Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

>> Rob: Were you shuffling along through different podcasts? Well, this podcast is the real deal. It won't be damn bit. It's. Yes, it's a sure bet. Welcome to Dear Watchers in omniversal comic book podcast, where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

>> Guido: We're traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up an omniverse, of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey are me, Kito, and me, Rob.

>> Rob: Yeah, I don't have a name either.

>> Guido: Mister Rob. You can be.

>> Rob: I had something last night, and now I forget what it was. So it couldn't have been that.

>> Guido: You can be Mister Rob.

>> Rob: Okay, and before we begin our trip through, guess what? More X Men. You know what's new in our section of the multiverse?

>> Guido: We are not an X Men podcast, although resisting the urge is getting increasingly hard. But there are a lot of X Men alternate universes and multiverses for us to cover. We had taken it slow our first two years, and now we're really leaning into it, thanks to the tv show. We had Pinky and the brain in our last episode, so we got even out of comics a little, and our next episode is gonna even include a movie universe. So we're not just an ex podcast.

>> Rob: No, but speaking of X Men, I know you really.

>> Guido: The other thing that's new is, so I. People who know that I have a lot of comics will be surprised here. I spent the most money on comics ever this weekend.

>> Rob: Undisclosed amount.

>> Guido: Undisclosed amount that has me closing in on my X Men goal, thanks to Joe's comics cards and coins in Valaysia, New York. Who?

>> Rob: And our tax refund.

>> Guido: He has been a really great resource and always knows to look out for those early ex issues. And with the 15 or so issues I got from him this weekend, I'm down to, I think, two dozen missing issues. And that's every X title ever.

>> Rob: And you got your earliest issue that you have in your collection, right?

>> Guido: Yeah, I had six. Now I have five. So I'm, of course, missing one through four. but they are part of the two dozen that I'm closing in on for every x issue ever. So, yeah, if you're in upstate New York, or you could. If you need someone even remotely looking out to get your back, Joe's comics cards and coins in Valacia, New York, has been really a great supplier of my drug of choice. So that was an exciting x update. It did not inspire, though, this episode. I had already planned out this episode that's true. It was just a happy coincidence.

>> Rob: Well, it was all swirling in the back of your mind because of the tv show, too, so it's the perfect.

>> Guido: Yes.

>> Rob: And I need to.

>> Guido: I need to finish my quest, because it's just gonna become harder and harder and harder.

>> Rob: Yeah. Deadpool and Wolverine, the eventual movie as the tv show.

>> Guido: And, like, if someone debuts in Deadpool and Wolverine, I mean, luckily, I have things like Dazzler. So even though that's going up in price because everyone thinks Taylor Swift will be in it as Dazzler, like, I have that. But I don't know if there's some random early character. I don't know who's in it. Obviously, issue four, Scarlet Witch Quicksilver, is already so high, but there might be other ones. So luckily, some of the keys I got in this lot were Banshee and Polaris. So I'm clear there. If Polaris debuts in Deadpool and Wolverine, I'm safe. I already have it.

>> Rob: And the Phoenix for whenever the Phoenix saga comes back, that was another one that you got. Inevitably, it comes back again. well, listeners can continue to tune in to see you get closer and closer to the end of your quest, in which I suggest that you just set them all on fire and start over again.

>> Guido: That was the conversation yesterday. here's an expedition number one.

>> Rob: Here's the gasoline.

>> Guido: That YouTube video would get a lot of views.

>> Rob: Oh, it would. If you want to promote the podcast, that's the number one way to do it. A lot of people would hate you, though, so. Well, if you're joining us for the first time, Guido has a very big comic book collection, but also, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today. Origins of the story, exploring multiversity, and pondering possibilities. So thank you for coming along.

>> Guido: Yes. And remember to leave us a five star review wherever you're listening. And follow us on, threads, on Instagram, on Facebook, on bluesky earwatchers.

>> Rob: And with that, dear watchers, welcome to episode 132. And let's check out what's happening in the omniverse with our travels to today's alternate universe. Today we serve up a spicy bowl of Mama Labo's gumbo. Note I'm not doing the accent to answer the.

>> Guido: I don't even know if that worked. Does nobody have a mother? I don't know.

>> Rob: I don't know. But he mentioned Gumbo or Jambalaya in one of these issues, so that's, got me thinking.

>> Guido: Well, he might not have had a mother if the original plan for him that we're gonna talk about was the.

>> Rob: We'll get into that, but we're answering that question. What if Rogue and Gambit revealed the greatest secrets of the Marvel universe to.

>> Guido: Mister Sinister, from Mister Sinister to he's dead when they reveal them. So I don't know that's true, but.

>> Rob: They'Re also revealing them to him. It's also a kind of a false what if question to begin with. It's really an excuse to talk about these three characters, basically.

>> Guido: No, I, love the issue, and the question spoils the end of it. And so we didn't want to do that up front. We will spoil the issue when we get to it. But the issue is also over 30 years old, or 30 years old, so we're good. The issue that we're talking about, though, is Earth 979. It is seen once here. This is the only appearance of Earth 979. We have, however, previously talked about Mister Sinister back in episode 47, because he formed the X Men in a what if. We have also talked about Rogue in episodes 31 and 34, and we've talked about X men now in countless EPs, particularly recent ones, but we have never really dived into Gambit, so we're gonna stay focused on him. He is kind of the, thrust of this story, if you will.

>> Rob: Yes. So what was your background with these three characters, Rogue sinister, and especially since we haven't really talked about him, Gambit?

>> Guido: Well, they are three of my favorite characters in my favorite property of all time, so I love them. I mean, Gambit and Rogue are my essential two characters. I bought any comic book in the world that I could get with any of the three of them, but especially Gambit and Rogue. And there were a good number in the nineties. The two were really popular, so they both had spin off solo titles in miniseries, and Gambit especially would sometimes show up in other people's titles. And I consumed everything I could of these three. And the story we're going to dive into is probably actually, or the origin story that we dive into is probably part of the reason that I actually love the three of them, the way that they're all bound up together and the way that this story unfolds. So I'm a big fan, and I've been looking forward to this issue for a long time. What about you and your background with these three?

>> Rob: Well, Rogue always loved, especially from the animated series and for Lenore Zayn's Vogue voice, which you can hear again now in the new series and the writing for her with all her great catchphrases. Sinister, I love the design, but I never felt like he had much of a personality then. Like, he has much more of a personality now, but he was just kind of like, scary guy and Gillan.

>> Guido: Era of X Men. My gosh, no. But the early would be your favorite villain.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: Ever. If you read, like, like the 20 years ago X men, that established his personality as the ultimate sass.

>> Rob: Yes. Yeah. But I knew him mostly from the animated series, where he was just kind of a big, dark, foreboding figure. And if I had to choose that, I would choose apocalypse over him for, like, big omnipotent. yeah.

>> Guido: Ah, he was much m more villain.

>> Rob: Character, but then gambit, I liked Gambit a lot, but he was never one of my favorite characters. Favorites. I don't know why. I mean, maybe I like, gravitated more to Wolverine for, like, the more darker, rough hewn characters. And I think Gambit always, I don't know, in some of the comics I read, he never seemed to be a super pronounced character. I remember reading his mini series, that original miniseries, I guess, when it came out, when I was growing up with.

>> Guido: The golden boss cover.

>> Rob: Yeah, of course. I can picture the COVID right in my head. And he also feels very nineties to me, like, he feels like Sega as, like, a character.

>> Guido: I think that's why I love him. I love his design. I mean, he's super attractive, and he's meant to be super attractive, but his design is even fun because it makes no sense and looks great. I loved that. I loved the action figure, so I loved, I never had that third plastic jacket. He came with a plastic brown trench coat. I loved that thing so much. And my best friend reading comics growing up was also a huge gambit fan. And so I think we just sort of amplified each other's love of Gambit. Rogue is my top character, but also because of Rogue's love of Gambit, I think I also love Gambit.

>> Rob: Well, we talked a bit about our origins, but let's go back to the bayou with our origins of the story. Right now on this very show, you're gonna get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago, so there's a lot going on. There's, like always with X Men, there's lots of characters, lots of subplots. So, Guido, can you explain this mess before we introduce the books we read?

>> Guido: Well, we'll start with a segment for origins of the story with the debut of Sinister and Gambit, because we haven't gone through those. Even though we talked about Sinister, we oddly didn't cover his debut, and we have never touched on gambits. And then we'll get into a really convoluted story. I'll give a more. Bit more background when we get to that segment. But it is one of the classic. There are many classic dangling threads of X Men that is revisited for years and years and years, and clearly retconned, and clearly one writer had an idea, and it just never came to fruition. And so someone else picks it up and does something else with it, and it just becomes this dangling plot thread for truly, practically a decade. And that is great xen, comic storytelling. So we'll get all into Gambit's secret and the dark secret of Gambit, and the trial of Gambit plot in our second part of origins of the story. But let's start with these two characters.

>> Rob: Yeah, we read uncanny, X Men 221. That's the first sinister from September 1987.

>> Guido: And, of course, sinisters created by Chris Claremont and Mark Silvestri in this issue.

>> Rob: And then uncanny X Men 266. That's the first gambit from August 1990.

>> Guido: And it is the first gambit. I don't care that an annual came out a month before this. It is story order, the first Gambit appearance. Most people agree with me, but there are some contrarians out there who insists that it's not. This is the first gambit created by Chris Claremont and Mike Collins on this issue. So this was probably your first time reading M either of these?

>> Rob: Yes. Yeah. So, I mean, kind of going back to what I was saying for Sinister first, because there's a little less to talk about for him, because he's. He's not. He's only in a little bit of the issue, but he definitely gives you those kind of, like, darth Vader, Vader vibes. Like, he's just big and intimidating, and, like, Vader, he chokes somebody. But you don't get too much of the personality there, other than, like, he's evil, he's badass. A lot of it is the design, which Mark Silvestri's design, or whatever, Claremont contributed to it as well, is just so.

>> Guido: It's so good. They know it's so good. Like, the first panel of the issue is just his face, and that is so, unusual to debut a character that way, but with the fanged teeth and the black diamond on his head and the white skin and the red eyes, like, and then once you get to his body and you've got the shredded cape, and he's just great.

>> Rob: I'm just thinking of this now. There's something cenobite like about him, and the cenobites are the hell priests from hellraiser, pinhead and all those. But the black leather, the white skin, the bondage element, which Claremont has in a lot of his work, too. Yeah.

>> Guido: Could be a bit. It's 87. I don't know. When is the first tallraiser movie?

>> Rob: before that? I don't know. Off the top of my head, but it must be before that. But I wonder, maybe Claremont was reading Clive Barker and getting a little bit of that inspiration there and the britishness. Right, because he's supposed to be british, right. Originally, Nathaniel Essex. He doesn't have a british accent on the animated show.

>> Guido: Well, it's not clear, too, because, yes, he lived there 120 years ago, but.

>> Rob: I guess your accents could change over that time.

>> Guido: So I don't know that he's supposed to sound british when he speaks. I'm sure he speaks with some sort of affect, though, of course, because he's, Especially, again, in the last 20 years, he's quite the dandy, and that's what makes him so fun. Yeah. It's a fun issue to revisit with X Men 97 in mind, too, because there's just so much in it, from the composition of the team with Dazzler to the fact that you have the marauders and, you have sort of this. I don't know, the typical soap opera mixed with the world is falling apart. That makes x Men so fun.

>> Rob: Totally. And what about, gambit there? What do you think about this issue? Because it's really set up to, like, this is an introduction. It's not like, oh, there's a character. He's over to the side. This is like someone crashing through, like, the skylight window. Introductory issue. Kind of.

>> Guido: Well, he's on the COVID too, which is, you can see from the sinister, for example, he's not on the COVID So it wasn't that common that a character would debut on the COVID Clearly, Gambit was meant to be a major new character, and I think that what's true for both of these issues we were talking a little bit about while you were reading them, they're both part of the, truly representative of Claremont's era of X Men, where, like, you can't read this issue alone and get that much out of it. You need to either have someone explain to you what's happening before, and it doesn't really end. You need to keep reading, or you need enough context from being, like, a fan or, watching the animated series that you can sort of step in because both of these stories, there's so much going on. So in Gambit's, Storm has been de aged, and you have her split off from the X Men at this point. You have the hounds, which is, of course, the whole plot that brings in Rachel summers and introduces that future timeline. So you have so much happening in this issue that they just assume, you know, well, even the shadow king, there's.

>> Rob: So much history there with all this.

>> Guido: Alluding to the Shadow king. And he's at that point, possessed the guy. Ah, yeah. And Psylocke is in it. And so, yeah, it's fun. it's fun. I love Gambit's design. The only thing that's really changed for him is, of course, the look of his powers. So here in this first issue, it's these green bolts that he charges up with and that, of course, transitions to the, like, pink purple that we're more used to.

>> Rob: And he doesn't have the trait, the playing cards. It's like darts that he's throwing. so he never has the cards. M. Yeah, it's something else that he throws.

>> Guido: He ran out of cards that day. I don't know.

>> Rob: Exactly. And there's. I was asking you, too, if this has ever come up. He has not just the kinetic powers and the ninja, kind of powers, but he also has charm powers here. So he can actually, like, convince people to do what he wants through his Charm. And that's alluded to.

>> Guido: Yeah, it doesn't totally get ignored, but it is definitely not a prominent part of the character.

>> Rob: But what's interesting is, I think, is this charActer, aside from those things that we mentioned, he's so fully formed here from the character that we now still know. Like, there's that debate going on now with, like, who was the creator of Wolverine? And if you read Wolverine's first appearance, it's like, that's not really the WolVerine we know, and that's true of so many comic book characters. But maybe because 1990 DOesn't feel that FaR away, there's so much of the way he speaks and the design, the look, that is still the gambit that we know now.

>> Guido: Yeah, I think that is true something. And maybe because it worked, it never needed to be changed. There's certainly characters who've debuted, fully developed and formed, and they just didn't work. And so they suddenly get, like, retooled. Or they get thrown into the background for years until someone else picks them up. But this character worked right away, and it becomes a main character from then on, really. There's few times that he's missing from books for extended arcs from his debut in 1990 onward.

>> Rob: And he does. And he does flirt with pre teen storm once, so that's. We'll have to overlook that as, flirting.

>> Guido: I feel like he's just supposed to be, like, a constant, like, charm, he.

>> Rob: Says, though, if you were a little older, I would be. It's a little scuzzy line, but anyway.

>> Guido: Well, let me just stay in there one more quick, since this is all in the world of X Men 97 that we're having these conversations, what is so cool? And yet again, in this issue, there's so much with the X Men series, and in this case, we have no one. It's not confirmed that Val Cooper is mystique in X Men 97. Yes, but most of us fans think she is, and in this, she is. She's living as Val Cooper, and there's a whole plot being set up in the final few pages with her and Destiny and Val Cooper. So it's fun to see all these pieces from this era. they're pulling from so many eras in X Men 97. The creators are such fans, and it's obvious, but it's fun to see in these two issues. Strands.

>> Rob: Oh, yeah. Well, Storm, losing her powers in the first issue, in the sinister issue, then kind of almost her story of being, like, separate as this little kid is so much reminiscent of Storm's story now in the series. So. Yeah.

>> Guido: Yeah, that's right. In the sinister issue, it's actually sort of around the life death era. So she's met the adversary who's sort of trying to turn her against forge at that point. So. That's right. And I forgot that that happened in.

>> Rob: This issue because there's so much happening. And now we're going to introduce even more books.

>> Guido: All right. Whoa. This is an intense one. So. All right.

>> Rob: Okay. We have our run of nineties X Men with X Men six in 1992.

>> Guido: All right, so we read this. This is the eponymous now adjectiveless X Men. The mega boom explosion created that, just dominated the comic book industry. Issue six, Jim Lee. This is the first mention of a secret, so we now know there's something with Gambit that we weren't aware of before. Now, it's important to remember that they're using Claremont's plotting still for a lot of this run, for the early parts of the run, but they're definitely deviating from it. He's now left in a. In a very negative departure. So anyway, Sabretooth in X Men six mentions, Gambit's got a secret. This is the first mention of that.

>> Rob: Gambit's got a secret. It sounds like a nineties, like R and b song or something like that.

>> Guido: Well, Sabretooth Duffett in this issue, he could have been singing it and he was, like, in a suit. I love that he's supposed to be, like, cleaned up at this point. Yeah.

>> Rob: Then we have uncanny X Men 325 and 326 in 1995.

>> Guido: All right, so here we are a few years later. This is now post Legion quest, which we have talked about on this show because it kicks off age of Apocalypse. And so when they return from the age of Apocalypse, everything that happened right before is. Has effects, has an effect. And in this case, Rogue and Gambit kiss right before the McRon crystal crystallizes Earth 616. So now we know that Rogue has a sense of a secret, but she can't quite make sense of the memories. So here we are three years later, like, starting to move through this idea. Gambit's got a secret. Now Rogue knows it's dark. It shouldn't be shared. There's something going on. They might even maybe say that it's betrayal, but we don't yet know what's going on here.

>> Rob: Well, the intrigue continues with X Men 45. That's the most rogue and Gambit issue that we will probably focus on today. That's from October 1995. Yeah.

>> Guido: So this is a key issue in this arc. It includes Mister sinister. And so this is from Fabian Nicieza and Andy Kubert.

>> Rob: And finally, uncanny X Men 350. The secret is revealed in the trial of Gambit. That's from December 1997.

>> Guido: All right, so this is Steve Siegel writing. It's coming right off, though Lubdell's long time arc, so possibly using the plots of that, it's got Joe Manurea on art. This is actually the end of his very iconic run of X Men. He's with Andy Smith. Inks are by Tim Townsend, Vince Russell and Dan Panosian, colors by Steve Bucculetto, letters by Richard Starking's comic craft and edited by Bob Harris. So here we are. I don't know where to start, but, you are the outsider in this, I guess. First, was it fun to revisit these different eras of nineties X men? You got some Jim Lee in there. You've got pieces of Claremont. Lob Dell was, of course, like the nineties X Men writer for a while. You got Fabian, you got Joe Madart, which you were not a fan of. So how was it visiting all of these pieces?

>> Rob: I think it's a mixed bag, frankly, for me. maybe because I didn't grow up reading them as much, but I don't know, when I read the Claremont that we had read earlier, jumped out at me much more like, these are also very super verbal, and there's so much going on. It was a little hard to follow in some parts, even as we kind of get up to the kind of climactic trial of Gambit issue, but I don't know. Yeah.

>> Guido: What about zooming in on X Men 45? So this is the rogue and Gambit issue. Rogue is on the run, but Gambit goes to confront her about, like, them moving past this. How did that hit you? Because that's a iconic issue in their relationship.

>> Rob: Yeah, it's. I. I'd like to kind of their back and forth, but I think because I couldn't quite tell how much rogue knows, so. Because Rogue, as you said, with a kiss, she's absorbed some of Gambit's memories, but she also doesn't actually know the full memory, and he won't tell her. So for me, it was maybe a little too much. Kind of like, tell me what you know. No, I'm not gonna tell you what you know. Like, and, That. That beat hits about, like, three or four times within the course of those two issues.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah.

>> Rob: It's a lot of building up the secret, I guess that's what I'm saying. It's saying in terms of, like, the secret, which is very leaning into the soap opera elements of X Men here, where there's, like, something happening, but we're not gonna tell you what it is.

>> Guido: Well, before we reveal the secret, for our listeners who maybe haven't read this in 30 years or ever, what you're saying in terms of the buildup and what I said in the, sort of introduction to this segment, when you had these writers who were plotting out multi year arcs, huge stories that they didn't have to rush to pay off, then different writers stepped in, you got these redirections in these stories that were confusing. And, of course, I started telling you and made you read a little bit about Gambit's origin, even being an example of this. So when this. When the hints of this started, and it's very fun that I have a very clear memory. I'm a teenager at this point when these are coming out. So I can remember perfectly, like, as fans, we were all like, oh, my God, this is finally paying off. What is happening? What's going on? How is Gambit tied to sinister? And then around the same time, Sinister reveals there's probably a third summer's brother. So most of us thought that Gambit was the third summer's brother. He's got the red eyes. So that connects them both to sinister and to cyclops. And we at this point, know, and it is actually around this time, that we know, that, Sinister was involved in the orphanage that Scott was at. And so there's, like, lots of ways that this is building up in excitement and trying to pay off, dangling threads, and there was actually an intent for Gambit and sinister to be not really clones of each other. But as we understood from comic book resources doing some research into Claremont's intention, Sinister was supposed to be an avatar, a villain created by a little kid, and then Gambit would be the Avatar hero that was created and being controlled by the little kid. So that was supposed to be sort of a link. And then, of course, in the end, Claremont, in this alternate universe that we haven't read yet, but will one day, he makes it that he was actually cloned from him.

>> Rob: Cloned, clearly from Scott. Yes.

>> Guido: But Sinister controlled that. Sinister had all the DNA and did that. So clearly he wanted these characters bound up. And that's not what ends up happening here.

>> Rob: No. Which, you know, it made me think, too. I was saying to you, too, if he's a clone of Scott, that Remy has some characteristics of corsair, too. Right? They're like the swashbuckling, ne'er do well characters as well. So if there was, like, something with the DNA there, you could see, oh, he's more like his father than Scott is like his father, if you're buying into it. Yeah. But, yeah, it comes to the head in this. Yeah. No, it does not.

>> Guido: So, in the trial of Gambit, which we're going to background everything about the trial of Gambit being in Antarctica and it being Erik the Red and Joseph, but it's revealed that it's magneto, and, okay, we're gonna let all these.

>> Rob: Well, we should just say, oh, we should explain a little, just bit, because if people are confused. So, Eric the Red is revealed that they've all been captured in Antarctica by someone who's Erik the red, and he puts gambit on trial. And then we get, well, we'll talk about the reveal, but then at the end, there's another reveal where Erik the Red is actually the real magneto at this point.

>> Guido: Yeah, but it doesn't matter to the gambit plot.

>> Rob: Sure.

>> Guido: So in the gambit plot, the big reveal here is that he was the reason that mutant, the mutant massacre was able to happen. The mutant massacre, of course, being the iconic event from literally, a decade in our, timeline earlier where sinister and the marauders go and attack the Morlocks and kill a bunch of the Morlocks and rip off Angel's wings, Warren's wings. That's when he becomes the archangel and gets the metal wings. So it's a really, dark and horrible moment in this big event, the mutant massacre. And here it's revealed and retconned. Of course, it wasn't actually set up that gambit was the one working with Sinister, helping the marauders find where the Morlocks are. I guess because he's a master thief, he could figure this out and help them navigate it. It's not totally clear. And so as this first it gets revealed that he worked with Sinister, and that's the first betrayal. Then it gets revealed that he led them into the Morlock tunnel. So then, Warren is really outraged. So you just get these layers of, he might have been responsible in part for this horrible thing that happened. So what did you think of that? I know you're not probably, you probably weren't too familiar with even the mutant massacre.

>> Rob: Well, that, yeah, I had heard of, I knew of that, and I guess because I wasn't so invested in it, it didn't have the impacts for me that it probably had on many people when they were reading it at the time.

>> Guido: I don't think it did have a big impact, though, because I think what's tricky about this retcon reveal, it's almost a little anticlimactic. It was even anticlimactic in 1997 because it's like, okay, fine, whatever. And it's not because the mutant massacre isn't a big deal or anything. It's like, as gambit even points out in this issue, like, rogue was a villain working for Mystique.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: So this idea that, like, oh, the big, dark, horrible secret that we have to put Gambit on trial for is that he worked for sinister and participated in something that ended up being horrible because they're really clear in this, like, he actually saved the, the person who beat the moral.

>> Rob: Yeah. He didn't know what was going to happen.

>> Guido: He didn't know they were going to do this. And then he tries to, like, save people that are coming out as they're being massacred. So, it's not. It was not that big a reveal. It's clear that they just didn't know what to do with this, this secret, I'd say.

>> Rob: Well, I think the most interesting question that it raises is what you were just saying in terms of going from a villain to a hero. And he says, all this happened before I joined the X Men. And I now I'm an X Man, and, like, I'm a different person. Like, I've changed. And, yeah, rogue, you had a similar thing, although I guess she wasn't responsible for, like, this huge massacre, did other bad things. But I think that's the most interesting question that this issue raises, is, like, what does it mean? When have you changed? When can you be forgiven? How many good deeds can erase bad deeds? That kind of question for me.

>> Guido: Yeah. And that would have been interesting. And it does get explored. I mean, Gambit's exiled for a bit here, gets a solo series for a while. Obviously, this is a major rupture in his and rogues relationship. They do recover from it eventually, but really, it's years and years and years and years and years later. It's probably actually another decade later.

>> Rob: Yeah. And I can see ramifications of some of that. And I know this obviously happened in the comics as well, but with Magneto now on the animated series and in comics, of course, as being someone who's gone from being a villain to a hero back again and then back again again, like, but what does it mean? At what point can someone truly be a hero and it can erase these bad things? It seems something that's somewhat inherent to X Men as a, as a whole, as a property. We even see it here with. With Sabretooth's story kind of issues leading up to this, where he wants to be reformed, but he did all these really horrible things and was, was he an evil man? That's even the question they asked.

>> Guido: Well, and he's lying. He's lying to them, just so you know.

>> Rob: Oh, okay. I didn't know that. But, yeah, that is an interesting question of, like, okay, at what point can you be like, are you just evil? And what. What? When can you actually reform? I think it's something that's being asked over and over again in these issues and in excellence.

>> Guido: Well, you have it with the Morlocks, too. There's a whole warlock plot actually in 325. Right. So this is two years prior to the trial of Gambit, probably before they even decided what the trial of Gambit was going to reveal. You just have these other plots going on in the books where there's now this faction of Morlocks that want to kill humans, and can they be redeemed? And Storm has to deal with the possibility of killing one of them, which she does, although marrow survives. So, yeah, lots of ongoing questions, I'd say constantly in X Men about redemption.

>> Rob: M. Okay, well, let's. Let's deal out a new hand. And that new hand is exploring multiversity.

>> Guido: I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if?

>> Rob: So we are asking the question, what if Rogue and Gambit revealed the greatest secret of the Marvel universe from Mister Sinister? That is what if 100. And it is called what if starring Gambit on the COVID though the story is titled Paper Skin, and it's from September 1997.

>> Guido: It is written by Ivan Velez junior and co plotted with Klaus Jansen, who does the pencils and inks colored by Glynis Oliver and lettered by Chris Eliopoulos. So a bit on that team, actually. Ivan Velez is a favorite. We've gotten to see him on a panel live. He's openly gay, latino creator, so I love him. He did a lot of milestone work, actually, for DC in the nineties. Created Tales of the Closet, which was actually with Hetrick Martin Institute, the queer organization that actually has a high school in New York City. Did a sort of soap opera series of gay and lgbtq characters in New York, and then for Marvel, didn't do too much work, but a few dozen ghost riders and some venom and abomination, and then has done other creator owned stuff. Outside of all the milestone media, Claus is, of course, mostly known for the art and co plotting with Frank Miller on Daredevil, with Elektra, the death of Elektra, etcetera. So the iconic daredevil images, Klaus either inked or would sometimes do the full art. He's inked a ton for DC and Marvel and then has drawn and done some art and written some, won awards and has hundreds of books to his name. So those are the creators. I think we should give a summary up front.

>> Rob: sure. So I didn't write it down, so I'm going to do it from memory, which is that Gambit has. Has been stealing various things for Mister Sinister, doing job for Mister Sinister. And of course, there's like, the proverbial, like, one last job that Mister Sinister brings him in to do.

>> Guido: Yeah. And what I should have led with, actually, is here's what's really interesting about this issue. This issue comes out before uncanny X Men number 350.

>> Guido: So only a few months. Whether this issue was sitting in the hopper and they pulled it out then, I have no idea. It's weird timing, because clearly at this point, editorial knew that they were getting ready to go to the trial of Gambit, and I would hope and imagine they knew what the secret was. And then we have this issue which doesn't know what the secret is and tells a different version of the secret, though that's not quite the what if question. I guess we could make it the what if question, but so, like, you're saying the big secret, the betrayal, is that he's stolen things for Sinister, including Cerebro files. So he's given sinister the files of Cerebro so that sinister has access to every mutant's background.

>> Rob: Yes. M he's on the outs with Rogue and the X Men, I guess, assumingly because of that, he's, well, no, no, it's this.

>> Guido: This follows, you assume this follows X Men 45. Rogue knows there's some betrayal, but she doesn't know what, so, and that's clear when? Well, she knows about the Cerebro in the bedroom. Yeah, yeah, but that's the secret at this point. And then, like you said, there is this one final job where Sinister needs some unknown, unnamed object in a box, and he describes that having collecting all these boxes. It's been really hard for him to find all these boxes, and he's been collecting all these boxes, and they have revealed to him the secrets of the world. They have revealed to him how everything happens, how it will happen. They've revealed to him things about the mutants and the humans and what leads to their destruction and every secret, and he's collected them over the years, but there's this one last one he needs, and it's been really hard to find. And Gambit had already exchanged the cerebral files for the cure to the legacy virus. So we see Gambit's being motivated by doing good. And for this one last job, sinister says, I'll cure rogue if you get me this one box I need. And so Gambit obviously is motivated to do that, because he's like, okay, I'll do this. We can end up together.

>> Rob: So this one last box is like, it's like in the perfect intersection of, like, the Daily bugle and the Baxter.

>> Guido: Building, and it's underground, and there's a whole civilization down there.

>> Rob: They're kind of like the mole man's, like followers, but a little different. As well. And then they get this box. But Rogue has followed Gambit down there to see what's there. They get into a fight because she says, like, you're working for Sinister. How dare you? You get this box. He reveals, though, to her why he did it with the potion. And they debate it for a bit, and then ultimately they. Rogue decides, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to take this potion. And my belief, your belief in this is trust making me believe. So she takes the potion. They kiss, and then Gambit, like, convulses. We guess we don't gambit.

>> Guido: Gambit's dead, and Rogue has absorbed Gambit. So the next time we see Rogue, she is drag queen rogue. She has, like, a square jaw and a 05:00 shadow, because she is fully absorbed.

>> Rob: She's got the trench coat now instead of her little coach and his powers.

>> Guido: And so she goes and confronts sinister.

>> Rob: Yeah, Sinister's got the box, and he's doing, like, an occult ritual and stuff, and he's about to, like, release the powers of all these boxes.

>> Guido: Right. She's gonna open all the boxes.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: And the architecture of the multiverse is gonna be revealed.

>> Rob: Yeah. She's got the kinetic energy, so she throws the throwing card. She's in shadows, too, we should say, for a bit. So we think, oh, it's gambit. And, well, I didn't think it was gambit. I knew it was rogue. But she posts the show, she kills sinister, and, of course, then she's going to, like, look in the box, to.

>> Guido: The box breaks open. The Brock.

>> Rob: Oh, the box breaks open, and in the final page, we fill that in the box. And I love this moment. Issues of comic books, of the X Men and X Force and all the different.

>> Guido: It's all the Marvel comics.

>> Rob: All the Marvel comics.

>> Guido: Yeah, it's all the Marvel comics. So, yeah. And that's an important summary, because this is one of the very hard to find volume two issues of what if that is not digital online. So I hope you enjoyed our version of it. I'm going to start because I love this book a lot. I love, it's very simple, basically, three characters, really.

>> Rob: I don't think anyone else for, like.

>> Guido: Even though it's only three characters, but even the motivations are all very clear and simple. It's clear to me. I think this actually would be a better trial of Gambit reveal, because it's clear to me, like, okay, I get, especially having Gambit motivated to cure the legacy virus is really compelling at this point. The legacy virus is uncurable. It's killing mutants. We, no one knows what to do with it. And so the idea that he would trade for the cure, this information makes sense to me. Rogue's motivation and resistance to gambit and his more questionable acts. I love that. I don't like gambit dying, of course, because that just seems ridiculous to me, that this kiss kills him and he gets absorbed. But what of course, I love, because our regular listeners and, you know, I love meta stories about stories, and so I just love this end it. It, like, it. I don't know. I want more of it. I love it. I love this idea that, like, what sinister's going after is Marvel comics, that somehow they have encoded the universe into comic books. It's fourth wall breaking. It reminds me of, like, some of the more modern Loki series that do some of this stuff with stories and have him actually be in a comic book and know he's in a comic, or deadpool, of course, eventually knows he's in a comic. And so I love it. What, what was your reaction to it?

>> Rob: Well, I, unlike, you were surprised when I said, oh, I guess the ending, because you were like, oh, my God, didn't that shock you? And it's like, I only really got it. I wasn't sure what was going to be in the box until we rejoined sinister. And he says something along the lines of, like, this, this is gonna give me free will. What's in here? Like, whatever spell or whatever I'm doing is gonna give me free will. And then as soon as he said free will, I was like, oh, because he's being controlled by the writer, and it's gonna be a pencil or something. I knew it was gonna be something related to, like, comics in the end, so I wasn't, like, completely surprised. But it's got a very tales from the crypt, twilight zone. We've talked about that stuff, like, before for what if? But this has that really, like, that really leans into those kind of tropes that you would definitely wouldn't be out of, out of sync for, like, rod serling to suddenly appear.

>> Guido: No, it's a very, like, monkey's paw, like, be careful what you wish for kind of plot. Of course. I think, I mean, my only complaint is the art.

>> Rob: Yeah, the art does seem rushed.

>> Guido: and that's Janssen's style in a lot of ways. I don't know if he was particularly rushed here. I was surprised he did the inking over his own pencils himself, but there are some of those scenes. It's especially when rogue becomes rogue gambit, where it's just. It's kind of hideous. Like, I want that last page to be gorgeous. And it's just. It's weird. Like someone. I don't even know where it went wrong, but, like, the 05:00 shadow on her face almost looks like she's got like a blob over her face. And that is, like, on the page. It's not a production error. There is like, something wrong with that page.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: I don't know what's going on.

>> Rob: They're not being, Ivan and Klaus weren't being like, ahead of their time with like, non binary representation in 1997, I guess.

>> Guido: Well, no, I mean, maybe they were. I don't even care about that. I'm saying the art just doesn't look right.

>> Rob: There's something wrong with the art. I.

>> Guido: About that.

>> Rob: No, there's maybe the scan we were looking at or something like that. I don't know.

>> Guido: It's in the print issue. No, it's in the print issue. Wrong.

>> Rob: Little, like, humanoid folks that are, like I said, I wasn't sure if they were the mole man's people or just another. Some of it, I think, is just because they're not super sketched out. Like, you can't really super tell who they are.

>> Guido: So I'll say all of this is Janssen's style, which is very sketchy and loose. But I think here it's fine in a lot of the panels, but some of them, I want more detail or I want more attention being paid to how it looks.

>> Rob: But I think. I think you're right in terms of the simplicity. That's what we've often said about these what ifs. Like so many of them bite off more than they can chew. And this one really just is trying to tell a super simple story. And like that, that, that trope that we all know of, like the one last score and that it's always gonna go wrong for the thief and that the big boss that he's working for is not up to no good. Is up to no good. All those kind of things are filtered.

>> Guido: In through this story, and the world doesn't deviate. I mean, some of the what ifs that are really good have really complex world building, and this one is not what's, what's different here. And, ah, this is sort of what you're saying. But it's interesting because, generally I feel like you and I don't like these. This is a what if where the, the plot is what's different, not the world. The world is exactly the world we know. And, now with the one sort of weird thing where they don't know what gambit's secret actually is, and so they create a hypothetical secret here because, again, I don't think that's the point of this. What if, I don't think it was like, what if the secret is he's trading cerebro files? It's like, no, that's not the point of this. What if. So outside of that one little detail, this is completely in our world, meant to be consumed in 1997 comics with the characters we know and love from 616, gambit, sinister, rogue. So, yeah, I think it's great. I think it's one people should definitely track down and check out because I think it is really also unique. Again, that meta storytelling thing has shown up so many times now, this is probably one of the earlier iterations of it, certainly in, in the big two. So do you want, before we move on, do you want to go back to Earth 979?

>> Rob: I don't. I would. I guess it would be interesting to explore more stories where the characters know that they're comic book characters. So maybe not necessarily going back to see rogue specifically, but going back to see, like, someone else who is stumbling upon this kind of discovery.

>> Guido: Yeah, well, there are other examples of that. I can point you to them. So, yeah, I don't think we need to go back to this world. I think it's just a good story, but it's good because it ends. There's not any place to go characters.

>> Rob: That's true. It is like, an end. But before we end, let's talk about some pondering possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted? Averted. Averted.

>> Guido: I just watched that episode of X Men animated series again last week.

>> Rob: It's like, ah, I know where that's from. So, Guido, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?

>> Guido: Well, this is mostly for fun. We can speculate on the tv show and talk about other things, but I've been really eager for you to read, although you claim you were rereading it, but I'm unsure if that's true.

>> Rob: I, definitely read it. I definitely read it Rogue and Gambit.

>> Guido: Wedding, because I reread the rogue and Gambit wedding after X Men 97, episode five. And I think it is some of my favorite comics there are from an era where there's not a lot of great comics coming out of, especially X Men titles. So I wanted us to read it and figured it's a good culmination to these stories to see where rogue and gambit stories, sort of end. I mean, obviously they're still characters, but this is an important moment.

>> Rob: So this is X Men gold issues 26 through 30. Till death do us part. Till death do us. Parts one through five, from June.

>> Guido: Till death does part. Parts one through five.

>> Rob: Parts one through. Okay, there we go. From, June 2018 to August 2018.

>> Guido: So it's written by Mark Guggenheim, m penciled by David Marquez, though sometimes with help from Michelle Bandini or her Aldo Borges. Inked by David Marquez. Sometimes with help from Geraldo Borges. Colored by Matt Wilson. Sometimes with Arif Prianto. Lettered by Corey Pettit and edited by Darren Shan, Chris Robinson and Jordan D. White. Mark Guggenheim is most known, especially prior to this, for being a tv writer and creator. The CW arrow verse in particular. He did a ton of writing for and DC comic books. For the most part, David is just extraordinary and does mostly DC. I think he was exclusive for a while now, creator owned and I think just has, some of the most beautiful art. And in fact, a page from Xmengold 30 was the first, certainly the first, like, expensive, original comic art page I ever bought. And it is framed, hanging on our wall with a display light. And one of my favorite issues of comics ever. Every time I read it, I am, my eyes water. I am on the verge of tears. I love this story.

>> Rob: Yeah. So.

>> Guido: If you don't stop talking.

>> Rob: Well, just, in general, you were saying about this era in comics. I don't know. I actually liked the writing here and the art here more than the nineties one, which might be more iconic, but there's a lot less dialogue. It's a lot like, there's a lot more jokes.

>> Guido: Fast paced, everything.

>> Rob: Everyone is like. Everyone is super witty. Like, nightcrawler especially. He's got, like, a lot of good jokes and kitty's got a lot of good lines. The art is, like, beautiful and, yeah, it just feels so much more succinct in that way. So I don't know, for my brain, I was able to digest it a lot easier.

>> Guido: Well, this is from the era, too, which we have not really left, where stories are constructed around trade paperback collections and collected editions. so every writer is being told to write generally five or six part stories that then can be a collection. And sometimes that's bad. Sometimes there's a story that should have only been two issues. And sometimes it's really good because it means that the writer has created a clear arc in their mind. And this for sure was huge, a massive plan because, spoiler alert, for a comic that's six years old, but if you haven't read it and you don't want to get spoiled, then you should definitely stop listening and come back after you read it because there's a huge twist on it. So pause. Okay, clearly, this was totally planned out for a long time because you have kitty and colossus engagement happening and you have year, not years, but you have a year or maybe two. Many issues of buildup. We know a wedding is going to happen and they're marketing the hell out of a wedding issue and they're confirming a wedding is going to happen and they promise that a wedding is happening. We get the solicits for a title that's confidential to come out after. And so, and we might have known it was called Mister M and misses X at that point. So it's like, okay, wow, this is neat. They're going to marry off to X Men. And then the huge twist is the just stunning moment when Kitty phases colossus touch when he's going to put the ring on her hand and phases into the ground and can't marry him and decides she can't do it and has cold feet. And then the twist, of course, being that we've gotten this very subtle background build up where Gambit is realizing, like, he wants to commit to rogue and the two of them are deeply in love, and he proposes to her in that moment and says, let's do it right now. And they get married and it's just beautiful. And it's making me want to cry right now. I love it.

>> Rob: Yeah. I think that that one panel that you mentioned where she's facing through as he's putting the ring on is just, like, stunning. It's like, wow, that is, that's just one of those great, well, it's a great combination of the writing and the art because the art is great. But, oh, my gosh, of course, the character who can m become transparent and it's the ring going in. Like, that is the perfect moment to have her back out. Like, there's no other better way to do it. Like ten out of ten, right there it is. It's just so powerful in that moment and everything, like, leading up to it. And you have Colossus's sister who's maybe having sewing the doubts in kitty, but, like, she feels bad. So you're following her story as well. It's just great how, like, all these different pieces are kind of going into the main story and kind of what kitty is then gonna experience. And I think, like what you said, like, the rogue and gambit thing is happening just on the periphery, so it is not so much like hitting you over the head where you're reading this and going, oh, okay, this is what's gonna happen.

>> Guido: Those two are gonna get married. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's where Guggenheim maybe being a tv writer or just his strengths, m as a writer in general, the way he can tell this character driven story and have it sort of build, and even his sense of why Kitty and Colossus shouldn't get married, I think is perfect. They flash back and they love each other, and there's no question about that. But they were teenage sweethearts. They loved each other as kids, and they're something else now. And they were so excited when Colossus was resurrected, and then when Kitty came out of the. She was in a bullet for traveling the galaxy for a long time. so when they got reunited, they were so excited, and it was like, oh, let's start our relationship again. Let's do this again. But they're not the same people. And so it just makes total sense that they wouldn't be together, that he's sort of a hopeless romantic and he's always been the poet. And she realizes she's not kitty anymore. She's soon to be Kate. So, yeah, I love that. And then Roque and Gambit just being together, and you asked if they were still married, and, yes, they are. I think. I hope writers have realized you can just have a happy couple, and it still works for really good storytelling. They've had some great mini series as a married couple. They've been featured in the Krakoa era at times, and I think they'll just be together at this point. They're really so good together.

>> Rob: Yeah, I just. I loved it. I mean, I got a little bit teary reading it as well. And the lead up to it is great, too. I think the whole idea of colossus being kidnapped at his bachelor party in Vegas is just also just a very fun concepts there. And it's like, mixing it with, like, this mass genocide like plot, which is, like, what there's so much of in X Men, but the fact that even that heaviness does not make it not still feel light and fun, because it's easy just to go to, like, ah, very dark place with that. But they're. Guggenheim's able to keep it still feeling light and like this romp, even though this kind of nameless m science. No, not nameless, but this is this generic scientist lady woman who wants to just kill all the mutants. It's also happening at the same time. Yeah.

>> Guido: So if anyone hasn't read this, go read this. Also, I am also convinced. Spoiler alert for X Men 97. I'm convinced Gambit will have to be resurrected at some point, and I think that they will get married on the show. So I just definitely want it to happen and hope it happens. But I feel like I saw little breadcrumbs of it in some of the episodes, especially episode five. There was little bits of, like, gambit where I was like, m he's getting ready, like, to marry him, and he's not married.

>> Rob: You're gonna see. Well, since Kitty and Colossus are not characters really on the animated series, I wonder if some of their plot will be put on to Scott and Gene on the animated show where they. Right, well, of course they are married, but they're not the same people. One of them might not literally be the same person, and they're struggling with memories, struggle and break up, and that it then goes to these other characters who have had, like, this other, have also had this relationship.

>> Guido: Yeah. So some of the best X Men examples of quintessential X Men today, soap opera, dangling plothreads, multi year arcs, drama, romance. I love it.

>> Rob: Mm I loved talking about all these with you and continuing our slow descent into becoming an X Men podcast.

>> Guido: But for now, dear Watchers, that is a wrap. Thank you for listening. I have been Guido Labeau.

>> Rob: I have been Mister Robin.

>> Guido: The reading list, the rather lengthy reading list is in the show notes, and you can follow us online at. Ah, dear Watchers, leave us a review.

>> Rob: Wherever you listen to podcasts, and we'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.

>> Guido: In the meantime, in the words of Otu, keep pondering the possibilities.