Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Welcome to Dear Watchers in Omniversal comic book podcast, where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up the omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your Kangs on this journey are.

Me Gito and me, Rama Rob, and what is new Gito in our little section of the multiverse.

So last week on our episode, if you didn't listen to it, we explored the tangent comics universe, the subuniverse of DC for the first time taking that trip. And prior to that, we were in the Buffy verse for the first time with Buffy the Last Vampire Slayer. So we had some fun detours on our travels that we've never taken before. But now we are getting back into Marvel with our excitement for quantum mania. We have a few weeks that we're going to spend in Marvel's Omniverse, just like old times. And we have some neat ways to do that, some fun characters we're going to explore that we think are going to show up. And so we have lots of MCU predictions for everybody.

Mhm. And I know this is an audio podcast, but we decided for every episode, we're going to dress up like a different Kang. What are you wearing right now, Gito, because no one can see you.

Kangaroo. There is, uh, a yeah, from the what?

The parody comic kangaroo from the spiderham universe.

So so I'm currently dressed as a kangaroo.

Yeah. Well, I'm Rama I'm Rama Rob, so I've got my my Egyptian headdress on maybe problematic, and I'm going to say yes.

That's not okay.

Well, we also want to make sure that you all know that we are also on coffee, so you can support us there as a patron. It really helps us build this community. And if you could please take a moment to leave us a review right now. So just like Tang, we will freeze time. So stop, pause and do that right now.

Make sure to come back.

Okay. Okay. We've unfrozen time. And with that, if you're joining us for the first time, we have three sections of our travels today. Origins of the story, what inspired this other reality? Exploring multiversity. We dive deeper into our alternate universe and pondering possibilities. We examine the impact and what's followed or coming in the future. And with that, Dear Watchers, welcome to Episode 83 and let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with today's alternate universe. And we are asking the this M is an interesting question. What if Kang tried to kill himself over and over again?

Geek. Uh, content warning. So this is a little bit unique for us, which is fun because we're spending most of our time in the six one six. So even our trip through Multiversity, our second segment, where we usually focus on an alternate universe that is divergent from the core universe. Here we are in the six one six. But we spend a bit of time and our story kicks off on Earth two, six, seven. With this only known appearance in the story that we get into. We also see some other Earths on screen. More on that in our summary. And of course, there are the Kangs and the Kangs are from many other universes, including Prime Kang, who is not a six one six Kang. Speaking of Kang, we're going to dive deep into the origin in our first segment, but just some quick background, of course. This is a character that first appeared as Ramatut in Fantastic Four. Number 19 from October 1963 by Stanley and Jack Kirby first appeared as Kang, later to be reckoned as Ramatut, of course, in Avengers number Eight from September 1964.

He has an outside of comics. King has appeared in many animated forms, including The Avengers Assemble, where he was portrayed by the iconic voice actor Steve Blum. Of course, he's now portrayed in the MCU by Jonathan Majors and more on that later. And then in 2009, INGN ranked him as the 65th greatest comic book villain of all time. And in 2022, CBR said he was the 7th most important Marvel villain. So maybe you agree with those rankings or disagree with them.

I think he's climbing up that list as we speak.

It does seem that way. So, Gito, what is your background with Kang and his many other incarnations?

I don't know how to explain this because as a Marvel reader for so long, I know Kang. I've read so much Kang and I cannot understand Kang. It does not click in my head. So I've never been a big fan of the character because I find it really convoluted and I love retcons. I love linking of different stories that are disparate, and we're going to actually talk about that in one of our origins issues when we go a little out of the box with that, but it still hurts my head. Anything you read about Kang, it just doesn't make sense. I don't get it. So I'm familiar with Kang, but I don't think anyone can be a Kang expert, quite honestly. So I know a lot about Kang, but it still doesn't make sense. How about you?

I always, growing up, was a big villain fan, so I loved reading about him in the handbook, and he would pop up in certain things, but he seemed like at least when I was reading comics, not a character that was in heavy rotation. So I feel like I never read too much about him. I had a prose Marvel book focusing on different villains, and he had a story in there. And I was always a big fan of kind of also ancient Egyptian villains. I loved Stargate growing up, so I also loved the Ramatut things and all the design of the character I think, is always cool. I love the blue mask and the classic purple and green look of Main Kang, but I also love the scarlet centurion outfit, which is also really cool. So I love that. But I felt I never really had a handle on his personality as a character, and I'd love to kind of dive deeper into that once we get into the issues as well.

Yeah, so let's do that.

Okay. We'll open up our time portal and journey back to the swinging 60s with this week's origins of the Story.

Right now on, uh, this very show, you're going to get the answer to all your questions.

Our amazing story begins a few years ago. Up. Uh, first is Avengers volume one, issue number eight from September 64 called Kang the Conqueror.

And this is written by Stan Lee, though in the credits box, he is described as our answer to Victor Hugo, illustrated by Jack Kirby. Our answer to rembrandt inked by Dick Ayres, our answer to automation, lettered by Sam Rosen, our answer to Artie Simek.

I laughed out loud at that one, actually. The ardi simek one. I made the laugh out loud.

And it is edited by Stanley. Colors are probably by Stan Goldberg. Not credited. We read this because it's the first appearance of Kang named Kang. So Ramatut predates this, as we mentioned in our background, and of course, tons of the origin is not yet constructed. And we're going to get into Kang's origin the later sort of reckons in our next part of Origins. But right now let's focus on this issue and his appearance and whether or not he has a personality.

He has a bit of a generic super villain personality here that I don't agree.

Mhm, I disagree. I think he has a great personality here. I think this is what Jonathan Majors, even though he was not Prime Kang in Loki, and we'll talk more about his performance. I think he captures the cockiness of this character and it's clearly constructed to be that he is cockier than anyone we've ever met as a villain. Because his first, very first appearance put away your childish weapons. They are no more than toys to me. Okay, I can see how that's generic, but three panels later, he's just chilling in a lounge chair with his legs crossed. That is not he does not care what is happening. He doesn't care that the Avengers are coming upon him. And I think that's really fun. Uh, I think that makes him I mean, all of Marvel's villains had a lot of personality, which is why you like them. And every time we talk about them, we find that. But I think his is a little distinct in that he just doesn't care. He's not stressed about it. He's not going crazy. So I like that moment of his appearance, and I am we'll talk about the MCU later.

Yeah, I mean, the image of him floating on this invisible chair or a transparent antigravity seat is just great because he's super casual, a little fay there, which I kind of was thinking, um, maybe would be more of his personality other places, which it's not, really. But that sense of superiority, I think, is a common Marvel villain trait. I definitely think Magneto has it down the line. And then certainly I think the character and we'll go into this more in our next segment or our next issue, which is Dr. Doom. I think they have definitely a lot of shared DNA there.

The difference, I think what I see in Kang here, and of course my idea of him is, can't be separated from everything I know of him in the 50 years since this issue was published. Six years. But he's relaxed. And that's one of the differences, I think, is that other villains are not relaxed. They're not at ease. They might be really confident, but they're not. And he is just chilling.

I guess having a sense of knowing what is going to happen in the future somewhat makes you more relaxed in that way.

Exactly. And his life at this point in this issue, we do get a little of that background, that idea that he is from the year 3000. So, yeah, I agree. I think that he would not care that much. It makes sense to me. Superior technology.

Uh, the issue that he's traveled back because in the year 3000, basically all war has been defeated and it's a very peaceful time, and he's like, this is boring. You call him an adventurer here. Uh, I think it's probably darker than that. But the fact that he's then traveling to other times, that he then goes back to ancient Egypt and gets trapped there. But it's all coming from the fact that he basically is bored, I think, to what you kind of were saying. Like, he is almost this elite a feat character in that way and wants entertainment. Yes, he wants to conquer, but probably more so than the conquering. He wants to have these playthings, which is not the case with, say, a Magneto or someone like that, who obviously has a true mission.

Yeah. So the other parts of this issue that stood out to me as being fun wacky, and a lot of them we're going to talk about in our third segment, because a lot of them, I think, link into for me what I think will come in the MCU or what we've already seen hints of. But I think it's interesting the way Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne play a huge role in this story. They're sort of the front and center Avengers, I'd say, in this story. Cap and Thor and Iron Man are there, but especially Wasp trying to get into his armor and dismantle it. And Giant Man is the first one who grabs him and threatens him and threatens Kang. So I thought that was interesting. And same with Rick Jones and his teenage gang. Yes, he gets organizes the teenagers to take on Kang. And that's how they essentially defeat him, is because the teenagers disrupted, uh, his plans by telling him they were going to be a part of his crew and going up to his ship and then throwing down one of his weapons, which he kang is all worried it's broken. So meanwhile, Rick and one of the other teenagers are sneaking around the ship to free the Avengers. So it's really weird.

Yeah. No, I like that. And I know we've never spent too much time focusing on Rick Jones as a character. I know there's some what ifs that focus on him that we'll still have to do. But it was great here with this kind of whole teenage gang. And they, of course, look very 60s. One's wearing like a letterman, uh, sweater and those kind of things.

I think the same as like 60s movies, too. Teenagers look like they're 40 year old.

Of course, the ones wearing like a, uh, hat that it's like, what teenager was wearing this hat even in 1964? But yeah, it's cool that it then is really up to them and to Janet to really save the day. And in fact, Thor especially kind of is thwarted at every possibility here when he throws his hammer and the hammer is just defeated. And then he gets turned back into Donald Blake at one point and can't escape from that. So yeah, Thor, especially the most powerful, probably, of this group, is just always, uh, reduced. And the Iron Man too. Like, at one point, his suit stops working. So his heart, Tony's heart isn't really working then. And then all the more powerful characters that we think of are really sidelined a lot in this issue.

Yeah. So I think it's a pretty straightforward issue. I think the issue itself is actually not that exciting. Like, Kang doesn't have much of a plan, and there's no twists. And even toward the end, I'd say it gets a little, um it's just sort of these six panel pages and there's lots of narration and dialogue. So it slows it down, the pacing and stuff. But the design of Kang, the character yeah.

We should talk just real quick about Kirby's art here, which is great. And I don't think Kang ever really looked like this. Going further, there's a close up of his mask at one point, which frankly, read as like a Bondage mask.

It does very much read like a leather later. It's much more I don't know if that even exists.

I don't know yet. It's later so much more Sci-Fi. And here it really is creepy. And it's ultra Kirby because it's got the spikiness to it. And when we see, I think some of his, uh, other minions in the other world are all super curvy esque, and his face is just disguised by this mask, which also gives us one of the best lines in the issue, which is our ongoing miniseries of Janet Van Dyne being the Hornetst character in comics. Because when Kang first arrives and he's lounging on his invisible chair, they're all saying, okay, we're going to defeat him. Oh my gosh, his confidence is disturbing. Thor says, and Janet says, I'll bet he's not bad looking under that silly head gear he's wearing.

I wonder if we'll get to see Michelle Pfeiffer say that to Jonathan Majors like that. It's a fun start to a character that goes much further. It's a fine issue, very typical Silver Age. But let's add in a part for this segment that we've never done before. So what are we looking at next?

This is Omniverse, the journal of the Journal of Fiction Reality from 1979. This is issue number two. Sadly two of two, though Kat Gruenwald is still trying to locate that third issue notes that she has. So we can't wait for that to come out. So this is, of course, a journal of writing, and the specific piece we're going to focus on is entitled The Lives and Times of Dr. Doom.

So this is the scene created by Mark Gruenwald. It's follow up to the first to primer on fictional reality and treatise on fictional reality that he works on with his father. And this is in the 70s. He's a fan at this point. This is on the verse. He's doing it and gets his job at Marvel through it. So he is the editor of this issue, the curator of everything in these two, uh, incredible issues that feel like they should be brought back today. This article, though, is by Frank Levichi and Walt Helstrom, and there's some art in it by Sam Delarosa and Bill Neville. Frank Levici did write some Marvel Comics later in the is a journalist still, and Walt Helstrom I couldn't find much about, but it appears Hellstrom is a real name, which is kind of cool. I thought maybe it was a pseudonym.

Yeah. Damian's long lost brother.

Yeah. So we read this because what this is is it's an article, and we are going to post it on our coffee. So you can go find it there if you need. The text of this twelve page or so lengthy piece that is about trying to reconcile everything known through 1979 of, uh, the characters Dr. Doom, Ramatut, Scarlet, Centurion, Immortis, and Kang. Because at this point, Kang has mentioned these five lives, or Immortis has mentioned these five lives that he led. And so this is attempting to understand things that are later explained, some of which are not even explained until a 2021 miniseries, actually. And so this article is like an academic study with tons of footnotes, all about these different stories and how they might link what the correspondences are, and then of course, also what the contradictions might be. And it's just trying to make sense of it. So it's very cool that they're trying to do different, this academic study. And I just have to say from the opening, I like the opening quote. Dr. Du, monarch of a nation, ramatut, pharaoh of the Nile, scarlet centrorion, rule over an earth, kang, conquer of the future, immortus, master of time. These are the men that try time's soul. And it's fun because they people writing us clearly know how convoluted this is, but they're really trying to understand it and I enjoyed going through it. What did you take out of looking at this piece?

Yeah, I think it's a really great, uh, synopsis of where these characters were at the time. And the title, of course, is a little misleading because it's called The Lives and Times of Dr. Doom and of course it talks about Dr. Doom's potential connection to the Kang and other Kang related characters at this point.

And for some time it wasn't clear if Kang was possibly Dr. Doom, so that's where that came from.

But yeah, it definitely focuses mostly on the various different versions of Kang. So yeah, I thought it was very helpful.

Yeah, exactly. Well, especially because of the way it's footnoted and it's so clear. So they'll go through and they'll actually pull quotes from the comics and use them again as if it's an academic study. So that's part of why Omniverse is so cool. It influenced the existence of this podcast as we've talked about in our conversation with Kakaru and Wald. And so it's just neat to be able to find like, textual evidence and see what people make of it and how it could work. And they pulled this one quote from amortis that helped me understand what we're about to visit in our story. Up next, where, um, Amordes says, the death of one counterpart does not affect the lives of the rest of my legion of temporal counterparts one iota. The tree of my existence is ever growing, and once having been, always is. So this was just a really helpful, supportive, supplementary piece, even though some of what they cite, of course, is later retcond or negated because this is still pretty early in the Kang backstory.

Mhm. Yeah, I think.

Cool piece.

One thing it highlighted for me, I think obviously this is especially true of the Amortous character, but I guess the character of Kang, and I think we'll probably see this more in the movie coming up. I mean, I think he does have a lot of nuance in terms of how evil he is because different versions of him are more have different agendas. Yeah, amortis is almost really like I feel like a Galactus kind of figure where he does bad, but he's also like it's not always doing bad. It's kind of in his nature. He's almost like almost being a, uh, character that's living in limbo. He's almost really a neutral figure in some ways. And then even Kang, I think, kind of goes back and forth with that. And the scarlet centurion who I knew from the Squadron Supreme issues. Yeah, but then that's a different one. So I didn't even know he was really existing in the six one six. I thought he was just kind of on this other Earth. So it was really interesting. Just kind of getting a little bit of that back story. He's probably of the various Kangs, the least known, I would say.

Yeah, so it's a fun piece. Go to our coffee to check it out. It's, uh, hard to track down these issues, but they are online on ebay and, uh, sometimes at Comiccons and stuff. And they are well worth anyone who's interested in the kind of stuff we talk about getting, because they are mapping out DC Howard the Duck. They even bring in Sherlock Holmes. It's truly meant to be fictional reality. Uh, a better understanding of fictional reality. I wish the Zine had continued, and I hope one day it does.

And if you're a fan of fonts, the opening font that they have on this and the fonts throughout this whole omniversity are just excellent. And the little, um, illustrations that kind of complement this article are great because, oh, it's really fun to kind of see someone who wasn't a Marvel artist and their take on it. Nice and early fan art, really.

Though they do use some panels. They do reproduce some panels in the text. So, yeah, very cool stuff. But that sets us up now to dive in to our main event, mhm.

So we're rejiggering our time machine once again, and this time to exploring multiversity.

I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if?

And this is The Avengers by Marvel Comics Volumes, volume one, issues number 267268 and two six nine from May 1986 through July 1986. And these stories are entitled time and Time Again the Kang Dynasty and the Once and Future Kang.

All right, and this is during the really undervalued, but definitely what the MCU is setting up era of Roger Stern on the book. So Roger Stern writes these issues. John Busima pencils, though with some inks. And finishing art by Tom Palmer, colored by Christy Skiel. Lettered by Jim Novak, edited by uh, Mark Grunwald. Lots of gruanwaldian connections. So, all right, this is our alternate Earth. And again, it's a little unique for us because it's taking place core in the six one six. Typically we look at Earths outside of the six one six. But this one, we decided to look at the six one six, which kicks off though, with a trip to Earth two six seven. So very briefly, we get to see an Earth where storm flies down, having now been made a member of the Avengers. Very cool moment that, uh, for a second I was like, wait a second, this isn't real, right? This didn't happen. Uh, and then Colossus is getting the Presidential Medal for also being an Avenger. And Iron Man helped Colossus migrate from the Soviet Union. But it turns out that Iron Man is actually Kang in Iron Man's armor, sets off a nuclear bomb, ends up destroying this Earth. Two, six, seven. What this leads us to is the first appearance of the Council of Kangs. So we learn that there is this group of Kangs that try to monitor all of the divergent iterations of Kang and try to look at what they're doing and understand it. One of them, though, has gone rogue and is trying to kill all of the others. And over the course of these three issues, with lots and lots of tangents and sideways paths through limbo, not to be confused with the Hell dimension, but the limbo that Imrdis occupies, that is outside of time, we find that this Kang has killed all but one of the Kangs and is trying to get the Avengers to kill this last Kang so that he can be the ultimate Kang.

He's wearing a cape, so we know he's like, the bad one.

Yes, he's added a little bit of flair to the outfit. And, uh, of course, this is also a team roster. That, again, is very MCU. We have captain Marvel. Namor, captain America, Hercules, wasp. Uh, and so, black knight, a very.

Motley crew of avengers. This was like, definitely a variety that I had not been familiar with here.

But spoiler. And then we'll dig in deeper for sure into this story. But how it ends is that Ravana slightly betrays him because she lets the Avengers escape. And then it turns out that this Ravana that had survived because the Ravana we knew has died and that the king knew has died. So she is working with Immortas, who is not actually dead. And so it turns out that it was Immortis who was trying to sort of purge of these evil Kangs. And Immortis, as you said, is not quite evil here. He doesn't have an evil agenda, but he lets the Avengers think he's a villain because he wants things to stay clear on the timeline a little bit. Sacred timeliney. So that's an attempt to summarize what is a pretty complex three issues. The third issue ends up with a ton of retelling of Kang's origin, retells his early appearances, retells his Ramatut stuff, his scarlet centurion stuff, and tries to tie it all together now with this new addition to his mythology of the Council of Kang's and this idea that all these divergent Kangs actually still exist. So I think that's a good summary and place for us to start our discussion. What did you think over all of these issues? You probably haven't read much. Bronze Age avengers.

No, I hadn't. Uh, and it certainly starts off with a bang, quite literally, because there's this nuclear explosion, which I think is, uh, quite the jarring start. And I, unlike you, was not familiar, again, as you said, with Bronze Age. So colossus and Storm being there just didn't seem out of touch with me. And there's a little bit of Soviet politics in there. And then this bomb goes off, and I'm like, whoa, my gosh, this is so interesting. And then what's so cool is that we see the Council of Kangs, and the one Kang, our main Kang in this cape, is saying, well, no, you didn't succeed, uh, other Kang, because by setting off that nuclear explosion, yes, you killed the Avengers, but then the United States thought the Soviets were attacking, so you basically killed the entire world. And in another alternate universe, the Kang didn't even get to explode the bomb he's just killed right away. So definitely I thought I liked how in depth it got into all these different versions of Kang and kind of seeing those multiple timelines and certainly that stuff that we are now seeing in the MCU too well, and what each.

Of the Kangs has, even though most of them are not trying to kill the other ones. They all talk about. One of them refers to how each new Divergent double is more ignorant than the one before. It makes me wish I'd never built a time machine. And the other one says most of them are so incompetent that they die in their own schemes. So, uh, they all think they're the better one. Which again, we saw in that first issue. And we'll keep seeing in his appearances just how he part of Kang is, how superior he feels, even to himself.

Yeah, definitely. And we'll go into this, I think, in our next section, but there's so much here that is we're seeing those Ramifications in the MCU in a lot of the form of not necessarily Ken, but we saw a lot of these themes explored in Loki in terms of the different other versions and stuff like that. But the other thing that this reminded me a lot of Guido was I know we've only watched the TV show, not read the books, but is foundation by Isaac Asimov, where there's the Empire are three versions of the same person, and there it's a clone. True. Um, it's not time travel, but they have that same kind of thing where one of them thinks they're better than the other. And like, then there's there's some plots to, you know, within them to try to kill each other and that kind of thing. So I'm starting to get that. I was wondering if Gruenwald or Roger Stern was even maybe reading Azamov and Scifi and kind of taking some of those concepts from there, because that goes back to the 40s, even though and.

Stan in the 60s when he starts I mean, Stan is the one who makes Ramatut a kang in the first place. So he might have been being influenced. And there is even that line in here where Captain America is telling Captain Marvel that Iron Man came up with. This jargon of cronull displacement wave, but that actually the pulp writers of his boyhood would have just called it a time teleport write. So there's even the explicit reference to pulp stories and like, old school Sci-Fi. So I think you're right. They could easily have been influenced by Asimov or any number of other stories that had to do with chronal displacement and divergent selves and all of that kind of stuff that happens.

And then there's a concept too, right, with the Council of Gangs that popped up in other things. Isn't there also a council of Reed Richards? And I know on the Flash TV show there was a council of Harrison Wells. So it definitely seems like it's a concept that people I would imagine this was the first time, though. This is where maybe that stems from.

It might be, I don't know, there could be some Silverade stuff that was earlier than 86. But yeah, for sure, the council reads that becomes a huge part of Secret Wars, uh, and uh, the modern Secret Wars and Hickman's Run, that is really for sure influenced by this. And Kang is of course a, uh, Richards. So it makes sense that there would be that echoing of what we see here. And I think it's a fun three issue story to read. I think it's actually going to be really important for Kang fans to read this. And we'll get into the MCU fully in just a moment. But this feels like a really iconic three issues in Kang's legacy because it is the first time we see that council it is the first time we see him killing himself in these different versions and the implications of multiple Earths and multiple Kangs. So I think it's a really important three issues. It's fun enough, it has a good pacing. It's still a little convoluted. Of course, it's simplified at this point. The Marvel hasn't leaned into the multiverse, so they chose to simplify it.

There's a very long stretch with the Space Phantom and different, uh, versions of from the past, which was fun because we've covered that issue, the original issue on this podcast. But it did feel a bit like they were filling pages and panels a little bit to me at that point where it was like, okay, I still don't know quite what it actually means by them showing all of that.

Well, and it helps too, that they created this version of Limbo, which is out of time. Limbo, the Hell dimension is out of place. This is out of time. So in that they can put these different things and not have it actually mean anything. So, yeah, they have this idea that Space Phantom has displaced people and they're all in Limbo, the different earlier versions. And then, of course, that's where Mortise has been ruling over. So they do a good job of trying to make something really convoluted a little simpler. But it's still a lift in your brain.

And I think, too, the Kangs are really fun in this. They're really, what's, caring. And maybe because this is kind of a very odd version of The Avengers, they definitely seem like they're far in the background, and I kind of wanted a little bit more of their personalities to shine through here.

Well, there's a bit like you're getting what's cool about Stern's Run, uh, like, a lot of 80s work and definitely like anything Mark had his fingers on. There's the soap opera element. So you're getting pieces of stories that are going to unfold later. So in this, Namor has just joined, and there's these protesters outside. So that story is going to keep building of what Namor's role on The Avengers is. And then, of course, Captain Marvel is new on this, and she tells her name for the first time to Captain America.

That's, uh, not the only thing new about her, though. She also has her hair. She also has a new hair because even Captain America, who's probably not the most aware of these kind of things, I'm guessing, but he even says, say, you look great, Captain Marvel. Is that a new hairdo? And she says thank you. Yes. I thought it was time for a change. And this is probably really, like, updating, right? Because it was a little bit more 70s hairstyle right before this.

No, she hasn't existed for very long. She's pretty new at this point.

Okay.

Ah, and the other thing I noticed, too, on the soapy note is you have Wasp actually telling Space Phantom. I like this moment where she's like, I'm not the Wasp you remember. I'm a much stronger version. So it's fun that there's a little nod to just how absurd she was written in the Times, as we've talked about, including a few minutes ago.

Yeah. And even in this issue, uh, she comes across like, the main character in this, which is interesting because that's what we said.

She's leading the issue as well.

Yeah, she definitely seems like she has more of a presence, more more to do than some of the other characters, like Black Knight, who's, like, barely in this, really.

Yeah. Well, they again, you go story a few issues later, you'll zoom in on Black Knight. So it became an ensemble soap opera, which is very cool. And the art, of course, John Bustima is great, even when getting help from Tom Palmer inking it. So it's fun. Again, I think it's just a really important run. And before we talk about why our alternate Earth in this is Earth Two Six Seven, we barely see it. Do you want to go back to Earth? Two, six, seven Well, I think the.

Whole world has blown up, so I don't think there's much to go back to. I did like the idea of them talking about what if Colossus, as this ex Soviet was joining the Avengers, this, like, super american team and what the controversy would be there. I think that would actually be a fun standalone story that we actually explored, since the X Men are never really, uh, officially recognized as a team. Right. So it's okay he's on that. But the Avengers, what does it mean to have, like, a Soviet and maybe there's an even modern version of that that we could explore. I don't know, but that would actually be an interesting story to me.

Well, and the fact that Iron Man brought the Ratzputins over, so they're changing history slightly, which is interesting here.

Uh.

I like it. And of course, I like Storm opening the issue. And.

It'S fun because it even starts off like that. It's all going to be a tough storm. Like, all the captions are just about.

How amazing everyone else is dying, and.

Then she gets blown up, like, three pages two pages later. Yes.

Um, all right, so let's keep going.

One last stop on our trip through time. It's pondering possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted? Averted? Diverted? So, Gito, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?

Well, since we did this episode in the run up to Quantum Mania, we are going to just focus on the MCU, and we can talk a little bit about he who Remains, the first Kang variant we meet in Loki. But I really more want to focus on what we think. We know that Kang is going to be an overarching villain for at least a while of the MCU. Whether or not he's the villain of Secret Wars or not is to be seen. But I want us to make some predictions, see what we think can be called from these early stories, and figure out where we think things are going.

Yes. So we've got Loki, the TV show, specifically the episode for all time, always from July 2021, and then Ant Man and the Wasp Quantum Mania from February 2022. And that's, of course, 2323-2323. Yes, you wouldn't be a good time travel. Too much time travel.

You're more like Ramatut, which is yes, exactly. Ramatut is the one who thinks he's going back and then messes up the time and ends up somewhere else.

Only I just end up one year in the past, which probably doesn't really have much of an impact. Uh, and of course, those are going to be starring or have starred Jonathan Majors as Kang, or some version of Kang.

Yes, with lots of great writers, directors, producers who made the Kang that we know specifically for that episode. It's michael waldron and eric martin. Directed by kate heron but there is a, uh, lot more hands are going to be on this character as soon as a few weeks from now. So let's start with Jonathan Major's depiction, and then let's move into Quantum Mania and what we think we know from the trailer or our own predictions. So I loved Jonathan Majors instantly. You took a little while.

I still didn't love his performance. I think I'm more of an outlier there, but it was a little and a, uh, little actorly, a little too many, like, ticks for me in that way. Yes. I didn't love his performance in Loki.

Well, I think what will be really cool and I'm assuming he has the acting chops I mean, I don't know him that well. We watched a little bit of Lovecraft Country. But what will be cool about all the variants is seeing him play it slightly differently.

Yeah.

So he who Remains was a really specific character. And when we meet Kang, he's not going to be like He Who Remains.

Yeah.

And I'm assuming Quantumania is going to I have zero doubt Quantumania is going to have more than one Kang. I'll get to that in a moment. But I think we'll see him play these different variants and he'll have to treat each one differently.

Yeah. I think in some part, he wanted to probably do this kind of big, more swing for the fences, big, larger than life performance in Loki. Because it's only one episode. Because I would imagine, like you said yeah. He's going to we're going to see a very different version in Quantum Mania and maybe even going forward. So maybe he wanted those other versions to be a little bit closer to his core personality. And that way he would start really big and then you can kind of always pull it in afterwards. So that would be just my thought that he had as an actor.

And I think it makes sense. He Who Remains is the last living creature in all eternity. It makes sense. Uh, we as human beings cannot even fathom that, of course. So it makes sense to me that he's going to be acting in a way that doesn't make sense to us either, because it's like, who knows? You wouldn't even be saying, of course, if you were human. But he's not, so it doesn't matter.

So he's called he who remains in that episode. But a lot of people said, well, it's probably closest to a Mortise because, again, he's not quite a villain, but he's not quite a hero. The look similar comics. I was in the comics, but I was wondering, why did they choose not to do a Mortise, which is a more do you think that character will pop up in maybe future incarnations?

Emortis yeah. Oh, yeah. I think there's a chance that Mortise is in Quantumania. If amortis is not in Quantumania, then I think amortis could be in Fantastic Four. Uh, I think we are going to get a Mortise and Ramatut. Jonathan Majors I don't doubt that at all. And I do think it's going to be in Quantum Mania. I think reading Avengers 267 to 269 made me feel really strongly that that could actually be the plot of Ant Man and Wasp, because all we know, which is very little, is that we have in at least one scene, kang asking for help with something and potentially being trapped in the quantum realm. It makes sense to me that he is battling other versions of himself at this point. And so I think that is potentially what we see unfold, that's where also being struck by the first issue, how much Hank and Janet had to do with the origin, it made me think, oh, that works perfectly. Hank and Janet are going to have something to do with the origin. We know Janet has a lot of experience in the quantum realm that we never learned in the first two movies. She refers to it having happened, but we don't ever find out what exactly happened to her in the quantum realm, what made her a warrior. So for all we know, she's already interacted with Kang, this one or another one. And so I think that we will see immortals and that we will see many versions of Kang, and I think it'll probably be in this movie, but I guess it could be being held for other stuff.

Mhm. Yeah. I think it made sense to me that they kind of introduced this concept with the character of Loki, a character we know very well and also a character that would make sense to also have different versions of himself before they really introduced him. Introduced the concept with Kang because it was almost like a soft opening of there, like, okay, we get to kind of see all the different versions. Sometimes they look like the person we know, sometimes they look like Richard E. Grant, all those kind of things. So I think that was very smart of them to kind of introduce it with a character we were already familiar with before they do it with Kang.

Yeah, and Wanda, of course, had variants too. We've gotten a few different little sense of what variance means and what it means to have divergent people who are like yourself elsewhere. Uh, what is one of your biggest predictions for Quantumania? Kang related, ideally for this episode, but maybe not.

Yeah, uh, let's see. HM, yeah, I think seeing Rama Tut I think would be really interesting. Going back to Egypt, maybe tying that in with moonlight there as well, because there we also get Egypt ancient gods, different personalities, of course, also with Moon Knight, so there's almost a connection there as well. I think that would be really interesting. And then kind of beyond Kang, I think my other prediction is that really, I, um, think we've started to see this already, but seeing how time and the variance will play a role in ultimately kind of the long term strategy of the MCU, just in terms of cast and stuff like that. So as people are getting older or their contracts are expiring, how will we use time to recast some of these characters or even have kind of a what if universe where we're able to explore stories outside of the mainstream MCU continuity. And I think we're already starting to see kernels of that, but I'm thinking this movie will definitely introduce that even further.

Yeah, I agree. There's also been longtime rumors since this movie was even in pre production. They're the kind of thing where I don't know if it's quite rumors or if it's speculation that starts getting quoted as rumor because so many people think it that will meet the Fantastic Four. Here mhm, that the Fantastic Four could be in the Quantum realm and could actually be a superhero team from the 60s. So how likely do you think that is?

I think it's very likely.

The Easter eggy piece to me is, I think, part of why the MCU resonates so much with comic fans. There's so many reasons, of course, that have been talked about to death. But one thing is, I think they do always find pieces from the books and pull them out. Even if they're going to change them or transform them, they find something about that character's origin or first appearance or first major story arc that can show up in the plotting. And so to have Kang exist, if we treat Kang's first appearance as the Ramatut in Fantastic Four, then it has to be bound up in the Fantastic Four. And then, of course, Dr. Doom and Hem are so intertwined you can't disentangle those. Even if this story started being plotted before they owned Fox, I still think they'd go back and start to plant seeds. So whether or not they're seeds in Quantumania or the full on, just here's the team boom. I'm not sure.

Yeah, well, on one hand, I think they could take the same route that they did with the Tom Holland spiderman, which is like, we're going to skip the origin story. We've seen the Fantastic Four origin story too many times. And also, I just love the concept of having a group from the 60s because it just opens up a whole new way to write those characters, especially Ben Grimm, who is kind of a character who speaks in an antiquated style. So just having that from the also, then what does that mean for people's memories? Does say Scott Lang even remember them? Or did they work with Hank and Janet and maybe we just never really have heard of them or have they existed in another way or had this kind of wiped? And that opens up so many other possibilities to introduce things like the X Men or other stuff that might be out there that for some reason we just don't know.

Yeah, I agree.

Go ahead.

One last prediction.

Okay, not a prediction, but I think my biggest question will be how will the Jonathan Majors portrayal of Kang or how the MCU is going to use him? How will that stand out from an eventual Dr. Doom portrayal because as we've talked about, and as the Omniversity um, article is all about, the characters have lots of similarities. They hide their faces. They have all this advanced technology. They might even be related. So how are you going to make those two characters that have so many similarities different? And they're obviously setting up Kang to be like this big villain. But as we've talked about before on this podcast, if you had to say one person who's the arch villain of all of Marvel, it would be Dr. Doom. So he has to, uh, come at some point. And I'm just be curious how they make those stand out because that has been some ongoing problems sometimes with Marvel, where their villains have just not been nearly as good as they are in the comics. They don't have that different spark of their personality. So I'll be curious how they tackle that.

Yeah, I don't think that's true anymore. I think that was an argument a long time ago.

I don't know that to Ethan Hawk on moonlight.

I don't know. I think it's hard to say because, frankly, they could make Jonathan Majors Victor Von Doom.

I was wondering about that.

The way that the Kang and Doom Nathaniel Richards ancestry family tree is so linked that they could obviously they're going to simplify it no matter what they do. So there's either going to be like they'll either be the same person or there's going to be no connection because it's so convoluted. I think that it's an all or nothing kind of thing in the Richards family tree. So I agree that how they create Doom is going to be an important question. But I also think there's just the possibility that he is Doom.

I think that's very true.

Believed for a long time that that was going to be true. We've also talked about the cross racial casting of The Fantastic Four. And we've had a movie that did that with some characters, had Johnny Storm at least be not white. And so if they were playing with the cross racial casting again in the Fantastic Four story, maybe Dr. Doom is the way to go.

Yeah, he could play both characters because we've seen Kang without his mask on a lot of trailers. But the one thing about Doom, which I hope they stay true to, is like, you never see Doom's face. And I think almost showing it on the mandalorian, it's like it can work because I think often the Marvel MC movie way too often heard, like, having people without their masks on because they want to see Tom Holland's face. That's what they're paying for. But I hope, like, they go, okay, we're going to have Doom in the mask all the time. And that could make the same actor, could play both characters because it's just going to be a little less confusing to us as the viewer. Oh, there's Jonathan Majors. Ah. Without the mask. And there's Jonathan Majors as Doom. So I could totally see it happening.

Yeah.

What's your last prediction?

My last prediction is a little bit of a surprise and sets up our sequel because I think that is very safe to say that the young Avengers are here now. A lot of people it's not a surprise, I'm not some brilliant speculator, uh, that the young Avengers are coming. Right? We all know that they're coming. We've already met Isaiah Bradley. We've already met Kate Bishop. We already know Cassie Lang. We now know Kang. So we know that there is casting, or speculation of casting for at least wicken. We have the set up of Wanda's children, so we have all of the ingredients and of course they're going to come together at some point. I think it's going to be in Quantumania, m. And it could even be sort of the stinger. I don't know that it's going to be a large part of the plot, but I don't think this is going to tease the Young Avengers anymore. I think the young Avengers are going to be here by the end of the movie.

M. Yeah, I think that's a good guess. But gito, what about someone like me who doesn't know too much about the Young Avengers? How would I learn more about them?

On next week's episode we go into the young Avengers.

How convenient. I didn't even realize.

So that is a wrap. Dear Watchers, thank you for listening. I have been Kangito.

Uh, and I have been Rama Rob.

The reading list is in the show notes.

You're so harmony like all of the Kangs or the Council of Gangs. And it shows. You can follow us on social media at deer Watchers.

Leave a review wherever you listen. And we'll be back soon for another trip through the multiverse.

And in the words of A Wattu, keep pondering with the possibilities.