. But by the end of the battle, we have Doctor Strange fate manifesting in Doctor Strange because it turns out that Dr. Strange fate had left an aspect of his personality inside Doctor Strange. And so that comes out and he explains what his goal was. And he starts to zip up. He starts to amalgamate the characters, but now in different configurations. Because he doesn't have what he calls the building blocks of the Amalgam universe, he starts to amalgamate them differently, which is cool. Leads to some cool new amalgamated characters. And so Access encounters Dr. Strange in an outer dimension. In another dimension of some kind, his Astral ethereal form. And the Astral ethereal form goes into Doctor Strange fate wins, takes control back and puts the Amalgam universe inside a little energy vessel and places it inside Access. So instead of destroying it, he preserves it inside of Access. That's the story. And we read it because again, it's the continuation of Doctor Strange fate and Doctor Strange fate basically as villain. So what do you think?
Rob: Yes, I like this a lot. I think it's really great, especially if you watch Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness as well. There's lots of great tie in that I don't think we can fully reveal here, but I think there's lots of stuff there.
Guido: Now the one thing I'll mention is that you and I were talking about because this is not a spoiler canonically America Chavez's powers are to bust through the multiverse. And it's cool to have read this after seeing that movie because Access can travel the multiverse. So it's fun to watch that.
Rob: Yeah, I think issue three is not slow at all, but issue three, I think is a lot of it, or at least half of it. Seems almost like a lead up just to all the payoff that you get in issue four. And I almost thought issue four could have even gone longer. I think it could have almost been split into two issues, basically. One where it's a battle and then the second half is kind of getting exploring more of the Doctor Strange fate aspects, but for it being kind of as condensed as it was, I thought it was a really well done issue two issues.
Guido: And just the reason I think it could have been given more room is that it has new amalgamated characters that it would be fun to see more with, to play with them a little bit. Basically, they just get drawn, but they don't get to even do anything. So you have now Jean, Martian Manhunter, Cyclops, Green Lantern, Jubilee, Batman. I don't even know who's the Flash with.
Rob: Cannonball.
Guido: Oh, Flash Cannonball. That's awesome. I didn't realize that an Aquaman Ice Man as the new X Men JLA. So it's cool. And that would have just been fun to even hear them talk. I don't even know. So yeah, I think it could have used a bit more room to breathe. It was neat, though. It was a very neat, again, plot device. It makes total sense for the Doctor Strange fate character to have been the one who did this, to have been the one who planted this seed because none of the Marvel DC characters remember the Amalgam universe. So for him to have planted the seed that would become Strange Fate, that would be then trying to bring back that Amalgamated Universe makes total sense here. And to have Access confront him and realize it through he realizes it through the logo being the same, the icon being the same on Doctor Strange's, windows being the same as it was at Strange Fate's Tower. So just cool connections that I really loved. It had me thinking so much about this becoming a multimedia property.
Rob: Uh yeah, let's talk more about that. But I was thinking, too. This actually reminded me. Yes, of course, the multi versus madness, which we won't fully go into. But I think there's a lot of stuff here, actually from no Way Home as well, which I think I can spoil now. It's been a little bit and it was the third most successful movie of all time, so I think a lot of people have seen it. But the idea here where Access brings Jubilee in to see Robin, but because of that, he's also um accidentally brings in Scorpion. So we get a Scorpion from the Spiderman villain versus Batman Batman.
Guido: So that happens because of Strange.
Rob: Oh, that happens because they explain later.
Guido: Yeah. Strange has been piggybacking on Access teleporting.
Rob: But there's still, I think, a little bit of elements that you see in no Way Home where these characters from the other universes are accidentally kind of getting into this universe because of a totally separate action. So I can see a little bit.
Guido: Well, it also has the same climax, I'd say, with why the JLA show up, because, of course, the JLA are brought to the Six One Six because all the action of these two issues actually takes place in the Six One Six. Well, the earlier stuff had taken place in DC Earth, because that's where Jubilee was brought. But then once we hit the sort of main plot here, he goes to the Six One Six with Jubilee and Batman and Robin, and then the X Men show up, and then he brings the JLA over. So it feels very much like the no Way Home, like the villains are there. But then to deal with that.
Rob: You'Re going to be bringing the heroes and the forgetting aspect, too, which becomes such key to no Way Home and is already key used in a different way. But I think you kind of have to have that cool device of them not remembering this happens. And it's fun that you basically have two characters that remember our de facto protagonist in Access and then our de facto antagonist in Doctor Strange Fate.
Guido: Yeah, I wasn't thinking no Way Home. I was thinking multiverse of madness. But I think in either case, I just find it hard to believe that this wasn't source material for someone. They do so much. We know that they do so much comic book research. And this is one of are probably the most famous multiverse story because it truly is the Omniverse. It's the Omniverse of comic book fiction. It breaks all of those barriers. So it's even bigger and more iconic than any in universe story of a multiverse. So I can't imagine that it wasn't on someone's reading list at some point. I was actually, in reading it, trying to think if there were, like, any slight Easter eggs. I don't think there'd be anything really explicit, but I was just trying to think, like, did anyone use the word access in multiverse abandoned? Yeah, because I'd like to see that.
Rob: The other question I had for you, Guido, is, of course, the big part of this, especially issue four, is the battle between the X Men or this group of the X Men and this group of the JLA. Who do you think? Of course, as we know from reading a bit about this, no one could ever really win in these battles. They always had to kind of keep it even to appease both publishers. But who do you think in a real world would win this battle? Because I have my I'm torn for a reason.
Guido: But I'm afraid to say that with these team configurations, the JLA is destroying the Xmen because this is the JLA. It's Flash, Green Lantern, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter. This is the powerhouses of the JLA. And then on this version of the Xmen, you do not have the powerhouses. I'm sorry to fans of these folks. I love all X Men equally. But you have Jubilee Bishop. I mean, fine Jean Gray, fine Storm. And I think mhm Iceman is considered an Omega level mutant now, but at this point, he didn't have Omega access to his power, so he's pretty worthless at this point. I know Cannonball is an eternal, but other than that, whatever. Cannonball can fight well. So whatever Superman is, definitely.
Rob: He can't even fight that well because he flies at Batman, who has no superpowers, and punches him in the face, and he goes, like, flying in the wrong direction.
Guido: And then Cyclops Optic blasts are not going to do anything to Superman or Wonder Woman, and he's not going to be able to hit Flash. So I just think that other than Gene, this team is not equipped to deal with these folks.
Rob: And that's what I was going to say, though. So here's my thought is what all Gene needs to do is take over Superman's mind and have Superman just fight the rest of the JLA. And then I think maybe they win, because basically nobody beats Superman. So I think Gene has to take over his mind and have him shoot Optic keep last and punch Wonder Woman in the face. And like, that's how they win. It's all about Gene. They're nothing without her.
Guido: Yeah, I agree. I like that. Storm and Wonder Woman go up against each other again, because, of course, in the original Marvel vs. Dc, they do, and then they become the Amazon, but they end up not fighting. Which also makes total sense to me that the two of them have any characters would be like, you know what? We've been forced to be opponents. I see no reason we can't choose to be friends. And they get they're both gods.
Rob: They're both royalty and godly.
Guido: And then the other thing I'll mention as I'm flipping through the battle, there is one really cool 16 panel page, which is so rare, I can't even picture another 16 panel page where we have Doctor Strange transforming into Doctor Strange Fate, and all of these characters looking on, and it's almost like horror, actually speaking, a multiverse of madness. They're all, like, wide eyed and shocked because there's this Orange glow and he's transforming and it's very cool. While the art, I think, is at times a little oversimplified, even cartoony, I suspect it might have just been rushed. Like, there's a lot of backgrounds missing where they should be backgrounds. But I really love the art, and that's when it's at its best, too, is when it's doing really cool stuff in issue four. So I don't think I have anything else to say about this. And we don't really have to talk about the inspiration because it's a continuation. Of course, this character has never been seen again, so we can't explore the inspiration of Strange Fate. I mean, is there anything you think having done an amalgam of those three inspired? I don't think so, no.
Rob: I think the one thing that. No, not really. I'm thinking to the one thing that doesn't really get explored in this issue that would have been really fun for them to do is pulling on the Xavier element with the Xmen that's like, I think the one missing piece here.
Guido: That's true.
Rob: I never see Doctor Strange fate without his helmet, so it doesn't even really matter that it's Charles. So it would be great for have had a moment. And this is why going back to what we were just saying, like, if this had been three issues instead of the two that we read, I think maybe it would have been great. He takes off the helmet and Scott is like, Charles, what are you doing, professor?
Guido: Well, he's also not technically Charles. I mean, we don't know quite how it worked, but unless Doctor Strangefate body like, unless six one six Strange's body became amalgam Strangefate's body, then he's not Xavier. He's actually six one six Stephen Strange's body with the consciousness of Strange Fate, who I guess is ultimately Charles Xavier in his brain. So it's uh a little complicated, which would have been real fun to try to unpack. There is that moment when Jean can sense something's happening. She's trying to get Martian Manhunter to stop fighting Cyclops, and she's like, Leave my husband alone. And then she's like, Wait, but something's going on, so she can sense something, but they don't really ever go far with it. So, yeah, I think the impact of this is just how extraordinary the Amalgam stuff is and what a missed opportunity it will be um until they come back together and make a deal to do more of this sometime.
Rob: Um well, that would be my big future possibilities. Question for you is, what do you think in all likelihood is that they would do not just a comic where these characters come back together, but a other media property, animated live action, where there's some kind of Amalgam world?
Guido: I mean, who knows? There's so much money to be made in it that it's hard to tell. Obviously, uh non print media is probably the hardest because we already know just how difficult uh it was for Sony and Marvel to come to agreements, and they are really mutually beneficial because it's like the same. The IP is unified. So when the IP is not unified, I'd imagine it be really hard. I mean, there's a part of me this is the super naive part, who's like, well, just split it 50 50, right? Like Warner, Disney, get together, make a movie and split it 50 50. But I'm sure it's far more complicated than that. And so I can't imagine that ever happening. The comics, every few years there's a rumor, I think a few years ago it was really fueled by, I want to say, like, Donny Kate's Tweets or something. And there are a few exclusives still. But the exclusives, I feel like, are going away, and the writers all move from company to company and work closely together and through the convention circuit and social media, I think are really connected with each other. So I can see a comic happening for sure. I'm sure there's still tons of legal stuff to deal with that might make it never happen. But creatively, I could definitely see a lot of people who would be able to and willing to do this. And with multiverses so hot right now. I mean, so hot. Speaking of Donny Kate's, right. He's doing the same thing in Image Comics. He's pulling every single property and busting it into crossover. I just think if it's going to happen, it's going to happen in the next two years, because this is like the hottest moment. There's a part of me that hopes that reprint I'll be at a small one of JLA Avengers from earlier this year for the Hero Initiative was maybe like a testing of the waters if they could come to a legal agreement and profit. So who knows?
Rob: Yeah, maybe they'll even throw other brands into the mix so we would get Spawn in there and the other non DC Marvel just make it a big hodgepodge of everybody together.
Guido: That does not sound quite as pleasant to me, but I'm sure to someone it does.
Rob: Yes, exactly.
Guido: All right. Well, on this journey, I have been Grob.
Rob: And I have been Ravo. And that's a wrap. Dear watchers, thank you so much for listening.
Guido: The reading list is in the show notes. You can follow us on Twitter at deer watchers and please leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts and send us an image of that review and we'll send you some stickers.
Rob: We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.
Guido: In the words of UWA to keep pondering the possibilities.