Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Rob: Welcome to Dear Watchers, a comic book omniverse podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.
Guido: We are traveling through the storylines before and after that inspired or took inspiration from this week's amazing alternate universe. And your watchers on this journey are.
Rob: Me Kiddo and Me Robertson, because my father's name was Robert Haha.
Guido: Wow, that works.
Rob: Uh, and we have a very special guest member of the Council of Watchers, elliot of Elliot Comic Art on Twitter. Hi, Elliot.
Elliot: Hello, Tisai. Elliotteis, the female version.
Rob: I love it. And Elliot, we were just doing the math before we started. And just like on SNL, I think you are officially joined our five timers club as a guest.
Elliot: Yes.
Rob: I'm ready to get you a jacket.
Elliot: Yes, my gold jacket. I can't wait. Awesome to be back on. Thank you both for having me.
Rob: Of course. And with three children, I know it's very difficult, so thank you. You've locked yourself in a secluded, undisclosed location to record this podcast.
Elliot: I told them I'm in the Odin sleep and we need to pray for the Norse gods and not be interrupted during this time.
Rob: And before we dive into the episode, Ellie, can you tell the people a little bit more about your art and fandom and where they can find you?
Elliot: Sure. I've been a Marvel Comics fan and, uh, DC fan since Superman, but been a comic book fan for a long time, ever since the late 80s, early ninety s. And I've drawn my whole life. And a couple of years ago, just started doing some drawings and putting them up on Twitter. And now I've been doing a lot of podcast art and commissions and having a really great time with it. I love connecting with different people over on Twitter and online.
Rob: You've done weddings. That's exciting.
Elliot: Yeah, there's a wedding coming up in August. They're blowing up. I did a Spider Man homage wedding cover, and they're going to blow it up and have it in the wedding venue. I think they're getting married on August 3, so I'm really excited to see the pictures of that. The groom and bride said they'd send me pictures from the wedding after it's done. Pretty cool.
Rob: So exciting. Next, you'll have to do a divorce.
Elliot: There are plenty of those in the combat.
Guido: Yeah, I'm trying to think what the most famous superhero divorce would be. I don't know. It's hard to tell.
Elliot: Yeah, it's often involving, like, memory loss and things like that.
Guido: Exactly.
Elliot: Uh.
Rob: That is very exciting. So, uh, lots of new going on in your world, Elliot? Gito. What's new in our world?
Guido: I don't think I have much to share. That's new. I think we should just get this episode underway. We passed our anniversary, and we have a really special episode coming. And we'll ask you again, like we did last week, please tell two people about us so we can keep growing our listeners. This episode and this second year, but otherwise, that's it, nothing new.
Rob: Well, if you are joining this multiverse for the first time, we have a after a quick summary of our alternate Earth, we are visiting origins of the story, discovering what inspired this other reality. Then we're moving to exploring multiversity, diving deeper into our alternate universe, and we'll conclude with pondering possibilities, examining the impact and what's followed or what's coming in the future. So, with that, dear Watchers, welcome to episode 53. And let's check out what's happening in the multiverse with today's alternate universe. And today we are discussing one of the big granddaddy grandmama of what ifs and one of the super famous ones, which, of course, has come to life now also in the MCU in one way or another and in future Marvel past, uh, Marvel Comics. And that is, of course, what if Jane Foster had found the Hammer of Thor?
Guido: So I think we should give a warning now, we're not going to spoil the movie until the end of the episode, and we'll give fair warnings. So we are only living with the stories in comics for the time being. And so let's start with Earth Seven Eight Eight, which is our what if earth what if Jane Foster had found the Hammer of Thor? Is Earth Seven Eight Eight a real brief summary of a real dense issue. Jane accompanies Donald from the trip he's on and journey into mystery 83, the first Thor. Of course. Jane finds the cane in the cave that turns her into Thor. Mjolnir's inscription still says he on it note, and she starts going by Thor dish. She goes on a lot of adventures, fighting Loki, meeting the jerk Odin, fighting Radioactive Man and Lava Man and Cobra. She joins the Avengers. Meanwhile, Siff finds Donald Blake. They get married. Odin beats the mango and thus demands Mjolnir be returned to him so he can give it to Donald Blake. So Donald Blake can become his son Thor, but Odin makes Jane a goddess, and they get married. So she becomes the Queen of Asgard. And that is Earth 788, which we have a lot to dig into there. But that's our quick summary.
Rob: Yes. And of course, we've talked about Thor a bit on the podcast before, not too much. And we really haven't talked too much about Jane Foster, who, of course, really is our protagonist today. So, Elliot, you are our special guest. So let's start with you. What is your background with Thor and Nurseturned Thor? Jane Foster.
Elliot: My, uh, background. So I've been a Marvel comics fan, but never read any of the Thor comics until J. Michael Strasinsky took over. Thor? And I think that's around the time or a little bit before when the MCU is getting started, which reignited my comic book collecting. And so I loved his run, I loved his work on Spiderman and got into Thor through that and then have been reading thor? I think I can't remember. You guys might know guido, you might remember who picked up Thor after J. Michael Strazzynski. Do you remember?
Guido: Is it? Matt? Fractions run.
Elliot: Yeah, it might have been Fractions run, which I didn't care for that much. And then, of course, Jason Aaron took over, and I read Jason Aaron's entire run as it was coming out. And that's when I fell in love with Jane Foster and continue to love her. What about you guys?
Rob: Yeah. Gito. What about yourself?
Guido: I never read any Thor until Jane, actually. So I read Aaron's run when we meet who we don't know is Jane Thor. That was the first time I'd read Thor, other than event issues or tie ins with other stuff I was reading. So I read that as it was coming out, and I kept reading Thor from then to now. And that is also, therefore, my Jane Foster knowledge. I have since gone back and read some, particularly for today, but even just in the last few years in anticipation of this movie, after this announcement three years ago. But, yeah, my Thor knowledge is bound up in my Jane knowledge. So this is a really exciting episode for me.
Speaker UNK: Rob.
Rob: Yeah, and I never read any Thor. I mean, I just saw him, uh, as a member of The Avengers, so I did not really even know his backstory. And the whole Donald Blake aspect, since that's also absent from the MCU movie. So we'll go into that, I think, a little bit today. And Jane, I hate to say I didn't even know existed until the first MCU movie. I was thinking everyone knows Lois Lane. She's synonymous with Superman. Spiderman has got two female, uh, love, uh, interests. Mary Jane Watson and Gwen Stacy are both pretty famous. But Jane Foster also kind of pepper potts. Betsy Betty Ross as well. Those didn't really seem to be Betsy Ross, but yeah, they didn't seem to be as much in the public consciousness, at least for people like me, who were comic book readers but were more casual comic book readers.
Guido: I think that's true. You'll see this episode, I have a lot more background than I usually do because I think it's interesting. And Jane disappears for decades. She's not a lot of Jane's story.
Elliot: I have gone back and read some of the Walt Simonson running. She's not in it a lot. It really focuses on the Warriors Three and a, uh, lot of the space escapades, the cosmic side of Four. I think he probably introduced that. So, yeah, it didn't really kick start it until the MCU again and kind of made her a major character again.
Guido: Yeah, I think that definitely was an influence, even though there were stories being told that were so different and in a lot of cases, better in the comics, that I think it must have been her presence in the movies that brought her two people's minds at least.
Rob: Well, let's go back to the days when Jane Foster was an RN living in Manhattan, lusting after Donald Lake Thor. And we will discover our origins of the story.
Elliot: Right now on this very show. You're going to get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago.
Guido: It's fun when we hit that clip on an issue that he actually wrote.
Rob: I know, I was just thinking that it's great because we're going to hear from Stan in a moment because we are discussing Thor issue number 130 67. This is entitled to become an immortal.
Guido: And this is written by Stan. Penciled by Jack Kirby inked by Vince Coletta lettered by Arty Simek edited by Stan So, before I share why we read this issue, let me explain where Jane was to this point, which is only a few years of continuity. She's a nurse assisting doctor Donald Blake, the ego of Thor. He's in love with her, but she's into Thor. So it's a little bit of a Superman Lois love triangle set up very briefly. She's a damsel in distress a whole lot. Thor wants to tell her who he is, but Odin forbids it. Thor eventually defies Odin, and right before this issue, actually, there's an arc where Thor does defy. Odin tells Jane, jane is working for the High Evolutionary on one degour mountain, and Thor decides to petition Odin to get them to marry. And that's what brings us to this issue. And we read this issue because it's Jane's then first trip to Asgard, her first encounter with Odin. Odin turns her into a goddess with flight to test her worthiness in this issue, or whatever his stupid App Nine plan is. But that's important to the what if in some ways. So that's why we read this issue.
Rob: Yeah, an issue 136, and Jack and Stan were still involved. It seems like pretty lazy.
Guido: Well, remember, the numbering takes over from Journey into Mystery, so it's actually only like a dozen issues into the Thor.
Rob: Okay, got you. Yeah.
Guido: Remember, all the titles were re numbered. Like strange tales becomes Doctor Strange.
Rob: So in fact, it's the inverse almost. It feels like we're kind of jumping. It seems like their relationship really got really fast tracked.
Guido: Jane and Thor.
Rob: Yeah. When you think about Superman and Lois, for example.
Guido: Yeah, maybe they've existed for the four years between her creation well, she's actually 62, but probably so five years of comics. So it's a good show.
Rob: She looks great for her age. That's the issue. I know. I, uh, know.
Elliot: They'Re definitely in the 60s, these echoes of trying to do what the Superman and Lois mythology is. It just seems because Robbie, when, uh, you said fast track, it does seem like they start with these ideas of what became now classic tropes and then quickly move past them. I was struck by that, um, because I hadn't read classic, unlike Guido, who's getting more in love with these Golden Age issues. And the writing. I find it really hard to read these because it's so, um, almost straightforward and simple and sometimes too condensed. Now, we're used, um, to having like, a six issue arc and things happen so much quicker in these comics. But it was fun to see Jack Kirby are always, like, going back and comparing it to Jack Kirby's best stuff. This was not his best stuff. Um, this issue was strange because of some of the choices. Because some of the choices, uh, in it.
Rob: Elliot, with the art, did you see some reflections on the Eternals in there? Especially? I see so much of that. Maybe it's that classic Kirby things. There's so many of his headpieces there and so much of things that I feel like he reflected on later in his career.
Elliot: Yeah, definitely. I think even the design of Asgard is very, like, um, there's pipes and things like that. You can see maybe his still life was a bunch of junk in his garage and he just glamorized it there, but this seems a little bit more rushed. Like Eternals is such a beautiful jack. Kirby the splash pages and the, uh, two page spreads of his up close, much, uh, cleaner art. This feels not as clean.
Guido: Yeah, most of the book, um, is like six panel pages. Yeah, it's very typical and stiff's outfit at the end. I mean, is straight out of the Eternals. He actually looks like Cersei. I didn't realize there was lines in the neck piece. And yeah, her hair is slicked back. It is all very Kirby. Very eternal. Yeah. I think it's cool that the Mangog is in this. I think it's neat because of how important man GOG is to Jane in Jason Aaron's run and that whole story. So it's very cool that toward the beginning, he plays this role, even though Rangagh's role has nothing to do well, I guess it has to do with Jane in the sense that it's why Odin demands, um, mule near back.
Elliot: Yeah, that's the most if.
Guido: That's the what if. Hold on.
Elliot: Yeah, these clearly we'll get to it, but there's a lot of echoes, um, in here and with the Jason Aaron run, too. So I like how it really is all connected, that it really does get somewhat confused in our heads, uh, because there are so many, like, little beats. The main one being that Odin is a straight up jerk and he goes back.
Guido: Oh, my God.
Speaker UNK: Yes.
Elliot: It's bizarre. Like, it's real creepy in the what if and then really bad in the Jason Aaron run. So it's just interesting that Odin being around for so long, he can have this much longer character. I guess when you live for eternity, you can go through your we might go through a rebellious stage in our adolescence for a couple of years. And he goes through, like, a straight up jerk phase for hundreds of years, I guess, or something like that.
Guido: Well, it is fun though, to see it because yeah, in the Jason Aaron run we'll talk more about it. But Odin is such a jerk consistently.
Elliot: It's awful.
Guido: It's neat to see it in this Stan and Jack that he's also a jerk like that. It's just a part of Odin. No one made him a jerk like that. He just has been written that way from the beginning, for whatever reason. And in this like the way he's manipulating Jane and Thor, obviously he makes her a goddess just so that she'll fail, so that he can send her back brainwash to Earth and he can get SIF with Thor. It's really absurd.
Rob: But mhm, there is a classic element to that story of going back to Greek mythology and Roman mythology, of the god and the human and the human then seeming unworthy from the other gods. You hear so much of that kind of classic story in mythology. So it does definitely seems like Jack and Stan are updating. It here.
Elliot: It's the original daddy issues. Everyone has an issue with their exactly.
Guido: Knowledge. Very true. So before we wrap this section up, anyone want to say anything else on Jane? Because I want to give you a glimpse into Jane's future before we get to our what, if anything else on this issue.
Elliot: Just that she's just being used. I think that's a theme. Until maybe Jason Erin.
Rob: Yeah. And I mean, as we go into her future too, she ends here basically having her mind wiped and ending up back at the hospital and not really knowing what, uh, happened too. So it definitely seems like, as you just said Elliot, that she has been here abused because she's not even coming out of this issue with her own agency intact.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Guido: Oh, it gets better because, uh, after this issue, there's this whole thing where SIF infuses her life force into Jane because Jane is dying. And then a little while after that, jane discovers that she can actually turn into SIF with this weapon. So Jane and SIF become sort of one entity and that's what puts Thor and Jane back into a relationship together.
Rob: So basically saying the man doesn't even need to decide he can have Betty and Veronica because they've both been merged in one being.
Elliot: That solved a lot of problems. That would solve a problem.
Guido: It could be definitely some adolescent fantasy there. But that's what gets us to again, there's not a ton of story with her. So that's what gets us to the point of the what if. And then just before we move into the what if, after the what if, there's very little Jane. They split up. Jane has a son, uh, becomes a doctor. She sometimes shows up to be a healer to superheroes, but that's it. She doesn't have a huge part of Thor up until she goes to Brockston when Asgard is on Earth to open a clinic with Donald Blake. Then very quickly, Jason Aaron writes that she learned she has cancer. And then that leads us into what we're going to be talking about later. So very little Jane stuff in her backstory, and I think that's it on my background for her.
Rob: Well, let's open the rainbow Bridge and fly into our exploring multiversity.
Elliot: I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me, um, and ponder the question, what if.
Rob: As we mentioned, and as you probably already know, we're going to talk about one of the most famous what if, one of the most collectible what ifs too, we should add, and that is whatif? Volume one, issue number ten. What if Jane Foster had found the hammer of Thor? From August 119,078.
Guido: All right, so this is written by Dongle At pencil by Rick Hoburg inked by Dave Hunt colored by Carl Gafford lettered by Carol Lee edited by Roy Thomas this is Earth seven, eight, eight. And I have a good amount of background on this that I want to share because it is a more famous issue. So thanks to a recent interview Glut did with inverse.com some material from back issues you magazine that Rick Hoburg did. So prior to this, Don had written a total of eight what ifs. And he started before this one. He wrote some Cap and Ghost Rider in late 70s, marvel, a lot of Conan and Cull the Conqueror. And prior to that, he had been at Charlton and Gold Key. After this, he actually moves out of comics, pretty much, and it works rights for animated series. He actually sued Mattel because he claimed he created a lot of the heman characters he wrote for the Xmen animated series. He lost that lawsuit to Mattel. So I don't know what the truth of that is, but interesting career that Don glutt has. So Roy came to him to write What If because they were friends. Actually, Roy and Rickelberg and Donglet used to have really big parties. And at these parties they would have huge pina coladas. So they would call them One World's Coladas. And, like, One World's Colada And they'd sit around and they would say something like, hey, what if Spiderman had two heads? And from that, that would become the stories that they developed. And so at one of the parties, they said, what if Donald Blake didn't find the hammer? What if it was Jane? And so they had a whole ton of ideas. What if Thor was a woman will? He already has long hair. And what if it's Jane? So let's go with it. So then in terms of naming, it was Rick who came up with the name Thor diz. They had tried a few other names, including thorina and Thorette.
Elliot: It's like Smurfit.
Rob: Yes, just like Smurfet.
Guido: But they went with Thordes, which it turns out was a real name, though at the time, they claimed they didn't know where it came from. And then when it came to the design of the character, they wanted to keep the Thor costume. But, and this is, in the words of Donglut, like the sexist we all were back then, we thought she should have bare legs like Supergirl and Mary Marvel. Other than that, I don't think there was anything we did to change it other than adding breast plates. And then, of course, they breast. Talk about exactly. Very Madonna. Paul goti preprodo influence. Uh, and then Rick Holberg said that he found this issue really liberating to draw because it was a chance for him to do complete, no holds barred Marvel Comics. It was totally marvel style. So Don would give him the breakdown, the story breakdown, and Rick Hoburg would do all the art he wanted and sometimes add a little to the plot through the art, and he was just able to have a lot of fun with it. And they both said that they have seen Jason Aaron's run, and they really appreciate it. They saw this issue as a one shot that would never mean anything to anyone. And now Don glutt said recently he can't believe that there's a big budget movie and that there's merchandise with Jane as Thor. That never entered his mind, and it's astonishing to see that, and that it was really a great time to do this. He also notes that calling her the mighty Thor is very cool, and that's it he's thankful that they are not calling her Thoris.
Elliot: I think we all are.
Guido: So that's some background on the creation of the issue. And then the only other thing I'll say is that this is the first person now, granted, it's not six one six. This is the first person in Marvel Comics to wield the hammer that's not Thor. So obviously, a little while later is Beta Ray Bill, and actually Zeus two years later, wields the hammer to fight Thor, and a bunch of people have picked it up. But this is the first time someone who's not Thor wields the hammer in Jane Foster.
Elliot: I did not know all this background. And I love hearing about Rick Holberg's pencils, because this was my favorite part of this whole issue, is the art. It's why I fell in love with comics in the first place. I love bold graphic art. This is definitely a love letter to Kirby. I don't think I've seen Rick Holberg's other art, but maybe I have. But he's definitely doing his version of Jack Kirby hands and pencil work and Kirby dots, everything. But I just love the bold colors. It's what I miss about modern comics with all the computer rendering, is sometimes it doesn't really need it. You just need really strong blacks and really bold primary colors. So I loved looking at this issue, and it's not just the style drawing. We should give credit to dave Hunt, too, for the bold inks.
Guido: Yeah, I think the inks are really.
Elliot: Great because the layout rick Hobg does a nice job. The first time you ever see Jane Foster as Thoris, it's almost a full page, really bold. It's just really cool. So I loved looking at this issue, regardless of the writing in the issue and what actually, um, happens at the end of the issue.
Guido: But there is a lot of writing.
Elliot: Yes, but I'm so happy to know about the background with the art, because I do think when he says in the interview that he gets to go full Marvel, it definitely shows. I loved it.
Rob: Yeah, I agree. I think that the art is really the standout thing in here. And maybe he was saying, like you just mentioned to Elliot, the full Marvel, he really gets to run the gamut here. He's got those cosmic pages in the beginning with the Watcher. He's got some outer space stuff. He's got asgard. He's got earth. And I definitely also see a big pop art kind of influence here. A lot of the drawings remind me of the kind of comic art that Lichtenstein was also working on, the super almost maybe from this possibly Kirby, those super kind of detailed faces. It almost has almost a soap opera s because everyone's very chiseled and has that. But then also what they do with the backgrounds, too. There's a few where they just dispense with any kind of and maybe this was a time saving thing. But it really is so strikingly visual where the background is just suddenly all red with no exclamation. And it really is super striking when Donald Blake and SYF are, um, going to have their first kiss. And it's a very from Here to Eternity kind of moment on the beach. But the background is suddenly you don't see the beach. You just see this red, and it gives the whole thing this kind of expressionistic, almost quality.
Guido: You know who else he reminds me of? Which it's not a surprise that actually he, uh, went on to DC mostly in the 80s, because he reminds me of Jose Luis Garcia Lopez, who is like the iconic house style DC. And a lot of this is like that. Even I would say this tortoise, uh, reminds me of some of the Bronze Age Wonder Woman, like, really defined facial features and the flowing hair, but with lots of heavy line work in it. And so there's something about the DC house style of this era that I think this reminds me of, too.
Rob: Yeah, that's a big difference between that and the Kirby, because the Kirby look is like you don't really get a lot of facial features there. You just kind of get eyes and hear every single person. Their whole faces are so expressive.
Elliot: Well, yeah, that's what I was going to say, too. Which reminds me of the DC artists, too, is that you do, um, get a lot of acting and emotion through the faces, which I'm, um, always surprised by when I read older comics because I'm not expecting that. But even someone like Jim Lee, who I, uh, copied endlessly and whom I love all his face is exactly the same. You can overlay every female face and they're exactly the same. I'm even looking at Jane Foster. And Don Blink having a conversation. The eyebrows. Everything changes. I could go on about the art, but let's go dive into Odin.
Rob: Yeah.
Guido: I don't know where to start on this.
Rob: When I was reading this, I was reading it on Marvel Unlimited and I clicked on it, just see how, uh, many pages do I have left of this? It's like I have 20 pages left of this. I thought this was just about to be done. It's so long. There's so much stuff. There's so many. Like, just when you think the story is done, they introduce a whole new billing character to take it into the next step.
Elliot: Well, I wonder too, just like the art, I wonder if Don Glad is trying to mimic the old original Thor comics in Stanley's writing, which is like, someone picks up a stick and then there's a caption that says, Jane picked up the stick. It just completely defeats the purpose of having words and images at the same time. And I wonder if he tried to do if down Glen tried to do that a little bit. It's like an homage to that style of writing. I don't know.
Guido: Well, one interesting thing is they talk about so in the letters page, three issues later, all of the letters have to do with this issue, which there are some that I might share in our conversation. But one that relates to this is the editors who are responding to the letters, one of the letter who really did not like it because they talk about how it was an alternate reality story and that it reproduces the original story panel by panel. And they talk about how this is a parallel development type of what if in which virtually every event of an earlier tale has its parallel event in the new one. And so that was what they were trying to do with this. So I think that's why they're trying to cram so much in, because it's why they have her fight like a lot of the early Thor villains. And it's a single panel that means nothing, but because there's so many caption boxes and narration, it feels so dense and long. But it was interesting to see in the letters page that they saw this as almost a type of what if in terms of being a parallel developed universe.
Elliot: Well, there's so many caption box underneath with the little star saying, as seen in Thor 136, and then as seen in every single panel that page. I think modern comic would just do the double. Page, splash page, and have this montage of all that a real fan would have been like, oh, that's when Thor fought the Lava Men.
Guido: Cobra.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Elliot: Um, I thought it was a serpent society. I was like crossover with you.
Rob: Yeah. No, I know. Cobra. But yeah, actually, on that same page is one of, I think, the best moments in it, because it's not really a heavy humor issue at all. But one of the things that did make me laugh out loud is when Thoris joins the Avengers, and that Wasp is very excited that there's another woman joining, and it's the most powerful member of the Avengers will be a woman. But Giant Man is not listening to her at all. Uh, Giant Man is just staring in awe, uh, at the new addition to the team, which is a great kind of play on the Janet Van Dyne publisher, who's, uh, doing that.
Guido: One of the letters that was submitted. Our regular listeners know I love these letters to editors, but one says in the last panel on page 31 was Priceless a giant man giving the Wasp a taste of her own medicine by Ogling. Sordis so someone even noticed that when.
Rob: The camera you've listened to this podcast, you know that Janet is very horny. Much hornier than one would think for sixty s and seventy s character.
Guido: Yeah. And so what do we think about Jane as a character in this? Like, does it make sense that any decisions she'd make or as a character as Thoris? And let's keep the end separate. That's what I'm not fixing.
Elliot: That's what I'm too concentrated on. Like you just said, I think they lose the opportunity to make her own choices because it's just a shadow of what Thor already did. So it doesn't really matter that it's Jane, because except for the actually, except for the point when she joins the Avengers, and you're like, oh yeah, right. There'd be another really, the most powerful Avenger is a woman. But they don't that could have been its own. They could have condensed the whole issue, the beginning of this issue, into a couple pages, and then had that as the kind of ripple effect of what would happen. But they don't take any opportunity to explore that central question, what makes Jane different than for Odenson? At least in my opinion.
Guido: Mhm, no, I think that's right. I actually can't really even point to a difference. To the point where she marries Thor's father, which Thor probably wouldn't do.
Elliot: That's another alternate reality.
Rob: Yes. We should mention too, that instead of having well, it starts off as this stick, as the cane that Donald Blake uses, but then she transforms that cane into something else, which is she's made that Norwegian wood into a hairbrush. Oh, my God.
Guido: I forgot that's Right.
Rob: Is what she uses to transform into thorny. She hits this hairbrush on the ground, which is very, uh, ridiculous, but at the same time, it almost feels like they should have like maybe this is what we're getting at. It almost feels like they should have explored her gender more in a way. Obviously, that's a silly example, but explore a little bit more what it means to be a woman in this role, which, of course, Jason Aaron will go on to do. But that seems to be what's missing, because it really, aside from the fact that she is a woman, and obviously a few people are mentioning it, her story is exactly the same as male source.
Guido: Well, in some ways, I have to appreciate that. It's good that it's not a story about gender. Right. I appreciate that. Maybe I don't know if this is what Don quote was trying to do, but it just normalizes it. So it says, let's tell a story where James Thor and not make it about the fact that she's now, at that time, like they do with Ms. Marvel, they would have called her like a woman's liberty, all that kind of stuff.
Elliot: What they missed the opportunity to do then, which Jason and we'll get to this in a little bit, is that Thor was driven by battle, and he learns humility through his time in midgard and things like that. But Jane is already let's take out gender. She's already someone from Earth, and she's an RN, so she's already dedicated her life to one of service and taking Hypocritical oath and things like that. That would have been interesting to see, her sense of morality, her sense of duty and responsibility, how that would play out. Like, instead of being like, let's fight the lava men and cobra, what if it's, I'm going to take on evil corporation? I don't know, something like that. Which I guess I came up with evil corporations because of rocks on and things like that, too. Later in Aaron's run, that might have been maybe not what it means to, um, be a woman in the role, but just someone with a deep sense of humanity and care for others would have been interesting.
Guido: Yeah, there's definitely mhm no character development whatsoever.
Elliot: No.
Rob: Yeah. And before we get to the ending, which cannot be ignored, I think there's another big thing, another big flag in here, which is the Bstory, let's say, of, um, this, which is SIF and Donald Blake's story. And one thing that definitely kind of troubled me here a little bit is that SIF heals Donald Blake and he's no longer lame, which is the word they use here. But it definitely seemed to me like they're saying this story of, well, he can only then be in this relationship with this woman when he's no longer disabled. Are you waiting for a react or response? Yes. Did either of you pick up on that, too?
Elliot: I didn't pick up on that part. It just was really striking, and always a striking reading older comics about how they focus so much on his leg that Don Blake has this leg that he needs a cane to, um, better walk with. And they bring it up all the time. Like, even the military men are looking at them through binoculars, being like, oh, she's walking away with that lame. It's just interesting that they keep harping on it. That's what struck me. I hadn't really thought about, um, the fact that he can then be in a relationship once cured.
Guido: Yeah. And I guess for me, too, some of it is, um, he doesn't seem to have a significant disability.
Rob: No.
Guido: He's shown in other panels even prior to, quote, unquote, being healed. And I guess he's sometimes either being helped or has, like, a cane. But yeah. I don't know. I did not notice.
Speaker UNK: What?
Rob: You noticed he's able to swim out and save her, right? Yes. And he's a hot doctor no matter what. Uh, but, yeah, let's talk about the oh, sorry. Go ahead, go ahead.
Guido: The, um, ending. Yeah.
Rob: The other troubling thing of this issue, which is that Odin and Jane uh, Mary.
Guido: I understand if they know it's absurd, there's no way they don't know it's absurd. It happens on one channel, literally, simply because she's rejected. And she's like, well, what's the point of me being an immortal? Like, you might as well just make me mortal. And he's like, Well, I don't have a woman at my side. And she's like, Are you proposing to me? And, like, that's it. So they just get married and also.
Elliot: Not even set up. There has to be a little asterisk from the editor being like, uh, in this alternate reality, Odin. It doesn't even name Freya or, um, Fraga.
Guido: No. I don't know if maybe she was unnamed at this point, but yes, it says Odin has no mate, unlike the Odin Smith or of Thor number 274.
Elliot: Right. And they even refer to as mate, like it's an animal in the first place. But it's just so strange. And I think when I've been on the show before, we've talked about one of the pitfalls of a what if comic, is that they don't really see these as setting up a new run or a miniseries, uh, or whatever. So they kind of wrap it up in a, uh, bow. So there's no questions about, like, oh, will they won't they? Will Thor ever get back together with Jane Foster? And it's like, no, because he married. So she married her dad.
Rob: Yeah. One of these last caption boxes here definitely also seems like it's a little bit of a double on contra, because as Jane and Odin are walking off after he's proposed to her, and the caption box says, and in the timeless days that follow, the goddess comes to know the sincerity of Odin. What does that mean?
Guido: Well, I have to say, in one of the letters to the editor, mrs. Deborah Anne Barnett, who loved this issue and thought it was a masterpiece, and has never written a letter about an issue before. She liked that it had a happy ending, unlike other what ifs, which tend to have unhappy endings. Okay, Deborah, there were people who liked who liked it. There were, um, also our 1978 trolls in our Letters to the Editor, because we have Curtis Burns, who wanted to make clear, uh, that this was probably the dumbest issue in Marvel's entire history.
Elliot: That's a bold thing.
Guido: And to top it off, the ending was even worse, which we actually agree with him on. But what's funny is that he goes on to argue that it doesn't make sense with the myth of Thor to have Thor be a woman, and that, in fact, there were Norwegians who spent hundreds of years creating Celtic mythology, and you screwed it all up by saying Thor was a woman. And I like that the editors responding, say, actually, Curtis, if you study any kind of mythology, including Norwegian and Norse, and don't confuse them with Celtic, please, you're not the same thing. You'll see that there are literally dozens, probably hundreds of inconsistencies in those tales.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Guido: So I like that they put the troll in this place.
Elliot: It does bring up something that I think people that haven't read comics on I know my wife that just, um, saw the movie with us, had a lot, uh, of questions she doesn't understand. There's a man named Thor who has the powers of Thor. But when you pick up the hammer, you also get the powers of Thor. Is Thor this mystical power set, or is it the person? Right.
Guido: Are you an avatar of Thor?
Elliot: Especially with the confusion of who Donald Blake is, which has been, I know, in Donny Kate's recent run, there's a really cool I wouldn't call it a retcon, just an exploration of what happened to Donald Blake. When Thor takes over, his body or spirit or whatever you want to call it, basically replaces him. But that doesn't happen with Jane Foster. Like Jane Foster doesn't get replaced. She's still Jane Foster. And that happens in the air and run, too. So there's a lot of different I mean, they reckon the Donald Blake part out of it a little bit, I think. But there is kind of confusing in that way. Um, but that's comics, right? Um.
Guido: So we've never revisited this Earth, just so you know, which is very surprising, actually. It never even shows up in a Glimpse in Time Quake or in Earth X or any of the places where we see other Earth. We've never visited it before. You move into our future possibilities, do you want to go back to this Earth 788?
Elliot: I would want to. This is a little self indulgent, but I actually like my, uh, idea. I want to go back and see what she would have done, uh, as Jane Foster having the powers of Thor like I said before, I would like maybe to go back and see some adventures, not the echoes of what Thor had already done, but what makes her humanity, her influence of her own humanity on this power set.
Rob: Yeah, I agree, mhm. I think I said the same thing on our last episode as well. I wouldn't want to see where this story goes. Actually, let's best not see where it goes.
Guido: Unless maybe right after it ends. Right. They get a divorce.
Rob: That's true. Yes, exactly. She gets half of asgard. There's no peanut. But yes, I would love to actually see like you were saying, Elliot, what, uh, are James adventures, as Thor does, beyond just the few panels that we get here? And unlike most, what if we kind of get to see this in future issues?
Elliot: Well, that's what I was going to say, too. Maybe I'm only saying that because we get that with Jason Aaron's run, nobody does it.
Guido: Yeah, I was going to say I don't need to revisit this Earth because we're about to talk about an extraordinary revisit to this concept that is superior to the concept. It's the original concept itself, and anything that could have come out of it true.
Rob: Well, let us visit our next segment. Just like Odin only gets to visit Thor on weekends during the divorce, and Jane gets him the rest of the time pondering possibilities. Will the future you describe be, uh, averted to guido? Usually on the show, we have lots of issues early on and maybe a couple of issues after our what if. But it's the inverse.
Guido: It's the opposite.
Rob: It's inverse this week. Yeah. So how did you come up with this exhaustive list of comics that were.
Guido: Going to be the easiest I mean, this episode wrote itself, right? This was the easiest one. We knew even before the movie. This would have been an easy episode because we had Jason Aaron's run. So probably the hard part was how to take Jason Aaron's run and make it a little more digestible for you, Rob, because Elliot and I reread all of Jason Aaron's run for this. But I had to find what seemed to matter to the story he was telling with Jane, what seemed to correlate to what if. And then, of course, we're going to use the movie as our final story piece. So for the run itself, uh, I'll explain it. For the run itself, I chose sort of a concentration of issues at the beginning so that we could see Jane becomes Thor and what that means and how it is treated in the universe. And then I chose some at the end because I think that explores the most of the character and the decisions that she made and what Elliot wanted from her. Seven, eight.
Speaker UNK: Eight.
Guido: Like, what makes her Thor and what makes that different. So that's how I came up with this list of issues. And then we'll get into the movie, which, again, was an obvious one to include here.
Rob: So, uh, we're going to start off with mhm 2014 AK, volume four, issues one, four, six, and eight. It's like Star Trek. We're only doing the evening.
Guido: I noticed the good ones must have hit certain beats. I noticed that.
Rob: Yes. Thor. The Wrath of Con. And that is from December 2014 to July 25.
Guido: And then we're also discussing and then.
Rob: We are going to also discuss Mighty Thor from 2015. That's part of volume three, but renumbered to volume two numbers. And those are 702-73-7475 and 706 from February 2018 to June 2018.
Guido: And amazingly extraordinarily for comics, these, um, have the same creative teams. It's outstanding. It's a feat. They're written by Jason Aaron penciled and inked by Russell daughterman colored by Matt Wilson lettered by Josephino edited by Will Moss And so, over these four years of issues telling Jane's story, other than a few guest issues, this is the team that's telling Jane's story.
Elliot: What Jason Aaron does so well, and he does it in other comics runs. His head is he uses Russell daughterman for certain storylines. So it's not surprising when they skip around because he does these kind of one and done issues where anytime he does here's the story of an adventure of Thor from he, uh, chooses a different artist. And I really love I love that for continuity. And it gives Russell daughterman a break. So it's Jason Aaron, the way he tells stories to give a little background and flesh out the mythology a little bit more. And probably give the artist team a little bit of a break. Um, because Russell's Ottoman was I know he does digital and, uh, he can color his own stuff. I'm so glad Matthew Wilson does the colors on this, too. But he also does if people don't know, russell daughterman digitally shades his work. So he does a gray scale also, which takes a lot of time and the colors overlay. But anyways, that's a little inside baseball on that. But, um, I love Russell daughterman.
Guido: Oh, my God.
Elliot: So much. And the pairing, all the people that worked on this make this so successful, not regardless of combined with the story it's telling.
Guido: Well, I'm glad you started our what if conversation on the art, because definitely this run is extraordinary for so many reasons. But the art is some of my favorite comic art ever. I love it. And it's wild because I think it's Russell's first book. He did some covers, and he is extraordinary. I love him. I am in love with him. I'm obsessed with Russell Totterman. And this book is why, really. I mean, I love everything he's done since. But this book is so beautiful in every way. And everything you were saying with the what if I just think is times 1000 in this. I mean, the facial expressions and the simplicity of daughterman's art. But I don't even know how to describe it because it's not a simplicity. It's actually quite complex at times in the way he breaks panels. But it's so easy to take in. I don't know what it is. It's magic.
Elliot: He wanted to go into animation. And so you can see that influence where those that do animation, like cartooning, looks simplistic. But it's much harder because not realism than some other ways, because, uh, you have to simplify something complex. And he's also a designer. Like, if you love Russell's work, he designed all the Hell Fire Gala costumes for both years they've done it. And you can see that so much of his work, his design work, too, like his panel breakdowns are designed. He does these kind of circular pieces. And if you're reading in a book, the pages that face one another are often inverse designs. So he'll have, like, a convex arc in one, and then it's a concave, uh, arc in the other. Kind of panel breakdown. He does action, um, so well. He's a storyteller, he's a designer, and he's a good actor because the characters all have these amazing facial expressions. So he's the whole package deal. He's kind of like Jamie McKelvey that gets used a lot in Marvel. Jamie McKelvey didn't really draw a lot of Miss Marvel and Captain Marvel, but he designed their costumes and did covers for them. And so there are certain artists that people go to to design characters and new costumes. And he's one of the best.
Guido: Yes. Agreed. And so, Rob, this is your first time reading this. Elliott and I read it as it came out. So we all will have very different reactions to reading it for today. Why don't you start, since it's new to you?
Rob: Yeah, I think just to start at the beginning, I'm always a sucker for mystery kind of set up. And I love that, uh, Jason Aaron kind of almost puts it's not really film noir, but he has this kind of elements that he kind of sprinkles in these elements of mystery there. And I really like that not just around the identity of the mighty Thor, but also just other ways that he kind of structures the story, uh, kind of malachi plan, master plan, and how it kind of slowly become comes to light and things like that. It definitely takes its time, and it has that kind of slow mystery element to it. Now, I, of course, was reading this knowing that it is Jane under the mask, but you two were reading it contemporary to this coming out. So what was your experience reading this and not knowing? Because I love that he sets it up by going to Jane, uh, and that Thor, or Odin son, then goes and sees her and she's very sick, and then he eliminates her as a potential person. Frieda Friga is kind of the person yeah. Who seems, uh, the most obvious candidate may be a little too obvious in mystery terms, but then, of course, uh, Freya.
Guido: Yeah, I remember distinctly being convinced it was Freya, and when that issue plays out, when it's not her, I was like, oh, I was wrong. I was very convinced. La, do you remember what you thought?
Elliot: I don't remember. I do remember like you, Rob, I need the, uh, mystery sometimes, especially when I'm reading it monthly. As Guido well knows, I have a terrible reading memory. I have a terrible reading memory, so I can read an issue, and then a month later, I'll pick up issue number two and be like, I don't know if I read issue number one, but I can watch 17 different TV shows mhm at a time and keep them all straight in my head. I know exactly where I left off. So that's a learning style conversation for a different type of podcast. I remember trying to guess. I remember I love how, um, he introduces James Cancer as a story, first of all, just to talk about humanity and something that almost everyone can connect with. If you haven't had someone who's battled cancer in your family, you probably know ten other people whose family members have or friends and things like that, and so it really grounds it. And also, once you see Jane in the way that Daughter Man draws her to you're like, oh, well, she can't be Thor. Yeah, because I don't know how that would work, because I was probably too focused on the blonde hair. I thought it was like Broom Hill or someone who had been Valkyrie. It was going to be some deep cut as guardian that we just from the that we hadn't seen in a long time. Because when I came aboard with J michael Strazzynski, he was, um, bringing back a lot of what made Walt Simonson's Run so famous. Uh, he brought Thor to Brockson, he brought the Warriors Three back, he brought SIF, he brought Loki back from the dead and made her Lady Loki, and was doing all this stuff that introduced me to the mythology, and I thought probably Jason Aaron was doing the same thing. I probably thought it was they really set it up to be Freya, a lot of it too, because she was being sidelined and she was becoming really powerful and sticking it, uh, to her husband in lots of different ways. So, yeah, I loved revisiting this, though, because then I could settle in and see I love looking at things, watching movies for the second time and just going back and seeing the choices that creators made. So this is really fun, reading it in omnibus format and binge reading it and really, um, getting an appreciation for the seeds, um, you planted for War of the Realms and His Master plan that I just really loved.
Rob: Yes, I didn't, um, read the whole omnibus like you too. I just read the issues that we just mentioned, but now that we're saying it too, and maybe this is the same for both of you, but actually, thinking back, it reminded me of the Hawkspox as well in that that also has this kind of slowly unraveling mystery. Like, at first, you don't quite know what's going on, and then suddenly it starts to kind of form you're kind of jumping between different stories. And what I like is someone who doesn't read every issue of new comics like the two of you do. I really like digesting this in kind of mini series form. So for me, reading, say, these first four issues of Before We Know It's Jane, and then these kind of final six issues where it's wrapping up her run, it's like super digestible to me. And I really appreciate that. So I think someone who, like myself, is not a comic fan, but is not as committed as the two of you. This is a great way to kind of take these stories in without going whole hog into reading everything.
Elliot: Yeah. Guitar, please comment on this. I wonder when Rob was talking. I wonder if what you're recognizing, uh, with both Hickman's House of X and Powers of Ten, and this and Jason Aaron's run is clearly those two went in with a they don't pitch this as I've got an idea for a story. I have an idea for a five year plan or however many years where this is definitely Jason Aaron is like, I'm going to take over Thor. I'm going to deep into mythology. I'm going to do past Thor and King Thor. Then I'm going to have Jane Foster take over. And it's going to all lead to War of the Realms. He was planning those seeds so early that what you might be seeing is the difference between someone has an idea for a story versus someone's idea for revitalizing and taking the whole mythology into a new direction. What do you think?
Guido: Yeah, it's a soft reboot. So I think that's one thing that helps. It's a very well constructed soft reboot because there are plenty of times that a title goes through a soft reboot, and it might amount to nothing. But in both of those cases, yeah, it's a soft reboot where the creator had the entire reconstruction of the world in mind. And why it's a soft reboot and not a proper reboot is because it has the spirit of the things that we recognize. So this is still Thor. Just as Hawksbox is still X Men. This is still Thor, but it's a Thor that's completely transformed and that makes it accessible and exciting to new and old readers alike.
Rob: Yeah. And for people like me, I can pick and choose if I want to read the more mystery, political intrigue storyline. I can read that if I'm less interested in War the Realms and big, giant, epic fantasy kind of stuff. I can put that aside and then kind of go back to it. So it's really nice how, as you said, Elliot, it's all part of a master plan, but someone like me doesn't feel necessarily committed to reading the entire thing. I can kind of jump in when the genre suits me.
Elliot: Yeah, and I think they do that. The issues you skipped has to do with Dario Agar, this minotaur who takes over the rocks on Oil Corporation and gets in bed, not literally, with Malicious, and he starts mining oil on Spartalheim, where the light balls live. So there's all this like, corporate espionage, kind of. And then there's what's interesting that you just mentioned with the soft reboot, and we talked about it with the earlier issues with Jane Foster, with the manga. The ending of the Jane Foster as Thor involves, uh, the mango. Instead of this kind of triangle between Sith and Odinson and Jane Foster, we now have Ross, who is a Shield agent that Jason Aaron introduces, and she's also on the list. Door is convinced that's, um, Jane Foster Roz is the new Thor and the mighty Thor. Um, and so they play with that triangle, too. And there's the Mangog and there's Odin being a jerk. So those are all echoes of the past. But moving the whole mythology forward, which is really cool.
Guido: Yeah. And then to move more into the latter half, what I think it does so well, and this is both Aaron and Daughter. Man, for sure, is emotion. I actually didn't even remember how much emotion. I mean, I was probably moved when I read it the first time in 2018. But reading it now and reading it more concisely, or quickly, I should say, I was tearful in some of those final issues. I really love Jane's thoughts and decisions and what we know about her as a character, her willingness to choose being Thor at the sacrifice of her own life and what that means, uh, and it doesn't redeem Odin at all. Odin remains a total ass. But the moment of Odin helping Thor pull her out of to resurrect her at the end, I find really effective. I think it all feels, uh, earned and the stakes feel high, and it feels really moving and it's so good.
Elliot: Yeah, I agree to all that. The final choice she makes when the hammer is floating by her bed, and the way that Daughterman draws that, and they cut to it, and they cut between the action and that's very cinematic. And again, it goes back to what we were saying before. We, um, get to see that's Jane Foster making that choice and helping out and understanding and wanting to take um on that responsibility, understanding the power that she has when she holds the hammer physically. But you also get to see that she's just a powerful she's battling cancer, which is the biggest, like everyone that I've known that gone through that's, made it and, um, survived. That is the greatest battle of their life. So the way that Erin uses that in the story is just so it's poetic, I guess. The only word for it.
Rob: Yeah. And I think going back to what you kind of hinted at earlier, Elliot, in how Russell Dotterman depicts her, she doesn't even look human. At some point, she looks very alien esque. And if you know someone who's gone to this stage of cancer, you do start to lose, like, your physical humanity element. So there's almost this irony there in that she's embracing it is an alien power that she's taking into her human body, which has now become alien. There's also this alien force, this alien thing, which is cancer inside of her body, but at the same time, it's her humanity. Ultimately, that is the decision maker that she's like, I'm going to sacrifice myself for the better. Good. So ultimately it comes down to this human thing, even though there's all these different alien external things that are affecting her as well.
Guido: I agree with what you said. I just don't like the use of the word alien for that. So I would prefer we recharacterize what you just said as she looks. I think there is a way when someone looks sick that they look less like a human and less healthy. But I would just prefer we not call an alien, that's all. But I agree with what you said.
Elliot: Otherwise, I thought you're literally referencing the way that most aliens are drawn with the small faces and the larger heads.
Rob: Oh, that's what I said.
Guido: Yeah, I think he is. But I wouldn't call someone I think she looks like someone who has cancer, and I wouldn't like in that to an alien. Right. That's the part I just want to remove that from your point. But I think your point is right, that she looks less human, and then it's this not human thing, this not human force that she embraces. So I think everything you said is right. I'm challenging that character.
Rob: Yes, you can challenge it.
Elliot: So when listeners are listening this, when you hear Rob's voice go out and you hear less human said by Guito, dubbed over.
Rob: Exactly.
Guido: Not taking the time to do that.
Rob: What did you all think about then, the final decision about how she decides, uh, to defeat no, I'm blanking on these are big, bad, uh, because I think it's so clever on Jason Aaron part on how they decide to defeat this and how it can also kind of end this story, which is to send out the Molyer into the sun. It's just a great way. How do you defeat this undefeatable thing and then the idea that this sacrifice has to be made in connection to that?
Guido: Uh, well, again, it feels earned because for four years, Mjolnir is almost a character like, Jason Aaron does this thing, and maybe other writers have done it.
Elliot: I don't know.
Guido: Thor well enough to know mhm. But Mjolnir is a presence and Mueller is a force. I like that. It's not good or bad, right? It's not the Phoenix. It's not this force that is demanding and that is corrupting, though that could be there, right. The way it hovers outside of her hospital room and draws her in. You could sort of see it's bad, but it's also caretaking and nurturing and loving and it's connecting. And it's all of those things. There's also the whole, obviously, side plot, which we don't need to get into and Robbie don't know anything about. But with Thor not being worthy and so for her to destroy Mjolnir actually also alters his journey. It alters her journey. So I do think it is a great way to end this story.
Elliot: You talked about the soft reboot before, but changing the way that Odin defeats the manga, which was just the mango was billions and billions of souls together, and then he just releases them back. And that's how right. Am I remembering that correctly?
Rob: Yes, that's correct.
Elliot: And this one physically, um, jane defeats the Van Gogh in this one, using her wits and her strength and, you'll know, his power. So it's kind of rewriting that history a little bit, too, and that Odin doesn't step in using his all powerful Odin force. They need Jane.
Rob: Yeah, it's definitely like a dena in the what if, as opposed to here, where it is. As you said, it's story driven, which is what's so great about it.
Elliot: Yeah, people listening to this haven't read this. It's well worth. I don't go back and read a ton of comics because I don't have the time. And this is because it's collected. Now, I do like reading things collected more because of my own learning issues, with my own memory issues from month to month. But this is one of the greatest kind of modern stories, I think.
Guido: I think they did a trade paperback, possibly. Um, one of those marvel were slightly smaller ones that's like the saga of Jane Foster's Thor, where they pulled the issues that were important to her Thor story and left out all the war of the realms, similar to how I did it. So there is a trade paperback that you can get just to follow the Jane arc a little bit. So worth it.
Rob: Let's follow her arc into another medium. And time to talk about the brand new movie Thor Love and Thunder. So if you haven't seen the movie yet, this is a good time to pause the podcast and return to us after you've seen the movie.
Guido: And we're going to talk about the whole thing. So this is a spoiler warning because.
Elliot: We need to go read Jason Aaron Russell Daughterman's Run, and then watch the movie and then come back.
Guido: Exactly. But otherwise, if you don't care yes.
Rob: Otherwise we're going to talk about Thor Love and Thunder from 2022.
Guido: So this is directed by Taika ITT, who wrote it with Jennifer Katyn Robinson. And it was produced by Kevin Feige and Brad winterbound. And for obvious reasons, we watched it. We would have watched it either way. But we're including it here as one of our stories because it extends from our alternate universe.
Rob: Yeah, I think we all said after coming out of the movie, and I think this is also reflected in what Don Glut said that you told us earlier in the episode. I don't think there's an MCU movie that's been so directly tied back to a comic, the Jason Aaron run. But then even taking some influence from the what if as well. It really is so accurate. I mean, obviously there's some significant changes as well that kind of need to be made for a movie. But it's very similar in those ways.
Guido: Yeah, I think that's true.
Elliot: Yeah. I was just trying to think even.
Guido: If you think of, like, Civil War, none of those things were direct adaptations.
Elliot: No. And even I think we were talking about yesterday, the closest one, when they showed the artwork and the title card for Hawkeye, and it was clearly Map Fraction and David AHA. And they even give them credit more so than they often give credit. It had characters and beats, but not the throughline. This movie is the Thor God of Thunder, jason Aaron's first story arc with Gore the God Butcher, uh, who Jason Aaron invents and will give East Adrienne, like, a huge amount of credit for the design mix with Jason Aaron and Russell Dotterman's run. You take out, um, all the well, no, you don't take out the unworthy part, because they use that with Thor's arc in endgame, he becomes unworthy, um, just because he decides he's kind of unworthy because he can't, um, defeat thanos and the hammer gets yeah.
Guido: I think you could apply the unworthiness to his feelings of, uh, self worth.
Elliot: It we just wanted to find, which.
Guido: I think they explore well in this movie. I like that. Actually. That's one of the many things I would have liked more of is his arc in terms of is he worthy or not? And what does that mean?
Elliot: We do get this. There's a scene on the boat when they're traveling to the under the shadow realm. Is that when they're traveling and they do have he and Jane have a conversation. We do get a little bit of that, but it's too quick when he decides he wants to be stupid or no. What is it? Think, um, stupidly about her?
Guido: Yes, exactly. I think that's, um isn't it feel shitty.
Elliot: Oh, feel shitty, yes. To your point, Rob, I think we're kind of going off a little bit. But yes. Um, this movie was more like, I think the writers this should be an adapted screenplay. There's so much story beats, and then it's infused with kind of tycoi TV's, kind of goofy humor in different parts of it, but it's definitely the strongest adaptation. And I think I'll kind, um, of just go, uh, first and say just a quick review, is that I liked it, but I, uh, didn't love it. It warmed up for me. I actually think the end was the strongest and maybe because it got a little bit more serious and started introducing a lot of themes, which makes Erin's Mighty Thor, Dotterman's Mighty Thor run so great. That's when we started to see more of the echoes of that. And that's when the movie got really strong for me. Uh, the beginning took me out of it a lot. I wasn't enjoying it as much.
Guido: Um, yeah, I think there's a lot of for me, also liking it, not loving it, there's a lot of heart missing from it, and even rescinding having just reread the daughter and Aaron run, but reskimming it for this conversation, the way in the end, you understand also the difference between Jane and Odinson. So she says to him when she gives him that piece of Mueller, she says, the hammer made me Thor. You already were Thor. Like, you brought yourself to the hammer. That is really so touching. And that could have fit in the movie, but isn't there they should have added some of that depth, that character depth, I think, of what it means to be Thor and why that choice. I think that would have worked much better.
Rob: Yeah. The more I was thinking about it, and I think we all kind of agreed we liked it, it's fun, but we all thought it was missing something. And I think one of the things is when you're reading the Jason Aaron Russell daughterman run, is that Jane Thor and Thor Odinson are really coleads. And at times it even goes more towards Jane story. The movie is definitely still about Chris Hemsworth's. Thor. And I think one of the things that it could have benefited from more is giving Jane story a bit more heft. She's definitely still very much in the background and quite literally in some, uh, scenes where Chris Hemsworth, when he meets Zeus, it's all about him and the two women are kind of in the back. So I think it would have benefited a lot more from let's really live with her story a little bit more and explore also the cancer element, which kind of kicks us off. We then kind of only get little bits and pieces of it. We don't really quite live with it too much as well.
Elliot: Yeah, I was wondering if the movie suffered for me because knowing the depth, like the Gore the God butcher arc, and Thor God of Thunder is like 20 something issues, and then we've, uh, got Thor, then we've got the Mighty Thor, and then we got War of the Realm, so we've got so much of Jane Foster. And I was wondering if the movie suffered for me, knowing the depth of these stories and what the comics brought to it, I wonder if that took away. But I've read some reviews, too, people that don't read the comics. And I think the consensus from the people that I've talked to, and even my wife, who doesn't read any comics, was that there needed to be a little bit more movie like. We're missing some key scenes that needed to flush that out. But I agree with you. Rob too. The Thor part of it was my least favorite part. Um I don't really like goofy Thor. I wanted what Gito was saying before, a little bit of his arc, more of, um, going from the kind of lost, more adolescent fool back to the store that we met before who is starting to own his responsibility more. We get that a little bit the end, but it happens, too. I guess it's not earned as much because we're missing some scenes with that. And the same with Gore. We're missing a couple of scenes to set him up at the beginning where he's more of a threat, and we're missing a little bit of his motivation in the middle. We get a lot of really good, awesomely shot, creepy, creepy scenes of Gore establishing him as a scary villain, but not an imposing villain with a plan. Even though I think Christian Bale was one of the strongest parts of the movie besides the character of Jane.
Rob: They could have played too, I think with Gore is the god butcher, and you have Jane as kind of she's inherited these powers of a god, but she's not inherently a god. So there could have, I think, been some more conflict there in like, hey, Gore could have said to her, like, my battle is not with you. You should stay out of this. And that she can't, because this is the person that Chris Hemsworth Thor is the person that she loves. But I think all of that didn't quite mesh. And part of it is also the romantic relationship there, which doesn't quite work.
Guido: So, moving away from our critical analysis, let's talk about Jane MCU's character as Thor. Like, what's her motivation? What do we think makes her Thor? Let's talk about that, because that's what then I want to position against the what if alternate universe in a moment.
Elliot: What?
Guido: Go ahead. You start.
Elliot: I was just thinking of back to our conversation about the what if. I think there's some missed opportunities here. They established Doctor Jane Foster as I think it was an Avengers age of Ultron. She was so busy trying to she became almost this celebrity. They show that she's written a book and that she's really trying to solve the mysteries of the universe to benefit, like, her work and humanity. It would have been cool to see if she got blipped and if she was really trying to work on bringing people back, like what happened in The Blitz because it had to do with cosmic thing. And I think that we missed a little bit of her. What makes her different. We get echoes of it. We know that establishing team with Darcy, it was really fun to have Darcy in there. But that seems her two purposes. It introduces that she's got chemo, but she's trying to go this alone. That she very much is a stoic person and has led this life of kind of solitude and work. And I don't uh, know if they I have to think about it when I need to watch the movie again to really sense if that influences her sense of responsibility. As Thor in the movie, they use it as she's trying to find a cure. And Mueller called to her, I just don't know if we get and she uses the power. Like, she automatically tries to help and save people and becomes this uh, heroic individual we're missing.
Guido: Does she have heroic motivation?
Elliot: That's what I just don't know. Yes, she does at the end. I mean, she does sacrifice herself, but I just don't know.
Guido: She sacrifices herself in the end, but.
Elliot: Prior to the end, we're missing some scenes. Yeah. We just don't know why she's willing to I mean, she's going to go save the Asgardian children, uh, who are kidnapped. Like, that's a nobrainer. Like, who would not do that? Oh, no. Maybe there are people that wouldn't do it because, um, she still knows she's going to sacrifice her life, but she's also going to die of cancer, probably because she's got stage four cancer, breast cancer. So I don't know, you're sensing my confusion because I have to watch it again. And that might be a uh, downfall of the movie that we don't have a really clear arc. It's kind of lost to Thor's story a little bit. Um, what do you think.
Guido: And what makes Jane Thor different? Is she different from Odins and Thor?
Elliot: I think in this iteration, she is, because Odinson Thor is kind of a goofy I don't know how to describe him, kind of like a frat boy a little bit. Uh, that whole scene with the Guardians is him just being in taking credit for it and thinking that the Guardianship is his and that's his crew.
Rob: Is.
Guido: She more humble, but I don't see.
Rob: Her necessarily yeah, I, um, think we mhm need to.
Guido: But let's focus on what we do know about Jane and MCU. She's more reckless, for sure. Like, even, um, the scene with Zeus, she wants to just go grab the thunder, the lightning bolt, and get on with it. And Odinson is the one who's like, well, let me try this approach first. So she's more reckless, which doesn't exist in the comics. Interesting.
Elliot: Yeah. I think the characters are confusing right. Because I do definitely make her like I'm this kind of new hero with new powers, yet she also has kind of mastered and has a new trick with Mjolnir. Right. It can split up into the different stones, pieces of it and come back.
Guido: Which is a great adaptation, which is really cool.
Elliot: I don't know, I got to think a little bit more about it.
Rob: Yeah. I think before, um, this movie, or even at the start of this movie, what Odinson and Jane have in common, I think they both have significant egos that are there. I think they're both kind of obsessed with their work or who they are or their profession, whether it's superhero and prince or scientists. Like those really make them up. She says to the person right next to her, I wrote that book, and she takes the book from them, tears the page out. So there is that, I think. And of course, what you're saying, though, Elliot, is it's very apparent. It's very on the surface with the Chris Hemsworth's Thor, like, he's playing it at a very heightened way, while Natalie Portman is playing it in a very realistic way. And maybe if some of those qualities in that character, in the Jane character, had been elevated, we could have seen, hey, they're really not too far off from each other in many ways. They have to learn some of the same lessons.
Elliot: Yeah. And she's also just struck by, like she is kind of I hate using the word playing dress up, but she's kind of coming into her own, too, because she's like, well, let me workshop these different catchphrases. So there's a kind of a lightness to her, too, but to your point guitar, too. There's that scene when they're talking in New Asgard, and she's just like, oh, I'll be right back, and she goes away too. There was a lot of that. Like, I'm just going to go off kind of half cocked and not really thinking about what the plan is a lot. Yeah.
Guido: So let's start with, um, the Aaron run. Did the what if influence Jason Aaron.
Elliot: Because it's such a famous issue of what if? I can't help but think. Yes. Like, there was that possibility, and maybe Jason Aaron's pitch was, hey, what if we did this in a six one six? What if we actually Jane Foster become Thor like they did in that what if comic back in the day?
Guido: Well, there's a great letter that he wrote. There's a letter from Russell and a letter from him at mhm, the end of their runs. And they're really touching, actually, and talking a lot about never having fans who cried over a character or anything. But he does talk about that. It started with him and Axel Alonso talking about someone else carrying the mantle of Thor. And that he knew he wanted to do sort of a beta bill story where the hammer would change hands for a bit. That he had an idea about.
Speaker UNK: Uh.
Guido: Freya becoming a wielder of Mjolnir. But that as soon as they have this conversation. It clicked for Jane. And he'd already had Jane dealing with cancer. And the story just then suddenly appeared in his mind. So, yeah, I think it was in the Ethos. Like you said. He obviously knew that Jane was Thor in this what if issue, but I don't think there's any DNA of the story that became an influence at all.
Elliot: Now I'm getting confused with the mango and the what if. Or was that in the store?
Guido: Yes, the mangogs in the what if.
Rob: In the what if.
Guido: It, uh, does defeat right. So that does make me think that there could be some influence from the story. He might have gone back and read it and taken some pieces of it. But, um, I think the big difference is what you were saying, Elliot, in terms of your critique of the what if that Thoris is just Thor. There's no difference. There's no what Jane brings to it difference. And that is not true for Aaron or for the movie.
Speaker UNK: Right. True.
Guido: So I don't think the what if story influenced. I just think the what if concept influenced.
Rob: Yeah.
Guido: And what about the movie? Do we think the movie takes anything from the what if that it doesn't take just from the Aaron Run? I think the answer is no.
Rob: Yes. No. I don't think so.
Elliot: The movie is the granddaughter of the whatif inspired what if inspired. Jason Aaron in the movie is definitely inspired by Erin's Run.
Guido: Well, I, uh, have been the mighty Guido.
Rob: And I have been the unworthy rob. That is a wrap. Dear Watchers, thank you so much for listening, and, of course, an extra special thank you to our very special guest, Elliot. Elliot, please tell people where they can find you and why they should find you.
Elliot: I am on Twitter and Instagram for now. I'm starting to not use it as much, but Elliott, comic art all one word, and, uh, I'm intermittent. I use it a lot more in the summer, but I'll post all my commissions and sketches and things like that and fund fan art for the Deer Watchers podcast. I retweet a lot of stuff, too, from the comics world. So if you're into, um, any of this, please check it out. And if you want some, uh, art, please contact me. I'd love to do some stuff for comic fans.
Guido: Yeah, we actually have some things that we need to request of you in the pipeline from our Pride episode are dreaming up of some cool things.
Elliot: Yes.
Guido: Open for commission.
Elliot: I'm looking forward to doing that.
Guido: And the reading list, uh, for today's extensive reading is in the show notes. You can follow us on Twitter at deer watchers.
Rob: And please leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll, uh, be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.
Guido: In the meantime, in the words of keep pondering the possibilities.