Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Rob: Welcome, surface dwellers, to Dear Watchers, an omniversal comic book podcast where we do a no pun intended deep dive into the multiverse.
Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up an omniverse of fictional reality we all love. And your watchers on this journey are.
Rob: Me, Guido, and me. I've known by many names, but today I'll go by Rob. And we have an extra special guest, a, uh, podcaster extraordinaire. And yes, he brought his own green Speedo. It's Badr Milligan. Hi, Badr.
Badr Milligan: What's up? Uh, watchers nationwide? Um, it's the green hollow chainmail.
Guido: Yeah, perfect. Uh, so Badr is indeed a podcaster. Extraordinary. It's extraordinary. He podcasts most recently about vinyl records, which we haven't gotten a chance to listen to. But I'm curious about you podcast about comics for coming on ten Years, you just shared with us. And of course, you also do a ton of work we get to see online from you organizing podcasters in your area of Florida. You posted a conference. So, Butter, could you tell us about your work with Podcasts United, the Next spin, and then, of course, the ShortBox comic talk show.
Badr Milligan: You guys have done your homework ShortBox, but yeah, good job on the homework on the, uh, uh, ShortBox. Caesar has banned me from talking about any other podcast that I'm involved with. I guess I'll start off with, uh, um, my baby, my longtime gig. And that's the short box, right? It is a comic book talk show that I host alongside some of my best friends. Uh, we've been doing it for ten years, since 2012. Uh, I like to believe at least we've entertained listeners around the world and the multiverses were being topical today with great conversation about comic books and pop culture topics. Uh, we've been recording, like, every ten weeks. Every week we've dropped an episode or tried to drop an episode. And those episodes can range from comic reviews. We do Artist Spotlights, which are some of our best play, the most well loved episodes, where we focus on a, uh, comic creator and give them their flowers. We, uh, also have interviewed some of the best creators in the industry, and I like to think of ten years and almost 300 and over 370 episodes. We have probably talked about your favorite comic book store. You've probably interviewed your favorite comic creator, and that's a really big blessing. As someone that's been reading comic books since I was in middle school, it's crazy to think that I've had this opportunity to meet so many, uh, of my favorite creators, to travel to Cons and speak at conventions and talk comic books with my best friends every week for the last ten years. So that's a short box. Podcast. And then, um, as I started just seeing the podcast community grow and really, the podcast industry really blow up in these last, what we'll say just five years, it might even go back further than that, I started getting involved with helping other podcasters in my community here in Jacksonville, Florida. I formed the Jacks Podcasters Unite group, really, just as a means to just meet other podcasters. I think podcasting can be such a, um, I want to say, like, a lonely thing, but it feels like you're in a silo. Um, I want to say lonely because I've got a great crew and whatnot, but, uh, it wasn't always that way. And just overall, it can be such a very tedious and solo thing when you're the host. And I also happen to be the producer and editor and all that. It's a lot of work to do by yourself. And I was curious if there was other people podcasting in my city. And that's where the Jack's Podcast Is Unite happened, and that's been going on for four years. And I've been, once again, so lucky to be surrounded by a community of great podcasters and audio creators and be able to talk about the industry and help each other out. Uh, we're having another meet up, um, this week. Uh, and it'll be, like I said, four years doing that. At some point, I just was like, you know what, I would love to do a podcast about another hobby of mine, which happens to be, like, record collecting and talking and music. So I started one called, uh, The Next Spin with another group of friends. And, uh, we were hosting, like, monthly meetups at everyone's, uh, houses. We would just take turns swapping houses, and we'd do, like, a theme, like, all right, this month, uh, bring your favorite, uh, funk records, your favorite soul records. And of course, it could have just been fun like that, but of course, I wanted to punish myself, and I said, you know what, we should start a podcast about this. So I started the next spin. That's relatively new, but that, to me, is, like, my chance to just have a chance to breathe and have fun. Not, uh, saying I don't put in work in it, but shortboxes. That's always got my focus. And X Men has been kind of a, um, labor of love so far. That is kind of like my podcast resume at a glance, it's amazing.
Guido: You make me want to be in Jacksonville, Florida, which is a high bar, because I'm not a fan of Florida. I will say I was born there, so I feel I have more permission to say that because I was born there. Um, but yeah, you do such cool work. So thank you for joining us.
Badr Milligan: I appreciate it. Like, I was telling you guys to give you guys some flowers at the top. I think the concept of your show is so awesome. I was listening to, um, the Storm episode, uh, this week, and it just kind of reinforced that. I love multiverse stories. I think it is a safe assumption that, uh, the MCU lately has kind of rekindled that fire for a lot of people or maybe even started that fire in that interest for a lot of people. And to have the idea of dedicating a podcast to these multiverse stories and I've just seen the MCU, you guys have also done, like, DC Amalgam, ah. Um, uh, across publishers. Who knows? You guys were coming up with such a great idea. It was one of those instances when I started listening to your show and becoming aware of it, I was a little jealous, like, damn it, that's a good idea.
Guido: Thank you. And that is very high praise coming from you. And we're excited because you and I have been talking about this for a bit. And there was something else. I'm not going to spoil what originally you were going to come on to talk about, because I am determined that you're going to come back to talk about at least that and plenty more. Um, we've been excited for this episode, and we're excited to find something else for us to talk about that's timely with the movie release. And we'll go back into some of your original ideas because you had some neat suggestions for us, some that I hadn't read.
Badr Milligan: Awesome. Yeah.
Guido: Thank you.
Rob: Yes. Thank you so much. And before we jump into today's conversation, Guido, what is new in our little section of the multiverse?
Guido: Well, we have been stockpiling some new original art that we're getting ready to launch, so our coffee members will get a preview of it soon. We have some really cool multiversal characters that are coming your way, and you can look into our coffee and become a monthly patron@deerwatchers.com. We also have a few neat things in that coffee store. Good gift shopping. Like an omnivors for everyone tote bag that we designed some great art of what if the Golden Girls were the original Avengers on a sweatshirt. So a lot of quirky stuff from our artists, friends and folks we've commissioned, and we're excited to share that. So more to come.
Rob: Christmas season is coming.
Guido: Yes, there's more gift giving than just Christmas in the world.
Rob: That's true. X Men math is coming, so get purchasing. Uh, yeah. Thank you so much, Keto. And if you are joining us for the first time, we have three sections of the show. So that's origins of the story. What inspired this other reality? Exploring multiversity. We dig deeper into our alternate universe and pondering possibilities. We examine the impact and what's followed or coming in the future. And with that, dear Watchers, welcome to episode 71, and let's check out what's happening in the M omniverse with today's alternate universe. Today, we are asking the question, what if Prince Namor of Atlantis grew up on land? And a quick preliminary side note on spoilers. We will not be discussing the MCU Namor until our final segment. And we will give you a warning again. So if you haven't seen Wakanda Forever, aka Black Panther Two, you are safe to listen to most of this episode.
Guido: So, some quick background on this Earth. It's Earth seven one seven. And before we take our trip there, this was originally designated Earth 261 by an official handbook appendix, but then for some reason was changed to Seven One Seven in the handbook A to Z. This is from a series of six What Ifs that came out in December 2005. So it's not clear if Earth Seven One Seven is all six of them. That's what you'll find online, but when you read them, they really don't interlock in any way other than the framing device. So it's not clear. But that's where Earth Seven one Seven comes from. All of those What Ifs in 2005 featured a new character who only appeared in them, ector Espeo, who is a hacker known online as Watcher, who hacks into other universes and tells the story that way as the framing device. So that's how we got to Earth. Seven one seven. And for more on Namor, our episodes 23 and 24, we also do What If? You joined the Fantastic Four. And what if you married the invisible girls. So you can go back and check out episodes 23 and 24 for more Namor.
Badr Milligan: Uh, I'm sorry. May I add that this 2005 What If series, uh, um, i, um, don't know how you guys write it, but I ended up reading this issue on the Marvel Unlimited app. It is a pain in the ass to find this series.
Guido: Yes, it is the way I think Marvel Unlimited is very hard to search. But the what if in particular, because the formal title of this issue is What If? Featuring submariner. What if submariner? But it's all grouped under What If just 2005 series.
Badr Milligan: Yes, but once I found it, I was pleasantly surprised to learn a few of these What If that I wasn't aware of. Like the Robert Kirkman and Michael. Uh, oming. What if Thor was herald Galactus?
Guido: Yeah, that's probably the most well known from, uh, this year's What If after What If volume two ends. They do this a few times, and for some reason, it's usually in December. There must have been something about the either putting stock in stores or the release calendar where the end of the year would bring this group of what if one shots. They didn't do it too many years, but there are three or four years where they do it before they start going into the What If miniseries that they did. And this is one of them.
Rob: Well, we are going to get into our background, uh, on Namor in our origin segment. But before we do that, let's talk about our backgrounds with the multiverse and alternate universes, or specifically bother your background with omniverses and multiverses. And we talked about, before we got started recording the podcast that you mentioned, that they are kind of everywhere these days. So what is your background? Do you like this kind of storytelling?
Badr Milligan: I absolutely love this type of storytelling. Uh, especially, um, I'll kind of just hone in on what if? Well, uh, not just what ifs, but I think just in general, multiverse and elsewhere stories, when you look at like, DC specifically, uh, are very reader friendly. And as a kid, that was like, you know, reading my dad's books, and he was a huge Marvel fan, like, was collecting heavy in the 70s, even into the 80s, he had a few of these what ifs. And I found these to be a little more, uh, digestible, um, than say, you know, jumping in on a random issue of Xmen or some of the Avengers he had, um, because it was like, you got a complete story. So through these what ifs and these oneshots, I was able to kind of build my foundation on the characters. Now, granted, this was telling alternate stories, but usually they would, um, at least juxtapose what was supposed to happen. So I was picking up pieces and I was kind of building the lure, um, in the MCU kind of canon, uh, via what if, and they were just fun. Like, they appealed to me. They, uh, were uh, self contained, they were a little more violent. Right? I was always looking for, uh, these piqued my interest in that regard. And I got introduced to a wide variety of writers and artists, because sometimes you have the best of the best, and these, um, name brand artists, uh, on these works and these creators. So for me, it was like, it set the foundation. Um, and I think to this day, I still love a good multiverse and elsewhere story, because, uh, there's no what am I going to say? The stakes are there, but they're also like, at a moderate level, where you're like, okay, this isn't going to impact, like, the canon. This is like a fresh story. The creative team also isn't chained to history, uh, and what came before. It's like, okay, I can kind of just see them have fun. And sometimes you get that feeling of like, oh, they're having a lot of fun playing with these different elements and these different versions. And one of the most impactful multiverse stories that to this day, I think, is maybe in my top five, if not top ten, um, favorite comics of all time. And I think it's a little, um, topical, considering that, um, the week that we've had, but Avengers Forever by Kurt Buzziec, and, uh, Carlos, uh, I would say the last name, right, pcheco mhm is I mean, I can close my eyes and remember reading that for the first time at that point. I credit that story for which is a heavy multiverse, and, you know, uh, different versions of the characters all meeting each other kind of story. But I credit that story for really making it clear, being one of the most clear stories I've ever read about time travel and multiverse. For some reason, maybe I was just getting older and I was getting smarter. Maybe it really just clicked when I read that. I was like, oh, that's how time travel and its impacts on alternate realities work. It was just so well written. It was so clear. Um, and it felt like a challenge too, because there's twelve issues you're dealing with king and all the other stuff very dense. And I mean, I was definitely reading it, maybe a sophomore or junior in high school. Uh, at that point, I was just consuming comics, like left and right. But there was something very special about that, being like, oh, ding. I get multiverse. I get an alternate reality story. So, yeah, I mean, like I said, uh, I love a good multiverse story. A good old world story.
Guido: That's awesome. Yeah. When I think about that series, in terms of how we'll cover it, I have no idea, because for a twelve issue series, it is so dense. There's so much in it. You could probably do twelve episodes, one on each issue. So, I don't know. You will do that and you can join us one day.
Rob: On the other hand, um, I know on ShortBox, you recently covered The Riddler one bad day as well, which we've talked about here. And then you can also have that where it's just going to be okay. It's not the dentist, it's a one off. And me, someone like me, who's a more casual comic reader, just seeing all the Batman titles at my local comic book shop is the most intimidating thing. I would have nowhere to start. But then I can see that one. It's like, okay, I'm going to jump into this one universe that Tom King has created for this one thing and absorb that. That's also awesome. So it's cool you can get really in depth like you're talking about, but you can also get kind of these one off stories, which are great for more casual readers.
Badr Milligan: Exactly. Yeah, it's usually my go to recommendation. Um, when the What If MCU series was popping off, I think we might have done an episode where we all picked our favorite what ifs and did kind of like a book club of it. But yeah, for a new reader, it can be very intimidating to tell them to start Spiderman. Well, it's like, what Spiderman? The current series? The fifth, the 7th vote, whatever it is, but for else worlds and what If, I guess because it just worked on me, that it builds. It's sort of like doing reps. Let's, uh, build your familiarity with the characters. Granted, this isn't like the canon or whatnot, but you'll get the gist of it. And then if you want to dive into the history, there's always that.
Rob: Mhm.
Guido: Yeah, that's a great analogy.
Rob: Well, speaking of diving into the history. Let's kick off our sneakers, let our ankle feathers fly, and go into origins of the story.
Guido: Right now on this very show, you're going to get the answer to all your questions.
Rob: Our amazing story begins a few years ago. And first up, uh, for our origins today, you can go back and listen to episodes 23 and 24 for our first exploration of Namor. But Guido, you're going to give us a quick 30 seconds intro before we talk through each of our own backgrounds with Namor and what we think of him.
Guido: Yeah. So Namor the submariner, aka namor Mackenzie, aka namor or. Now, Akuku Khan is the longest running, uh, marvel character. He was created in 139 by Bill Evert, who wrote and drum for Timely Comics. Marvel Comics one. Namor, of course, returned to Marvel Silver Age through Fantastic Four, showed up in a whole bunch of titles before getting his own, called Submariner. And then throughout the Bronze and modern age, has gone through eras of overuse slots of visibility mixed with moments of total invisibility disappearing from the storyline. He's the child of a human sea captain and an atlantean princess in the comics, now has made his MCU debut solidifying. Not just his place as Marvel's longest running character and quintessential antihero, but also their first Mutant mhm.
Rob: And now that's something you're super excited about, of course. Butter, let's start with your background with Namor. Where do you come to this character from?
Badr Milligan: Uh, my dad's Fantastic Four comics. My dad was a huge Fantastic Four fan, and as a kid, I thought they were the most boring comics in the world. It was like, you know, he had a lot of, you know, like the way those books are written, very dense, a lot of monologuing. Um, but I was familiar with Namor in that. Uh, but there was something that always kind of drew me to Namor. I think it was just like, how brash he was, how strong did he go toe to toe. If Hulk and Thor, those battles would always be so epic. He also had a very sick Widow's peak. I've also been blessed for Widow. We got that in common. Um, and he was one of my dad's favorite characters. Um, and I also recall a lot of, like, the, uh, early name war comics were drawn by John Vaseema. And that guy is one of my favorite artists of all time. I think they call him like, the Michelangelo of comics. But there was something about the way he just drew him on those covers. And issue one comes, uh, to mind. Very old comic, but very regal, very powerful. Um, he was one of my favorite characters in Hickman's. Um, and Secrets new Avengers run in, uh, his clash with Black Panther and that ideology that they had as two, um, monarchs. So, yeah, I've been familiar with name worker for a long time. What I found really interesting in doing the homework that you guys assigned was, it kind of dawned on me, like, this is a character that first debuted in 1939, had a run, kind of fell off the map, and then the Marvel's Golden age happens. Fantastic four. Number 119 61. So 22 years later in, uh, issue four, he comes back. And I was thinking, like, that must have been a moment for long time comic readers of that time. They're talking about 22, maybe less than 22. Let's call a 20 year gap, like, one of the first Marvel, uh, characters. And for him to just show up like that must have been a moment for readers at the time, like, oh, shit, Namar is back. He's been away for 20 years. Yes. I found that kind of cool little piece of history, um, that Stan, uh, Jack and the Marvel team were thinking about that. Let's find ways to revise these old characters. And we look at them now like our names is old as hell. And I don't think it really, um you don't really fade them like no. He is extremely old. We're talking, like, 1939, pre World War Two.
Guido: Yes, that's a great point. I never thought about what it must have been like. If you were old enough in 1964 to remember him from comics in the 40s, then what that must have been like to see him back. That's a good point.
Rob: Yeah. And Guido. What about you? What's your background with Namor?
Guido: He was never someone I liked until Hickman's run, I think, because I also was never that into Fantastic Four. I've become increasingly into it in the last few years, more so and posthickman's work on it. So Namor was because he also was in the background of a lot of the Marvel events other than, like, Atlantis attacks, which I read. I read every marvel event in the but he was never that interesting to me, I think because I just had a resistance to the ocean lore. I wasn't too into this idea of this whole other kingdom, um, and what it meant, and so I dismissed it and ignored him a lot. Hickman uses them. It's amazing. And then he shows up in Avengers versus Xmen and Xmen read by Tom Taylor, which is just one of my favorite Xmen team configurations. So I got more into him. But honestly, it was seeing Namor in Wakanda Forever that has me now in love with the character. Um, and it's not just that I'm in love with Tenochuerta, but M, it is the character. And I'm excited for us to talk about the character because it really made me want to go back now and explore the burn run of Namore from the with Jaylee and stuff that I've always overlooked. So not too deeply familiar, but excited.
Badr Milligan: I would talk about the movie version, um, later on, but I just want to say this version, uh, uh, Tenochworth has captured that heart throb element. I think it made him even more of a heart throb because Namor has always been pretty smooth, right? The way he approaches, uh, Sue Storm in the early Fantastic Fours, he's got like that side to him. But I feel like to, uh, know Schwartz, his portrayal is like ultra smooth. Lover boy. Remember that? Exactly.
Guido: Think, uh, even when I was messaging with you, Botter, I even said or replied to one of your tweets or something. I put like an apostrophe mor. Like I sort of want his name to just be no more, uh, from now on.
Rob: It is that I know. I think they almost said it the other way. Just so we all know, so we don't all feel bad about mispronouncing it for 80 years.
Guido: What's your background?
Rob: It was not a character I knew super well. Uh, like you said, he was always kind of in the background. And for me, yes, I read the comics growing up. But more so. I watched The Animated Series. And he did not have his own show. Unlike the Fantastic Four. Even the Silver Surfer, who's probably more secondary than Namor, had his own show. But yeah, Namor didn't. And the one comic I remember him in from the most was that when Marvel teamed up with the WWF. But not the wrestling, but the World Wildlife Federation. And they did that one comic book.
Guido: Uh, and it has the embossed cover with Wolverine, Cazar, Planet Earth.
Rob: And I was looking global jeopardy. It was called Global Jeopardy. And the history of Namor. I was looking they were trying to make him into a film or TV show for many years. And every single thing was always going to be about saving the environment. So he was always very tied to that. And maybe one of the reasons why I didn't know him so well is I was reading that his rights were kind of very hectic for years. And he jumped around to the different studios and Universal actually controlled the rights, the distribution rights as late as 2018. So that might have been one of the reasons why he was not popping up in the, uh, animated shows or in the live action versions. And he was a little bit more in the background.
Guido: Yeah. Uh, so what do we do? I mean, batter, you have a connection to him because of your father. But what is it about him that you like now as a reader, as a character?
Badr Milligan: Like take no shit attitude. You would never want to hang out with someone like that. You wouldn't want him in your circle. He'd be the guy that you'd go to the bar thinking you're having a good time. But for some reason, you're always like having to break up a fight because he wants to hang out with the guy. But from afar, you do respect. Like, man, that guy takes no shit. He must know what he wants in the world. And he's not going to let anyone stop him. So I think there is a sense of, um, you can admire that to an extent. Um, and I think just the character lore too. Like, uh, I said, having done our episode about Namor and then hopping on doing this one and doing some more reading, it's just crazy, uh, to think that he's been around for so long that even before Marvel Comics was literally called Marvel Comics, uh, that he was going to be, like, one of their first character alongside Human Torch. And it got me thinking about some of the history books I've read about comic books. And for some reason, Alex Ross comes to mind. And him talking about I don't know if he was alive when this book came out. But the issue where Namor and Human Torch fight each other. And I can't recall what issue that was. But um, whoever was talking about I was talking how it was such a big moment to see like, two superheroes fighting each other. And then you got like the Elemental kind of theme, uh, going on fire versus water. Um, so really, I think what still draws me to the character is the way that he hasn't really aged or ah, literally hasn't really aged, but hasn't really changed for the most part. He's still very brash. He's still very regal. Um, he still has a mistrust of the surface world. And regardless if he's like, uh, and what I do also like is that writers are still finding interesting ways to work that mutant angle. Like to really embrace it and have them in positions of the X Men and see that juxtaposition. And then, like, we brought up Hickman's Run. See, his juxtaposition was like Black Panther. He's a character that you can kind of put in with anyone, with anything. And you're going to have some interesting dialogue because he's like that fire starter. So you're going to get some cool, like drama or bickering and back and forth. He's a very petty guy.
Guido: You know, it is neat to see. Uh, we went back and looked at the 139 Marvel Comics one to see since that was not even written with an intent of like a recurring character or anything like that. But all of those traits are there. And it is interesting when you see that because that's so rare for a character to be introduced with these personality traits, to be introduced as an antihero, probably maybe one could argue one of the first comic book antiheroes, certainly superhero comic book antiheroes. I mean, the issue ends with him saying he's going to continue his further adventures in his crusade against white men. Like he's positioned as an antihero solidly. And that attitude he has, it's neat that that has been so consistent for a character who was sort of rebooted when he found his way into the Fantastic Four. But they kept all those pieces.
Badr Milligan: I. Think consistent is the word I, uh, was trying to aim for. He has been consistently the same person, uh, this whole time. He's been true to himself. The interesting thing comes in when he's, like, depending on what writer gets them and where they put them, whether they have the X Men or with the new Avengers and etc. And just to, um, recap, I quickly looked it up that Namor and Human Torch fight was in Marvel Comics number nine. So eight issues after both of their debut, that epic kind of big battle goes on.
Rob: And you even mentioned it, Botter. But I was reading that one of the reasons Bill Everett created him as is, is because the android Human Torch had already been created, and he wanted that fire and water element. And it's so interesting that even when Namor reemerges in Fantastic Four many years later, it is the Johnny Storm Human Torch that's the one that actually finds him there as well. And like the hot headedness of Johnny Storm and the literal hotheadedness of Johnny Storm with the literal and figurativeness of Namor, those characters have always been connected in one way or another.
Badr Milligan: Yeah, that's a good reference.
Rob: Yeah.
Guido: Ah, good point.
Rob: Well, speaking of Namor and the Human Torch, why don't we explore our multiversity.
Badr Milligan: I am your guy. Through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if?
Rob: And today we are discussing what if submariner. That's volume one, issue number one from February 2006. And the story is entitled what If Prince Namor of Atlantis Grew Up on Land?
Guido: And this is written by Greg Pack pencilled by David Lopez inked by Jay Layston and Scott Hannah covered. Colored by Laverne Kansirsky lettered by David Lanfer edited by Mark Panetia and Nathan Cosby And in terms of those two creators, greg Pack is very, uh, known to most Marvel readers. He's still writing extraordinary comics, predominantly for Marvel, where he's written hundreds and hundreds of books, including Xmen, Hulk, Agents of Atlas, Star Wars titles. And this is one of two whatifs that he wrote. And David Lopez was primarily a cover artist for Marvel until this issue when he was doing interiors. He actually doesn't do the COVID of this issue, only the interiors. And he's done a few dozen interiors since for Marvel through to this year. And he's done some work on Catwoman for DC. And he cocreated Fallen Angel with Peter David for IDW, which is a favorite of mine. Was a favorite of mine. He used to love that series. Those are our creators. And then Botter, do you want to try to give us a sense of what is happening in this issue?
Badr Milligan: Yeah. Hell yeah. All right, let me take a stab at it synopsis, because I always think like those do a good job of getting this level set, and I'll add to that. So the synopsis for this issue of what if? Reads the history books tell us that young Prince Namor, the proud son of an Atlantean princess, joined the Allied fight against the Nazis in order to protect his undersea people. But what if Namor grew up on land of his human father, filled with hatred for the Atlanteans who killed his mother? For whom will he fight when World War II sweeps the planet and Atlantis calls for help? And then, what terrifying ways might the course of history be changed forever? Now, add on to that, uh, we do see name or side of the surface world, so no, uh, surprise there. Specifically America as kind of like a secret weapon CIA agent to uh, fight against the Nazis when the war pops off alongside Jim Hammond, the original android Human Torch. As uh, the story progresses and as the war ends, a small group of Nazis seeking revenge on the world after suffering defeat, not only discover, but also enslave the kingdom of Atlantis who at this time don't have any more there. He's kind of picked sides, he's kind um, of casted away his Atlantean birthright. Uh, so these Nazis, the small kind of like sector or breakoff uh, sect of Nazis, believe that the original and great Aryan race were the original Atlantean or at least came from the original Atlanteans before their bloodline became tainted. And some of those, um, join like the surface world. The, uh, small group of Nazis find a way to also merge their blood of the Atlanteans to become superhumans. So not only have they enslaved the Atlanteans, but also decided uh, to experiment on them to become Atlantean kind of hybrids themselves. They've uh, also managed to turn the Human Torch, who Namor, uh, thought to be dead after a mission um, went wrong. They uh, managed to turn the Human Torch into a bomb. And Namor tries his best to attain two goals at this point defeat these underwater Nazi superhumans and save his best friend's life. Unfortunately, both of those attempts are robbed of him by the American government, who decides to, uh, basically, uh, uh, initiate the Human Torch bomb, uh, destroying Atlantis and believing that they've also killed off Namor in an attempt to destroy Atlantis, but also cover up the existence of Atlantis with hopes that no one will ever utilize these superpowered citizens or be a threat to the world order again. Of course, the story ends like most what ifs with a rather kind of open plot thread of name or uh, being alive in uh, a way kind of swearing a silent oath of vengeance. Uh, the way I kind of interpret it is that it went full circle, where now Namor has the fire in him and the reason to hate the surface world.
Guido: Mhm, yeah, thank you for that. That covered everything that happens on this Earth. Seven one seven issue, I'm correct.
Badr Milligan: I was like, I'm on the deal. Watch game.
Guido: Yeah. So what do you all think of it?
Badr Milligan: Rob do you want to take that.
Guido: One for initial opinions?
Rob: I don't know. I'm a sucker for these kind of stories that are these alternative not just alternative universes, but really alternative histories and going back into the past. Especially, I guess, because we have mythologized World War II so much, and because the Nazis can always be a villain and we're involved in the occult and experimentations, they're so easy to kind of further explore. I'm a big JSA fan, and the JSA had many stories that were very similar to this, where we're exploring the JSA during World War II, and that the Nazis have now taken up some kind of occultism. They've partnered with the Norse gods in that story. So I was seeing a lot of similarities here, and it just seems like it's a classic story of, oh, you take this prodigal son who then leaves his homeland, or doesn't even want to embrace his homeland, and then has this difficult decision to stay what he really considers home. And then seeing the ramifications from that, that really, to me, is almost the what if question of this less than what if he grew up on land? M, rather than even what if he had embraced that water life, the undersea life.
Badr Milligan: Yeah, I thought the, um, title, but I think you can always sometimes point to some of the what if titles can be a little misleading, maybe not meant to be taken quite literal. Uh, but yeah, I agree with you 100%. I think the bigger question was, what if Namor, uh, declined his birthright and decided to live a life, um, on land? But I thought the catalyst for that decision for him was a cool twist where his mother dies due to the Atlanteans kind of like being on the hunt for her and her soon to be a, ah, born child. I thought that was a unique twist. And I mean, we've kind of seen this story a lot of times, right? Like promised. Um, Prince Ah or King declines his birthright. In the beginning, something catastrophic happens and he realizes, like, oh, I've got a bigger responsibility than, uh, myself. For some reason, it made me think of the infamous Spiderman saying, with great power must also come great responsibility. He's denying that responsibility, uh, to live this life as a secret agent and fighting alongside America. Um, so to see it all kind of come to fruition, I thought story wise, it was a rather complete story. I do think the pacing in the beginning was a little quick. I was like, man, this is going.
Guido: By pretty fast, because Pac introduces these plot elements, like this idea that he's an outcast. And there's that really sort of dark scene where he's trying to cut off the wings off his ankles because he doesn't want to be a freak. So Pack is like, doing a lot of character building work, but it happens really fast because he only has a few pages to do it.
Badr Milligan: So it does feel like, I think, the jump between him, um, basically declining, uh, the Atlanteans offer I forget the name of the characters that showed up, like, hey, come back to come back home. Um, between that and then him just becoming a badass, like, kind of weapon for America, I think that just happened so quick. And I would have loved to maybe see that fleshed out a little bit as far as him embracing his role in the training and meeting Jim Hammond, because immediately it just takes you into like, all right, he works at the CIA. He, uh, is friends with Jim Hammond and Go. Now, Grant, it is a 26 issue comic book. I think this is one that maybe would have benefited from being maybe like a 32, maybe a 50, um, to get that full kind of emphasis. But, uh, overall, Greg Peck, to me, is such a strong writer. He can't really do no wrong in my book.
Guido: I agree. I'm a big fan of his, and I think what he does here that's really cool, that made me really like this a lot, is the elements from Namors Timely Comics version that he pulls in. So not just Jim Hammond, but even Namore's playing a role in World War II. And I know that in Marvel Comics, modern comics, there have been lots of invader stories told telling that story. Obviously, in this Earth, the invaders never form. So it's cool that Pack decides to explore, like, okay, what role would he play in World War II, and what role would Atlantis play in World War II? And so I liked those elements. And then, like you said, the fact that it ends, it does what a lot of classic whatifs do, which is it sort of returns you to the status quo in this different Earth. So the fact that it ends almost like the 1939 Timely Comics I was saying, it ends with him saying, like, we'll see more adventures of his war against men. This ends with, like you said, a, uh, clear suggestion that he is now going to take vengeance on the surface. And that is now what the American government is afraid of, is that because they realized his name meant a venging son in this Earth. So it's cool that Pac holds on to so much of what's core to the story, but tells it in this totally different timeline that is a totally different world. So I like that, too.
Rob: Yeah, I think there's a strong element in all of the need more stories, but it comes out here, too, about this idea of passing or fitting into society. And you can see also allusions to race in that way as well. And you have that with the segment where his peers are trying to pressure him into jumping into the water. And he can't because both he was told to stay away from the water, but it would also reveal his, uh, wings on his ankles and that idea. And then that's continued with his conversation with the Hammond Human Torch, where they're saying, well, the soldiers love us when we're fighting, but afterwards, do they see us as human, do they see us as an ah, android and as this sea man? And also, I think that perfectly ties into him also being a mutant. And it's like such a core xmen idea, as well as who can pass, who can't, and even with the human, with the Fantastic Four as well, where you have the thing as the one character who can't pass. And then, of course, sue with Reed, who can walk amongst people, and that kind of conflict also with Namor, who can kind of be of both worlds. So I feel like that's such a core element to the character as well.
Badr Milligan: Yeah. Greg Pack is someone that understands those core attributes of the character really well. That's what I meant. Um, in kind of going back to our earlier conversation about Namor being very consistent, I think he is a character that, when he first debuted, you kind of got the full gist of them right, like royalty, uh, a mutant, um, very angry for these reasons. So I feel like you didn't really have to build a lot, like, you didn't really need to be built upon that much. Like, you could just explore those, uh, facets of him. And I think that's what I enjoyed about this was Greg Pack clearly shows, like, I have a very good understanding of the character because he came out the gate relatively pretty interesting and pretty well rounded. Um, and it feels like a very complete Namor story where he explores all those different shades of him, like, all right, let's touch on him being a mutant dealings, like, being an outsider, and like this birthright of his.
Guido: Yeah, I agree. You mentioned this could be a longer issue. So before we leave Earth Seven One Seven, would we want more from this? I'll start I think it could be a miniseries, honestly. I think it could have been a few issues because he could have filled in some of that trauma as a young person. He could have filled in, like you said, the gap between that moment and him becoming an agent could have filled in more of his relationship with Hammond. And then certainly there's a sequel here of like, how does he attack this world? And the world power should be slightly imbalanced because there were hybrid Nazis living under the water. So we can imagine the world might be a little different for other reasons.
Badr Milligan: Yeah, I think aside from kind of filling in or letting some of the early, uh, character building moments breathe, this could easily be, uh, a, uh, mini series. Because now because to me, this namor is little more softer around the edges. He clearly has that rage in him from being an outsider and having to keep that secret. But there was some sort of compassion with them, too, when he's talking to him. And the fact that he wanted to save his friend, even though technically his friend, for the most part, was kind of dead already, the Nazis basically were using his dead body and robot parts to power this bomb. He, uh, still wanted to save him. That kind of cost him his kingdom. But I would have been interested to see how he would deal with the fact that he once only knew of the surface world, and that's what he called home, and that's where he originally cited. Now he's got to turn against them, right. And, um, really explore his Atlantean side because we're so accustomed to 6162 seeing the reverse of that, where he's fully entrenched in being proud atlantean having no kind, uh, of disowning the surface world and in that connection. But in this one, it's reversed. And now you're like, okay, now he's got to explore what it means to be atlantean that history and, uh, his people.
Rob: Mhm. Yeah, and maybe there's even a sequel where the Americans are trying to copy the Nazi experiment and the Americans are going, well, hey, we want to be superhuman that can breathe underwater and on land, too. And how does Namor feel about that? And that certainly can show the gray areas of all of where he's functioning as this kind of super spy. And yes, that could be a really.
Badr Milligan: Interesting story also, and I wouldn't mind seeing more of, like, just David Lopez's art. Um, he wasn't an artist. That is at the top of my mind when I saw his name, but by the end of it, I was like, this dude. Ah, his art is very beautiful. Um, he makes it feel like you're underwater without being kind of awkward about it. Um, his action scenes are great. I thought. He's just a very strong artist. And the colors, too, like, complements, um, his line art really well.
Guido: Yeah, I agree. Especially when I saw that this was his first interior work. It's so cool that he'd done so much.
Badr Milligan: He knocked it out the gate, like I said. Um, and I think that whole, Ah point I made about this name or being a little more compassionate and softer on the edges, I think is all linked to just, uh, david Lopez portrayal of the character. Like, a lot of it is like a level of softness to his artwork.
Guido: Yeah, I think that's a great point, and I agree about the art.
Rob: Well, let us hook a ride on a whale and journey over to the nation of Wakanda as we ponder some possibilities. Will the future you describe so, Guido, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?
Guido: Well, this was an easy one. We just came out, so we're talking about that version of no More and seeing how it ties in.
Rob: And this would be when the spoilers will be abundant, let's imagine. So if you haven't seen Wakanda Forever, you can turn us off, go listen to an episode of the Short Box podcast, and then go see the movie. And then once you've done both of those things, you can finish this episode. But this is Black Panther Wakanda forever. The MCU film from 2022.
Guido: And it's directed by Ryan Coogler, who did the story, and the screenplay is by him and Joe Robert Cole. It's produced by Kevin Feige and Nate Moore, and, of course, starring Teno Schwartz, mejia credited as Tano Schwartz, who is our Namor in this movie. So I think we're all fans, right? It seems clear we're all fans of his portrayal.
Rob: Yeah.
Badr Milligan: Uh, Namir's introduction into you couldn't have gone any better. I don't know what to really expect. I think I was so focused on, um, how they were going to handle Chadwick Bosemann passing the mantle of Black Panther. Um, I was looking forward to Namor, uh, making his introduction and seeing that play out. But I guess I vastly underestimated how much of a captivating, uh, performance I was going to get from Tenoch mhm.
Guido: I think what was a part of his performance for me, that made me just fall totally in love with the character and through his performance, is that he does everything we've described is part of the character of Namor. He's intense, but he also has a charm and a charisma to him. And he has a passion that's good. Right. He has a passion for his people or for taking care or a cause. But he also is willing to do something that makes him really dark and that makes him the antihero through the entire film, through to the final epilogue of the film. Right. Again, with that consistency and through Tasha's really incredible performance, I was swayed by his argument. And I am someone who does not like violence. I'm someone who does not like oppression either, and would like to dismantle it. And his conversations with Shorey, like, I was swayed. I was like, yeah, you know what?
Badr Milligan: Maybe these two should burn it down.
Guido: Uh, I think maybe he's onto something so that's his performance, like, really pulled me in, but kept the fact that this character shouldn't be someone we support. Maybe that's where it was so good to me.
Badr Milligan: Yeah, that little bit of dark side to him is what keeps him so interesting. And I think that's what's kept him so consistently interesting throughout the years, is, like, he's going to have moments of heroism where he does the right thing, maybe for the, um, larger majority, but at the end of the day, like, it's all about him. Like, he's doing this for him and his people. And that's always going to take precedence. I might save the world, the Avengers, because it also impacts me. But then I'm going to turn around and make this decision or do this action, uh, that comes in correct conflict with them. And I thought that was still prevalent in the movie here where it was like he's like a chess master. He was thinking like, step ahead. And like you said, the epilogue, right? He could have been seen as like a sign of weakness, but and, you know, we kind of take it like, oh, thank God they stopped fighting. They arrived at a mutual agreement. And it's like, well, the only reason he agreed is because he's thinking ten steps ahead. Like, oh, well, they don't have any allies. Oh, they're going to get into war later on. I'm going to play a cool right now.
Rob: Yeah. Mhm. You can definitely see shades. I thought it was very smart to have him be, in some ways a variation too, on Killmonger's motivations from the first film. Because Killmonger wants to also, in some ways, better the world by having repressed people be championed by Wakanda. But at the same time, you always get the sense that Killmonger also wants power and he wants to uplift himself. That's why he also destroys all the heartshaped herb in the first movie. He wants to be the guy. And I think with Namor in this new movie, you get that it's a more defensive and less offensive approach to it. He wants first and foremost to protect his kingdom and his people. But at the same time, he's realizing, like, Killmonger, hey, between the two of us, we could make the world a better place. But you don't get that sense of ego that his predecessor had. Kind of trying to get the same end results.
Badr Milligan: Awesome point on, uh, that defense point, because the whole catalyst for this, right, is the illusion and the secrecy of Atlantis is now jeopardized. So he's got to get ahead of it, right? Like I said, he's thinking two steps ahead, where it's like, okay, they're looking for vibranium in the ocean. It's going to come to a point. We stopped them now, but this is going to continue happening. So either you guys stop it. Um, but at the end of the day, he also had, like man. Uh, I guess I just admired his cunningness and the fact that, you know, there was that bravado and that facade of, like, he just the outward appearance was, like, you know, very charming, very, like, thoughtful. Like, you know, he's coming from a good place, but it almost felt like he had the ace in his hand the whole time. His real plan of wanting to go to war was something that like, uh, it played with me big time.
Rob: Yes. I also think I want to give some props to Ryan coogler and Kevin Feige and Nate More and the designers for really staying comic book true to the character in pretty much, uh, every way in terms of his look, because I think there was a lot of discourse when it was mentioned that he was going to be a character. You can't do the green speedo or you can't do the wings on the feet. Like, these things are all silly. And then, sure enough, when they made the movie, he looks there's new elements that they incorporated, especially taking from the Mayan culture. But the general look with the speedo, uh, with the wings is there. And I definitely think I'm very glad that they did not just discard that because oh, that's so silly. Oh, that's something that was created 1939. No, let's actually honor that and add to it.
Badr Milligan: If anything, this version is such this canon just makes so much sense for it to be based on mesoamerican. Ah. And for them to create, like their own this talicon culture. Um, you see them with the beads, the jewelry, it's like, well, yeah, the green speedos makes a lot of sense. You know, it just fits so well. Um, into your point about the initial discourse. I think that was something that we even joked about, was like, you think they'll do the wing feet? That is so comic booky like, this silly idea of, like, wings on someone's ankles. Um, very tiny wings lifting a, whatever, 200 pound man in the air. So the idea but seeing it in action, I thought that was the coolest shit ever. Like the fact that he's so powerful and he's got these wings on his feet that move so fast. And yes, they nailed it. Like such a great portrayal of the character and afresh, um, just like the idea of talicon and it felt like such a believable world. You're like, no, this all makes sense. Uh, this is what he should look like.
Guido: Yeah, that's my one struggle now. And this is, I think, why they try not to make too many decisions about characters that are going to diverge from the comics. Because I'm like, I want that comic. I want the Mayan people in the water, in the civilization, not the Atlanteans. So it's hard now. I have to sort of transpose in my mind as I go back and read a lot more of his stories, because I want those connections. And I imagine they'll start making them in the books, because often influences is inevitable. One, um, thing I loved, too, that they did. And it's interesting to me that Greg Pack also rewrote the origin of his name. Because, of course, the origin of his name is that it's Roman backwards. But Pack came up with the idea that it means avenging sun. But one of my favorite moments in this movie was it being no love for the surface. That moment when he was like, no more, because he has no love for the surface dwellers. That, uh, struck me. And I was like, oh, my God, I am in love with this concept. So that was such a cool retooling of his name and how it fits into the Mayan origin taking, obviously. No and amore.
Badr Milligan: Uh, my buddy said that was one of the greatest rap names he's ever heard in his life. You said something at the beginning about, um, uh uh, atlantis always kind of being boring to you. And I felt the same way as a kid and maybe even now, but I could care less about Atlantis because it's basically, like, Grecoromantype culture. And I've just seen so much of that now. Grant. I love Greek mythology. I love Roman mythology. But Atlanta, to me, just always seemed rather boring. Like, the identity wasn't that enticing or that unique. Um, it was just like, all right, the Greek Roman Empire is underwater with fish around. Um, this version, though, was really refreshing to see. And to your point, I wouldn't mind. And I'm always someone that's like, um, man Marvel, just stay strong. You don't always have to mimic the, um you don't always have to mimic the movies. But this is a case where I'm, like, actually go and dive into this a little more.
Guido: Exactly. I'd like Wanda to be a mutant, but I'd like Namar to be Mayan. Yeah.
Rob: Gito and I were saying yesterday that it feels like a missed opportunity for them to speaking of multiverses and alternate universes, to just do a comic line that is a bit more tied to the movies. And then you can kind of have it both ways. Have Namor, have the backgrounds, have the MJ and the Ned and the young Aunt May of that Spiderman universe. And you have that in the comic. It seems like for as we were saying, for a company that's obsessed with synergy and making sure the shows are on ABC and on Jimmy Kimmel, and all the same time it seems like a no brainer to just let's just do another alternate universe exploring this anymore in comics and then we can keep the canonical comics anymore as is, so we don't piss off those fans too.
Badr Milligan: Yeah. Damn, that's a fucking great idea. Because you're also thinking, like, wouldn't that benefit potential new readers that are looking for the MCU stuff? I know I can say my friends and people I know that fall in love with the MCU, the reason why they don't get the comics, it looks nothing like it. They don't feel that synergy. Um, they don't feel that synergy there. So that's a solid point that the MCU should have its own line of comics within Marvel, whether it be what if or, like, kind of like an ultimate line. Um, yeah, I feel like people would be eating those comics up.
Rob: Yes.
Guido: Agreed. So do we see any connection to Greg Pack's alternate Namor? Namor of seven one seven in the movie depiction?
Badr Milligan: I think that maybe, uh, what I brought up about, like, the Greg Pack Namor being a little more soft around the edges, a little more likable, a little more understanding. I. Think that character attribute, um, like you had brought up like this namor namor, uh, seems m I won't say he leads with his heart. I think he leaves with heart and his mind. I think his heart is actually play rather than being so quick to, uh, make, uh, a decision. I felt like with, um, the traditional comic name, or it is really black and white for him. It's rarely ever any gray. That's just, to me, like, how he makes his decisions. He doesn't take time for maybes and all that. He's about his action. But Namor in the movie was like Methodical Lord of Fantasy. That's how I felt about the Greg Pack namor, uh, is that he didn't have all the answers. And at this point in story, his confidence wasn't, like, completely concrete. So he was like malleable. He was talking to Hammond about what it's like to be an outsider and experiencing being an outsider.
Rob: Yes, I can't speak to some of his later appearances, but certainly when you read him the Jack and Stan era, he's a little rapey. He's picking up sue and throwing her around and making a lot of orders. And you definitely don't get that when he's interacting with Shirley in this movie, it is much softer. And also their approach to how maybe this also changed over time. But I know how Stan wrote him is very lofty oratorical very big shakespearean light, almost. And here you definitely don't get that sense. And Greg Pack also does the same thing, where he's much more relatable. And I think in the Greg Pack one, you could say, well, it's because he was growing up on Earth. He doesn't speak like that. Uh, and here, I think maybe it was a decision for the film to make him also a little bit more digestible, but I think it was a smart decision to avoid that style of speaking.
Guido: The other connection I make and Barr, you sort of mention the outsiderness, and I'd say what's true for both the MCU, Namor and Greg Packs on seven one seven is also the trauma, informing who they are. And maybe that's a part of the six one six character at some point, but it's not clear in his early origin issues, at least, and in Pac doing those scenes where he's being not even just the loss of his mother, which, of course, is a trauma. And in the six one six, it's the loss of his father. And so that trauma exists, but the ostracizing that he's experiencing and the rejection, and then that extraordinary scene in the movie when he comes back to the surface as a child and has the colonizers and the violence that he's witnessing and really decides, like, that's it, he's done. So I think that's another interesting thing that both this alternate Earth and the MCU are pulling out of the character.
Badr Milligan: I think the big, drastic difference that I noticed from, like, the traditional Namor, um, in the comics. I mean, we all might have seen it because I read Fantastic Four, issue Four, which is the first appearance of basic Namor in the, uh, Marvel universe that we know, uh, his motivation for hating the surface world. I thought this was really quick, and I kind of attribute that to maybe just the way comics were written back then. They're not going to spend a lot of time on explaining and diving into the mind of the character. But he wakes up from Indonesia. He jumps into the water. He goes to find Atlantis. He finds that all of his friends basically, like, move because where they were at is polluted. And from there, it's like, boom, okay. I hate the surface world, looking for your friends. And that's safe to say, like, a big, uh, motivation for the character throughout the years. Just that environmentalist in him for the most part, right? Like, surface world, fucks over the ocean. We pollute, uh, overfish things like that, which is, uh, an interesting motivation for such a hot headed, brash, strong, regal character that he cares about the environment. That's kind of cool. I noticed a complete absence in that in the not only Greg Pack, um, version of Namor, but also in the MCU version, they didn't approach it from an environmental standpoint. It kept in line with Ryan Coogler's Black Panther, which is addressing indigenous people, the impact of, uh, colonialism. Um, so I thought that it made sense. But I did notice that, oh, wow. There is no sense of like, he never brings up, like, oh, look, the world is polluting in my ocean.
Guido: That's a great point.
Rob: They figured the global Jeopardy comic took care of it all. Just go read that. That's all you need.
Guido: Well, I think that's a wrap, because, Butter, I'm sure you have, I think, probably 28 more episodes of podcasts to record today. Right?
Badr Milligan: I will say, I was thinking last night, like, why do I do this myself on my weekends?
Rob: We're always saying the same thing.
Badr Milligan: Yes, and that's why I was telling you guys to be podcaster for ten years. A lot of people are like, man, that's really awesome and commend me, and I appreciate it. But I always want to tell people, look, don't applaud my craziness. Please don't apply how crazy I am. I'm recording an episode of the ShortBox today. I did a what not show last night. I got to edit this Black Panther episode. It's like, my weekends are dedicated to pie, but I love it. I'm sure you guys can relate where it's like, it truly is a labor of love and only labor.
Guido: Thank you.
Rob: Dedicated your time today to be here.
Badr Milligan: That was a lot of fun. Like I said, I think the concept of your show is awesome. You guys bring a really awesome points. Uh, you guys don't just look at the surface. Well, a lot of puns going on. You guys have a good level of comics. You guys do a great job of exploring the, um, different themes and motives. And I love that in comics because, you know, to me it is an art form and it is the best art form because you're getting like best of both worlds. You're getting like literature and themes and topics, uh, that existentialism, things like that. And you're getting great artwork. You know, the comics are the totally the best art form and you guys do it justice.
Rob: Thank you.
Guido: Thank you for that.
Rob: And if you want to hear a great podcast botter, can you tell people where they can find you and what other shows, how they can follow you on The Socials and all that good stuff?
Badr Milligan: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you can check out The ShortBox Podcast, a comic book talk show on your favorite podcast app. So whatever you're using to listen to dear watchers. Look, uh, for the ShortBox, right? Look for the gauntlet logo. We're on Apple podcast spotify pretty much everywhere that podcasts are. Like I said in the beginning, we've been doing it for almost ten years. We're on episode 374. I say this with a money back guarantee. We have probably talked about your favorite comic book. If you interviewed your favorite comic book creator, there is an episode or two or ten or 50 of them for you over at The ShortBox, and you can follow us on social media, uh, by really just going to ShortBox Jacks, J. ax.com or uh, looking for us on, uh, Instagram and Twitter at The ShortBox. Jacks.
Rob: Yeah, you literally have one a day for a year and then some, um, and then some change. So that could be a challenge for some.
Badr Milligan: No, you just gave me, uh, that is a great sales pitch. We're at that point now where you can listen to The ShortBox for a year straight. I've, uh, always wanted to because I get emails and I think that's the benefit of having so many episodes is when new listeners join the show. They've got such a long back m, and at some point, um, we stopped being so topical and tried to do evergreen episodes. Uh, but I always want to email back those people like, yo, thanks for jumping in. Can you tell me at what point we got really good? Because early on, um, I just know we probably had like two or three different strides where it's like, oh, we just got better. I always been curious from someone that takes the time to listen to that catalog, what are their thoughts on the progression? Do the whole for me, right, yeah, totally.
Rob: We'll go back and see that people are listening to our first episode of this show and it's like, maybe don't start at the beginning.
Badr Milligan: I'm over here advocating, uh, for easier jumping, um, on points for comic readers. Uh, and I'm over here contradicting myself, like jumping on episode 242. Don't worry about the others. I want to also just shamelessly plug. It's been on my mind the whole time, ever since the intro. But this Golden Girls as the Avengers sweatshirt that you guys have on your, uh, coffee is fucking, um, amazing. It's so rad.
Rob: I wore the t shirt version to New York Comic Con, and I can tell you that it was the number one thing that people were stopping us the whole weekend. We're like, Where can I get that shirt? What is that? That's amazing. So if you wear that at your next Comic Con, you're sure to make good friends. That could be our salespench. Awesome. Yes. And you can find that at our Coffee page. You can support your, uh, watchers at coffee. You can read fun little essays that we write, get bonus episodes there. And where else can people find us?
Guido: Our reading list and links to Badr's work will, uh, be in the show notes. You can follow us online anywhere at, uh, deerwatchers dearwatchers.com has those other links to coffee.
Rob: And please leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.
Guido: And in the meantime, in the words of Uatu, keep pondering the possibilities.