Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

>> Rob: And because Guido is going through X Men withdrawal. We're back. Welcome to Dear Watchers, an omniversal comic book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

>> Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories, the worlds, and the X Men comics that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your X Men, Blue and Gold team leaders on this journey. Me, Ito, definitely.

>> Rob: well, I guess that makes me Gold Team, but I don't quite know what that is. Who is Gold and who is blue? Back in the day?

>> Guido: Well, blue was like the Cyclops team. Gold was the Storm team.

>> Rob: Okay. And you don't want to be on the Storm team.

>> Guido: I mean, it changed, over eras, but I don't know, Blue is just, was predominantly the, the Jim Lee adjective list. X Men. So that was like really the, the X Men that I'm rereading right now. Gold was like, uncanny where they started introducing other people. So don't know. Love them all. No, there's no better, there's no worse. Equal.

>> Rob: Isn't that like, the dress? Wasn't that the dress, blue and gold?

>> Guido: I think it was. That's so was there. Not sure. I'm sure people made X Men memes.

>> Rob: Was there an X Men meme? There had to have been. anyway, before we begin our trip into the X Men world yet again, Guido, what's new with us in our little section of the Multiverse?

>> Guido: Well, it's weird. It's gotten bigger. People who follow us online, and certainly people who listen to us, know that we have this whole other project. We have a store, we do screenings. But if you follow us online, you also saw we just launched a whole other podcast with that, that side of our lives. So it's kind of crazy that we scaled this one back to every other week and now we're going back up in volume of time on a microphone that people can listen to us in their headphones. So we would love for you to check us out over at the Sleepover Retro Countdown show. You can find it wherever you're listening to us now on Dear Watchers. And the different thing is we're also uploading videos of, Sleepover Retro Countdown Show. So people who have spent all these years just listening to us talk can now watch us talk too.

>> Rob: That's what the, the kids do these days. That's what I've been told. And, well, the nice thing about that podcast is you just had me read seven issues for this podcast, so that one is a lot less Research, which I love.

>> Guido: It is, and it's a little shorter. But please don't abandon us here on Dear Watchers. Stick with us here, but just add to your listening playlist.

>> Rob: And if you're joining this podcast, not the other podcast, but this podcast for the first time, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today. Origins of the story, exploring multiversity, and pondering possibilities. So thanks for coming along and remember.

>> Guido: Wherever you're listening, not only can you find our other show, but you can leave us a five star review and find us on social media earwatchers.

>> Rob: And with that, welcome to episode 172 and let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travels todays alternate universe. And today we are answering the astonishing question, what if Jean Grey was resurrected instead of Colossus in Joss Whedon's astonishing X Men run?

>> Guido: That's a loaded question. And this was a, this is a story to penetrate. We'll talk all about that. We've covered the X Men countless times. Obviously, it's my major fandom. So you can go to dearwatchers.com and click episodes and search our past episodes to see all the times we've covered X Men. But we have never touched this run, and I have been eager to. So the core run that we covered in this is from the prime Earth 616. And the alternate Earth is Earth 12224. It has never been visited again. This is its only appearance. And we'll get into all that in our second segment.

>> Rob: Well, before we do that, Guido, what is your background with this run of X Men? Cause you are our X Men connoisseur. For folks who don't know, you almost have every X Men comic ever published in your collection.

>> Guido: So this particular run was a really important one in my X Men reading history because when I was in college, I. It was the only time in my life that I stopped buying comics regularly, in part because I just couldn't afford to. So for probably three years of college, I wouldn't really read comics. I'd occasionally go buy some places. And, the year that I finished, here comes this announcement of, Joss Whedon writing X Men. And so it was a brand new day. This was the moment I started buying issues again. And then I actually spent about a year going back and rebuying every issue from the three years I was in college that I missed. So didn't end up, saving any money in the long run. But this was a really important moment in X Men. It revitalized the franchise. After the Grant Morrison run, which had really been a significant and important reboot, it started to taper off and needed another fresh start, new blood. And so I read it from start to finish. After Joss leaves, I kept reading Astonishing X Men. And I mean, since 2004, I've never looked back and there's never been another lull where I haven't read comics. And of course this was big because I'm a huge Joss Whedon fan.

>> Rob: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. You were already a big Buffy fan.

>> Guido: Yeah, obviously Buffy, Buffy, Serenity, Dollhouse, everything at this point had been out. Buffy had just wrapped up. Angel was still going on. So I was a huge Joss Whedon fan and very excited because for many years he's talked about his own fandom of X Men and the influence X Men has had over Buffy, in particular, Kitty Pryde. So the fact that he was going to be writing a team was, pretty extraordinary.

>> Rob: And had he also already been doing the Buffy and Angel comics at this point?

>> Guido: No, no, because he only did the sequel series. Those were the only ones he was involved in. Prior to this he had done an anthology book called Tales of the Slayers. But otherwise all of the Buffy comics are those kind of a canonical miniseries that most licensed tie ins have. And the canonical Season 8 Buffy series was not until after this.

>> Rob: Okay, so this was really, this was.

>> Guido: His first ongoing comic project. I'm pretty sure it was. So yeah. What about you? I mean, do you feel like you even knew about this before I introduced you to it?

>> Rob: No, not at all. I think somewhere in the back of my head, probably from hearing from you, I knew that Joss Whedon had worked on the X Men in some capacity. But no, I couldn't have told you that he worked on this. And I couldn't have said like, who was the team at this point? So no, this was very new to me. And you even had to give me a little bit of prep as to where this is falling in the whole X Men timeline.

>> Guido: Yeah. Well then that seems like it's time to dive right in.

>> Rob: Let's go into our origins of the story. Right now on this very show, you're gonna get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few few years ago. So this is astonishing. X Men number one through six from Marvel Comics came out July to December 2004. And this storyline, I guess is entitled Gifted Yep.

>> Guido: And it's written by Joss Whedon, penciled and inked by the late, great John Cassaday, colored by Laura Martin, lettered by Chris Eliopoulos. Edited by Mike Martz. You have a picture, of this John Cassaday arch hanging on the wall in the office that you sit in. Because it was previously my room before it became your office. It's hidden away to the right. You can't really see it because I.

>> Rob: Was going to say, wait a second, I don't even know where it is.

>> Guido: I know exactly where it is because it's signed by John Cassaday, and I was very lucky to get that piece. And anyway, Astonishing X Men number one through six. This is a reboot, if you will. There had been an Astonishing X Men title twice prior to this. One was part of the Age of Apocalypse. This was one of the titles that they used to create these alternate titles. And then there was a miniseries after that. But this is the first ongoing volume of a book called Astonishing X Men. So, for those who haven't read this series, first of all, what is wrong with you? But more importantly, the team that this consists of is Emma Frost, essentially, as the team lead. Xavier's out of the picture at this point. So Emma's leading the school, and she is joined by her now lover and partner, Cyclops. And they are joined by Beast, Wolverine and Kitty Pryde. And that's essentially the team up until the big reveal of this, this storyline.

>> Rob: Yeah. So where had some of the. Like Storm, for example, some of the other people that we super associate with the X Men, Rogue, Gambit, they were just out of the picture at this point?

>> Guido: No, they were in other titles. So this was one of the, times where they sort of split people off in different ways. This might have been the era. I mean, Storm might have been at Black Panther at this point. So she was with t'. Challa. so that might have been how they explained that. But this was obviously only one of the X Men titles, Astonishing. And so this was focusing on that team at the school. And so before we get into the big plot that's especially relevant to our multiverse today, what do you think reading this overall for the first time?

>> Rob: Yeah, I really enjoyed it a lot. Very well written. So much so that I did look a bit ahead. Knowing me, that I wasn't probably gonna sit down and necessarily read tons of future issues, but I was like, sit.

>> Guido: And read the omnibus.

>> Rob: But, yeah, I think the thing that really stands out here. Well, two things, I think John Cassaday's art is really fantastic. And also, of course, just Joss Whedon's writing, it really crackles. And you mentioned Kitty Pryde before. And I think especially having that character kind of re enter the story at the beginning, having been away from the X Men. So we're seeing a lot of this storyline, in some ways through that character's eyes. And also having her way of speaking be very similar in many ways to Buffy, or the kind of whole Buffy verse, like she's very sarcastic. So I think that definitely. Because obviously there's some big, heavy, dark ideas that are at play in these first six issues. And having that sense of humor as a counterbalance, I think was a great idea and certainly something that Joss had brought that kind of. That kind of push pull to so much of his work.

>> Guido: Well, I think you can. Yeah, you can hear his extraordinary writing and character voice in Emma and Kitty and all of them, really. Yes. But definitely the sarcasm. The other thing I noticed, and, it's probably one of the earlier times where it's done consistently. Writers might have done this because Marvel's always been set in the real world, but. But Joss is known for. On Buffy really changing the way that on tv, for the most part, TV show worlds existed, separate from our world. And so he was really famous for making pop culture references where the characters watch Star Trek. Right. Like that kind of thing. And it doesn't seem that novel now, but in 1997, it was quite novel to have characters on a TV show referring to other TV shows or movies. And he does that here. Like, Kitty Pryde comments on the Sorting Hat, when she gets to school. And so, like, I love that aspect of it. Like, he's really pulling it into our world, our references, our way of speaking. And so I think that's one thing he does really well and that shines here.

>> Rob: What's interesting with that, though, too, is. And I think the same thing is about. With Buffy. Even though this is now over 20 years ago, which is probably hard to believe, it still doesn't feel dated when you have those references. Maybe because something like Harry Potter is almost like wizard of, Oz now for us. Right. Like, it's not of a specific time. You can kind of reference it. So there's not, like, if they were suddenly mentioning something that came out directly in 2004 and reading political Election or something.

>> Guido: Totally from that year. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Rob: And it's the same thing, I think when you watch Buffy, it's pop culture references that, Pop culture, but. But timely. Timeless.

>> Guido: And so you mentioned how dark this is for people who haven't, read it. Again, what is wrong with you? But what's going on in this story is a few things. One, we find out that Kavita Rao has developed a cure, potentially to being a mutant. So this plot and character are lifted directly into X Men 3 the Last Stand. Funny enough, the rest of this storyline, sadly, is not and should have been, but that piece is. And we learn that she's gotten the cure from aliens in a place called Break World. And they're led by Ord. And Ord starts to battle and sort of go rogue. In this, Beast is engaging because Beast had the secondary evolution. He's more cat like. And so he's really struggling with his mutant powers. So he's engaging Kvitarao. And then the big, big moment in this is that they're fighting Ord. They know that there's a M mutant that he's been experimenting on to develop the cure that he gives to her. And of course, I love the red herring that Emma thinks it's Jean because Jean always was the one who gets resurrected. And so she thinks it is because Beast only says, like, I recognize this DNA. But it turns out this is the return of Colossus. So Colossus had been dead in our world for 10 years, sacrificing himself to cure the legacy virus 10 years earlier. So, of course, narratively, it even works well that now he's being used to create a cure for mutant dumb. Like, it's a really good way of bringing him back. This idea that he did not, in fact die. He was abducted and experimented on for all these years. So what do you think of that? I know you didn't have the emotional impact, not reading it with him being dead for 10 years, but what do you think of that? That plot?

>> Rob: Yeah, I mean, like you said, I didn't. I'm sure if I had been reading it in real time, soap opera style, it definitely would have hit me much more. But what I think makes so much sense going back to what I was just saying is that Colossus Kitty have this relationship and she is kind of our de facto main character. So I think it actually makes a lot of sense that because that it is a character that she is going. It relates to in that way rather than, oh, it's going back to a Scott story. All these things that we've kind of seen before, it puts her at the forefront. And also I think in some ways this same thing with Buffy, like, the experience of a younger person in love and the conflict that is coming from that.

>> Guido: And, it's incredible to me thinking about this compared with the wedding issue for the two of them, which, as you know, is one of my favorite comics of all time. There are these three pages in this with John Cassaday's art and Joss's writing that are just incredible, I think, where she is being shot at on the spaceship, and the bullet passes through her, and you just see it cling off of metal, which is perfect. And then she's looking behind her and discovers Colossus standing there. And then there's a page, with no words whatsoever, of her staring at him while all of these bullets are passing through her and hitting him. And he runs through her to go defeat the people that are shooting at them. And it's just like, you can see it. You can see it, you can feel it. It's a movie. And that's the other aspect of this that you and I have talked a lot about with Jonathan Hickman's work. And I think this is very proto Hickman in that, like, this is the mcu. You can see why Joss was hired to be the MCU architect. And it's all here. It's here. And this is years before he started to do that for Marvel Studios. But it's really cinematic. It's got these great moments that you can just know how they're gonna make you feel. You can imagine an audience responding to them. They're visual, but there's so much depth in them, regardless of the words that are being spoken or not. I mean, it's so jumps off the page.

>> Rob: Yeah. And even in that going back to what we were saying, there still moments. Because, of course, you have this emotional return of Colossus, and there's a heaviness to that. But then at the same time, you have. I think it's Emma who's like, wow, he's really kept in shape, or something like that. So there's all these still. These ways that he is defusing the. This heavy story with humor.

>> Guido: Yes, I totally agree. Yeah. And mainly through Emma. She is extraordinary. I think that Emma's voices, through Joss Whedon and Kieran Gillan and Jonathan Hickman, I think those three have really just turned her into something else. And this is really kind of the start of it was Joss's run of her. Grant Morrison has a good, good way of making her sassy and snarky, but I think Joss gets her sassy snarky and heart in here quite a bit, especially around his. Her relationship with Scott and her jealousy. At one point, she says, like, you know, it's impossible to compete with a dead woman. And so you really just feel for her. She's not the anti hero anymore. She's now really. This is where she moves squarely into hero.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: And I love that.

>> Rob: And you could say maybe there's even like a Cordelia Chase element to her there. And I was thinking, I. I wonder if this was done on purpose, but when you have Buffy, you basically have the four core. Four kind of core characters that are always there. Then you have Spike coming in, you have Cordelia coming in, and they. But they keep it pretty tight. And I'm wondering if when Joss was working on this, he was like, you know, I can't have 12 characters. That's way too much. So I'm gonna get this, like, group of five and, like, he's gonna have a relationship with her, and it's gonna work a lot easier that way. Of course, we're getting like, a Beast versus Wolverine fight. We get a Wolverine versus Cyclops fight. So we get all those dynamics in here. But I think that definitely I could see the connection between this and Buffy. It's like, okay, you can't have more than like, five or six people, tops. Yeah.

>> Guido: And I think some of that is because his. His writing, not only in the voice, but also in the plotting, is so character based. Everything about it is the character, which is what makes it so timeless and so good. And so I think you can only do that when you. With a smaller cast, because you need a lot of time with each of these characters ultimately.

>> Rob: Now, you said before you had stepped away from comics a bit before you returned to this, and this was kind of your gateway back in. And of course, you're always X Men are the top of your list. How do you feel about this being an entry point? Because for me, as, someone who's a much more casual reader and has only read these here and there, I think the X Men might be the most intimidating of all the comic books franchises. Just because, as I just said, there's so many characters, so many people who are dead, and then they're coming back to life. And it, seems much more complicated than. Than like, Batman or something like that, where it's like, it's not changing all that much. But X Men, it's like it is a soap opera.

>> Guido: Well, and it is definitely a soap opera, and in the best way possible. And I think the other thing that distinguishes it, at least from historic Batman, I'm sure over the last 20 years, there's a lot more character depth and evolution in Batman, but it is a soap opera in the sense that I hope. And, you'll have to confirm this. I think someone could pick this story up and read it as a little bit of an entry point, but obviously, it also is that much better and that much richer and that much more interesting if you know some of the references. M. And now you're someone who knows some of the references, but not all of them. And I'm someone who generally knows all of the references. So I think just, like, when people talk about how do I enter the MCU at this point, I think. Or if someone were to, like, start watching Days of Our Lives at this point, something like that. Like, you just kind of have to start. And then if you like this, there are other places to go that'll keep enhancing your experience and keep. Keep bringing you more and more of that. I think there are definitely moments in X Men that are impenetrable, but I don't think this is one of them. I think that because he has such a clear and distinct voice, I think someone who's never read X Men and is like, where do I start? Could start here. What do you think?

>> Rob: Yeah, I think so. I do think you want to read maybe a little Wikipedia entry of where you. What happened right before. And one thing I appreciated here, and this was at one of the panels I went to at, New York Comic Con, someone was advocating for this, which is that each issue does have a recap of a previous issue. And someone was advocating that, oh, I'm in favor of. Every comic should have this. And I certainly agree. And I was reading these in quick succession. But still, it's very helpful to, like, go back and just skim that paragraph. It's like, okay, this is everything that happened. we're dealing with a lot of characters, a lot of backstory. Okay, now I can go on. So I'd almost like one of those. Maybe at the start of the first issue. That's, like, even a page or two that tells me, okay, I know they can't say Colossus is dead. That would be a big. That would spoil the big reveal. But maybe a little something along those lines, because I didn't know. Like, I knew. I knew Jean was dead from, here. But, like, do I need to know why she's dead? I don't quite know where Xavier is at this point. None of that's stopping you from enjoying it. But my mind was like, okay, maybe the biggest thing here actually was the villain and this alien race, which feels a little incongruous to me, to the rest of the.

>> Guido: Well, you get more time with him, later, if you keep reading. So. And he's a new character, that Joss.

>> Rob: well, and that was my biggest question was like, is this a character I'm supposed to know? Is this, like a race or planet I'm supposed to know? And then I did. See, I'm not. But I. I wish maybe that had been a little bit more. Eased me, held my hand a little bit with that character, that whole planet. Because I. I never like, necessarily, except for the Phoenix Force. I never love, like, the X Men when they're dealing with aliens as much. My personal preference.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah, I agree. All right, well, I think we've covered everything in this incredible first six issues of an incredible run. But what if we changed one of these details?

>> Rob: Well, it's time to explore some multiversity.

>> Guido: I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if?

>> Rob: And this is what if Astonishing X Men Number One from February 2010, and it's entitled and asking the question, what if Ord resurrected Jean Grey instead of Colossus? I know what you're all saying. Who is Ord? Well, yes, you have to read the comic.

>> Guido: Yeah, well, so this is from a series of what ifs. This was the era where for a few years, they would do what if one shots, and they would do them based kind of on events and kind of on other, ah, moments, modern moments in particular. And so this was one of them, this what if Astonishing X Men number one. There are multiple stories in here. One relates to the. The later end of Joss Whedon's run, but our focus is this one, which is written by Jim McCann. Now, Jim McCann is a comic book writer who got his start in soap operas in One Life to Live, and he's someone I'm a fan of. He's worked on New Avengers. He's worked on Hawkeye and Mockingbird. He did a bunch of these what ifs at that moment. But he also, is someone who created what is the name he did Return of the Dapper Man. He created a few comics on his own outside of Marvel and dc. And honestly, I haven't heard his name in some years. So maybe he went back into tv. But, he's a good writer. This is penciled by Ibrahim Roberson and David Yarden. And it's inked by David Yarden with a paint kind of aesthetic that sort of very early aughts moment of things looking painted but being digital, digitally sheened. And it's colored by Kai Spanith and edited by Justin Gabry and A.J. fiero. So in this, to give a quick summary for people who haven't read it here on Earth, 12224, we get pretty much the same exact setup of Astonishing up into the moment that they are fighting with Ord, the moment where in the comics Colossus would have been revealed, and all of a sudden it is Jean who's alive. Now. Then a whole lot happens, obviously, around Emma and Scott, but there's a whole set of information that you would have been missing from this comic that happened in a series called Phoenix Warsong, which was the sequel to End M Song. So at this point, to give you a little background and then you can talk about whether or not it worked for you not to have this background, Jean's been dead. It's a big deal. She's supposedly going to be dead forever at this point. Permanently dead. They do a great, great story. Greg Pack does X Men Phoenix War Song. End Song brings her back sort of as a spirit for a moment, but then puts a nail in that coffin, literally. Then you get X Men Warsong, which tells the story of the Stepford Cuckoos, these characters who were created during Grant Morrison's run, who are clones of Emma's, and they each end up taking in a part of the Phoenix Force. So that's an important part of this plot because in this plot, Jean is resurrected without the Phoenix Force, and the Phoenix Force, of course, sort of awakens. And through Cassandra Nova manipulating Emma Frost looks to come and take Jean back, if you will. And that leads to the final conflict in which Kitty Pryde murders Emma by ripping her heart out.

>> Rob: Yeah, it's very, Temple of Doom.

>> Guido: Yeah. The Phoenix Force has consumed her. She has killed Beast at this point. Yes. And that's essentially the plot of this. This what if. So, okay, you had none of that information. I did not give it to you. How did you enjoy this? How were you able to access this? Missing a huge chunk of the lore, I think I.

>> Rob: That I honestly couldn't even. Didn't even know I was missing something with the lore there, because, plus, I think in some aspect, I just chalked it up to. I don't really know all the ins and outs of the Phoenix story, and that is many, many years of. Of storytelling. So I was like, okay, there's the Phoenix. I know Gene's had it. It's, it's seems to be gone now. It's, it's somewhere else. Like, I, yeah, I didn't feel like I needed that aspect to enjoy the rest of this story.

>> Guido: That's good. So did you enjoy it?

>> Rob: Yeah, I, I, I, I think so. I think it's an int. Well, I think the most interesting aspect, which is kind of working its way through the actual Astonishing X Men until we find out that it's, it's the Colossus, is what would happen to Emma and Cyclops's relationship if Jean was actually alive. So I think it's a very interesting. That love triangle that we're then introduced to here in this story is quite interesting. It's like, oh, you're fear in a relationship with this one person, but then your ex wife comes back from the dead. Like, are you still married to her? Are you still in love with her? They're both psychic, so you've got that kind of parallel between the two of them. Then of course, you have Emma, like, getting the Phoenix Force in this story. So, yeah, I think, I mean, you.

>> Guido: Might not remember, like, he had a psychic affair with Emma while Gene was still alive too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, I think I want to like this more than I do. And some of it, I think, has to do with the art breakdowns. I wonder if having two pencilers meant it was maybe rushed. It's also, obviously it's sharing real estate, so I do wonder if there's a. I don't know, there's something about it that maybe it didn't have enough time. Because I think some of the action, especially early on and comparing it to like, those John Cassaday pages, not even art wise, but just breakdown wise, like narrative wise, they're rushed and you can't follow what's happening and the action. And you never have a moment of Jean's return. Like she literally is just on a normal panel. Like she's just all of a sudden standing there on a panel. There's no, like, zoom in, nothing. So there is a aspect of this visual storytelling that it does not work for me and feels a little rushed and would have, I think, helped it.

>> Rob: Yeah, I agree. I think the art in general, and maybe this is compared to the very beautiful art of the actual Astonishing, and reading these so back to back was a bit more of a letdown there. But I think the core story of this, of this love triangle and there's been Always so many love triangles throughout X Men history is a very interesting one. Regardless, it does put. As I was saying, I think the emphasis in the actual Astonishing X Men is more like Kitty is our kind of de facto lead in many ways and she's definitely pushed way to the side here for the Cyclops Emma Jean relationship. So I think in many ways there. The what if Question fundamentally changes the whole setup of this tea because Kitty is no longer our emphasis.

>> Guido: Yeah, that is true. Would you want to read, having read six issues of Joss's Astonishing. Let's say Joss had resurrected Jean, would you want to read that that run more or less than the Colossus resurrection run?

>> Rob: it's hard to say because I don't really have any actual relationship with Colossus and Kitty as a characters. If I did, I would imagine I go, oh yes, I want to see this relationship between the two of them. Not knowing that I'd probably go with the Jean Emma M. Scott relationship. But I, and I do think there could have been a much. There could have been a very interesting story that went on for many more issues exploring, well, what does this mean when you're torn between like this person who was dead and now this person who you're living with now and that the fact that both of these characters have so sim. So many similarities. I guess as you said, it was kind of explored with him having this psychic affair with her in the past, but here it very much comes down to like, where is he going to sleep at night? Like there. It's even a line like, Are we gonna have to have new sleeping arrangements? And that is an interesting story. And like, how does Jean feel about all of this? Like when you're coming back from the dead, like you might not want to just re. Enter the same relationship.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I agree. There could be interesting character stuff that maybe if Joss had done, would have also been as great as his astonishing run was.

>> Rob: And in fact, didn't they explore. Wouldn't you say they explored some of these ideas actually on the x Men, 97 cartoon, only with Madeline Prior in the place.

>> Guido: Why this has echoes of that from Inferno, which is from the comics. So yes, it's in X Men 97, but it was also from the comics that there is this question of. Because in the comics Scott does fall in love with Jean's clone, Madeline Pryor. So there is this question of who is he in love with and why and what do you do? And now she's back. And how do I deal with that? And so it's a question that keeps coming up for Jean as the notorious Resurrection character. So it makes sense that McCann is exploring it here in this way and.

>> Rob: Was informed where was Inferno in relation to these stories time wise.

>> Guido: That's from the late, 80s.

>> Rob: Okay. Okay. So maybe. Yeah. So that's also making me realize why. Why Joss Whedon went in the direction that he did. Because.

>> Guido: Right.

>> Rob: It would start to feel repetitive.

>> Guido: That is true. Yeah, that is.

>> Rob: And maybe that's why also it works for McCann and here, even though I was saying, yes, I could read it more, I'm saying that from the perspective of having read these other storylines where something very similar happened. So I guess to McCann and like the what if team, it's like, okay, this makes sense. One issue, really. One part of an issue. We're gonna get this story out, but for a continuing storyline, it's already been done. So let's explore these other characters instead.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah. And by the time Gene comes back for good, which is like 2019. 2018. 2019. Scott's not with Emma anymore. They have a good, long relationship, but they're not together. So you don't have to deal with it again at that point. But more on that another day. We have another segment.

>> Rob: Yes. Let's wrap up by pondering some possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted? Averted.

>> Guido: Averted.

>> Rob: So, Guido, what are we talking about for pondering possibilities?

>> Guido: Well, there would have been a few actually comic book material ways to follow up this story, because interestingly, Emma, goes on to have the Phoenix Force in her in Avengers vs X Men in 616. So that is three years after this what if? And so it's just neat that maybe there was some influence from Jim McCann in that. Maybe it's more to do with the fact that this character, who's in proximity to Cyclops, makes sense as a telepath to possess the Phoenix Force. But it is funny to me that she goes on to be a key part of the story in Avengers vs X Men, in which five different characters possess the Phoenix Force and she's one of them. But we're not reading that right now. We'll need to read it eventually, and we'll need to read it before the movie comes out, because chances are that movie is Avengers vs X Men. So that'll be fun. And so I guess for this final segment, I know we often talk about movie predictions and things we want to see on screen, but it's been Some years since we've done that with X Men. And the whole conversation has changed now because we know it's happening. We know it's going to be post Secret wars reboot, whatever extent reboot that is of the mcu. We also know the Fox X Men world is not gone. It is here. And in the event of X Men.

>> Rob: Previous predictions.

>> Guido: Yes. So I guess let's start with, I mean, the answer is yes. Joss's run could be a blueprint for an X Men movie. But do you, do you agree?

>> Rob: Yeah, totally.

>> Guido: I guess it's hard because you're starting in the middle of the story. Probably that's been the struggle with developing this script and why it could have taken so many years too is where do you start this story? Movies can sometimes work really well and media ray or whatever right in the middle of a story. But fancy, it's a film term, that's why I'm using it. but I don't know, do people want an origin? There's also the eternal questions with X Men, like do you put them at the school or not put them at the school, obviously. Now do you put the monkey and not put them on Krakoa? How do you deal with them when there are all of these iconic eras that you're not gonna necessarily go through or start at the beginning of? So would Joss's be an entry point? I don't know.

>> Rob: Well, I think one thing that you could get from this, as we just were talking about before, is focusing on a very finite group of people. And I'm even thinking going to like the Guardians of Galaxy. You've got like four, five characters, although one of them just says like his own his. It's a talking plant. So like there's like a pretty small group there, versus like if you're starting with Krakoa era, where you could have hundreds of characters at your disposal. And maybe this gives an opportunity to really hone in on a few key people and see what their relationship is and then go from there.

>> Guido: The other thing this era could do if they wanted to is I guess if we assume M at this point that the Fox world is a legacy world. Right. It's. I think a few years ago it would have felt like a long ago little thing, but because they've brought it back through Deadpool and now through Doomsday and all of this, it feels like a solidified legacy foundation. You could say that's the school story.

>> Guido: And you could start with Astonishing, for example, without an Xavier. Don't start with an Xavier. Start with Emma leading the school, which has happened plenty of times in the history of the comics. And you can assume people know who Xavier is, know who Xavier School is because of the Fox movies. But you're starting in a different world with a different set of characters, plus, but still connected to comics that we know.

>> Rob: Yeah. Plus we're gonna have Xavier one more time at least as Patrick Stewart in Doomsday.

>> Guido: you can sort of move past that character, which I think is an important part of evolving X Men stories. So maybe this run is something to mine. Yeah. And I wouldn't be surprised if they do mine it.

>> Rob: One thing I think I'd like to see in movies are Emma and Kitty getting real proper portrayals. And I think you could say this about a lot of characters. And we saw Elliot Page in conversation in New York Comic Con and he might have done a very good job. I don't really remember, but I don't think you're getting the Sark Kitty that is here. And certainly Emma, as portrayed in the one film that that character appears in is not at all like this character on here. And when you think about especially the, how prevalent both of those characters are, the fact that Emma was leading the team here, having a relationship with Scott, that, that Kitty was such a core character for so many years and was like the way really an entry point for the reader in many cases that neither of them have really gotten proper film portrayals. In many ways. I think like both of them would be very ripe and maybe shake it up. It's like, okay, we've, we've. I know you have to have some of these other characters, but maybe we can focus on these new characters that will feel very fresh.

>> Guido: Yeah, I think that's great. They have such a good antagonistic mentor, mentee relationship. They ultimately, I mean, you're right. Emma has led to the team multiple times. She has her own team in the 80s of students. But then here, Grant Morrison runs, she's involved here, she's leading the school, goes on to do that. And now this is over the last 20 years. So yeah, we can squarely put her in that role. And then in the Krakoa era, Kitty starts going by Captain Kate at that point has her own team and is leading them. And so both of these characters have such a vast arcs and so much evolution and we've never seen any of that on screen. We've seen incredibly two dimensional, short, brief things, which is true for a lot of the characters, but certainly These two, you're right, might be up there in terms of the most inversely related on screen and comic book appearances.

>> Rob: Yes, I think so. Yeah. and. And it would relieve you from having to overcome. Like Professor Xavier, for example, has had two actors who have given pretty iconic performances, really well liked. So, yeah. So let's move away from having to even deal with that kind of struggle and maybe focus on Emma, who is going to be much more of a blank slate for most people.

>> Guido: Yeah, Yeah, I love that. I really am. Now, I'm hoping this is the run that we're using for the template. I think it's a good balance. It balances the. The kid side, the adult side too, which you didn't get to see so much in these six, although you saw it a little bit with, like the one person who wants the cure. So, like, there's always these stories with the kids, but the focus is the adults, which I think would make for a good movie, too, can have plenty of mutant young people around and tell little stories with them. But at the end of the day, you'll get the most drama from the lives of these adults.

>> Rob: Yeah, agreed.

>> Guido: All right, well, yes, you're right. We needed more X Men in the world. I needed more X Men on my nightstand. We all could use more X Men all the time. But for now, that is a wrap. Dear Watchers, thank you for listening. I have been your blue team leader, Guido.

>> Rob: I have been your gold team leader, Rob.

>> Guido: the reading list is in the show notes. Follow us online at Dear Watchers and.

>> Rob: Leave us a five star review wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse. Sam.