Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Rob: Welcome, um, to Dear Watchers, an omniversal comic book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.
Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories in the world that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers. I don't know. I was going to say I have The Dark Knight, but just watchers of the night on this journey. That sounds a little creepy. Or me.
Rob: Edo and Rob klaw. Dark. Dark Rob. Either one. And speaking of darkness, I think there's someone lurking in the shadows. Is it an assassin? I don't know. He's wearing an eye patch. No, no, no. It's frequent guest and friend to the show, ethan of, uh, ethan of make mine of alcohol. Not Ethan makes mine of algae.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: Or again, since we're doing an amalgamish issue, uwatu The Guardian.
Guido: There you go. That's true. That would have been the better way to go with this intro. Uh, well, thank you, Ethan, for joining us. Uwatsu The Guardian and listeners, if you are not familiar, if you're perhaps joining us newly, you can hear Ethan back on episodes 1925, 32, 36, and 63. And we'll put links in the show notes because it's an episode. It, uh, is, and it's worth going to revisit all of them.
Rob: Yes. Well, welcome again, Ethan, and thank you. And Guido, what is up with us in our little section of the multiverse?
Guido: Well, we have something exciting coming in December. It sort of just happened and it has to do with art. And if you like art and weird comic things and maybe if you like mashups a bit, Ethan, then this is going to be something really fun that we have been working on and we'll have a lot more to share in December. And don't forget to check out last week's episode if you skipped it. It was really huge for us. It was a really exciting interview and it was so exciting that we have an unabriged version for our coffee patrons to listen to. But the main feed version is also really, uh, important for all comic fans, marvel fans, continuity fans, etc. So listen to that last episode. Watch for some announcements in the coming weeks about really fun stuff we have to share. And then social media, just a reminder, as the social media world changes, you.
Rob: Can check us out. Whatever word do you want to say?
Guido: You can check us out many places, including, like, YouTube. We started putting our episodes on YouTube and trying to do some clips on there. And we joined Hive and we're everywhere and always as Deer Watchers. Luckily, that's not something that other people are stealing. And please don't get any ideas and start stealing it on new platforms from us. Let us have it. But we're always Deer Watchers.
Rob: Uh, this YouTube, I guess I got to check this out. I haven't heard about this. The kids must be into it with the YouTube and the TikToks. Okay. And also, please take a moment when, uh, this episode is over to do two things. So, one, tell a friend to listen to us. So if you have a friend, maybe your local comic book shop, let them know that we are out there in the multiverse. And two, leave us a review on Apple. And if you don't use Apple podcasts, leave us a review wherever. But if you use Apple podcast, that is the one that really helps with find ability. If that is, if you don't use.
Guido: It, you can also go in. And that's true.
Rob: That's true. You can still write.
Guido: Yes, we're like those shady Amazon reviewers. People are clearly being paid or something to go in and review. But we're not paying anything.
Rob: No, exactly. So we're a little less shady. And if you are joining us for the first time, we have three sections of the show origins of the story, what inspired this other reality? Exploring multiversity, we dive deeper into our alternate universe and pondering possibilities. We examine the impact and what's followed or coming in the future. And with that, dear watchers, let's head to Gotham City. And welcome to episode 73. Let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with today's alternate universe. And today, our question is, what if Kevin Conroy, the best Batman there is, was amalgamated with Wolverine in an animated series? What a question.
Guido: I love that question. I love it. I love it. I love it. And this is all thanks to Ethan, who suggested this whole episode. But giving a little background on, uh, where this question came from. This is Earth 9602. The Amalgam universe. The book that we looked at was during wave two, the 97 wave of books. You can hear us cover other amalgams on episodes 36, 44, and 55. So we give a lot more background than we're going to today. But for those not familiar, which I think all of us would probably say shame, but for those not familiar, have.
Rob: You got the bell? The Shame Bell.
Guido: Amalgam was a mash, uh, up of Marvel and DC spinning out of a Marvel versus DC series, although it came back in a second wave, which was unprompted by a series. And that's where this came from today. This is in the again, Ethan suggested this episode based on, sadly, the untimely passing of Kevin Conroy, who died in early November after playing Batman for 30 years. And as we go through, Ethan can share more about the reason we watched and read what we did because they were from his suggestions. But, Ethan, do you want to say anything about why you thought about this episode with Kevin passing?
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: Well, I thought about doing a Dark Claw episode specifically because this is the only Amalgam book that's based off of a cartoon or a cartoon tie in comic. They never made a super soldier animated comic, and Superman had a book. So I thought, well, what perfect way to commemorate Kevin conroy and put my own little spin on it.
Guido: Yeah, and it just gives us a chance to talk about him and his impact, too. Thank you for it.
Rob: Yes. And we've covered our backgrounds on Amalgam in those other episodes that Keto referenced. So if you want to hear more about our backgrounds with Amalgam as well as the actual history of Amalgam comics, go and check out those episodes. But let's talk about our history with Batman The Animated Series because that's another big thing that we're going to be talking about today. So, Ethan, why don't you kick us off? What's your background with Batman the Animated Series?
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: I think when I was a kid, it was one of my first Batman shows I watched, and only recently I watched a couple more episodes. One because we're trying to watch a lot of Christmas stuff in my house. So we watched the Christmas Joker episode shortly after Kevin's passing. And then for this episode, I almost watched the first episode. Then I thought about it, let's see how we can connect it even more. And so I watched M this particular episode recently.
Guido: So when you were little, did you watch a lot of it? Like, do you think you've seen a lot of the show or you didn't.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: Watch Chances, like, when it was in syndication? So probably not, like, episode by episode because I was born in 94, so I was probably watching some reruns on Cartoon Network when that was starting to end and they started to stop doing that. So I remember, like, Christmas was a joker. I definitely saw on a VHS that I got from Blockbuster. Yeah, that's dated. The VHS doesn't date it enough. Um, so, yeah, I saw a couple of episodes here and there. And then this one that we watched for the episode, I don't think I'd ever seen it. I just like, I was looking up episodes that would relate and boy, did it.
Rob: Yeah. Well, speaking of dating ourselves, keto and I watched this in its original run on television, I think. So, Keto, what was your background with Batman the Animated Series?
Guido: Yeah, well, considering that I was, uh, just about a teenager when I started, I'm ahead of all of you. Um, so I loved the show. It debuted with Xmen the Animated Series, which was my favorite being an Xmen person. But this show and I'll get more into what I think about the quality of the show when we get to the episode. But spoiler alert on my opinion, this show is extraordinary and amazing. And so I loved it as a kid, even though I was not super into Batman, it completely pulled me in and I watched it every day for years and years and years. And then when it got releases on DVD and Bluray, I always got those sets because it's so easy to turn on and enjoy and watch. And so I've watched them all a few times. And so I know the show really well. Some of the later seasons, I don't know quite as well when they start to play with the format, but that's just from not having seen them eight times. I've only seen them three times or something like that. So I love this show. I know the show well. And it is my Batman, for sure. This is my Batman. This is the template of Batman for me. And I think for a lot of people.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: And it's neat that sorry, um, no, go ahead. It's neat that you say that. Uh, was it about okay, yeah, he's your Batman and you weren't really into Batman and you watched it for me. I think that was one of my first exposures because I was like, watching a lot of cartoons and that got me into a lot of the comics.
Guido: Mhm, yeah, it's really so iconic. More than I think people even realize, although I think a good number of people realize it. But Rob, you, you're somewhere in the middle of Ethan's, and I was going.
Rob: To say your age. I feel like I was right in the sweet spot more than Yugito for this series because I was definitely actually watching it on Saturday morning as a younger kid. And yeah, I love this series. I watched it every weekend. Even more so than this series as a whole. I was a huge fan of the feature length film Batman Mask of the Phantasm, which I had also, speaking of VHS, had that on, uh, VHS, watched that all the time. Probably watched that more than I watched any of the live action Batman movies that were of that first four movies there. But yeah, I just love this series. And the thing one thing I love about this series is it always had also a lot of these more grotesque villains, these kind of minor characters and the whole series. And um, we can talk about this more, but I was a big Dick Tracy fan, too, of the Warren Beatty movie. And it's a big strong Dick Tracy vibe from the Danny Elfman opening theme. And he did the music for Dick Tracy, but that 50s thing. And then the kind of grotesque villain. So I loved Ventriloquist's Scarface, and I love I forget her name, but there's like the Annabelle kind of character where she, uh, never grows up and she never looks older, but she's actually like, uh, a middle aged person, so it looks like a little kid. And it's like, that's so creepy. And, uh, having it on Saturday morning television is just so cool. And I think this episode also, that we're going to be talking about today taps into a lot of that feeling of something, uh, that existed before anyone. Most people who are watching the show were even born. This kind of aesthetic, and yet it's kind of introducing it through this new lens to another generation, which is pretty amazing.
Guido: That's what's so cool about it, is it felt like and it still feels like even as an adult, very adult, it feels like you're watching something you shouldn't be watching, but, um, not in a way that feels gross or dirty or exploitative. But there's something dark about the show. And it's not heavy, though. Like, it's still a kids cartoon, and it still has that action adventure fun. But yeah, the villains and the tone and the plot even, I mean, it feels a little more adult, I have to say. Xmen, uh, The Animated Series is probably my favorite because of my love of it. But I think Batman is a better executed show. I think it's really extraordinary.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: Yeah, I actually tweeted recently that I feel a sense of validation that it says TV PG on HBO. Max. I started with 28 and should be able to watch whatever I want. But I still.
Rob: Yes, but I think you're right. I think both of those shows, though, they are great companion pieces because one dealt with these kind of political stories and also these elongated story arcs. And that only did kind of two part episodes. They didn't do, like, those super long arcs, but had that kind of darkness in it that they expand. The Animated Series didn't in other ways, so they really, I think, go hand in hand. And also, they visually contrast so much the brightness of those kind of Jim Lee Xmen costumes. And then one thing I know, what they did with Batman, The Animated Series is I believe they animated it over black. So they started with, like, a black page, and then they animated on top of that. So it gives it such a unique look that you really don't see from any other animated series.
Guido: No, truly amazing. And we really if people aren't familiar with the history of the two shows both debuting, uh, on Fox, really importantly, it's Margaret Lesch. Margaret Lesch was the executive who created the Fox kids programming block that we know and love, and that these two iconic, forever cemented classic shows happened in. So it's very cool to learn a little bit about the business side and how they developed these and where they came from. So I strongly recommend that, uh, get the TV ready.
Rob: Our Saturday morning cereal. Well, we have to adjust the rabbit ears to make sure everything's coming in clearly. And then we'll journey into origins of the story.
Guido: Right now on this very show, you're going to get the answer to all your questions.
Rob: Our amazing story begins a few years ago.
Guido: So they really loaded, uh, some of the score from Batman Animated on the sound board.
Rob: Everyone could hear it in their head, though you can read these issues listening to it like we did, actually. Yeah. And this is really just a good excuse to talk even more about Batman in The Animated Series, because the first thing we're going to be discussing is just that, an episode from November 1992 entitled Off Balance.
Guido: And so this is the 44th episode of the series, and it is written by Len Weine, the comic book writer, directed by Kevin Altieri, produced by Alan Burnett, Eric Roddski, and Bruce Tim. And so, Ethan, why this episode?
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: I chose this episode along with the, uh, Batman issue that we're going to discuss later, because you're going to see a theme of Talia not just being in the episode, but the relationship between Talia and Batman.
Guido: I think this is her first appearance on the TV show, right.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: And I believe I believe it's her first appearance in, um, that version of the comic as well.
Guido: Yeah, that makes sense. Uh, so I loved Re watching this. This was not an episode I remembered super well. But again, in terms of what I was saying about the adult thing, the talia Batman romance thing is one of those examples where it felt like you were watching something very adult because they have somehow these drawn on the screen characters have a lot of chemistry, and you can sort of feel the chemistry between them and the episode. And then it's just a fun, typical episode. Outside of that, a good way of deepening the, uh, race algorithm lore in The Animated Series. So I loved rewatching it. What did you both think?
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: I loved it. Um, I don't think I'd ever seen that episode before. So I had actually Googled around to see, and I just ended up lucking out that all of these ended up being as connected as they were. But I'm about to make just as groundbreaking a statement as I did with my Nick Fury episode, that Jack Curb is amazing. Um, but it's very cinematic.
Guido: Yeah, even the pacing, um, which is I think, obviously, we can picture the opening theme, and that's very cinematic. But there's something about the story pacing, and I think that's why their relationship and their sort of will they, won't they feeling translates so well because, uh, cinematic.
Rob: Well, I think one of the things that does that is there's a lot of Hitchcock references in this episode throughout, and I think that gives it the cinematic, uh, evidence, uh, feel. If you look at the way the title card is rendered very Hitchcock with this kind of broken up reminds me of how they do the Psycho title card. There's this fight on the Statue of Liberty in which Hitchcock has a fight on the Statue of Liberty and sabotage when Count Vertigo falls. It's got a Vertigo feeling of the movie Vertigo, and his name is Vertigo. And then also the overall, she's not the icy blonde Battalia has that kind of fem, fatal feel of a Hitchcock, or another 40s or 50s kind of fem, fetal feeling throughout with the Veronica Lake hair that's kind of covering half of her face the entire one. So all those kind of references. And that's what I was kind of mentioning before, too. It's so cool that these creators, obviously, they grew up with these kind of movies, and they're putting this into this for a generation of kids that had never seen this before. And I think I would imagine for myself, who then became enamored with Hitchcock, and I know yourself to Guido, big Hitchcock fan and, like, big fan of movies from this era, I bet, like, this show put those seeds, gave you that language to understand those movies before you maybe then saw some of those movies.
Guido: Yeah, I mean, I was watching Hintscock Young, so, uh, possibly I don't know which order it went in, but, uh, I definitely agree. There's connections to that classic cinema, which is part of why it has the cinematic feel. And obviously, it's also doing lots of noir and evoking lots of noir, which is something actually, I wasn't into a lot as a younger movie viewer, but now I'm more into. And you're right, like, the femme fatal, Veronica Lake aspect is there.
Rob: Yeah. And I was like, oh, it's great. This is one of the Count Vertigo episodes. I remember his appearances on this so well. But this is his only appearance on the show. I think it was just his look and feel was so kind of iconic in my brain that I was thinking, oh, he was reoccurring, but this is his only appearance.
Guido: I want to say that's true for, uh, Harley is not in that many episodes. Of course, the show is famous because it created Harley and introduced Harley. But I want to say she's actually not in that many episodes. But of course, the few episodes she's in are iconic. Like, beyond iconic. I think a lot of the episodes do that. They play tricks on you. You feel like you've seen this story a lot, but they're just so good.
Rob: I, uh, think that's true of, like, Batman 66, too, where someone like Egghead only has a couple of appearances, but we think of him as super iconic. And actually, that makes me think of the last thing I wanted to bring up, which was, like, the 66 show, which had all these great guest stars. And I just wanted to talk a second about the great voice cast on this episode.
Guido: Yeah.
Rob: Um, because what's cool is they didn't go, like, the Chris Pratt Mario route. Let's just get the biggest name and put him as his character, even though it's not a great fit. But they didn't go, uh, let's just get animation people, either. They got these really cool kind of left field actors. So we've got David Warner as Rosal Ghoul and David Warner as Titanic and The Omen, and has one of the best filmographies of all time. One of my favorite actors, michael Yorke from Cabaret and the Austin Powers. Our movies as Count Vertigo and then we have Supergirl herself, Helen Slater, playing very against type as Talia, too.
Guido: Mhm yeah, Warner does DC and Warner always like to keep it in the family. So, yeah, Helen as good casting example of that.
Rob: Totally. Yeah. I'm sure we'll talk more about Kevin Conroy throughout this episode, but I think just as iconic as he is as Batman is Ephraim Zimbalis Jr. As Alfred, I think he just strikes that perfect tone. He gives us so much of the comedy in this episode and throughout the series, these kind of very rare remarks. And I think you can totally see how Tom Hollander on The Harley Quinn Show is also referencing Ephraim Zabal's Jr's. Portrayal on this. And I was just looking it up. And a fun fact, ephraim and Kevin Conroy have the same birthday, born many years apart, but they were born on the same day. Yeah.
Guido: Interesting. Well, let's talk I mean, we'll talk about Kevin's bio more later, but let's talk about his performance here as Batman. Why is it perfect? So it is perfect. I'm going to get that as a fact. Why?
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: I think I'm going to paraphrase something I saw on Twitter.
Rob: Um.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: The reason why we don't see Tweets saying, oh, we'll never hear Kevin Conroy's voice again is because we'll always hear it when we're reading a Batman story.
Guido: Mhm that's so true. That is so true.
Rob: Yeah, I think the line between his Bruce and his Batman is a lot thinner. And because we've seen people like Christian Bale who does that, I'm going to play Bruce very different than I playing Batman. But, yeah, I think Kevin is able to kind of do them both similarly. And it works because they are the same person. Maybe he doesn't have to put on that persona as much. And yet and there's also, though, that lightness of it you don't get from, like, Robert Pattinson, who is very dark and serious the entire time. You do get that detect swashbuckling feel.
Guido: Well, I m don't think this is true for Michael Keaton. I actually think Michael Keaton might be closer to the Kevin Conway version, but definitely the Christian Bale and the Robert Pattinson version. I think what I imagine my challenge with both of them is.
Rob: It feels.
Guido: Like you would tire your voice out doing what either of them are doing. They're both so affected when they're doing Batman that you're like, there's no way you could do that all the time. Like, it just wouldn't work. And Kevin conroy. And perhaps Michael Keaton doesn't do that. Like Kevin Conroy. You can imagine talking sort of like, yeah, I'm feeling really intense right now, so I'm going to talk like this versus, oh, I'm at a party and I'm going to talk like this. Right? I can modulate my voice like that. We all do in different settings. But the way that Christian Bale and Kevin Patton, uh, Robert Pattinson modulate their voice just feels so forced and so intense that you're like, you can't sustain that. Get out of here. Um, so, yeah, I think some of it might be that subtlety, I guess, that Kevin Conroy is using really adds to it and makes it stick. I guess he also just has a great voice.
Rob: Yeah.
Guido: I don't know how else to explain it.
Rob: Yes. Uh, I think it's also just freed just, like, listening to his voice. And it goes so well with the animation too. So it's just a perfect combination. And, ah, it's so funny because we were saying we'll hear his voice even when we're then reading the comics. And in fact, the, uh, next thing we're going to talk about is Batman the Animated Series comic. And that is Batman Adventures, volume number one, issue number 29 from February 1995. So about three years after our, uh, episode. And this issue is entitled demon seed.
Guido: This is written by Kelly Puckett, penciled by Dev Madonna, inked by Rich Burtchett, colored by Rick Taylor. Lettered by Comic Craft richard Starkings edited by Scott Peterson Darren Vincenzo So the Batman Adventures comics are based on the TV show. They don't retell those stories, though. They're telling original stories with the same art style, the same story structure. So you'll notice that there's three act breaks like the commercials would present in the episode and a very selfcontained episodic feel. I've never seen a great analysis. Maybe there is one, but I've never seen if they're canonical or not. I think they kind of can be canonical to the world of Batman The Animated Series, because they're very contained and they reset the status quo just like the series does. So they probably could be canonical, but I don't know that for a fact. And like the series itself, the volumes of Batman Adventures morphed. So when they introduced Robin and became Batman and Robin, then the comic series did that. And of course, Batman Adventures Volume One has the special issue called Mad Love. It's a nonnumumbered special, which is the first Harley appearance in comics. So that's why Batman Adventures is often paid attention to, because that issue is, of course, incredibly valuable and famous for that reason. But why this issue of Batman Adventures, you think?
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: Because this one because I basically feel that it is the same as the episode minus Count Vertigo. Count Vertigo even more similar to the other issue we're going to COVID because it still mirrors the relationship between Talia and Batman, which I feel so weird thing, Talia and Batman. And then we're going to get to the next issue. Um, but it's very why these were all so perfect is because even the Dark Claw issue that we're going to COVID it feels more Batman than it feels Wolverine.
Guido: Yeah, that's for sure.
Rob: Yeah. And in both this issue and the episode, we have Ras Algor in the issue or episode, but he's kind of haunting the edges of it. And he really only makes an appearance in both at the very end, which I think it fits because of all the Batman villains, he's the one that's kind of like the blow filled mastermind kind of one. And he wouldn't necessarily be down in the nitty gritty action in the way that the Joker even would be, right? So it kind of works that he's this kind of grand criminal. Not even criminal. He's like terrorist mastermind, really.
Guido: Yeah, he's a presence. Mhm um, this issue, Rob, you probably never read Batman Adventures even maybe you have either, but have either of you read this?
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: I have.
Guido: Not this comic. Not this issue, but just the comic.
Rob: I had a couple yeah, no, I did have a couple of random ones, but I probably bought them based on whatever villain was in it. So I probably didn't have this one because Ros and Talia were never really at the top of my villain list.
Guido: I think it does a perfect job capturing the show. You feel like you're looking at the storyboards for an episode in part. Also, the breakdowns are meant to look like the show, so it's not even just the art, but it really does feel like storyboards. It's a very cool thing that they did here. Again, comparing it to there was the Xmen Adventures. Now that was more an adaptation of the stories and it wasn't meant to look or read like the TV show, I think, to its detriment. I'm not a huge fan of that series. This, I think, is such a perfect extension. If you're a fan of the show, reading this comic gives you that same exact experience. You almost just want this issue to be turned into an episode because it easily could be. And what makes me think of all that is a lot but like, Natalia Bruce chemistry is there on the panel. Like the will they, won't they thing that's happening on there is really fun. And then, Rob, in terms of what you're saying with the homage to other things, I love the one time they go to a wedding venue. Um, on this case, they go to the Happy Fate wedding parlor. And it's just fun because there's like this slimy guy who's sitting at the desk at the wedding parlor and says, we're closed for the season. And it just cuts to Talia holding a gun at him, saying, season's over. And Batman's, like, in the back beating someone up. So it's like just it's so fun to see them on a case together in this issue. And I love it.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: Similar to yeah, well, I think similar to how they were on a case together in the episode.
Rob: Mhm yeah. I think Ross and the Algool family brings out the detective in Batman, and Ross even just calls him detective the entire time, too. And we definitely get this kind of classic going back to the fem Fatal 40 still noir kind of. Thing. Definitely get that vibe here and that kind of detective story. And even though it's kind of inevitable, you kind of know where it's going to be going in this. It's clearly for a younger audience, but it still has that strong structure there. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, let, uh, us leave the world of Batman the Animated Series. Unfortunately, but maybe fortunately, because we are entering a little known universe known as the Amalgam verse.
Guido: I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if?
Rob: So today on Exploring Multiversity, we are asking the question, what if Kevin Conroy, the best Batman there is, was amalgamated with Wolverine in an animated series? And this issue is Dark Claw Adventures issue number one from June 1997, entitled Face to Face.
Guido: And this is written and pencil by Ty Templeton, inked by Rick Burtchett, colored by Linda Medley, lettered by Tim Harkins and edited by Scott Peterson and Darren Finchenzo. And there's a special thanks to Dan Slot on this issue. And coincidentally, I just heard an interview with Tom Bruvort, and I think he mentioned Dan Slot came up with the racial apocalypse concept, which is why he gets a special thanks in this issue. So this is, again, Earth 9602, the Amalgam Universe, kind of, I guess. And it occurred this was actually during vol two of Batman Adventures, which was when they have Robin in the series at that point. And like all the Amalgam titles did, they froze Batman Adventures for a month. That didn't come out. And instead, this issue came out as part of wave two of Amalgam. So wow. There's a lot to say about this issue. It is filled with Easter eggs, and I want to spend a lot of time on Easter eggs. But I guess let's start with some general impressions. So, Ethan, what did you think? Obviously you'd be familiar with this. What do you think of this issue?
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: I love it. I wish it actually was an animated series or agreed. Or you want to get real technical, as they say in the Letters column, animated show.
Guido: Yes, I know. I love the mashups in the Letters page. There's a few I will note in this conversation because they're great and they're on, uh, the Fox Brothers network, too. I love that. Very clever. I agree. Or, uh, if it wasn't going to be a series, I wish it was like Batman Adventures. Like, it was an ongoing comics made to be like, the leader.
Rob: Yeah.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: Because we'll get to them. But I need to see more of those villains.
Guido: Oh, my gosh. In fact, I took note of all of those names that they created. Uh, Rob, what did you think? Maybe I read this issue.
Rob: I had read this definitely, probably in 90, 97, and I think I loved it so much, it actually made me a little depressed that this is not an actual ongoing thing. I don't even need the animated TV series. I just need the comic. And I know we've talked about in our past episodes that people can go back and listen to, but of, uh, all of the Amalgam characters, this one seems like the most no brainer. That if these two people, just two companies got together and said, okay, we're just going to make one Amalgam character and it's going to be Dark Claw, and he's going to have an ongoing comic book series and we're going to share the profits. I mean, like, two super popular characters in Wolverine and Batman, they go together so perfectly well. They could totally replicate this style because nostalgia is also in. All the people who grew up with the show, like we talked about at the beginning, are, uh, now would be getting back into it. It seems like a no brainer. And it's kind of sad to me that they can't get their stuff together and do that.
Guido: Well, we haven't done the core Universe Dark Claw issue yet, which we will at some point. But yeah, I think Ethan might agree with you. Ethan's wearing a shirt that says just that today Dark Claw is better than greater than Batman plus Wolverine. Uh, so yeah, I think one cool to start off with some of the Easter eggs. What's cool is I'm not the biggest Batman fan, so I actually had to look some of these Easter eggs up. But there are so many in there from both Wolverine and Batman. Ty Templeton, who was writing the Batman Adventure series at this point, he does such a good job of pulling pieces of both of them in. And I knew all the Wolverine references, but, for example, his code name is Patch Malone. Of course, Wolverine goes by Patch for a while. I looked it up. And Batman went by Matches Malone when he would pretend to be a criminal. So you've got Patch Malone there. And then I love at the end of the issue, they're previewing the next issue, which, of course, doesn't exist, sadly, that they're going to have the Secret of the Waiting Phoenix Saga. And that's a combination of a famous Neil Adams Batman story. The secret of the waiting graves, I think. And then, of course, the Phoenix Saga. So they just do this. They have so much fun with pulling pieces of both of them in as great little nods to each world. And I like it a lot.
Rob: Yeah, we definitely should get through the pantheon of villains, uh, that I know Ethan probably can tell us so much about. But aside from Dark Claw himself, um, we've got Sparrow, uh, here, who is Jubilee and Robin, which is the perfect combination because we're singing at one M.
Guido: Point on panel, which is great, actually. I know it's a slightly revised version of the they didn't want to get.
Rob: In trouble, but a perfect combination in terms of their personalities. The yellow in Robin's cape, the yellow, and her coat. And then we know from one of the past and algorithms'that we covered that they actually had a short lived romance as well. So even, uh, on that makes it great that these kind of characters are combined.
Guido: Uh, I'd say that adds an element of weirdness. We love each other so much, let's just combine.
Rob: Who are you to judge? And then our two we get our two villains. Well, one's only shown in flashback, but we get Roz Apocalypse, which also makes perfect sense because both characters are old and can rejuvenate and have their own kind of versions of the Lazarus Pit.
Guido: I have sort of a survival of the fittest mentality, their moral code. They're not there to be evil. They're there to have the strong conquer the earth.
Rob: Yeah. Restart humanity or mutant dumb there. And then, um, our second biggest character here, which is Talia Algul and lady lady Talia here.
Guido: Lady Talia?
Rob: Yes. Which is just so great because they're both not only the romantic connection to the protagonist, but also they are both ninjas as well. So you've got that great connection. It really is the app. I was thinking, who are they going to match her I didn't remember this. Who are they going to match her up with? And then as soon as I saw it, it was like, oh my gosh, of course. It's the absolute perfect combination.
Guido: It is. And yes, I think you're right, because both characters, Lady Deathstrike and Talia, have these romances with Batman and Wolverine. It just reinforces how much this makes sense. And then the fact that she kills him at the end, or thinks she kills him at the end, tries to kill him at the end, which you can totally see Talia or Death Strike doing. But then she's so upset about that. But luckily his healing factor means he's not dead. And mhm, they sort of close in their loving embrace while Dark Claw was potentially dying. And that feels like it would work in either universe. That's why this story is so cool, because it's one of the rare Amalgams, I think, where the same story could work for either core character. And that's really cool.
Rob: Totally. Should we go through the other briefly seen Amalgam characters? Yes.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: So, one that we've already met, Green Goblin or Two Face Goblin, which I actually referenced in our episode. This is the scene, this is the panel where you see him on the giant coin.
Guido: Yes. Harvey Osborne.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: Him two faced goblin instead of just green goblin like they're doing speed demons. Another, we will meet later down the road when we do the other Dark Claw issue. Which, by the way, I have two copies of that. One is signed by Larry Hammer or Hammer's name. And the other is signed by Jim Bailey. And the reason why I have, uh, two of them is because I got the Jim Balance one later on as a Christmas present.
Guido: Well, you can't have two men exactly knowing you. And your love of these, you can't have too many.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: One that we meet is, uh, hyena, who is saber, who also, uh, perfect one, um, in Syria, um, spiral Harley.
Guido: Yeah, which is a very strange one. I really want to know more about spiral Harley. Also, I love in the letters page, they talk about the dark clawels what if series action figures that are coming out. And I love that they put which for those of us who are collecting action figures, back in the day, this was always so true. The female figures were like one to ten in a case. So April O'Neill was really hard to get, and TELO was really hard to get. And all those characters. And so I love that they put that in here. They say that spiral Harley is coming, but there's only one Harley per ten dozen dark claws. So keep your eyes peeled.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: We also have blood crow, who is another example of amalgam double dipping, because we're revisiting too faced goblin. Why couldn't we have revisited scarecrow, whose ghost rider scarecrow and Batman scarecrow. But instead, this version is Batman, scarecrow and wolverine's. Uh, vampire villain bloodstream, blood, bloodstream. And then there's cyber croc.
Guido: Yeah, who's the cyber and cyber croc? Cyber is the wolverine. The guy with a metal arm.
Rob: Yes.
Guido: Um.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: I'm too fazed gobble, of course. My favorite just because it's just a top tier name. Omega beast. Who's omega real megabeast and kg beast.
Rob: I don't even know who KGB is.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: Yeah, picture Russian bain before baine. That's basically.
Guido: Uh, uh, and that is such a great lineup. And we see it when dark cause fighting in, like, the danger room equivalent, the fighting robots of it.
Rob: Um, my favorite other element of the cave is that Batman's, the giant coin that Batman always has in the cave is a Canadian penny.
Guido: Canadian nickel.
Rob: I left out loud when I did see that I was Canadian here.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: It does make me wonder, how did that come to be in this universe? And to dig it deeper, was there also a retcon in the amalgam universe? Because a lot of people think because this is the recon that too faced, is responsible for the giant coin. Originally, it was not. There was an old villain called the penny plunderer whose whole thing was pennies, and that's why he's got a giant penny. But they've reckoned that to be about two face, because two Faces, the more popular villain that has a coin motif.
Rob: More popular than penny plunder.
Guido: Yeah. Well, I guess this Canadian version of the villain in this recon is the nickel plunder. And I love that it has, like, a little woodchuck on it, which I'm assuming is probably what the Canadian nickel had on it at the time. They were probably drawing it for real there, which is fun.
Rob: Maybe before we move on, too, before you ask for other questions. I'm curious. We were talking about Kevin Conroy obviously super iconic voice, and we were saying you can't help but read Batman and read him. But I would say the same thing about Cal Dodd, who did Wolverine on that Xmen The Animated Series. So my question to the two of you would be like, do you hear Kevin's voice or do you hear Cal's voice when you're reading Dark Claw?
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: I think with Dark Claw, it alternates. It either alternates or in my case, since I wasn't so familiar with the Wolverine voice, uh, Kevin's voice just didn't play. And it just went to a default voice for Wolverine. Because even though his story is more Batman, his look is more Wolverine.
Guido: Mhm yeah. And I think I'd want both in my Amalgam universe. So Calda does the voice when he's in costume. And Kevin Cos, I love it when he's out of costume.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: Right?
Rob: That's right.
Guido: Yeah. Caldon problem solved. Yeah. So it's a great fun issue. I think we mentioned all the Easter eggs that are in the letters page two. Yeah. Dark Claw, the animated show on Fox Brothers Network every day at 04:00. Then they reference, as they do in everything else, like past issues and future issues of it. They talk about the Ten Nights of Omega a storyline earlier in the issue. There's the editorial comment to referencing that the flashback about racial apocalypse happened in the TV episode Legacy of Apocalypse. So they're just having so much fun with these mashups. I love it. They even then switch the names, which it took me a moment, I was like, oh, wait a second. They have them as Bruce Denny and Paul Tim are the co creators of the show. So they just take the two people who did create the Batman anime series and swap their names. So, yeah, so much fun to be had in this issue. I wish it went on.
Rob: Mhm uh, before we go on to the next segment, Guito, also, ah, you were wore Ethan's, the shirt Ethan's wearing at New York Comic Con, and you even were able to speak to famous people. You introduced famous comic book writers to Amalgam.
Guido: Yes, yes, that is true. We recap that on our Comic Con episode. Jonathan Hickman had not known about the Amalgam universe, but the editor of Three Moon, Three Worlds commented and liked that shirt that I had that we had made and shared with Ethan. Uh, and yeah, then we got to tell Jonathan Nickman all about the Amalgam universe.
Rob: If the Amalgam universe comes back, I think Guido and this podcast have had a hand in it. Just you're hearing it first right here.
Guido: Yes, if only.
Rob: Mhm well, let us move into the future and start to ponder some possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted? So, Guido, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?
Guido: So with, uh, Amalgam, as we've covered on past episodes. It's really hard to find something after that has a relationship to the Amalgam because they pretty much do a hard stop. Although recently the death, uh, of Spiderverse storyline has that awesome spider, uh, boy broken arm in panel. So there's little tiny Easter eggs like that. But because we wanted this episode and Ethan had proposed it as a tribute to Kevin Conroy, I thought, well, let's read the story that he wrote. It's the first and only comic that he wrote came out just months ago for DC Pride 2022, in which he tells his autobiographical story of his career and getting the part in Batman and what it meant to him and why playing this character for three decades was really important in his personal narrative.
Rob: Mhm yes. So this is DC Pride 2022, issue number one from June 2022. And this story is entitled kevin Conroy finding Batman.
Guido: And it's written by Kevin Conroy with inks, pencils and colors by Jay Bone, lettered by Ejitia Bidicar, and edited by Jessica Chen from that anthology. And it's, uh, just beautiful story. Yeah, it's going to be hard not to cry about this because it's hard to read it and not cry. Uh, it actually has an advisory before it starts in the book, saying that while the rest of the issue is meant to be a celebration and how important it is that this story is more about the challenges and the difficulty and it includes slurs. And that they want Pride to be a beautiful event. But not despite the dark times in our personal histories, but because of them. And uh, I love this intro and because of the strengths we found on the other side of those moments. And so we present you the story with all of Mr. Conroy's experiences and language intact. So I really appreciate that advisory and it is I don't know where to go with it. Uh, I guess we could summarize it before our impressions. Um, so Kevin Conroy starts as an actor. He has a rather challenging childhood. His father kills himself, he discovers the body and he becomes an actor at Juilliard and then goes on and is closeted. He actually only comes out in 2016, so he's closeted for most of his life. But he is not closeted in his personal life. And so he recounts getting a few jobs and difficulty. Uh, an actor who calls him a slur and how that makes him feel and how, uh, he didn't get a role that he was really close to getting. That would have been a big deal because the network found out about his personal life, found out he was gay and the agent is angry at him. And then the challenges with a, um, mentally ill brother and navigating that and how to support that. The challenges, of course, of being gay and losing so many friends and coworkers to aides in the then getting the call and going into the audition for Batman. And the way that Batman wearing a mask and having this different persona was something he could relate to on so many levels. And that's how he found his way into the character that he played for 30 years. And it's very powerful. So what did you all think?
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: Powerful is the key word. Powerful is definitely the key word. Um, one observation, art wise, I think is very interesting. And it might be just a coincidence, especially with the name. Um, but Dan, uh, parent of Archie comics did a, uh, Kevin Keller series, uh, called Life with Kevin. And it centers around Kevin Keller. And it's the exact same color scheme.
Rob: Yeah.
Guido: Mhm because it's all black and white lines with just some blue shading. That's the look of this story for those who haven't seen it.
Rob: M yeah. Even I think it was a really smart choice, art wise, to just to keep it, not just make it a photorealism of Kevin conroy the actor, either. Because that could maybe take you out of it and actually embrace this, um, more sketchy, almost quality to the art, too, because it allows you to actually have to listen to the story, take in the story more, I think, which works really well.
Guido: And the thing that really I don't know if it started it, I think this exists in a lot of these indie comics, but Fun Home is the most famous example that is the same. It's black and white with blue and gray shading. And that's it. And fun home, of course. Being Alison Becdell's. Also really tragic and touching and acclaimed autobiographical story, also including family with mental illness and being queer and coming out. So mhm there's something maybe about the influence of Fun Home on both of these projects.
Rob: Yeah. And I was thinking, reading this now, uh uh, he certainly has so much more weight in his passing and thinking. Also, he was probably ill when he was doing this, too. And the idea of him being taking this moment to look back on his life at that time and kind of recounter, which I think is a lot of times that we're often doing when we've had family members who have been very sick or people have been sick themselves. So it's great that DC also gave him this opportunity to reflect on this while he had that time.
Guido: Yeah. As soon as this came out, I said to Rob, okay, we need to go find Kevin at a con and get him to sign this issue. And, um, we did not have that opportunity. And actually, I keep watching to see it doesn't look like anyone had that opportunity. He did make some con appearances over the summer, but maybe people didn't bring this issue. I haven't seen this issue signed by him anywhere. And yeah, it's just amazing that he got to tell this story. The other thing that I think affects me so much about it is there's something that can't be removed from it about the presence of Batman in our world. Batman is one of the three most famous comic book characters in the world. We can say comfortably. And he's adopted by so many people, men in particular, as this hard kickass representation of a, uh, particular masculinity. Oftentimes I'd say to in a problematic way, batman is seen as like this take no BS. Like just be a man, and blah, blah, blah. And so to have someone who, for 30 years was playing this character in an iconic way that I don't think anyone would dispute, even if he's not your Batman, I think no one would dispute. Kevin Conroy did an amazing job as Batman. And talk about the way that he found himself into that character is through his queer identity and through his family's mental health and trauma inflicted upon him. I just find that so powerful. I want everyone who likes Batman to read this story, to reconsider who Batman is and what Batman can mean and stand for. He's not about violently disposing of criminals. Something else.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: Exactly.
Rob: Yeah. And even looking back onto the heterosexual relationship he has. Battalion the other issues that we read, there's always this conflict that is in Batman in wanting to have this normal life where he can have this relationship, but he can't have this relationship in those comics because the person he's in a relationship with is maybe also a villain and has these problems. And then you can certainly see that through the queer lens, as well as wanting to have these relationships, but not being able to, uh, because of, um, these stigmas, or not being wanting to come out or be out in your private life, but not being out in your public life. Which you can also see with Talia, right. Like, he's out as Batman to her, but he's not out to the world in that way. Mhm. And there could be even, um, reflections there as well.
Guido: The other connection that I think is in line with that and I'm just realizing visually, as I'm looking at these pages, is there is at the end of the Dark Claw adventures when Talia is holding him and he was dying, but is going to live, he says, I would have killed the person who killed my parents too. So they find this way of identifying with each other because of that trauma. And that's also how Kevin's story closes, is that he shows himself, like, holding his brother, holding his father, holding his friend who died of AIDS. And then, likens, that, obviously, to Bruce holding his parents in the alley, like, this way that this trauma and holding this person that mattered to you and losing them shapes who you are. And so it's interesting, that's another sort of echo I hadn't seen between Talia and Bruce's relationship and what Kevin's doing with Batman's relationship to his life. Yeah, it's an amazing story that everyone should read. I think DC made it available freely after Kevin's passing. Um, I don't know if that's still true or how to access it, but it's well worth tracking down for people to learn about this incredible person's story.
Rob: In general. I mean, you and I have talked about mosquito, but they've done some great stuff with these pride issues. Uh, have been really chock full of great stories. And I think also their queer representation on screen as well. Whether it's Batwoman in the TV show or Larry Trainer Negative Man on Doom Patrol. They're doing some really great representation.
Guido: Harley Quinn.
Rob: Harley Quinn is an animated area.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: I love that.
Rob: Yeah. Finding all different levels within what we were talking about here or like what they're saying with their editors note. They're finding the challenges, the struggles and the joy in that experience. So they're really showing, I think, the full gamut there.
Guido: Yeah. So, yeah, this has been a good tribute to Kevin Conroy and a great opportunity to see Dark Claw adventures. Something we want more of. And yeah. Thank you, Ethan, for bringing this to us.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: We welcome. And thank you for having me.
Guido: Of course. And thank you, dear Watchers, for listening.
Rob: I've been Guido and I have been Rob and Ethan. Tell people where they can find you and what you're up to in the many different shifting social media spaces these days.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: I am still mostly on Twitter at Makeminal. Anything else you can find me. I'm most likely make mine Amalgam. I'm make underscore mine underscore Amalgam on Instagram, and then I'm pretty much make mine Amalgam and everything else, um, like hive tumblr or whatever and all that other stuff. Post a couple of extra bigger pictures in there. Retweet or reblock or whatever you call it. A couple of Josie pictures here and there. But other than that, I am mostly on Twitter until it goes to Put, hopefully.
Rob: Do you have a custom dark loss?
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: I don't, but this morning I was posting about this Amazon, uh, five pack that has a shirtless wolverine.
Guido: Oh, yeah. And callisto and omega. I have that.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: Two of them were amalgamated. Ah. And then, um, Mastermind, who also is amalgamated in one of the Ex Patrol books, I think he's Mr. Mastermind. He's Mr. Mind.
Guido: Right.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: And he's mastermind. Uh, so I was saying, like, hey, someone should make me a custom cloth like outfit for this wolverine to make him into like an unmasked dark cloth. Yes, it's the perfect all right.
Rob: The holidays are coming.
Guido: I know. Someone should do that for you. I agree. I wish I could sew or mold, uh, with putty or something because I could make that.
Ethan of MakeMineAmalgam: I need that and I need the set.
Guido: All right, well, our reading list for today and links to those other episodes to check out when Ethan's joined us and the Amalgam comics we've covered are in the show notes. You can follow us on all social media at dear watchers.
Rob: Don't forget to leave a review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll be back soon with another trip to the multiverse.
Guido: In the meantime, in the words if you ought to keep pondering the possibilities.