Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

I just woke up from a horrible nightmare. I

was in this big, creepy factory, and there

was this scary little man that came up to me and

said, welcome to Dear Watchers, an Omniversal comic

book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse

where we are.

Traveling through the very long intros that Rob

has and the stories and worlds that make up an

omniverse of fictional realities we all love.

And your watchers on this journey are

me, Guido. Back, Guido. I'll be back,

Guido.

And some people call me the Space Man. Some people call me

the gangster of love. Some people call me Maurice. But you can just

call me Rob.

I don't know what that is.

That's the Joker song by the Steve Miller

Band.

Thrilling. I'm, curious how many of our listeners will know that

reference.

Everyone will know that reference.

No, I think people are more like me than like you,

but we'll see.

Get into our references, Guido. What's

going on in our little section of the Multiverse?

Last week was a fantastic episode

with our guest, Jason Ayers. So if you

skipped last week or if this is your first time listening,

go back and listen. We revisited the Age of

Apocalypse with our longtime

fan, longtime patron, supporter,

longtime friend, Jason Ayers.

And you should hear it.

Yes, we got to see that he is your biggest

rival for collecting all of the X Men

books.

Yes. And with his amount of experience in the

WWE Ring, I guess I should be scared of him,

but I'm not. Like we said, we're a team

up, not a supervillain

arch nemesis situation like we have today.

And our summer giveaways summer is not yet over,

though it feels like it, because Labor Day has passed.

Not here in New York City. It's 90 something degrees,

very hot.

So we do have this one final giveaway, and

you'll have to listen if today is the

day. And the last thing is, we're about a

month from New York, Comic Con, and I just wanted to say that because it's very

exciting.

I just got a notification that my

rat plush, my pizza rat plush has

shipped.

Oh, well, you hadn't gotten your badge yet, so let's hope they ship

together. Otherwise, you're going to be sitting home with the plush

while I'm at Comic Con.

Well, and while you are at Comic Con, I will tell

us where our journey is today. We have

three sections of our multiversal story,

origins of the Story, exploring multiversity, and

pondering possibilities. So thank you for joining us

today.

And remember, you can leave a review wherever you're listening.

And if you want to be a supporter like Jason Ayers is, go

to our coffee at, Deerwatchers.com and click Join.

And with that, Dear Watchers, welcome to episode

114, and let's check out what's happening in the

Omniverse with our travel to today's alternate

universe.

And today, we emerge from our VAT of

noxious chemicals to find out the answer to the

question, what if Joker accidentally killed

Batman and ended up working at Wayne

Enterprises?

So we are talking night terrors.

This is our first time talking about the very

recent 2023 DC Comics event.

Let's call it Earth KT. and

it's oddly like Age of Apocalypse, which I was

thinking as I was reading it. And we've been covering AOA for

a while. So night terrors the DC

Comics event. I'll give you a very brief

background before we dig in because it's not super important,

though. I loved this event and I think a lot of

people who read it did too. People who didn't read it were

upset that it was happening because it suspended the regular

titles, just like AOA. So all of

DC Publishing paused, these renumbered new

titles started, and the event spans

nearly 50 issues, although the vast majority of it

are standalone. I'll describe it in a moment. It

was probably, in part, a, chance to give

editorial teams and creative teams on the

core books a chance to get ahead of deadlines. I wonder if it

was even timed to San Diego Comic Con. It used to

be years ago that there was always something

in the summer. This is why Marvel started Assistant Editors

Month, because everyone was going to San Diego Comic Con

and they wouldn't be able to reach their deadlines during that time.

So they always had something happening. And I wonder if that

was part of this. But regardless, this was a great

event. And what it was was spearheaded by

Joshua Williamson and Howard Porter. So

art style really influenced by Porter's work

on the core book, which is a four issue miniseries, writing

and architecture by Williamson. The series sees

a new character, Insomnia, put the whole world to

sleep while he searches for the Nightmare Stone,

which is hidden in someone's dreams. So

each two issue miniseries is

basically a standalone horror series taking place in

a hero or villain's nightmare. Some are more

connected to the core title and the ongoing story, but

most are pretty standalone that can be really

quite fun. And I loved this event and

was excited that we decided to

choose one of the Nightmares as a multiverse.

Well, I haven't read this event other than the two issues

that we're going to discuss. But I think I would like reading more

of this because for me, reading these ongoing titles

is so daunting. So the idea to just

dive in and get a nice two issue

miniseries, that's very appealing.

Yeah, that's why I think it's such a well constructed,

accessible event, even though 47

issues sounds overwhelming. It's like you actually

could skip the main title. Although I actually think the

framing story with the Nightmare Stone is really good,

really interesting stuff. There is actually a

big, high stakes thing that happens

at the end that I won't spoil because it is very recent

within the matter of the last few weeks that this happened. But a

major character dies. So

it's a great event. I think it's a really well done event.

But we are not here to talk so much about Night

Terrors.

We are to talk about a

terrifying character. Though it

is the Joker character who

I think we've talked a little bit about. I don't know, not too

much. I'm trying to think on the show.

For being I don't think he's in the else worlds that we've

covered. It's interesting. He's not

in any of the Batman else worlds that we have covered so

far. So I don't know that we've even.

talked about some one bad days. But of

course Joker is not in those because it's kind of inspired

by Joker. So yeah, we've

not really covered him. But Guido, what is your background

with the CPOC, the clown

prince of Crime?

Well, I think like every other person in the

world, everyone knows who the Joker

is.

The who? Wait, who are we covering?

Joker, I'd venture a guess. He's

got to be the most famous supervillain. I can't

imagine there's a villain

more famous even in the era of like a

Thanos or something. I still think

Joker is probably the most

recognizable, most

well known villain. And

so I think like a little more

than most people. As a comic fan,

I've read a lot of Joker. I've

never been a huge Batman fan, but I obviously read

Death of the Family as it was coming out. Major event as

a child. So, I've read some of the major

seminal stories. Read, some of the

more modern stuff like Death in the

Family, or of the Family, whichever is what's the more

recent one. Read some of the big Joker

storylines from James Tinian and the more

recent runs. But I don't read Joker's

Solo title. There is one going on right now which we'll talk

briefly about. So I'm just not a huge

fan. And then I've seen every multimedia

version like you have, like most people have.

So everything from Batman

66 through the Animated Series and

all the different movie iterations. And

of course what we will talk about the version that's in the

Harley Quinn Animated Series. So I'd say I know the

Joker pretty well, but I'm not an expert on

his origin, his retconned origin that's been

modified a lot over the years or anything like that.

And what about for you?

My first joker was definitely Caesar

Romero in Batman 66.

Queer Cuban actor sounds for sound like anyone you

know? Definitely. He was my first Joker

and then Jack in the Batman

89 movie. That was the first really the

only movie. My one grandparents had, on VHS. So I

coveted that VHS with that sleek

cover. And I was always such a huge Jack

Nicholson fan from a was really

those two were really my jokers. And then, of course, Heath ledger. I

never read him too much in the comics. And

there's some really big Joker events in the

comics, like Killing Joke that I hate

to say I have never read. And

I always gravitated towards the Riddler and

towards the Penguin when I was actually reading the

actual comic book iterations.

So I'm not as familiar with some of the

Joker in the comics. And then to your mean, we

just had the Batman reintroduced on

screen and they couldn't even get through one movie

without basically introducing the Joker.

Okay, we have so many Jokers. It really

is if you have Batman, I guess they feel like you

need to have the Joker.

Oh, and of course, the only version of Joker I haven't

seen is his eponymous solo

movie, which I refuse to see. But you did see.

I have seen that movie. And, it's okay. And you watch Kings

of Comedy instead.

And I don't think I'm going to end up seeing Harley Lady Gaga,

but we'll see when that comes out eventually.

So onward and let us laugh all.

The way to our first segment origins of the

Story.

Right now on this very show, you're going to

get the answer to all your questions.

Our amazing story begins a few

years ago.

And first up, we're going back to almost the

beginning of Batman. It's the, Batman

number one from DC Comics from March

1940.

This is written by Bill Finger. Penciled by Bob Kane.

Inked by Jerry Robinson. Lettered by Jerry Robinson.

And the editor is Whitney Ellsworth. But before

we get into Joker, since it's our first time

focusing on the clown prince of crime,

let's read a great intro from his

75 year anniversary hardcover collection from

back in 2014.

Much like the Joker's fictional origins, the origin

of the character itself is something of a mystery.

We know that in 1940, artists Bob Kane and Jerry

Robinson, as well as writer Bill Finger were creating the

first issue of Batman and needed to find a new opponent for

their vigilante. Previously, Batman and Robin

battled mad scientists and gang leaders. But

thus far, none were a match for

our hero. Then a mysterious

criminal called the Joker entered the scene.

Pale and grimacing, with green hair and a purple

suit. The clown prince's appearance was a combination

of several influences a Coney Island amusement park

emblem that resembled the smiling criminal

a playing card given to Bob Cain by Jerry

Robinson and most notably, the makeup worn by

actor Conrad WEIT in the 1928

silent film adaptation of Victor Hugo's The Man

Who Laughs.

After his successful first appearance, the Joker would soon become a

recurring enemy. Topping a list of criminals Batman and

Robin faced. The first years of the Joker

showed a murderer without remorse. Here, readers saw the first

traces of the clown's gigantic ego as well as

his deadly gas acting on his victim's facial

muscles, freezing their mouths in a horrible

grin. But after his first dozen appearances,

the Joker underwent a personality change.

He became, instead a flamboyant bank robber with an

original gimmick for each crime wave. The

Joker's last murder for several years took place in

1942, wherein the clown bumped off

several of the city's comedians. Symbolically,

his next appearance showed him surviving the electric chair.

In a way, he was reborn with a new personality and would not

return to his murderous ways for several decades.

And of course, the mystery they're referring to in this

intro is the credit controversy

always around Bob Kane and anything

Bob Kane has touched. So there's lots of

stories online. Who knows what's true about whether Jerry

Robinson had first drawn a sketch of a Joker

card or whether Bill Finger had come up with the

concept. And then Jerry Robinson drew this

design and what, if any, role Bob

Kane played in any of this at any point. So,

who knows? But the Joker was surely created

by these three people, without a doubt.

And it is remarkable, just on his

appearance, how little he has

changed. I know the Joker. There's always some

variation on his look that has kind of

come over time. But the fundamentals of

his look the green hair, the red lips, the white face,

the purple suit, and even that kind of

slender, creepy, Conrad Vite like

build, that's all there from this very first issue in

1940.

Yeah, he has been quite consistent, I

guess. He's just such a good design.

And of course, whoever the colorist is who's not

even credited I don't know if they were making any of

these decisions, but that would be an important element

of this because his coloring is not

what a clown would have looked like.

So it was an original choice. I don't think

clowns were ever known for having green hair. I

could be wrong, but his whole look

is tied together in his coloring

for sure.

And the other thing that we mentioned in that

introduction there is how

murderous he is. And that, I think, was one of the

things I was the most surprised about reading

this issue from 1940. He's

just killing people. And the first

person he kills with the

they don't call it the smilex, but with the Joker gas

or whatever it is, he's left with the creepy

grin and he's laughing and as he's dying,

and then he's a corpse with that grin.

It's pretty graphic for a comic

from 1940 that was probably pretty much

exclusively read by children at the time.

Well, I don't know if that's true, that it was only children,

but yeah, it is surprising.

I was curious why they had to have him

kill because his gas would still work

in later years when he just has people frozen in

smile and they have to get checked into Arkham. I, was

curious why they didn't do that. But I guess it was probably

just more along the lines of the pulp stories that were

coming out at the time. And so it didn't seem that big

a deal. And as we learned in that intro, he

continued to kill for a few years. And even,

well, pre Code, though, DC clearly realized,

let's stop having him kill. I guess they

at that point realized they wanted to reuse him over and over

and over again. So they needed to have him be a little

bit more sympathetic. And

then, of course, he continues killing

today.

And other than the cast, he just also just shoots a

bunch of people, which is interesting.

And the other reference I thought going

way into his future is he clubs Robin

over the head.

Yeah, I saw that too, and was curious

if Death of the Family had took

inspiration from that because he has him tied up,

in fact, and clubs him. So I

think for sure that's one of the things I noticed.

Not just Joker's design, as you were mentioning, but little

things like that Robin or just some of the

other moments with him, the hat that

he wears. There's so much in this that I'm like,

whoa, I've seen those elements

being used in the

movies, in modern day comics, in

versions of the Joker right now in

the story we read in Night Terrors. Like, there's so

much that just has remained

consistent about this character. Remarkably

so.

The Jack Nicholson design, especially. I

would be surprised if they did not go back to this very

first appearance for reference, especially with the

hat that you just mentioned, which I just think of

Jack in that hat.

Yeah, I will say, reading this and then we

were watching some of the different DC documentaries that have been made

over the years, like the supervillain one and the recent superpowered

one. reading this,

he's kooky, like, he's dressed as a knight in one scene

when he decides he's going to kill people. It made

me dislike even

more. This is going to be controversial, but

Heath Ledger's version, which is often held up

as, like, the performance of Joker. But I'm

like, I don't think that was fun enough for

me. I think the Joker is

really fun. And I

appreciated reading this issue because it just got me

back into the comic bookie Joker. I'm going to assume

the Joaquin Phoenix Joker is not very fun either, which

is why I'm not seeing it. but reading this,

as dark as he is, as murderous as he is, like,

he is fun. And so I

really enjoyed this. I think it was my first time reading

it.

Well, I'd push back a bit in that I think there's

fun the moment where he dresses up in a suit

of armor in order to basically

then kill someone. That is a fun moment. But

he's not funny.

No, he's not really funny. But I don't think any

comics in 1940, had, I guess, joke

or.

If there were, they probably wouldn't be funny. But yeah, he doesn't

actually really there's, nothing really that

makes him a Joker or a clown here

other than his look that is not doing

there's no gimmicks, as we saw in

the introduction. Those are kind of introduced later. But, yeah, he doesn't

have those one liners that we've then come to know the

character for.

No, though he does have the sign of the Joker,

a playing card that he leaves behind with

his mark. And otherwise, the last

reference that I want to mention, which won't mean

anything unless you've read Night Terrors that we're going to get into

is the stuff at the end with the building that

Joker is going to fall off the building and Batman catches him.

And that's a really important point. And our

listeners will find out why when we summarize Night

Terrors. So I'm curious if that's a reference

that Matt Rosenberg is making.

Even the end of the first Batman movie, too, takes place

on the top of a building with Joker falling off.

So it always goes back to

falling into or over something.

Well, this first issue clearly has been mined

endlessly for inspiration

and it was really fun to see.

Well, why don't we fall to sleep ha.

and explore the multiversity.

I am your guide through these vast new

realities. Follow

me and ponder the

question,

what if?

And today we are asking the question, what if

Joker accidentally killed Batman and

ended up working at Wayne Enterprises?

This is from Night Terrors with a

K. The Joker issues number one to two

from DC Comics cover dated September and

October 2023.

And these are written by Matthew Rosenberg.

Penciled by Stefano Raphaeli, who also does the inks. Colored

by Romulo Fahardo Jr. Lettered by Tom

Napolitano and edited by Ben Abernathy.

And a quick summary. So spoiler alert because

these are very recent issues. So we are

spoiling everything in Night Terrors, the

Joker one and two. We will not spoil the rest of Night

Terrors for you, but we will spoil Night Terrors Joker

one and two. So if you want to go read it, go read it, come

back. But if you don't or don't care about spoilers,

here's your summary. So open on Batman and the

Joker in confrontation on a Roof. And

Batman slips and falls to his death. In

a really funny moment, I think. Joker and his goons

decide to disband and try to keep his death

a secret. But the Joker falls into a depression

and decides to get a job at Wayne Enterprises.

We have many moments of the office or office

space style humor. Joker kills his boss

in a microwave but ends up quite appreciated

and respected at the company. He denies

his old crime goons and heads home,

where we find out that the Batman corpse has been rotting

away in his closet. In the second issue, we

discover that Joker has, in fact, been sleepwalking

at night as the Batman and does not

realize it. And in a very Rorschach inspired,

deranged, psychopath style hero,

joker cracks jokes and heads as the

Batman, scaring other villains, such as Mr.

Freeze, into trying to go into hiding in

plain sight in the corporate world. So he applies for a

job with the Joker. In a hilarious scene,

Joker and the Bruce Wayne ultimately end up having

dinner, because Bruce is still alive. We can explain that in a moment

to talk about balance and the need for Batman.

And we get a bit of Joker psychology here. And as

he cries out that, we need Batman, we need Batman, we need

Batman, he wakes up from his nightmare, and

this amazing little two series two issue

series ends. So

you, said already that you enjoyed this, and it's your

first entry into Night Terrors, but start with your

general impressions.

My general impressions was that it's funny that we

started this with, a what if question, which we do on

all of our episodes. But this really felt like, a what if

story to me. It really felt like, what if the

Joker had accidentally killed

Batman? And everything kind of going from there. It wasn't

just, oh, a different an alternate

reality Joker. It was really all centered

on that classic what if moment, which,

of course, for this podcast, I just loved.

Yeah, I agree. And it obviously

has a great sense of humor while doing it. But

there's also a depth in it that

Rosenberg because Rosenberg is writing the ongoing

Joker series right now, which neither of us

read, so don't know if this is the

tone at all. I'm going to assume it is. This is a very

Matthew Rosenberg tone, and he is a writer that I

like, but he does such a good job of

taking that question, having a lot of

fun with it. You can see from the COVID of the first issue

what you're in for. He's sitting at the desk

board at the call center for Wayne Enterprises with the

world's best employee mug, so you know what you're in

for. But he also has a lot to say about

these two characters and how they're bound up together

and why the Joker would need

Batman, which is a story that feels almost

as old as the character himself. It feels like

so many versions of the Joker

are about how

he almost loves Batman. They love each other.

They have a symbiosis. They need each other in

so many ways. And this was a fun way of playing with

that, where you get the reveal. You keep hearing

the Batman is still alive and you don't understand it. And then

you get the reveal that Joker has been going out at night and not even

realizing that he is fulfilling Batman's

mission for him.

Even that change in mythology. In Batman

89, you have where the Joker

killed Batman's parents but you have that

classic exchange where the

Joker says, well, you made me, but I made you. So

who made each other first kind of thing. So even

there, it's always kind of this symbiosis relationship,

as you said.

Yeah. And then

you like things with humor. Did you

appreciate the humor in this?

Yes, I did, because it's got

so much satire in it. I saw so many references

in this. And on the humor side, certainly,

Office Space is just such a

big reference there. There's this great scene

where he's talking to one of his

coworkers who's very upbeat

kind of coworker. And he's trying to figure out what they

even do at Wayne Enterprises. And it's this

labyrinthian thing of, oh, they

approve the approvals. And it's very much

that awesome.

Yeah. It reminded me of like clockwatchers. Any

of those feels like 90s

movies that were commenting on corporate culture and

cubicle culture. Totally. Because it's in the break room,

of course, that he has this confrontation with his boss

who's a jerk, and he kills him with the

microwave. So all of that is very funny. And

I like that. Then he's dressed in armor, like

ready to blow the whole place up.

And his new boss thinks that's

just funny and doesn't take

him seriously. So there's a lot of good beats

in his stepping into corporate culture. Which,

of course, is impossible to not. Think

of the way the Harley Quinn animated

series deals with the Joker because in

that there is the Joker trying to live

the reformed life. And he first has amnesia for

a while, but he's like this family

man suburban dad. So this

felt remarkably similar. I wouldn't be surprised if

Rosenberg was a little inspired by that depiction.

Yeah. And even there where that Joker then goes

into politics and here he's kind of going into

corporate America you both

see Joker dealing with the kind of

inane things that normal people have to deal with.

And part of him is still the homicidal maniac but part

of him is a little reformed at the

same time. So I definitely saw that

connection there. And another big reference I saw

on the horror side, I was just reminded

of Psycho, too, the idea of

having this corpse in your

house that you also take on

its personality. Very Norman Bates there.

That's true. Funny. I was even thinking that

Matt Rosenberg's mother wrote this amazing well,

I think it's amazing horror movie from the

1980s called Maniac where the

title character is killing people and

keeping their corpses in his basement. And then

it's kind of seeing them and talking to them

and he's having nightmares of them. I don't even know if it's a

reference or just in his blood, but it's there

too.

Could be either.

For I mean, the reveal wasn't really a big

reveal to me, I kind of figured that he's.

The one out going to be Batman.

I kind of figured that. But I think it's

still effective even if it's not a surprise. Do

you think the same thing or was it a surprise to you?

It was a surprise to me. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention the

first time I read it. This is my second time reading it, so I knew at

this point. But I do remember it being a surprise

in part, I think because of what we were saying about Bruce

Wayne. Bruce is alive. And of

course that makes sense because Joker doesn't know bruce

and Batman are the same. This is

Joker's nightmare. Why is Bruce here

in Joker's nightmare? Like he's not going to

know bruce dies when Batman

dies. But I think because Bruce is alive, I

wasn't totally sure. I thought maybe it was going to end up being like

a zombie Bruce or Batman or

something. So it was a surprise to me that Joker

was the one going out at night, which is

really fun. So I think

it's a really great two

issue Joker story that everyone should

read. I think while I love Night Terrorists

in every way and I recommend it highly, I wonder

if it's sort of people won't pick

this up because they think they have to read something bigger. And

that's a shame because like the one bad Days that

we've talked about, a few of them on

previous episodes, the Riddler and Clayface ones,

they are just meant to be standalone. They are meant

to be a story you can peel off and enjoy. As

a fan of the Joker or a fan of horror and

comedy or a fan of what's happening in Night Terrors,

like it's meant to work on a few levels.

Yeah, I definitely think I'm sure we'll revisit some other issues for

the podcast and I would read some on

my own because I'm exactly into that

camp. I would go, oh my gosh, I do not want to read

a 50 page 50 issue,

50 issue series for something I'm not even

invested in the main series for. But I would

totally read two issue

horror comedy series. Like that is

totally right up my alley.

So before we move on, the question

is this is a multiverse. Even though it's a nightmare

verse, it's a multiverse. Do you want to go back to

Joker's nightmare verse? Are there more stories to be told

in Joker's nightmare verse?

I think there know the idea of an

ongoing Joker series is also not

really appealing to me because I think he's probably a

character for me that works better in

small doses. Even though James Tinian and

Matt Rosenberger are great writers. But

this is the kind of Joker, the subversion and

the satire of this corporate

world that I definitely do think

I would go back and read. I think there's

more ways of exploring. Oh, what if we

put Joker into the world that

most of us inhabit every day?

Would you want to go back and read this as well or

keep continuing in this world?

Yeah, and I think that there must be something compelling about

that, because, again, let's assume

maybe Rosenberg was not influenced by Harley Quinn. And

there's something about both stories where people think, oh,

let's take this deranged, homicidal,

lunatic clown and stick them in

a mundane existence that the rest of us have and

see what know.

The other thing that it reminds me of was the Mojo

TV series as well. Not the Mojo

TV series.

I was like, what are you talking about?

Modoc TV series? The Modoc TV series

on Hulu, where they put Modoc, who's also

this homicidal maniac, but put him into

this suburban lifestyle. And he's still a little

crazy, but he's also now a

dad. So, yeah, there's something about seeing these characters,

especially the characters that are just kooky and insane, you wouldn't

want to see, I don't know, Catwoman,

because she's more well adjusted, I think, into

this.

World and more three dimensional, three dimensional

Joker. And, like, these, are

caricature villains. even though Joker's persisted for so

long, and there might be some people who love his backstory or whatever

it is, I think that he's still

a caricature. And that's why it works to

then do a fish out of water story, if you

will. So I think it's really fun, and people should check

it out.

Well, let's punch our time clock before we

go into overtime and head into

pondering.

Possibilities.

Will the future you

describe be averted? Diverted.

Diverted. So what are we talking about for our

pondering possibilities?

Well, we can just chat Joker

overall, but here's the really

fun coincidence. Just this week that

we're recording the Kadansha, co

published DC mangas came out, and

we read chapter one of Joker because

it is a perfect fit here.

It really is doing the same

thing Rosenberg's doing in a totally different way with

a totally different concept, but it's telling

the same kind of warped,

twisted, dark comedy story that has to

do with Batman and Joker's relationship

and connection to each other. So we'll use

that as a springboard and then just talk about the future

of Joker and what we want to

see.

Yeah. So that's joker one.

Operation Joker, volume one, chapter one

from Kandasha and DC

comics, released in July 2023. But we just

got it here in the States in September 2023.

Well, and it's actually a little older in Japan, but

the translation is new, the English translation.

So it's written by Satoshi Miyagawa.

Penciled by Kisuki Gutau inks also

by Kasuki Gato. Letters by Wes Abbot.

It's. Edited by

Mitsuhiro Muramatsu and

Andrew Marino.

And the issue starts with the Joker changing the diaper of

a baby before we flashback to the Joker

fighting Batman.

Above a VAT of chemicals and spoiler warning for

a brand new comic.

Oh, yes, that's true. Spoiler

abound. But then the Joker pressures Batman to

just kill him by dropping him into the

chemicals. Batman, of course, refuses. But when the Joker

starts to fall, batman accidentally tumbles

into the chemicals instead. Joker thinks

Batman has melted away, but in fact, he has

turned into a baby that Joker adopts

and vows to raise with an eye towards

justice.

So there's so many things. Literally, just

this morning, as we were preparing to

record, I was like, oh, let me read the first chapter of this.

And was like, whoa. There's the accidental

misstep, the accidental death. There's

the Joker keeping some

secret Batman version in his

care and keep. There's the relationship between

so and then there's the fish out of water. This

not being Joker in corporate culture, this being Joker

as parenting a baby. Because of course, he's like, changing the diapers

and he's using a knife, but then he gets the knife away so the baby

doesn't get cut. So it was like, I was like, oh, my gosh.

This comic is really the same story. And there's

no way it was influenced. Now, it actually might

be old enough that if Rosenberg read the

Japanese version, he might have been influenced by this because I think

it's two years old or so. But it is just

so fun to read as a companion. And I can't wait to finish

this series. How about you?

Yeah, I thought it was so much I was totally

unlike the surprise that Joker's dressing up

like Batman in the Night

Terrors. I totally had no idea that it was going

to be Batman as a.

Baby, probably because it's just so

absurd and makes no sense. But that's okay. Yeah.

And I love in general, that kind of roundabout

storytelling where we start with this image of Joker and

a baby and like, okay, how are we going to get there? And

get there through it actually being

Batman? And now well, to the point that we

were talking about with Night Terrors and that

symbiosis relationship, joker knows, like, well, now

that Batman's gone, who am I as

a person? And he knows now I have to

not raise this baby as a villain. I have to raise

this baby to become Batman because that

is how I the Joker. The next generation

of villains will continue to function. I

need that.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's why, like, the

Rosenberg, it's asking these big questions about

these iconic characters and their relationship to each

other, but doing it through just

hilarious comedy

fun comic

book.

Yeah. And I think maybe it needs to be a

character like the Joker where he

can't really, despite the, Tod

Phillips movie, can't really be turned into

an antihero.

We shouldn't be.

Shouldn't be because he is just this murderer. You can

do that with Lex Luthor, maybe, and explore some

of the dynamics there, of course, like Catwoman and all

these other characters. But Joker just he

is this murderous psychopath.

So to subvert the character and to

really talk about that dynamic between the two of them,

then you have to introduce, I think, these

other elements.

Well, I think what both of these authors are

doing, miyagawa and Rosenberg and I'm

sure countless others over the years,

are they're deriving sympathy for

Batman, for Joker through his relationship to

Batman? Which is the only, I think, way that you

can construct him as having any sympathy is you can

be like, oh, I sort of get that. I get

that. What am I without you? Question.

But you can't have sympathy with Joker because, oh, he

had such a terrible life, or, oh, he was so

traumatized, or, oh, whatever other stories

people have tried to tell. I don't think that's an

interesting depiction of the character. I think it takes away

from some of the fun it takes away from some of the extremism

with him. But I think getting

sympathy from what he feels about

Batman is one cool, way,

fun way, and one, really

clearly generative, creative way of getting you

to feel something about the character but not feel like,

why do I like this

megalomaniacal homicidal maniac?

Yeah, and maybe it's true with the Riddler too,

but so many of the other Batman

villains catwoman, Poison Ivy,

Freeze, Penguin, Razal, ah, Ghul like you either

you can feel for them more as characters.

Maybe they were like the Penguin, they

were beaten up as kids. Or Raz al Ghul, who

he actually wants to save the world but is doing it

through this distorted way. So

those characters, you can kind of see Freeze with his background,

with his wife, but the Joker is just

like, no, as you're saying, you need

to explore it through other means

because there's not that fundamental thing. You have to almost see it through

the prism of Batman rather than through

the character itself.

Yeah, because what we've been

saying and why that intro was important is

what Joker's known for is killing. And

so the only way that you could get the

character's motivation would be to have a character

that you start to understand their

motivation for just repeatedly killing. And I think that's a

real hard reach. Which is not to say that

people who kill aren't worth understanding, but that's in

a reality context, in

an arch, nemesis, superhero way, I don't

want to start to process

my feelings about this character and why he decided

to take a life. so that's why I

think it's easier to develop this character in

this.

Way than that way.

And is there too much Joker

for you? We're getting this second. I mean, you haven't

seen the first Tom Phillips movie, but there's

that. As we were saying, he was introduced a

soft introduction in the Batman, though I do wonder.

I'd say there's a possibility that that stigma meant

nothing at the end of the Batman, that it was maybe

an attempt to develop some universe that they're not

going to actually do. I could be wrong, but

it really felt pinned on. And

even Barry Keoghan, I feel like, didn't do a ton of

press about. Like no one seemed to talk a lot about it.

I'm curious if it will amount to

anything, but I think I don't care

that there's a lot of Joker I'll pick

and choose. Obviously, I'm not choosing the

Todd Phillips joker, but I love the

Harley Quinn joker. That

that's in The Animated Series.

I wouldn't mind if someone tries to create him

on screen again, if it has

ah, elements I like, which would be pieces like

these or like that fun

kooky over the top, but not damping

down the fact that he's just a

psychomaniac either.

Yeah. So bring back Jared Leto. That's what you're saying,

right? Face tatoos and the grill and.

Everything. I think that

was a close performance. I

think what he didn't do, I think it might have

been performance and definitely more writing in the

movies that he appeared in is there was not a lot of

fun there.

No, but, also, that movie was hacked to death. Yeah.

So that's why I don't maybe there.

Was more fun on screen that we didn't get to

see.

Yeah. But no, I would

not mind more

Jokers existing because, again,

I get to pick and choose. I don't

need a prime Joker. I will

say after this, though, I am going to check out Rosenberg's

Joker title and see if it tonally is like this, even though

it takes place in the DC prime

Earth. I'm curious if it feels like this little

two issue fun story that he did, too.

Yeah. So that is a

wrap, dear Watchers. And while we're getting very close to the

end of summer, we are still not giving you our

last giveaway this week of all

time. It is. But, if you want to

know more about our giveaways because you haven't been listening, go back

and listen to episode maybe 100, I

think, where we announced it. And we've been doing giveaways all

summer. And we have one final bundle of

signed books that will be coming before

summer officially ends. So for those of you using

an.

Agricultural calendar, get out your poor Richard Zolman

act then.

We're waiting for the

fall solstice. It's not a solstice in the fall. What

is it? Equinox, I don't know. The

autumn equinox. Yeah, sure. All right. So at

some point between now and then, we will have it for

you. thank you for listening, dear Watchers. I have

been Batgito and I have been Rob,

and the reading list is in the show notes. You can follow

us on all social media at dear

watchers and leave a.

Review wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll be back soon with another

trip through the multiverse.

In the meantime, in the words of.

Uwatu, this town needs.