Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Rob: Welcome to Dear Watchers in Omniversal comic book podcast, where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.
Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up the omniverse of fictional reality we all love. And your watchers on this journey are me, gido and Me.
Rob: Oh, let me take my helmet off so you know who it is. It's me, Rob. And we have an additional traveling companion here with us today. A legend in the comic Geek audio world, the unstoppable force that is James Enstall, host of Geek To Me Radio. Welcome, James.
James from Geek To Me Radio: Hi, thanks for having me, guys. I'm excited.
Guido: Thank you for joining. Geek to Me Radio is a favorite of ours. We listen to the podcast, but, uh, our listeners can find you on Sunday nights because you're live on the radio on Sunday nights in the St. Louis area. You have over 350 episodes, but you're also a great person to follow because you do incredible interviews. You post videos from all of the con hopping. You do great pictures. So you really are a legend. And thank you for taking time to join us and suggesting this issue.
James from Geek To Me Radio: I'm super excited. I very much appreciate it. I've listened to you guys and we talked a little bit before the show started about your process for editing. It seems so seamless because I've listened to your shows, but now I know the secret of how you do it now. So that's great. But your last issue, you were talking about speeding bullets, which is one of my favorite elf world tales. And, uh, the stuff you guys cover is always so much fun. So I'm super excited to cover one of my favorite issues of What If.
Guido: Thank you. Yes, I am too.
Rob: Thank you for being here, James. And before we begin today's travel, itinerary what's new with usquito. In our section of the multiverse, we're.
Guido: Working on our summer plans because that's going to be our two year anniversary and our 100th episode we just celebrated. Ten Cent takes his two year anniversary with them over on their latest episode. So you can hear a question we submitted to their anniversary, but we have some interviews coming up. We have an epic storyline kingdom come that we are finally covering coming up. And so follow us on social media. You can follow our coffee kofi at, uh, deerwatchers.com for updates of what we're up to and what plans we have coming.
Rob: And if you are joining us, for the first time, we have three parts of our journey today. Origins of the story, what inspired this other reality? Exploring multiversity. We dive deeper into our alternate universe and pondering possibilities. We examine the impact and what's followed or coming in the future.
Guido: And if you're enjoying what you're hearing, please leave a review and follow us online.
Rob: And with that, Dear Watchers, welcome to episode 90, and let's check out what's happening in The Omniverse with our travels to today's alternate universe. Today, when we get our passport stamped, it will say, we went to a world where the question that was asked and answered is, what if Professor X, aka Charles Xavier, had become the Juggernauts?
Guido: And this is marvel. Earth 905. It's an Earth that comes from the pages of what if with this one key story being told there. Nine five is using the date numbering. So the issue is May 1990, hence, nine five. And before we get into our issues and our trip to Earth 905, we'll talk about Juggernaut. But first, James, why this issue?
James from Geek To Me Radio: This was not my first issue of what if, but it was just one I glommed onto as a kid. I was entranced by it. I, uh, kind of helped cement Juggernaut as one of my favorite Marvel characters. Just the idea of the what if, because I think my previous first what if had been what if the alien costume had possessed Spiderman? And I was like, well, this is very cool that they have all these other alternate things that could have happened. So I kind of started to do a deeper dive. And a friend of mine said, here, read this one. I'm an X Men fan. You'll probably like this one because you like X Men too. And it was amazing. Between the COVID art that Ron Lim did, just has Juggernaut front and center on that cover, uh, the idea of all this, we'll get into it later, obviously. But what he does to the Fantastic Four and Daredevil and everything like that, uh, just it was so, uh, grand in scope. And it made me kind of go back and kind of dig into X Men comics a little bit more, too. So it was gateway, uh, drug, if you will, to the world of what if. X men in general.
Guido: I think the good alternate universes do that, right? Like, they sort of wet your appetite, and then you want more of the main universe so you can get all the context that helped build that alternate universe. Right.
Rob: It's like a sample platter. Then you can dive in and have more of that particular dish.
James from Geek To Me Radio: Exactly.
Rob: And speaking of this week's particular dish, it's the Juggernauts, aka Kane Marco. He was created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby in the pages of X Men in 1965, which we will dive back into in a few minutes. Juggernaut, the sometimes villain, sometimes X Man, sometimes antihero, always heavy drinking, immovable character is deeply linked to the X Man, though he has his own series at times. He's shown up in Doctor Strange, Thor, Iron Man, Spiderman, SheHulk Deadpool, and many other marvel titles over the years. The character has also had some of the most on screen adaptations, too, with appearances in X Men Three, the Last Hand, everybody's favorite movie, deadpool, two X Men the Animated Series, Superhero Squad, spiderman and his Amazing Friends, wolverine and the x Men, x Men Evolution, and even more that are really not worth mentioning. But and he's also appeared in multiple video games. I remember trying to defeat him in Arcade's Revenge many times and probably failing.
Guido: And you can listen to our episode 35, which goes into Juggernaut because we look at what happens if he kills Xavier. And episode 59 is she Hulk visiting an alternate Earth and having sex with Juggernaut. So we talked about him a bit there.
Rob: That happened.
Guido: And the last place you can go in our back catalog is episode 44 has Xavier becoming yet another character in Doctor Strange fate. So you can check all those out for some more context on today's episode.
Rob: And speaking of context, let's talk a little bit about our backgrounds with Juggernaut and also Professor Xavier, too. So, James, as our special guest, why didn't you go first? What's your background with these two characters with Juggernaut?
James from Geek To Me Radio: The very first introduction I had for him because I started reading comic books, Marvel, uh, primarily because of the Acts of Vengeance crossover. My very first Marvel comic was when Spiderman got cosmic powers. I'm like, what is this? So I started reading all the other ones with the little Acts of Vengeance thing up in the corner of the comic. And I stumbled across Thor number 312, which was him fighting Juggernaut, the new warriors first appearance and everything like that. Um, so I was like, this is a really cool character. He's just a behemoth. Nothing can stop him. So I started going back and finding other instances of his appearances and kind of picked up like Doctor Strange 182, which was an older issue, obviously. His, uh, fight against Spiderman and Amazing Spiderman 229, 230, which are if anyone asks me what story defines Spiderman, that storyline that he never he knows he's outmatched, hopelessly outgunned, and he never stops going after Juggernaut, which is, uh, another great introduction to Juggernaut as well. People aren't familiar, but I'd say those kind of were my introductions. And I was obsessed with getting every single appearance of Juggernaut that I could.
Guido: What is it about him that you like so much?
James from Geek To Me Radio: I think the fact that he does seem unbeatable. And I think that's kind of, uh, one of those things that's like every hero, well, he's unbeatable. So I'm just going to let it I'll let him do his thing. Every hero stands up to him. And I think the saying every hero is only as good as his baddest villain or his worst villain. I can't even talk. It's early in the morning for me in St. Louis. I apologize. But he's gone up against all these m different heroes and not one of them flinch, not one of them walk away, even though they know they might get creamed by this guy because he is just so unstoppable. And I like that idea because they've done a great job. Every writer who's handled it uh, has done a good job. We've seen this with Superman where a lot of writers don't know how to write him because he's too powerful. Every writer has written the Juggernaut in a way that's either relatable to the reader, like, oh, we feel bad for this guy because when he befriended, um oh, now I'm trying to think of the X Men. Like Tom. Uh, no, the X Men who he kind of took under his wing when he was a good guy for a while. Uh, anyway, he'll come to me later. Uh, but he's got this vulnerability. He does kind of want to be a better person. You see a growth arc for the character throughout the decades he's been around. So he's not just a heavy, but then the people who have written him also are good at. Yeah, this guy's unstoppable, but he's got this vice that can be exploited and stuff like that. So I think that's what makes the character exciting to me.
Rob: Mhm, it's interesting that you mentioned Soup Superman, because I was getting that too. Doing our readings today, it almost is a challenge for the writer where it's like, okay, how are we going to exploit this character's weakness? Because he is unstoppable. We almost have to be a little bit more creative in a way, because it can't just be bullets or it can't just be a super punch. It's got to be something a little bit more clever, like that Spider Man issue that you mentioned.
Guido: Yeah, it's also everything you mentioned. It's interesting to me being reminded how many iconic stories he has because he actually doesn't have a ton of appearances. I mean, the last 15 years probably are, uh, the majority of his appearances, actually. So it's so interesting, though, that by virtue of the fact that he has that, uh, recognizable Thor storyline, the really classic Spider Man storyline that he's bound up in Doctor Strange with the Citarak connection, he's really cemented his place in the universe, even though he didn't have that many appearances for a long time.
Rob: Yeah. As we'll hear in one of our later issues, he's often floating in space in another dimension, under a pile of rocks, in cement.
Guido: He's often incapacitated relegating somewhere for a while.
James from Geek To Me Radio: Exactly.
Rob: Then he'll come back and guido, what about you? I know you're obviously a huge, giant X Men fan. What is your background with Juggernaut?
Guido: Yeah, I think just always having read X Men for the 35 plus years that I've read comics, he's always been a part of that for me. And so I've always been very familiar. I've never been a fan of his. I've never disliked him either. But what is interesting is realizing even in what you shared, James, he's been part of really interesting stories. And maybe Rob, it's some of why you were just describing. Like, obviously the Claremont bar fight with Colossus issue is like, uh, a really great, amazing, again, iconic issue, especially for someone who's a big fan of the very human soap opera elements of X Men. So it's fun to realize that I might actually like him more than I knew. I also think his depiction in The Animated Series is great. I think they do such a good job of balancing the sort of dumb, big, beef, meathead kind of guy, but with a lot of humanity, which I think is written in the character and portrayed in that, uh, X Men Animated Series version. He's always been a part of everything I've known, and I've been sort of neutral, but I might be moving toward positive now on him.
Rob: Yeah, I like you. Definitely. It was the Animated Series was one of the main ways that I knew the character. But the other way in comics were the two Deadpool miniseries in the 90s where he's fighting against Deadpool and he's partnered with Black Tom and they really had almost a comedy duo kind of thing. And that classic comedy duo where you get the one who's maybe a little nicer, but is the dumber one, and that's Juggernaut and then the meaner one, but who's smarter, and that's Black Tom and also kind of them fighting. Deadpool also has that element of Boris and Natasha fighting Rocky and Bullwinkle as well, having that smarter hero who they're also battling. So I definitely always thought of him as a character that worked well with other characters, maybe stands alone. He's not the greatest, but if you have a Black Tom and a Wade Wilson to have him bounce off of, then he really stands out. Well, now that we've gone through our backgrounds, I don't know if you guys see this, but there's a little cave over there. Why don't we go explore and see what's in there? Oh, I think it's a glowing oh, it's a glowing point of origin. It's our origins of the story.
James from Geek To Me Radio: Uh, ah. Right now on this very show, you're going to get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago.
Rob: And first up today is X Men Volume One, issue number twelve from Marvel Comics way back from July 1965. And it is called the origin of Professor X.
Guido: It's written by Stan Lee. It is laid out by Jack Kirby, but penciled by Alex Toth. It's inked by Vince Coletta, lettered by Sam Rosen, edited by Stan. And we read it because it is the origin and first appearance of Juggernaut, contrary to that misleading title.
Rob: Yes, exactly. Although he doesn't really appear in full form until our final panel. It's a very long tease.
Guido: So to launch right in on that. I think the structure of this issue is awesome. I think it is such a cool way of doing a flashback, but building suspense and making us interested in it because it switches between the present moment where there's this looming threat and every segment of the story have to set up the traps and deal with this as Xavier is telling the pieces of the flashback. And then it culminates in his arrival, which then continues with the fight next issue. But the structure, I think, is great. Uh, even rereading it again for whatever time this was for me, I found that even more appealing because it's somewhat unique, I think, too.
Rob: Yeah, it almost has a Jaws kind of well, this is pre Jaw ten years before Jaws. But that kind of build up moment where, okay, there's a big monster coming and it's the anticipation of what it's going to be. And we kind of get a little bit of a sense. But yeah. James, what did you think? Uh, uh, is this an issue that you've read before?
James from Geek To Me Radio: Yeah, this one. I was so excited to get this one for my collection finally. I had to sell my entire collection like two years ago. So, uh, I don't have it anymore. But it was one of those ones. When I got it, I was so excited to go through it. And then issue 13, where they actually get into the fighting of, um, juggernaut with the X Men. Uh, but yeah, it was like you mentioned, it was that build up. You see him kind of as a shadow figure. You don't see him actually, what he looks like until that big reveal at the end. But they're setting up grenades to go off around him. They've got acid trying to stop him or anything else. They're trying to beast is frantically making a moat to put up, uh, to try to hold him back, and nothing is working. You just see this grenade going off and through the smoke, here he comes. He's still moving. So it does build that suspense. And it's one of those that you can't go wrong with an early Marvel issue like that with, uh, Stan and Jack working on it. Just even if you're so so on the story, the art is great. It's one of those that just really it is a true classic.
Rob: Mhm. Yeah. And I'm curious, of course, we get this whole backstory and we find out that Kane Marco, who's always been a jerk, and then gets this Ruby, the gem of Citarak, that transforms him into the Juggernaut. I'm curious what both of you think, especially you, James, but why did Stan decide to not make him a mutant? He gives him this kind of complicated little backstory with this gem. I'm curious why they didn't have Cain have these buried mutant powers that then come out. Because especially at this time in the X Men story, it seems maybe like the bit of an anomaly because they've been fighting mangido and the evil mutants and stuff like that.
James from Geek To Me Radio: Yeah, I guess I know early in the story they mentioned, I think that Cain knows that Charles is a mutant. And I think it just adds an extra layer of hate. So it's almost like, what would a bigot do with unlimited power? And I think maybe that was the angle that Stan was going for. Uh, but also, I think, if I'm not mistaken, up to that point, just about every X Men villain we'd been introduced to, the Blob, the Vanisher Eunice, uh, had all been mutants. So maybe it was their crack at saying, okay, let's give them a non mutant, and maybe they just would have felt the magical with the mutant power would have been too confusing. Is his power from his mutancy, or is it power from the mystical gem? So maybe that was it.
Guido: I'm guessing mhm I think you're right, though, James. It sets up what we end up getting for decades, a lifelong story of jealousy. And it's an interesting dynamic because he ends up extraordinarily powerful. But there's still the question of I guess it's unearned when you're born with it, but in this case, it was granted to him. It's at times taken away. It could be taken away. It also later subjects him to the control of the demon Citrac, and so it's not as clean as if he just, upon puberty, became the immovable juggernaut. It's a lot more complicated, which just sets up, uh, the interesting stories I think we've gotten with him.
Rob: Yeah, agreed. And I also think in this episode, just to talk about the other characters, professor X, too. It's interesting seeing how Professor X's powers evolve and that he is able to use his telepathy to be a better athlete and be a better student. And also kind of also setting up this dichotomy with Charles that I think has played out over time, where he's not always the best person either. And even here, yes, he's using these. He knows, okay, I have to stop. This is going to be my last race. It's too easy to beat humans, but at the same time, he's still doing it. He's still using this as a way to one up. And that is almost getting to the core of what we're also saying in terms of Cain's jealousy, where Charles is still using his power to advance, even though he knows that he shouldn't. So it's an interesting character point for Charles. Too.
Guido: Yeah, he always feels superior, I think, even when writers don't lean into his evil, which a lot of writers have leaned into his evil, uh, being either letterous or just being dark, or flat out being irresponsible here, he, at the very minimum, just feels that he's better than other people. So you sort of empathize with Cain, even though Cain is a cartoonish bully and does that thing where he hits him with his own hand, which is like a classic bully move. Um, it's also a little bit like, hey, you know what? Charles is a bit of a jerk, so he kind of deserves to be knocked down a peg, too, which becomes really important in the what if I'd.
Rob: Say I'm taking my helmet off and getting a mental blast? That we should move to our next segment, which is exploring multiversity.
James from Geek To Me Radio: Um, I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question what if?
Rob: And today we are asking the question, what if Professor X had become the Juggernaut? This is from what if? Volume two, no matter what the damn internet says. Issue number 13 from Marvel Comics from May 1990.
Guido: Yes. So, uh, this issue is written by Kurt Busiek, who is a comics legend, though at this point had been writing for Marvel, DC, and Eclipse a bit. It's really after this that he writes the Marvels, that he reboots Avengers, he creates Thunderbolts, he writes Jla. Avengers. He creates Astro City. So really a legend early in his career at this point. It's Penciled by Vince Miel Kerik, uh, Vince Penciled, a handful of what ifs inked a small number of books and died quite young in 1992 at age 28.
Rob: Wow.
Guido: It's inked by Ian Aiken and Brian Garvey colored by Tom Vincent lettered by Gary Fields edited by Craig Anderson And again, this is Earth 905. So James, can you start us off with what happens on Earth 905?
James from Geek To Me Radio: Yes. This one, uh, like every what if. It starts out setting kind of a familiar type thing where, uh, Xavier and Marco are, uh, out, I believe. If I'm not mistaken this time, xavier finds the gem and Marco managed to get away before the whole thing collapses. Before the cave collapses. Just like he did on Cain marco in X Men number twelve, as we discussed. And by the time he escapes and digs his way out, uh, as we find out, kind of driven a little insane by being trapped under there for a little while. He's not the Xavier that we knew, uh, on our Earth. He's uh, a little bit more of an edge to him. And we mentioned I know that the darker side of him kind of comes out because he decides he's got now this power, this strength that he didn't have before. He's going to use it to protect mutant kind. It almost becomes a rival of Magneto, who one of my favorite scenes is Magneto is like, okay, yeah, let's see uh, how tough you are. Tries to just crush Juggernaut within his armor. The magical power won't let that happen. So Magneto can't do anything to him. So that's the last we see of Magneto at that point. Uh, things proceed apace. He begins to recruit his X Men, but he's kind of turning them a little bit, uh, it almost becomes a little bit of a fascist state against humanity. We see humans being rounded up and the X Men are kind of some obviously enjoy the power they're being like. I think one, uh, of Eunice's task force has teamed up with Warren Worthington, of all people, who also is enjoying the elite status that's now afforded to.
Guido: Him and bought an island or something like that.
Rob: Bought Hawaii. Yeah.
Guido: Uh, bought Hawaii.
James from Geek To Me Radio: That's it interesting that Warren quickly throws in with the side of the bad guys. I thought that was kind of telling. But we've got, uh, Xavier uses his power, his mental ability that he also has to find cures for the Fantastic Four and shuts down their cosmic powers. It's like, yeah, you guys are just regular human beings. Now. He threatens to expose Peter Parker's secret identity from his telepathy. And Peter's like, well, I don't want to give my Aunt May a heart attack. I just better quit. He's able to find cures for the Hulk and daredevil to make them normal. If I remember correctly. He traps Antman and the Wasp in the quantum realm so they can't, um they conveniently say, Thor is away on business. NASCAR. And I'm like, well.
Guido: And Namor is underwater and doesn't pay attention.
James from Geek To Me Radio: To death, which was pretty dark, I remember at the time. Like, that's pretty awful. And because the Avengers never formed, captain America is still floating around in ice somewhere, they never revived Captain America. He quickly eliminates all the Silver Age heroes who would have been there at the time to oppose him. And then as he goes through, he starts to get pockets of resistance and, uh, within a couple of the X Men are like, well, what we're doing is kind of wrong. I don't know if we can keep doing this. And Magneto is there and say, hey, you want to stop him? So do I. And kind of brings those renegade mutants into his fold. Lures. Am I going to spoil this? I can't remember if I should go all the way to the end.
Guido: No, spoil it. Yes. Go for it.
James from Geek To Me Radio: 33 years. You're out of luck anyway. Exactly. 33 year old spoilers. So they lure him up to Asteroid M, and they end up getting him there, blowing him out into space. And the final line always sticks with me because he's hurtling outward from the Earth through space. And the line is, nothing can stop the Juggernaut, and nothing ever will. And that's how we end up getting rid of the Professor Xavier version of Juggernaut. But it's one of my favorite issues. It's very satisfying because you see all this stuff that would happen. It's got the interaction with the other Marvel characters I mentioned, and we have a perfectly, uh, driven storyline that ends with a satisfying conclusion. So I think it's both sad, but it's also we're like, yeah, we got rid of them, but also that's the last we're going to see if Charlie behavior mhm.
Guido: Well, what's amazing is the summary you just offered. That's a 28 page story. There's so much in this story. It's the world building in this story, which is not a surprise from Kurt Busyak, but the world building is wild. There's so much in this that it could have been, uh, easily a miniseries. I mean, it's really remarkable.
James from Geek To Me Radio: I'd almost like to see that.
Rob: Yeah, I would love to see that. And we get the Kane Marco as well, who's kind of just we don't see him for most of those 28 pages. And then he kind of reemerges at the end, where he's working for Magneto and helps Magneto trap Charles, but ultimately still becomes basically a slave to Magneto, where Cain is walking off going, should I be calling this person master? And all this time, Cain, of course, wanted to be the dominant one, and he's now still subservient to a mutant, only now, uh, a different mutant.
James from Geek To Me Radio: Yes, I did forget to mention Kane. Sorry about that. He does reappear that's, right?
Rob: No, yeah.
Guido: There'S a lot in it.
Rob: Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know what you both think of this. We covered another juggernaut. What if on this show where Juggernaut ultimately the whole world is destroyed and Juggernaut is the only one left on the planet, and, uh, he accidentally kills Magneto and all of these refugees, and he's left alone to wander the Earth, and here he's also left alone to wander in outer space. And I'm curious, what do you think? I guess this idea of immortality and vulnerability almost opens that question up about what this kind of character what happens to this character after the action is done.
Guido: Yeah, I, uh, think it's one of the ways, as we were talking about earlier, it's one of the ways to deal with invulnerability or immortality and make that character vulnerable. Because we can all try to imagine just how horrific it is. None of us can actually imagine, but try to imagine how horrific infinite isolation would be. And so infinite isolation is quite a threat to an invulnerable, immortal character. I think that's why I think he ends up in those positions quite a bit.
James from Geek To Me Radio: Yeah, you never really think about it, but he survived at the bottom of a quick drying cement building when Spiderman dropped him into he doesn't need air, he doesn't need food, he doesn't need water. I assume he's trapped in the armor. He doesn't need to pee. Uh, but it's one of those weird things we see. It kind of an interview with the vampire, uh, where Louie is just driven mad. Not driven mad, but he's just so forlorn because he knows all of his friends will leave him and die. And we see him cry when, uh, the little girl vampire is killed. And you kind of think of it, it's not a vampire, but that's probably going to be Juggernaut's lot in life, is that all of his friends are going to die because of his magic power. He's never going to age, he's never going to need things that normal people do. So the immortality, the loneliness, I don't feel like that's ever really been played up too much in his character, uh, that I've seen. In the stories that have been done, but it's going to be dealt with eventually. Like you mentioned, that what if one shot mhm mhm.
Rob: Yeah. Speaking of dark and depressing, we get another kind of hellscape post apocalypse because.
Guido: World War Three happened.
Rob: World War III has happened, and so the bomb has dropped. A lot of people were killed from radiation. Other people became mutants. Because of that, we get this fascist state. What is it about the X Men that kind of invites this? I'm thinking Days of Future past, and they always are the characters that are inviting this kind of post apocalyptic not the character, but post world, probably because.
Guido: They represent an evolution in humanity. Right? So what's cool here is the quote unquote apocalypse you're referring to is used to make it that the population of humanity tips toward human. Because of all the atomic bombs, more mutants are born than humans. And so that's what, in part, gives Xavier this control to become the fascist dictator of all of Earth because the population is now majority mutant. So it's an interesting use. And that's why I think it has to do with the fact that mutants are like the next evolution of human beings, and that is inherently a threat to human beings. As a species, though, I'm willing to be a mutant, but not everyone is.
James from Geek To Me Radio: I'd get a power like Meg on Family Guy, where I used to just grow my nails back and forth. That's all I'd be able to do. I'd have some power like that.
Rob: Yes. The poor humans in this timeline only get to eat melon. That's one of the bad things, where I know I love it, old people just eating melon.
Guido: The mutant markets have fresh meat, but she's too scared to go to the mutant market, so she's just eating melon. Again, that is one of those small details. Just that two panel scene of this old couple and what they're eating, where it's like Kurt Busiak really constructed this whole world. He could have done a series bible for this that could have gone on for a long time because it's so fleshed out. It feels like Age of Apocalypse esque to me. But again, it's one issue. Age of Apocalypse is over the course of 40 plus issues.
Rob: Yeah. And we get Scott and Jean still being very Scott and Jean, or Scott especially, because he's the one who's really leading the revolution, who's got this moral crisis coming up. So it's interesting that those characters in a true good what if fashion that we get this central timeline from the Six One Six even here, that there's some inherent personality traits of the characters that just can't be disrupted no matter what timeline that we're in, though they call him Ronan.
Guido: So what's cool is there's something happened. We don't actually have any idea what that led to him becoming a slightly different character than we're used to. He has that slightly different costume. And someone calls him Ronan, uh, inexplicably. And I loved those little details like that, or the fact that havoc's uniform is, uh, sleeveless. I'm like, I don't know why these differences exist, but it's cool to see these little differences.
James from Geek To Me Radio: You almost wonder. It's like when they were designing the costumes, they're like, everyone has to be different. He finally gets a havoc. And it's like, for crap's sake, let's just give him no sleeves. Let's just do that. Because Cyclops has those weird shades of his helmet. He's got, like, those, uh, galactic esque spikes coming out, and it's always interesting. But then poor Havoc just short sleeves.
Guido: And then gene is the most different. Gene is completely different. You wouldn't even know it's her, really.
Rob: And we get a great joke from Kane where gene says something, and he says, score one for the babe in the medieval swimsuit.
Guido: Oh, I think it's scarlet witch. I thought they oh, is that Scarlett witch?
Rob: I don't know. They're both wearing jeans. Got a very scarlet witchesque outfit, only in her colors.
James from Geek To Me Radio: Yeah.
Rob: And I didn't even know it was Hank. Did Hank ever look like this gito? Because Hank is not blue, and he's got this metal armor on.
Guido: No, it reads as puck's outfit. For some reason.
Rob: He does. He looks just like puck, but they call him Hank.
Guido: He's not blue furred at the start of the X men. Right. So if we assume this is a different timeline, then why would we assume that he would become blue furred? So it makes sense that he's human. But yeah, the outfit looks very much like alpha flights. Puck m bdsmware for the course.
Rob: That's true. That's true.
Guido: Um, yeah, I mean, there's so many details we could talk about. I don't know if there's any other key things that need to be said, though. I think it's great. I really think it's great. I had not read this in 30 whatever years, so I was glad to read it and see so much in here that I thought was interesting. Well, I guess we'll talk about Xavier more in a minute when we get to another issue. But anything else in this world?
Rob: No. I guess the question we always ask is, james, would you want to go back to this world? Would you want to see more stories in this universe?
James from Geek To Me Radio: Yeah, I especially like the fact that it was summarily dealt with, uh, on just one page, what he did with all the heroes. I would like to almost see those battles, though. Obviously, they're not just going to stand there and let Xavier spray them with his cure. So I'd kind of like to see how that battle goes. Daredevil can probably, with his radar set, see that this guy's coming out enough to no good. Uh, I'm sure hulk would understand. If he'd throw some punches, there'd be something going on. And who doesn't like a juggernaut versus hulk battle, right? But I'd like to see, uh, some of those throw downs and because he did such a masculine job, uh, Kurt in world building, like Edo said, I'd like to see, uh, a miniseries. I'd like to see like a six part issue where we delve more into the world itself and kind of keep the same storyline if you want, but flesh it out over six issues so we see more interactions with the different mutant factions, how Cain is able to meet Magneto in the first place. And what happened with did that relationship go back and forth? Or was it always just a quick, hey, you're working for me, sit down, shut up, here's what's happening kind of a thing. I would love to see more of it. So I don't know if Kurt could ever be convinced to do something like that, if that was kind of in the back of his mind, or if Marvel would actually go through and say, hey, let's revisit this issue and have someone do a more in depth, uh, analysis of it.
Guido: Yeah, your lips to CB sibulski's ears, because I love it. I mean, you mentioned the mutant factions. And for people who haven't read this issue, because sadly, volume two is pretty inaccessible online, they haven't digitized all of the issues of volume two. But there's the buzzboys, right? So Kurt created this entire team of these criminal mutants, the Buzzboys, and there's a character named Bubbles and all these characters in this Buzz Boys gang. And it's like, that's a whole story in and of itself. It's just who these people are and why they exist and why they're harassing the humans.
Rob: They're very warriors, very dreadnought in GI. Joe. Got all that. Very 80s. Yeah, exactly.
Guido: And then the ending, I mean, I want to see more because the ending, it ends almost on a cliffhanger or set up for a sequel, because it ends with Magneto threatening the new now X Men who are Cyclops, Jean, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver. And he's like, okay, I'm going to let you go this time because we work together, but I'm coming for Earth. So their story right there.
James from Geek To Me Radio: Yeah.
Rob: Mhm, you know, the story I want to see is where's Apocalypse in all of this? Because he doesn't seem like he would be letting Charles Juggernaut just take over humanity without his say so. What is the story involving Juggernaut and Apocalypse? And that would be such a cool battle, too, to see. I don't know if maybe it's happened at some point in X Men history, but these two, uh, unstoppable forces battling.
Guido: Out, or maybe they even cut a deal or something.
Rob: Exactly.
James from Geek To Me Radio: Or is there a hellfire club on this earth? Like, is it necessary for them to have a Hellfire Club? And what would that look like on this particular Earth?
Guido: Yeah, well, that's the thing with mutants being dominant. It tips the whole scales. Everything can get transformed slightly even apocalypse's role could be very different, especially once the World War Three happens and you end up with a majority mutant population. Uh, everything is different at that point. The whole dynamic of the team, well.
Rob: We'Ve been hurtling through the galaxy with nothing stopping us. But I do see something ahead and we're going to collide straight into pondering possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted? Well, speaking of Charles or Charles just speaking just now, Keto, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?
Guido: So there are a good number of options to choose from, of course, for looking ahead to Juggernaut post 1990 and what happens with him. But I wanted to look at Xavier and Cain's relationship a bit. Cain goes off into lots of stories that don't relate. There's Xavier being evil stories, which are pretty common in the last 30 years. But I wanted to stay on Juggernaut, and the last thing I'll say I considered was that I think there's a huge link between Earth 905 and the Kircoa era. So the fact that we have Magneto at the beginning as sort of a dictator and then Xavier, Juggernaut, they both sort of say like, that's it, mutants are untouchable. We are sovereign. Leave us alone now and we're going to rule how we want to felt very cricoan to me, but that would be too big to cover. So I stayed with our characters and the choices that they make in relation to one another and found this really great gem of an issue mhm, and.
Rob: It is X Men Legacy Volume One, which is continued numbering from adjective list. X Men is issue 219 from Marvel Comics from February 2009. And this issue is entitled Jagannatha, and.
Guido: It is written by Mike Carrey on his fantastic run of X Men. Penciled by Phil Briones, inked by Cam Smith, colored by Brian Reeber, lettered by Corey Pettitt, edited by Nick Lowe. So in this issue, Xavier and Juggernaut are in a bar and they're debating Juggernaut's redemption and what path he's on. And he ends up seeing that Citrak gave him the ability to plow through any problem and not get sidetracked. And that's what he is. And so he's going to lean into that. And Xavier and his father always got in his way and they were obstructions on his path. So he's willing to kill and be a villain again because he thinks that Citarak really gave him this opportunity and he needs to take it. But it turns out in a really interesting twist, that this whole conversation is taking place in the mental mindscape. Xavier is actually planted this in his mind. And while he's sleeping, Xavier finds his way in and is basically threatening him. And in the end, Xavier says, like, no, stay out of my path. I don't want you to be on my path again. So we have Xavier in his typical, very threatening, manipulative fashion. And someone did assign an alternate Earth to the mindscape part, actually 9219, just so everyone knows. But it's a mindscape, so I don't really count it as an alternate universe. So, yeah, we chose it because it's just an interesting, uh, thing about decisions that they're making as characters. They recount the origin back in the jungle and touching the Ruby. And at this point, Cain sees it as good, like it was meant to be, and that Xavier has always been jealous of Hem, and he sort of reframes it a little bit and that he wasn't deserting because he wasn't running into the cave and deserting the military, that he was scared and angry. And so it's a cool reframe.
Rob: Yeah. And we get a lot of those moments. Looking back at some of the other moments that we've mentioned, like the one you mentioned, James, we see actually Juggernaut being stuck in the cement by Spiderman and all these M times when he's been floating in other universes that we referenced and things like that, where he has been lost in his thoughts and trying to think, well, what is my destiny? And there's almost a tie back there, I think, to Charles in our alternate Earth, being trapped under that rubble and having all this time to kind of think, oh, what do I want to do? And having your mind corrupted in that way. And of course, Kane, we know, was a jerk even before he touched the Ruby. But did all these other times, even being buried in the cave in Korea, did that actually help form him into this more monstrous person?
Guido: And see, I read this issue as giving I felt empathy, especially at the end, throughout the issue, you're sort of not feeling empathetic with Cain because he's threatening the other bar patrons, who none of which ends.
Rob: He basically kills the one guy because he just throws him against, um a, um beam.
Guido: Yeah. And then he imagines a world where he kills Xavier and he then actually starts killing the X Men. So he sort of is living out this fantasy. But I think that Xavier is such a jerk at the end. Such a jerk. It's unreal to me. It actually helped me reassess the alternate Earth that we read because it felt like I'm not so sure Xavier went crazy because he was trapped under rubble. I think that thing we saw in X Men Twelve where Xavier always felt superior to everyone. And that thing that's happening here in X Men Legacy 219 where he's willing to manipulate and willing to trick people, essentially to say, like, you need to be the way I want you to be and, uh do not disrupt what I'm trying to do. I think those qualities are what made the Xavier on Earth 905 able to be a fascist dictator with a little extra power. Like, he's never had the physical power that he had on Earth 905. So give him the physical power. And I think that's what you're going to get. I don't think it actually was that his mind broke.
Rob: HM.
Guido: So that's what this issue helped me establish.
Rob: Yeah, it goes back to that question. The same thing with Cain. What's inherent in you? And what then is brought out by these external forces? And we'll never really know. But it's interesting. Maybe those two half brothers are not as different as they like to think they are.
Guido: Yeah, I think that's true. James, have you seen that as a fan of Juggernaut? I don't know. Where do you fall on, uh, how much of a villain is Juggernaut? How much of an anti hero, or how much of an actual hero? Where do you fall on that?
James from Geek To Me Radio: Just like with anything else, when it's like, if this person could beat this person to fight, who's writing the story? Um, I think with like the one you're referencing, which we talked about before the show started. I read it when it came out, but not since then. And I couldn't find the book to reread. But, um, this obviously plays him as no, he's a villain. We've seen him be a hero in that weird Malibu universe where it was like in the early 90s when Juggernaut was leading a team of all new exiles. He's like, oh, so he's the leader of a bunch of good guys. So I think we've seen that. Which is kind of another reason I keep coming back to the character. Because whose moral compass hasn't wavered from time to time. You wake up someday and you feel like, you know what? I'm tired of being walked all over. Uh, this is where I get mine today. And other times you wake up and you want to be that good person. Um, it's interesting that whoever writes this character, we just great story with, ah, Fabian Nisieza wrote a, uh, five issue series a while ago where he ends up he is a good guy. He's helping this brand new mutant out, uh, to keep her safe. And he is, like you said, an anti hero in this because he's not your typical good guy where people are going to give him his latitude to do what he wants. Um, and I think we'd mentioned earlier, with his invulnerable powers and his super strength, it's hard for someone like that to be a hero, especially when they come from a criminal background. And Marvel's done a great job of reforming heroes, obviously. Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye were all bad guys when they came on the scene. Same, um, with Black Widow. But Marvel has that ability, I think almost more than DC, to take a villain and find the likable qualities, make them more every man, and kind of bring out their humanity and bring them a little bit out of the shadow into more of the light, for lack, uh, of a better term. So I do like the fact that this story explores those areas and kind of retouches on the origin in a more modern setting. But I think it's just one of those things where the proper writer, if the character is written well, they can write the villain as a hero and vice versa. And I'm okay with it as long as you're telling me a great story.
Rob: Mhm, it's interesting you mentioned those other characters, because the one I'm thinking, just hearing what you're saying, james is Venom and Eddie Brock, where you have Eddie as this kind of jerk character, he gets inhabited by this other force, like the Citarak. In this case, the symbiote transforms him, makes him maybe more evil, but he was always evil. And then eventually we get this character kind of becoming more of an antihero over time. So there's lots of similarities between those two characters.
James from Geek To Me Radio: Yeah, definitely.
Guido: Yeah, I think that's true. And James, as the Juggernaut fan here, do you want to see another on screen depiction of Juggernaut?
James from Geek To Me Radio: Yeah.
Guido: Do you like any of the on screen depictions of Juggernaut that have existed so far?
James from Geek To Me Radio: Like you said, the animated version, it's always hard to top animation because you can do so much in animation you can't do in live action with actors. I, um, was very disappointed because I love Vinny Jones, but there were so many times throughout that movie, I'm like, Why doesn't Xavier recognize him? They're step brothers. Why is he only crashing through? Why isn't he doing other it was very disappointing, the version we got in X Men Three, one of the several disappointing things about that movie. But I did enjoy what we got from him in Deadpool Two, because that's me. I was like, Why don't you just CGI the character? He's supposed to be the size of the Hulk. And I think Deadpool Two did a great job with Juggernaut because he was taking care of, uh, the other mutant, the smaller one. We've seen him do that several times throughout his history, so I did enjoy that. And then to see him go toe to toe with Colossus, I'm like, all right, someone's got to drop a bar on one of the others with that bar, fighting that little Hallmark back to X Three. But, yeah, I, uh, thought that was the best depiction we've had so far in live action.
Guido: And mhm mhm, are you looking forward to an even better one one day in the MCU?
James from Geek To Me Radio: Hopefully. I'm a comic book hero, so I'll nitpick little things like his armor should be brown, dark brown. I don't like this gun metal.
Rob: Totally.
Guido: Exactly.
James from Geek To Me Radio: I kind of wanted that.
Guido: I don't know why they keep making it gray. I agree.
James from Geek To Me Radio: I'm not sure if it's a color palette thing with the CGI. The brown doesn't show up. I don't know. They can do it with werewolves, so I don't see why they can't do it with Juggernaut's armor. But I'd like to see them more and maybe when we get the X Men, now that they're being folded into the MCU, maybe we'll get a proper, uh, Juggernaut. When all is said and done, who knows? But yeah, I'm a big fan of the character. Um, and that was probably my favorite live action depiction. And especially with Fabian miniseries I just mentioned, I wanted that to be an ongoing series. So I think it could work, if you get the right writer attached to it, to do an ongoing Juggernaut series, uh, from Marvel. So, again, if Sibolski is listening, maybe that happens.
Guido: Yeah, I loved how that miniseries also dealt with him not being a mutant and the Crecoa era and what his role in that could be. And I love all the stories that are dealing with those questions. Like for Deadpool Two, who's not a mutant. Uh, but yeah, I hope for a good comic book, faithful Juggernaut. Also, I think he gives the good family drama, which I think the X Men should have a lot of family drama in it. Because actually, I'm not sure, with the exception of the way some of the Avengers arguments could feel like family drama, we haven't actually had real family drama in the MCU amongst a group of heroes or villains. And so I think the X Men has to bring that feeling. And I think mhm, you could do that with Juggernaut because of the relationship to Xavier.
Rob: And I think it was in Deadpool Two, they had a Black Tom in name only, really. I think he was in like one scene, right. And then written out. But I'd love to see that with Black Tom because he's Juggernaut's Chosen Family. And also that kind of he's the devil on the shoulder telling him to do the bad things. And Charles is maybe the angel on the other side. So I'd love to see Charles an angel. I'd love to see that dynamic, too. Yeah, exactly. Fallen angel.
James from Geek To Me Radio: Yeah.
Guido: Devil, um, in disguise, I'd say.
Rob: Well, the angel we had in our alternate universe bought Hawaii and is tormenting humans. The angels aren't all they're cracked up to beat.
James from Geek To Me Radio: Very true, I'd say. Also, as far as the Juggernaut, another one, if you haven't seen Pride of the X Men, it's a really good comic accurate depiction of Juggernaut in animation style, too, because he admits that he's Juggernaut's, uh, step brothers. Like, this is my step brother, Kane Marco, the unstoppable Juggernaut. And we kind of see a little homage to X Men Number Twelve, where all of the X Mansion blasters are shooting at him and electric fences going off, and Juggernaut is just crushing right through it all. So I like that little homage to X Men Twelve there. And also another appearance of Juggernaut. That kind of is one of my favorite because I started reading Excalibur when it came out. And it's that, uh, I think the second or third issue where Captain Britain's lying on his back. Juggernaut just walked over him on the COVID They've got that bit of a fight when he breaks out of, uh, CrossMORE Prison in England. That's where the X Men put him after this battle with Dazzler and Cylock and Rogan Longshot, and Captain Britain's punching punching sends Captain Britain fly, and then Phoenix just drops down and says, hi, I'm Phoenix, how are you? And zaps him with her mind blast. And the fight is over in like, two pages. But it's a great little so if you're a Juggernaut fan like me, those are another two little, uh, tidbits. I'd say go out and look for those if you can find them.
Guido: Great recommendations. Thank you. And thank you so much for bringing this issue to us on this journey and bringing your love of Juggernaut to us and spending time with us. Can you tell listeners where to find you, support you, and listen to Geek to Me Radio?
James from Geek To Me Radio: Yeah, uh, the website is the main portal for me, so just go to Geektmeradio.com. It's got links to all the socials there. Uh, my goal is to try to get I'm trying to focus on a special social media thing at a time. So right now, my focus is on YouTube. So I'm trying to get to 1000 subscribers on YouTube by the end of April. So if anyone's listening, head over to YouTube, find Geek to Me Radio, and hit the subscribe button there. But we're on Twitter and Instagram at Geekmeradio Facebook.com. Geekmeradio. We do broadcast live every Sunday at 10:00 Eastern, 07:00 P.m. Pacific. So if you want to tune in, uh, we just had my 350th episode drop with actor Julian Glover last Sunday. Uh, so we've got a bunch of other guests coming up. We've got some really big ones I'm excited about, but I haven't locked in a date, so I'm hesitant to say that I've got them permanently locked in. But, uh, some cool stuff coming, and thank you both for having me on. Like I said, this is exciting to be part of your show because you guys do such a great job covering some very cool topics. So I'm just pleased to be on your show. Thanks so much for having me.
Guido: Thank you. Thank you. You'll have to come back with another issue that you remember loving.
James from Geek To Me Radio: I'd love it. Love to.
Guido: And thank you. Dear Watchers for listening. Our, uh, reading list is in the show notes. You can follow us online at Dear Watchers on social media@dearwatchers.com and leave a.
Rob: Review wherever you listen to podcast. We'll be back soon with another trip to the multiverse.
Guido: In the meantime, in the words of Huatu, keep pondering the possibilities.