Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

>> Rob: Much like a pubescent turtle crawling from the primordial ooze. We're back. Welcome to Tier Watchers, an omniversal comic book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

>> Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories, the worlds and the sewers that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey, in case you forgot, are me Guido. But I feel like I need some Renaissance name in there.

>> Rob: Yeah, you don't have one.

>> Guido: I can't think of any. I'm sure there was a Guido at the time, but yes, I don't know who they are. They're not as well known as these four.

>> Rob: No. Well, I'll be Rob Fael.

>> Guido: There you go. Works perfectly.

>> Rob: Exactly. And before we begin our trip through the multiverse, Geeta, what's new in our little section of this universe we call comics and pop culture?

>> Guido: We've been off for the longest break we've taken in almost five years of doing this show. And it's not like we are on vacation, it's just that we, truly could not find the time to do the show. So thank you to our listeners for returning to us this episode or for joining us newly this episode. We are still committed and still here. We might sometimes have gaps because we are busy doing other things.

>> Rob: Yes, we have a store which we've mentioned, we have mentioned the podcast before.

>> Guido: But we are in full operation. We have, we are renting movies that launched in December. So it really has been an intense fall and winter and we just needed to focus in on that. But that's not all. I mean, because people can also watch us.

>> Rob: Yes, we also have a video podcast, the Sleepover Countdown retro show, where we talk about things very much like the turtles. Yeah, we actually have already discussed the turtles on that other podcast we do.

>> Guido: We talk about toys and TV and movies and commercials and music and who knows what else we'll find ourselves talking about. So the. There is a lot happening, but we are still here committed to, what started it all. Dear watchers on our almost five year journey with all of you. And this is a really exciting and kind of iconic episode for us to do.

>> Rob: But if you're joining us for the first time or joining us after a bit of a break, I'll remind you we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today. We origins of the story, Exploring multiversity and pondering possibility. So thanks for coming along and remember.

>> Guido: We value your reviews, your follows on social media Earwatchers. You can also always find all of our episodes at, dearwatchers.com click episodes and you can search through them.

>> Rob: And with that, welcome to episode 174. And let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travels. Today's all alternate universe. And today we are answering the question, what if he man and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles teamed up to stop a, universe shattering crisis?

>> Guido: Wow, icons. Icons. I mean really of the 80s, of ah, all time. They're not. Yes, these are all time. Come on, it's the 2000TW. And they're still iconic. Even more so coming in 2026. So we, believe it or not, we have never covered the Turtles, which is shocking. Maybe we are waiting for Brad from comic book couples counseling to come on and do it with us, but we are starting without him, sadly. But hopefully he'll respect our coverage because he is the biggest Turtles fan that I think we know, I'm sure.

>> Rob: Well, he can come on and school us, I'm sure.

>> Guido: Exactly.

>> Rob: In a follow up, Turt references in what we're going to be talking.

>> Guido: They have a big multiversal comic coming out right now, in fact, that we just bought the first issue of. So we've never covered the Turtles. We'll get into their origin. We have, however, covered our other subject of today, he man, so many times. Thanks to me and my love of He Man. Our first coverage going into his origin in comics and outside of comics is episode 67. Go back and listen to that. And then we did some fun coverage in very similar to today's universe where he man and the Thundercats crossed over. And that was back on episode 93 with special guests.

>> Rob: I'd say that the Thundercats and He man are very much like you could see them existing in the same universe. Turtles is a little more of a crossover.

>> Guido: It was more of a stretch. And this earth was unique to the series. And let's see if we think it worked.

>> Rob: Well before we get into that guido, what is your background with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?

>> Guido: Wow. Yeah. So I, like everyone my age, was obsessed with the Turtles. There was no way that you could be a, whatever eight year old in the years of the Turtles and not be obsessed with them. My primary point of entry was the cartoon and the toys. So I actually didn't even read the comic until years later. But as a kid, I loved the toys, I loved the cartoon. It was probably second ranked after he man in my loves of Things. The toys were just so much fun. The characters were fun, all the accessories. It was clever. It was. It was funny. It was silly. The love probably faded a bit as I was a teenager and getting older. And then I would always go see their movies as they released. But the. The later ones, not the live action. The live action I was obsessed with, but the later ones and the reboots. And it just never stuck for me. And so I sort of moved on. And then when they started releasing some nice hardcover editions of the comics, I actually picked up the first few. This is maybe 15 years ago, and that was the first time I read the original comics. And we will talk about those today. So I will leave my love of Turtles there. What about you?

>> Rob: Well, like you, and as you said, like so many people our age, I was also a turtle obsessive growing up. I just. This just came to me as you were speaking. I think I had a turtle at a birthday party.

>> Guido: I did. I have the picture of Michelangelo. My mother got my costume. Michelangelo, are you taking my memory and putting it into your mind? Because you have seen that picture or.

>> Rob: Maybe I also had it. And I'm just. And I'm just remembering now.

>> Guido: I want to see the photographic evidence, because I had Michelangelo.

>> Rob: I don't know. Yeah. Is there photographic evidence? But I was a big Turtles fan, so of course the Animated series, and even probably more than the Animated series, the toy line that along with GI Joe, were the two big toy lines that I was collecting. And the brilliant thing about the Turtles line was just those molds and sculpts, and not one was like the other.

>> Guido: It was endless, endless, endless.

>> Rob: And you look at a lot of toy lines, like maybe even sometimes like he man, and there you can see it's like, okay, these were kind of taken from the same mold. But when you look at the Turtles, except for maybe the Turtles themselves, so many of the other characters could not be duplicated. And they were just so endlessly entertaining and bizarre as well. So I love those. I love the live action movies. And then probably like you, it was then like a steep drop off. Like GI Joe I still kept up with even as I got older, maybe because it felt a little bit more adult. But the Turtles I just stopped paying attention to until then, revisiting or visiting some of the nor modern movies, like the Seth Rogen produced one that came out a few years ago. And I had never even realized it was a comic. I think until probably like 15 years ago. Growing up, you just never even heard of the comic. And that was probably on, purpose. They probably didn't want the kids to read the comics, which we'll get into in a bit.

>> Guido: Well, I heard about it, but yes, it was more niche, I suspect. But I definitely remember it going up in value and being seen as like one of those early collector's items in the. The comics boom of the 90s, for sure. Especially because it was self published and so, so in demand at the time. So, yeah, we both had a deep love and are now returning to them. So let's find out how that works.

>> Rob: Yeah, let's descend into our turtle lair, its origins of the story. Right now on this very show, you're gonna get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago. So let's start where it all began. Guido. With the comic book.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah. So we read Teenage Mutant Ninja turtles number one, and that is from 1984 by Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, self published by what they called Mirage Studios, the company that they formed. And this kicks it off. Not only is it the first issue, but it gives the origin. So right out, right out of the gate, the whole concept is here. So as we know before we get into our reading of it, this is an attempt almost at, ah, I guess probably the right word is a pastiche, right? It's not a parody, it's not an homage. So I guess it's a bit of a pastiche of a few existing properties. Daredevil being the most obvious one, but with some influence from other. You saw New, Mutants was part of the influence.

>> Rob: New Mutants, Cerebus and, Frank Miller's Ronin were the other ones as well.

>> Guido: So a lot of interesting things converge to make for what should be a pretty wild. Doesn't really work concept. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, like, quite literally all four of those words are important to who they are and their origin. But they've stuck around. It's been. It's been, over 40 years since this comic debuted. This comic is definitely one of the most sought after. So let's start with this comic and the origin. What did you think? Since you had never read it, you probably didn't even know it was like, like hand drawn, black and white. Did you know any of that?

>> Rob: I didn't know that much because I know one of the things that they added for the cartoon, which was, of course, I think a very wise decision, was the color different. Because aside from the weapons here, you don't know which turtle is which, and their personalities are not fully formed. You don't really know, Michelangelo is not like, the fun one yet in this first issue, but I thought it was. It was quite striking in that way. And it was really had this way of balancing, not for kids, because a lot of people are getting killed in it, but having this kind of wackiness. And then also the comics with an X, like, that kind of underground feel, but not as, like, serious or not as dirty.

>> Guido: No. I like the line that it holds there, that it is definitely meant for adult readers. There's no doubt about that, but it's not. There's. Sure, there's a woman who's fridged in it, but she's. There's not sexual violence. She's not half naked. there's not cursing in it. So. I like the line that they tow. Probably. I don't know, maybe that's just who Eastman and Laird are, or maybe it has something to do with being concerned with censors or something. But I'm glad that they tow that line because I think it opens the door to a slightly more adult but totally appropriate version of the characters. I. Reading this again today reminded me of how I felt 15 years ago when I read it, which I was like, whoa, I want to go read every single one of the hundreds of issues of this book. It's so good. It's so good. It. The pace. It's like 40 pages, so it's a bit longer. The pace it moves at a clip. The art is awesome. The. The panel breakdowns are awesome. And while it could run the risk of being a Claremontian, clearly inspired by Claremont and his work, along with Frank Miller, it could run the risk of being weighted down by Raphael's narration. It doesn't. It works. I think the. The narration, the sort of existential commentary works. It's kind of funny. Like, it's clear they. They know what they're doing, but, like, the best kind of camp that you and I appreciate, it's sincere. It's not making fun of itself too much. Right. Because then you wouldn't enjoy it. It actually has, like, an authenticity to it. So I just think it works on so many levels. I loved it.

>> Rob: Yeah. And I was surprised by how much of the origin story they really got into. This was definitely one, maybe that Eastman and Lair felt, okay, given this crazy concept. Let's just lay out the whole origin here, because sometimes you get that in a trickle as the story goes on. But this is just definitely much more of, like, origin dump. And I was a bit surprised at seeing some of the differentiations, because of course, I know it more from the Animated Series. So I had no idea. And actually this is referenced in the main comic that we're gonna discuss later today. But I had no idea about the love triangle aspect that there's that involved, and that Splinter's human master was in love with this woman. And then Shredder's older brother was also in love with this older woman. And then Splinter Yoshi kills that person, and then Shredder's takes revenge. And that's all new because I think a lot of those aspects were kind of amalgamated into just the core characters. Like, you don't have the brother character in the Animated Series, for example.

>> Guido: See, I knew a lot of that. I don't know why. I guess because I read this or it just existed because I was actually thinking kind of a little contradictory. I was thinking how adherent, how consistent their origin has been over the years, which you can't even say about, like, the X Men. I mean, there's. You can't say, even though Marvel's continuity hasn't rebooted, there are variations that are introduced or retcons that are introduced. And yet this is so clear from the very beginning and doesn't change that much, even to the point where, like. And I could only picture that awful, hilarious scene in the movie, but the point where, like, Splinter is the rat. Splinter is not the man turned into the rat. It's the rat. And so in this, like, you have the rat practicing the martial arts moves while his master's doing them, which is a hilarious scene in the movie. But I was thinking, wow, the fact that they took that and put that in the movie because it's so ridiculous, is amazing to me. And you're right, the series we read today references a lot of this. So it's just striking to me that 40 plus years on, many of these details, if not most of them, are consistent, and that's pretty cool.

>> Rob: But in some versions, isn't Splinter the man Yoshi? He's been mutated.

>> Guido: I don't know. I don't think so.

>> Rob: I believe. Oh, I thought that I only know this version series or maybe in, like, the Toy continuity? I believe it is, but I could be wrong.

>> Guido: Yeah, I think you might be wrong. Because why would the movie then choose the comic book version? Yes, the movie was coming at the height.

>> Rob: So you can see some of the iconography of this comic actually playing out a bit more in the movie in some ways than in the Animated Series. And maybe because the movie is also almost done, not that it's dark because it's obviously.

>> Guido: Yeah.

>> Rob: But it's visually darkness in the visualness, in the visuals that.

>> Guido: Well, and it has that edge. The series doesn't get that edge. The movie does have that edge because, like, Raphael leaves and he's sort of down on himself and like, all of that came straight out of the comic, so. And obviously, again, that's been consistent with the rumors that there was going to be that Raphael Ronan project, although then they scrapped it, sadly. So, yeah, you're right that this lives a little bit more in the movie and the live action other than the coming out of their shells tour the live action versions of the Turtles more than the cartoon. But again, it's striking to me just how much is there in that very first issue that we know and love. And it's great.

>> Rob: And you don't have Krang and Dimension X here. I know, they are introduced.

>> Guido: Yeah. Or April o' Neil or Casey Jones. I mean, yes, you're missing a lot of the basics here, but even not.

>> Rob: Having, I think this whole alien element, ultra dimensional element keeps it more grounded in reality. And that was something also that the live. At least the first two live action movies were also doing.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, I don't know about the ooze, but.

>> Rob: Yeah, well, the ooze is in it from the beginning. Otherwise you don't get the Turtles.

>> Guido: Well, let's jump way ahead to the next thing that we looked at.

>> Rob: Yes, this is Teenage Mutant M Ninja Turtles, the 2013 TV series. This is specifically season three, episode 19, Turtles in Time. Not to be confused with the classic arcade game.

>> Guido: Or the third movie.

>> Rob: Or the third movie.

>> Guido: Yes. I was thinking, like, that's. There's a lot of callbacks happening in this, although the episode itself doesn't have too many of the callbacks. So this is the 2012-2017 TV series and it is the. I think it's the third reboot of the TV show. Although ultimately, they try to, like, Retcon a lot of them together. So this is the Nickelodeon CGI series. This episode aired in August of 2016 and was written by Randolph Heard and directed by Michael Chang. And why don't you give a quick summary and then I'll share why we watched it.

>> Rob: Sure. So the Turtles get lost in time with Apprentice Time Master Renet battling the villainous Savante Romero.

>> Guido: I really can't.

>> Rob: With them across different eras like Camelot and the Middle Ages, before ending up in an altered future Japan, setting up the rest of an epic time Travel arc. And I'll just point out that Renet and Savante Romero appeared in the 2003 TV series. They also appeared in a video game. They've had action figures. And the. I did look this up. Guido, the bizarrely named Savante Romero is named for. Do you know?

>> Guido: No, not at all. I'm assuming George, but George Romero and.

>> Rob: Tom Savini, the master makeup artist. So that's where the name is.

>> Guido: It's weird because he's not, like, he has nothing to do with horror movies. So it's very strange about that that they said, that. So, Yeah. So Renette Tilly, she has an important role to play in the comic that we read for our alternate universe today. So we wanted to read or see her debut and her origin here. And we also didn't. Neither of us have really watched much of this series. I watched a little bit. When this series crosses over, actually to the original series, it's a really cool arc, but neither of us have watched this. So what do you think of this episode?

>> Rob: Well, the writing is actually quite fun, and there's lots of little in jokes. In fact, I was seeing Guido. When they end up in Camelot, the three knights, they encounter one, they sound a lot like Monty Python knights, but their names are John, Paul, and George, as in Three Beatles. So they have, like, nice, fun jokes for adults. The only issue with it, which is, of course, an issue with this entire series, is it's almost painful to watch on the eyes with this cgi. It, like, shows like Reboot, which came out decade earlier, look much better, I feel like, than this CGI does.

>> Guido: Yeah, I agree. I don't know why. I don't know why that is. I don't know if it was budget or choice or what the deal with it is, but it's hard because this was so great and so much fun, but. And the voice acting's great. it's all there.

>> Rob: You got Seth Green as Leonardo. You have Sean Astin as Donatello. And then what's fun is you actually have Rob Paulson. Oh, Rob Paulson is Donatello on the original series, Rob Paulson was Raphael. So he's actually switched turtles.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it's a lot of fun. And Renette is a fun character. Like you said, she had debuted in the comics. This is actually, though, her first animated series debut, so you're mistaken about 2003, but she had been in the comics before this. But we wanted to see her on screen, and she's a fun character. It's sort of a good twist to the Uatu sort of character, the Monitor character. These characters exist in every canon, if you will. But she's, I think, just fun. Having this, like, young apprentice who gets herself into trouble with Lord Simultaneous is a fun setup that I think is there from the beginning of the Eastman and Laird comics, but certainly carries over here and into the books we read. Yeah.

>> Rob: And she also functions as a love interest of sorts with Michelangelo. It's actually set up kind of early on that some of the other turtles have love interests, but she. She. He does not. Although she doesn't quite return the love interest that M has, which is fun because it makes her. It gives her a bit more agency in that way.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah. And she has a great character design too, which is also there from the beginning in the comics. But just these clocks on this cool outfit. It's very. It's very turtles in that. It's very silly, but also fun. It tells you exactly who the character is, but is also over the top. All that stuff that you and I and so many people fell in love with in the Playmates toys is there in her design. I don't think she had a Playmates toy. I'm sure they've made a toy of her since. But she did not have an original.

>> Rob: In the Eastman and Lair run. I guess it's toys branded as, like Eastman and Lair's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Both her and some did have.

>> Guido: Well, that's the later releases. That's, not the original.

>> Rob: But you could totally see just as you.

>> Guido: You.

>> Rob: As you just mentioned, like, her color scheme just actually does scream the original Playmates run.

>> Guido: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of fun getting to know her. But let's see what. What hijinks ensue.

>> Rob: Yes. Let's mutate into our next segment. It's exploring multiversity.

>> Guido: I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if?

>> Rob: And we are asking the question, what if he man and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles teamed up to stop a universe shattering crisis? This is, of course, Turtles of Grayskull, issues number one through four from Dark Horse.

>> Guido: Yes. And this series is just from the fall of 2024. So the first issue is September 2024 and they continue on from there. So, very recent iteration. It's written by Tim Seeley, who's the sort of house he man writer recently announced as the ongoing he man comic writer. Art by Freddie Williams ii. He's sort of the house turtles and crossover artist we've Met him already on some. The He Man Thundercats, The he man injustice. He's done a few of those things. Colors are by Andrew Dollhouse, letters are by and World Design. And this series is edited by Brett Israel. And so it's hard to summarize this for people who haven't read it, but let's give an attempt at a very brief summary in case people haven't read it. Spoilers abound. So you meet Renet and. Or you see Renet, and she is watching what turns out to be another universe that goes away in which the Turtles and He man have crossed over, and Skeletor and Krang are using the ooze and Skeletor's magic together, and by doing so, create this horrible purple he man who is evil. And she realizes she needs to stop this from happening, which kicks off the whole storyline, and she needs to undo the time knot that will happen in her. In her thinking if he man and the Turtles meet each other. But then in the prime reality, they have started to meet each other because they're at an intergalactic, fighting arena, like, sort of, What was that called in ancient Rome? Gladiator Combat.

>> Rob: Gladiators, yeah.

>> Guido: And so I'll pause there. What do you think of the setup and how do you enjoy so far? I mean, we get some key figures in the gladiator arena, which I liked to see.

>> Rob: Yes, Well, I think I liked how it started. Well, this is one of those cases where they definitely, I think, wanted to please the fans right away by showing you all of these classic characters.

>> Guido: There is a lot of fan service throughout this, for sure.

>> Rob: And classic characters in new designs, which, of course, we as fans love as well.

>> Guido: So I think Michelangelo wearing a page boy wig and commenting on it, which I love.

>> Rob: Krang isn't in, like, a robot, but actually in kind of like a more bio, like an actual monster like that that the. His body is living in. And, yeah, kind of lead it up there because, like, then, as you said, like, we're kind of broken away from this kind of core world as we kind of get into the actual plot of the comic.

>> Guido: Yeah, so it does have lots of fun cameos and designs. But, of course, then we have the Triceraton in the Gladiator Combat. So he man versus the Triceraton, which was a figure we all had. Of course, he's upstairs. There's probably two of them upstairs. So it's just a fun setup and crossover there. And so as the plot progresses, Renet is again thinking that she needs to keep he man and the turtles separate in order to prevent what she sees as this time not from happening. So in order to do that, she sends he man to Earth and the turtles to Eternia, and they decide to trade places, if you will, to stay separated. And, that's kind of fun. Fish out of water for both of them. Did you enjoy that part of the plot setup?

>> Rob: I enjoyed them being sent to their different worlds, because I think that is a fun idea. And having he man in New York in the sewers, it's fun, too, because.

>> Guido: He Man, I know you have a big butt there, but I want to say what I like before you critique it. In putting he man on Earth, he can be really reflective about seeing his mom. His mom is from Earth. And he starts to imagine, like, well, what if my mom had never left this planet and left this city, and I wouldn't exist? And so it's fun that he's, like, thinking about Queen Marlena's past and then the turtles, their reflective experience of being on Eternia. Ah. Is what would it be like if we were on this world where no one cares that we're turtles? Because there's all these weird creatures, and everyone's accustomed to talking to odd creatures, which, of course, are all the masters of the universe that we know and love. So I think that's a really fun aspect of their Earth swapping. But I know that you are challenged slightly.

>> Rob: I think both of those are really good, interesting ideas. I wish both of them had had. Maybe because these ch just four issues had a little bit more room to explore them. I think if this had been a longer series or I'm picturing it in my world, like, one of those Netflix series that sometimes is two episodes too long, but sometimes with those kind of extra episodes, you could have the room where, oh, what do the turtles experience? Kind of walking around and seeing that there's other, like, lizard men and stuff like that, and not feeling like they're freaks or need to be the shadows. And same thing with he man. Like, if he was able to become Adam and just, like, wander around Times Square, like, what would that world be? I really liked the idea that was introduced here with both of them, But I wish there had been much more time spent on it because it felt a little bit kind of crammed in. Because, of course, that central idea comes back as kind of the deus s machina of the whole book.

>> Guido: Yeah, I agree with the needing room to breathe. I'm actually really surprised. It was four issues I don't know if that was a financial thing or if either Tim Seely or Freddie Williams didn't have the time to go further or what. There are four very dense issues, which I think if. If both of us have a, complaint, it's that, like, they needed a little. Either they needed a little editing for concision, or they needed a little room to breathe so that you could pace the plot out a little better and the exposition out a little better. But I am very surprised that these are four issues.

>> Rob: I think that's like the but that you referenced too. It's like, I love the idea of separating them and sending them to different worlds. I think it gets bogged down a bit with the kind of gobbledygook in between m. Like if Renet had just said, okay, we have to keep them separate. Because I know that. Yes, well, I guess she kind of says this because that's what's gonna happen. But I think, like, there's way too much talking about, like, they can' is so much talking. Or then like, the turtles can't see man at Arms, but then they wound up talking to man at Arms. And like. And even Donatello says, like, well, we used up that chance where I can interact with them, but like, they continue to interact. He man then trains with Splinter for like two weeks. So, like, why is that not disrupting the timeline?

>> Guido: And well, we find out in the end that. But we find there's an explanation in the story for that. I've already also given it to you off recording when you were struggling with this, because it turns out that in fact, whereas Renet thought that the time knot occurred because of something in the past with Shredder and maybe Shredder meeting Skeletor. So she's first, she's concerned that the time knot occurs just from he man and the turtles interacting. But then she realizes there's this thing in the past. Somehow Skeletor and Shredder have interacted in the past. But then the big reveal at the end of issue three is that this was not the case. In fact, it was, another character who we've met at this point, we didn't know who he was. And he was the one who was sort of getting Shredder to connect to Skeletor and brokering this whole thing. And it turns out it is Ninjor, the He man character. Ninjor.

>> Rob: And this he man character that nobody knows.

>> Guido: That is a lie. No, I mean, yes, again, Tim Seeley, the double edged sword of being A huge he man fan is that.

>> Rob: He even said to me, what did you think of that reveal? It was like, I had no idea who it is.

>> Guido: Well, ninja's a tricky character, in part because he is not on the cartoon. He was in the later waves of toys. And so he's not. Not well known for that reason, I guess. But what's really cool here is. So in the story, I guess we'll finish with a summary, and then I'll tell you what I think is cool. So it turns out that Ninjor has put himself. He can travel through time and worlds. And he goes there to set this all up, essentially.

>> Rob: Well, because he was slighted by both Shredder in the past and then by Skeletor. So because he was slighted by both of them, he's basically taking revenge on not only them, but, like, their students and their worlds as well.

>> Guido: So in the main world, he ends up getting the magically infused mutagen onto He Man. And of course, at this point, you know, the sorceress gets April the powers of Grayskull. So April becomes the sorceress. Like, there's all sorts of cool stuff happening in this big final battle, but the big thing is that Splinter gets he man to realize, like, that he can draw upon the strength of Adam and his humanity, and that stops, him from being the purple Hulk of the mut. The purple mutagen Hulk, essentially. And April fights Ninjor and gets him to realize that his greatest enemy is his own fear. And, in fact, a very cool. We've seen this plot so many places, I can't even think where he has gone through time and killed the other versions of himself in all the other worlds. And that's. He did it to train himself. But she gets him to realize he also did it because he just hates himself. And that's where a lot of his villainy comes in, which is a very, like, Turtles he man moral of, Like, you could see in the cartoon, you wouldn't see a character killing off versions of themselves, but you could see that moral, like, you know, self hatred is what made you a villain. And I like that. And it's fun. And so everyone gets back to their own, dimensions. Ninjor gets imprisoned in the nexus of all realities. And Renet is like, okay, now if I sever this time strand, they'll forget that this happened, which is a good way of restoring canon. But they'll remember the feelings and the M messages and the lessons that they learned. And she does leave Like, a little possibility. And there's a splash page at the end that, like, there is a thread where these worlds have combined, but she's leaving the prime canon separated. So that's the plot overall, before I get more into Ninjor, why don't we do some general impressions there at the end with that turn of events?

>> Rob: Well, like I think you said, I think it does come together in the end. It does, but I think there's a little bit of a. Kind of a rocky road. And I mean, it's not to say I didn't enjoy it, but I think going back to what we were saying earlier, if there had been more room to breathe in here, which is often what we say about these abbreviated series, I think you could have it just. Just flow a bit better. Like, even. Just as you just mentioned, Ninja going back to eliminate his former selves. Like, I don't even fully remember that beat because I think it's kind of crammed into what it is.

>> Guido: And it's just exposition, too. Yeah, all.

>> Rob: Yeah. And at the end, it is one of those things of, like, everything thrown against the wall, because now we have all of our characters for the first time, really together in the world, including our villains, which I was. These are Shredder, you know, Krang and Skeletor are all such great villains. It's a little bit of, like, anticipation waiting for them to finally all be in the room together, which we get a lot of in the fourth and final issue. But we, you know, but at, the. Ultimately, they're not even our. Our main villains. Quite the scratching that itch that I want.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree with those complaints. And again, I think an editor or more room would have helped it. I'm. I'm a big fan of what Tim Seeley's trying to do. I think the execution sometimes isn't my favorite. It, needs a little refinement to me, I think. But what I like here is that it does lock into place. And some of it is that Ninjor. And this is not. I mean, obviously I knew who Ninjor was, but. But I had to look up Ninjora's backstory because he's not an animated character. And what's cool is Tim Seeley's using that. So he was pulled out of an Earth from Skeletor and dropped into the world. And Skeletor, is planning to have him kill all of the Masters of the Universe so that he man is by himself and no longer has help fighting his battles. But what it turns out is that Skeletor, I mean, Ninjor, is secretly working for Horde prime and trying to learn Skeletor's weaknesses through this. So it's just a cool use of this character that keeps very faithful to the canon of this character, even though that canon comes from, like, the back of toy cards and mini comics. Like, there isn't anywhere else that this canon comes from. But it's a cool use of that canon, I'd say.

>> Rob: And it does feel like Tim, being such a huge fan of this, just saw this and is like, wait, there's a ninja from another dimension. Could he been from the Turtles dimension? And then kind of works the whole rest of the story back. I mean, maybe that's not how he came up with it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

>> Guido: Yeah, I agree. The other thing I think this book does well, that we. We actually just bought one yesterday. It sets up some of the toys well, which is of course, what people often say derisively, which is annoying about the original he man cartoon, that it was set up as a toy commercial, essentially. And this does the same thing we just yesterday bought in a comic store, the April o' Neill Sorceress. And that is directly from these pages. One of the first toys, or maybe the first toy they released in this Turtles of Grayskull line was the, like, oozed out Skeletor. So they're just doing a fun job of hitting that vertical marketing itch, if you will.

>> Rob: I don't mind at all. And I know Freddie Williams art is great throughout all of this, and it really does look like the classic toys. There's nods to, like the 80s kind of animation as well, but it looks modern. I think it's definitely one of the highlights of.

>> Guido: Yeah, I think it's funny because I remember critiquing it when we read the Thundercats. I'm not. I'm, not generally a fan of. Of this sort of sketchy style, but I think a few things a. I think his art became increasingly cartoony. Either that's through his own growth as an artist, or it's by design here. He wanted it to be cartoony, but I think it works really well here. I agree. I think this is a great series to show off his art and how it fits. So before we move on, do you want to go back to this earth?

>> Rob: I. I think it. It fulfilled for me what it needs to because.

>> Guido: What, what, what?

>> Rob: One of the things that could be in another alternate Universe. Right. Is, I think, Splinter getting the Sword of Power. I think that's one of the things there.

>> Guido: Yeah. You see. Yes. Splinter's raising the Sword of Power in one of the worlds. You see Hordak, which, of course is one of the big figures. The other one that I have sitting right above my head right now.

>> Rob: You.

>> Guido: See some of my favorite characters, Tyrantosaurus and the dinosaurs from Pre Eternia. And so that is really cool because there's so many dinosaurs involved with the Turtles. So, yeah, you see a bunch of glimpses into what could be in a world where these two continue to combine. There's then a very Mad Max looking He man and Turtles together. So, yeah, I think there's so much potential to keep going with this crossover. I think even what you were saying, wanting to see, like, more of the showdown with the classic villains, like, sure, go back there and let's do it. Let's find a reason to keep telling stories. With these two combined, I won't be surprised if we get another crossover. They're on. Turtles. Power Rangers, Volume three. Let's go. We can get Turtles He Now Volume two going.

>> Rob: Oh, gosh.

>> Guido: Yeah.

>> Rob: Well, maybe when the movie comes out, it will inspire them.

>> Guido: Uh-huh. We'll see.

>> Rob: Well, let us wrap up by pondering some possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted? Averted.

>> Guido: Averted.

>> Rob: So, Guido, what are we talking about for pondering possibilities?

>> Guido: Well, let's just talk mashups. I mean, I think we did this with he man once already now, years ago when we started doing some he man crossovers. But let's talk. Who do we want to see a crossover with from both of these properties? So, in addition to Turtles of Grayskull Volume 2, please, someone make that happen. What do we want to see in the future of he Man's crossovers and Turtles crossovers? So which one do you want to start with?

>> Rob: Well, I guess we'll start with he man, because you probably have some ideas and it'll give me a chance to think.

>> Guido: I mean, I want to see he man crossover with anyone, everyone. I want to see every crossover there is to be seen. So we've had Thundercats, we've had dc, we've had Turtles. I think those are the three big comic ones. I want to see X Men and Marvel, without a doubt. I want to see that. I want he man and the Masters of the Universe and the X Men to figure something out together.

>> Rob: Yeah. What would be interesting is doing something maybe, like, with, the Savage Land and like, KHAZAR Sure.

>> Guido: Yeah. Have he man and. Yeah. Or have the door to Eternia be there. I don't care how you do it. I just want to see these characters interact because they all have a lot of quirky, unique, distinct characterizations.

>> Rob: There's something also a little like Eternals connection there as well. Or the New gods over in D.C. as, well. So I could see either of those because those go more for less the barbarian aspect and more for like the science fiction. Everyone's got a unique power where you live forever kind of aspect.

>> Guido: Well, and it's sort of. Some of those tend to do what he man does in terms of mixing the sword and sorcery with the sci fi technology, weaponry. So I think that's why they might feel akin. So definitely Marvel is a big one. I'd love to see he man cross over with. Do you think of anything you'd want to see he man crossover with?

>> Rob: No. Well, yeah, I just think the ones we mentioned or some of the D.C. characters. I mean, he's never actually crossed paths with Superman, I believe, right?

>> Guido: No, that was his debut issue.

>> Rob: Oh, that was his debut.

>> Guido: His debut issue, which we covered on this show was he man and Superman. They then met again in the Injustice crossover. It has been so long. But my gosh. Well, you were a fan of New Adventures of HE man. So I wonder if, that feels like it's ripe for like a Star wars crossover or something or an alien crossover or any of the space based properties could cross over with New adventures.

>> Rob: Mm, yeah, I like that too. I think that definitely is something that we could see. Yeah.

>> Guido: And what about the Turtles?

>> Rob: Turtles? Well, I think the one main one comes to mind for me because of course, going back to what I said earlier, these were the two ones. Two lines that I really collected would be GI Joe for. For one thing, the villains in GI Joe have the Terror Drome and the villains in Turtles have the Technodrome.

>> Guido: They can finally figure out why that is.

>> Rob: Yes, A conn. Maybe there's even a way to hinge back at the Cobra Law and things like that that are hinted at or that are explored in the G.I. joe, the movie, where Cobra actually comes from this kind of ancient civilization that lives on Earth and in the ice caps and all this gobbledygook. But it certainly feels like that Cobra Law world is very akin to Snake Mountain and things, Things like that, so.

>> Guido: But you were talking about the Turtles mashup.

>> Rob: Oh, that's.

>> Guido: Now you want He Man, Turtles and GI Joe to be in one mega mashup. Crossover to end all crossovers.

>> Rob: Well, I guess I could see it from being from, like, Dimension X as well. So it's all the. All those. All those things.

>> Guido: So, yeah, I could see those, too. I could definitely see those.

>> Rob: And you've got ninjas in GI Joe, so you've got Snake Eyes. You've got Storm Shadow. Like, that is a really big part of the GI Joe world. So having those, you could totally see Snake Eyes, fighting Shredder, like, easily.

>> Guido: Yeah. Yeah, that would be fun. I don't know who I want the Turtles to cross over with. I mean, I want the X Men to cross over with everyone. So I'd say the X Men. I don't know if the Turtles have done any DC or Marvel crossing over, to be honest. I would think they have, and someone will have to correct us. But I can't think of a iconic storyline in the same way that he man has had these miniseries doing it. So I think any of the comic, the two major superheroes would be good for the Turtles to cross over with. But I think Turtles and Power Rangers make a lot of sense. I'm not a huge Power Rangers fan, but I was a fan as a young person, so I think they make a lot of sense, and I can see why that has gotten three volumes already.

>> Rob: Yeah. I think one of the hurdles you have with the Turtles that you don't necessarily have with Masters is what Tim Seely does explore really well in this book is that they are walking, talking.

>> Guido: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Right. You have to deal with that fact that you stick them.

>> Rob: you have to deal with that. And even in, say, DC with Batman, they would feel like out of place. So they don't in Motu World, and you'd have to. And they don't really in M. Power Rangers world because we have also all these other creatures that look a lot like Bebop and Rocksteady, like that the Power Rangers are facing off.

>> Guido: Yeah. That are like just animals that have been turned into humans and all that kind of storytelling. So. Yeah. Well, I'm sure we'll see plenty more mashups with all of these characters. Luckily, they're both owned by people, unlike Marvel and dc, who like to license out the rights, who like to do this kind of thing. So I think that we'll see lots of crossing over from these characters now.

>> Rob: That we've seen all the crossing over from Marvel and dc, which we've covered.

>> Guido: Recently, but only with each other. Well, D.C. goes out of the box. Even look at DCKO has like the boys and all these other things coming into it.

>> Rob: That's true.

>> Guido: Yeah. So DC and Warner clearly don't care quite as much, but Marvel and DC are, Marvel and Disney are much stricter and frustratingly so. So we don't see quite as many other than their own properties like Predator and Alien and all that stuff now. Yeah.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: All right. Well, that is a wrap on our return episode. Dear Watchers, thank you for listening. I have been Guido, the renaissance character, not Guido.

>> Rob: And I have been Rob Fiel.

>> Guido: The reading list is in the show notes. Follow us on social media earwatchers or go to Dear Watchers.com and leave us.

>> Rob: A five star review wherever you listen. We'll be back soon. Hopefully not as long as we were last time with another trip through the multiverse.

>> Guido: Keep pondering the possibilities.