Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

>> Rob: The frightful four, what a boar. The sinister six, now I'm gonna nix, but the Salem seven, that's a match made in heaven for Dear Watchers, an omniversal comic book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

>> Guido: We are a traffic picture.

>> Rob: And me, Rob, with a snake for a body.

>> Guido: But then you'll be Rob Tillian. Rob Tillion.

>> Rob: Rob, Rob. And aren't you impressed I did that whole opening? I didn't write it down. It was all from the old noggin.

>> Guido: Oh, yes, impressed is the word.

>> Rob: And, Guido, what's new in our little section of the multiverse?

>> Guido: Well, our last episode was Zaytana, so kind of unintentionally, though I guess intentionally, just not with some grand plan. We're sort of sticking with witches.

>> Rob: This is our third witch episode in a row.

>> Guido: it is. It is. So go back and listen to our Agatha episode, which is two episodes ago. It'll actually give some good backstory to the group we're talking about today. Last week, Zaytana was a little foray into DC's witches. And sadly, our next episode can't be witches. But happily, that's because our next episode's gonna be our New York Comic Con special.

>> Rob: Yay.

>> Guido: So when next you're listening. We'll have just wrapped up our comic con experience at New York and we'll have lots to report on in our episode. So tune in for that in two weeks. Or if you're going to be at Comic Con, come find us.

>> Rob: Yeah, and you're too modest to maybe say Guido, but I also wanted to say your book came out this week.

>> Guido: It did. It's not modest. It's just that we. I've said it a lot over a lot of weeks.

>> Rob: That's true. I guess that's the inverse of modesty. You've actually mentioned it over and over again.

>> Guido: So, yes, now it's out, you can walk into some bookstores and find my book, queer mythology. What's really cool, though, comic book related, is the artist that I was so lucky to work with. James Fenner had his first cover credit on a comic book. He did the colors for mighty morphing Power Rangers Usagi Ojimbo issue number one. It is stunningly gorgeous because of James colors, as is my book, queer mythology. So go check it out and go follow James.

>> Rob: Of course, that might be the longest comic book title. Mighty Morphin Power Rangers usagi Ojimbo number one.

>> Guido: I don't even. That might not be its title, but that's just what it is. It's a crossover book.

>> Rob: Well, if you're joining us for the first time, we have three parts of our journey today through the multiverse origins of the story, exploring multiversity, and pondering possibilities. So thanks for coming along.

>> Guido: And remember, leave us a five star review wherever you're listening, and find us on social media.

>> Rob: Dear Watchers, and with that, dear witches. I can't believe it. Taking us three weeks to come up with that one. And with that, dear Witchers, welcome to episode 144. Let's check out what's happening in the multiverse in today's cabal alternate universe. And, today we are asking the burning question. Burning at the stake, that is. What if Salem seven and Agatha Harkness were one being?

>> Guido: Oh, mysterious. And I'm sure everyone's on the edge of their seats, dying to know what if? But we'll tell you, because the earth that we're covering somewhat, overshadows the Salem seven focus of today because. Because it is our first foray into Marvel's ultimate universe.

>> Rob: Ooh.

>> Guido: So we've never covered Earth 1610, which in over three years and over 140 episodes, should tell you how I feel about the universe. Not a fan. But before we dive into today's discussion, I will very briefly summarize. For those of you who don't know what Marvel's ultimate universe was slashed is so in an attempt to make money at a time of struggle and free themselves from the golden shackles of continuity, which I think are good. That's why I'm calling them golden. Marvel decided to create a whole new universe without an in universe explanation, like DC had done many times without it being an elseworld story, because they kept to the core of the character origins, for the most part, that people were familiar with. So this debuts in 2000 with Ultimate Spider man by Brian Michael Bendis, expands with Ultimate X Men, a ton of miniseries. The Ultimates, which is their version of Avengers, deeply inspired the MCU in countless ways, and in 2006, leads to the Ultimate Fantastic Four, which actually has a few different creative teams over its run. We are reading right toward the end of the line, actually. Within a year, the whole line sort of implodes in quite a, violent ending, actually. Then gets a soft reboot two more times before being destroyed in 20 Fifteen's secret wars, though, finally fully rebooted just this year in 2024. So before we get more into the characters and the content we're focused on today, what was your background with ultimate comics prior to this reading?

>> Rob: Zero.

>> Guido: But you were aware and existed?

>> Rob: Yes, I was aware. I had known that Miles Morales was connected to the ultimate universe, which was pretty much my only knowledge of the ultimate universe. So I did know that it was something to do with breaking from the continuity, rebooting the characters. I knew that much. But that was about it. This was certainly not a time when I was reading comics. And I know just from us going to our weekly comic book, local comic book visits to Earthworld comics in Albany, that some, some people even there love the ultimate universe and some people do not. It seems like it's very polarizing. That's the other thing.

>> Guido: I think it's pretty divisive. Yeah. And some of that has to do with the creators. Some of the creators. And some of the choices. My gosh, I mean, when I'm talking about the violent end in Ultimatum, I think I saw online they killed 35 characters in that crossover. It's a, yeah, there are some strange choices in it.

>> Rob: So were you reading this when it first came out?

>> Guido: Absolutely not. I was angry at it. I still might be 24 years later. I didn't read it. I was uninterested. I liked continuity. I was reading all of the core Marvel comics. I was a fan of DC's reboots, but they were always explained, so I was not interested in just jumping into something totally new. Spider man being the first also would not have been a hook for me. So I paid attention to what was happening in X Men and the terrible choices that were going on in that line. And I then, even a few years after the line ended, decided to buy every single trade paperback of Ultimate X Men, try to read it, and I really couldn't and have since sold them all. So I'm really just not a fan of.

>> Rob: But you're trying to collect all of X Men, so do you need to buy them back, or do you consider those.

>> Guido: I do not have single issues. I, do not consider them X Men.

>> Rob: So it's a loophole collecting.

>> Guido: In theory. I will probably need to buy them one day. Luckily, they're not worth that much money, because they're really just not good, to most people. But, yes.

>> Rob: Well, we know your background there with the ultimate comics. But what, Guido, is your background with the Salem seven? Because that's the other part of today's question.

>> Guido: I only really knew they existed. I'll get more into this era of Fantastic Four when we talk about the issue, but they've only been in a dozen titles total. Not titles, even issues. A dozen issues. They are barely exist. So I only really knew they existed. I probably learned the most I knew about them when we were watching WandaVision and trying to, with everyone else on the Internet, figure out what are all the possible things happening.

>> Rob: Salem seven and swarm. Those are the three things that are definitely going to be in this series, and the Zodiac.

>> Guido: And, I mean, there were so many different directions it could have gone in. And so I think at that point, like, I was learning a little bit more about them, but they really are quite minimal again. So I was simply aware they existed, which I think no one can say anything other than that, considering that they've had so few appearances. But what was your background with this group?

>> Rob: Well, I mostly had heard their name when we were watching WandaVision, and we'd talk amongst ourselves and with Elliot trying to predict what's there and hearing the name Salem seven. But then I didn't really even know what they looked like. And then we started reading for today's episode, and I saw a picture of them. It was like, oh, my gosh, that's the Salem seven. Because I mainly read Marvel universe, the handbook.

>> Guido: And they were in a, lot of handbooks. Yes, I remember them in the master edition. At some point, I just remember the look.

>> Rob: I remember, oh, there's a guy with a water cannon for a hand, and there's a woman who's part snake, and it doesn't seem like they should go together.

>> Guido: They felt like, they shouldn't, like.

>> Rob: Amalgamation of all these other characters. So they always had stuck in my brain. I couldn't have even told you that they were called the Salem seven. But when we were reading the issue for today's episode, I was like, oh, my gosh. I know exactly who these people are only by appearance. So that's my background.

>> Guido: We've even been to Salem multiple times, have never thought about doing a reading on one of those trips, although this.

>> Rob: Is not Salem, Massachusetts, though, so.

>> Guido: Well, they were at some point historically, but, yes, then they're part of new Salem.

>> Rob: Yes. Well, we'll get into that. Now, let's conjure up our origins of the story right now on this very show. You're gonna get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago. So this is Fantastic Four, volume one, issue 186, from Marvel Comics. Enter Salem seven from September 1977.

>> Guido: I'm fitting, right? They should have done July. Then it would have been 777. I was thinking that when I was writing that out. So this issue is written by Len Wine, penciled by George Perez, inked by Joe Sinnott, though they're credited as art by George Perez and Joe Sinnett, I have to say. Colored by Glynis Wine, lettered by John Costanza, edited by Len. So this is a legendary duo. Len Wine, of course, co created Wolverine, swamp thing, relaunched the X Men just two years prior to this. Really is a Marvel DC legend already at this point, and would just go on to continue that path. Perez, same deal. Although at this point, he's 23, he's already a bit of a legend. He's done Avengers and Fantastic Four for the most part. But three years after this, less than three years after this, he's gonna create teen titans. Co create teen titans. So Perez, legend, in the making at this point. So before we start talking about the issue, since it might not be an issue most people can recall immediately from their memory, why don't you give us a quick summary?

>> Rob: So Agatha Harkness is to be put to death by Nicholas scratch for unveiling the witch's magical presence to the world. But the FF try to save her but tangle with the Salem seven, who each have powers designed to specifically defeat the Fantastic Four. However, of course, our heroes defeat the Salem seven, and the rest of the witches turn on scratch, imprisoning him in another dimension. And as the Fantastic Four and Agatha fly away, she reveals that scratch was, in fact, her son.

>> Guido: I love that final panel, I have to say. But the names of our Salem seven, I just want to say, because they're going to differ throughout this episode, but this crew, the og Salem seven, are bruticus, hydran, thorn with two ends, vacuum with a k. Yeah, I mean, all these spellings are totally off. Gazella, gazelle. Gazelle, reptillae, and vertigo. So one of them is a word, one is an animal, and the rest are made up, bonkers things. So let's start with your first impressions. What'd you think of this?

>> Rob: Definitely. Well, what age would you. Is this considered?

>> Guido: This is bronze Age.

>> Rob: Bronze Age? Well, very much like what I think.

>> Guido: Of it is a quintessential fantastic four Bronze Age issue.

>> Rob: It takes, like, a probably about to read this issue as it took, like, to read, like, two or three of the other modern issues that we're gonna.

>> Guido: Talk about for sure. But I have to say, so I alluded to this earlier. This era of fantastic Four is a massive reread I'm trying to do. I'm, right now stuck in silver age and can't get out and really, really want to get to bronze Age because I think this era is so good. I think it is just fun and structurally as a story, what I love about every Fantastic four of this era is like, this is a standalone one issue story m however, it picks up immediately where previous things left off and sets up at the end in that really melodramatic final panel of Agatha revealing that was her son sets up a future that actually doesn't pay off for like almost five, six, seven years. It's almost a decade before that story even pays off. So the way Fantastic Four is constructed as a soap opera with like these episodic superhero elements, I simply love. And I think this issue is a great example of that.

>> Rob: You know, we talked about on our, on the show before about our fairly recent love of Doctor who or the Doctor who reboot. And that format very much is that where it's mostly standalone stories, but there is a soap opera element, there's a continuing storyline that goes throughout, but they all act kind of on their own. I can kind of really see a throughline there.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And that's the kind of story I love and resonates with me. So I loved that. I loved that you get a recap at the beginning of what got them where they are, but this issue is truly standalone. And then I, like I said, love the Agatha reveal at the end because it just opens the door to so many questions. In a lot of ways, we're going to be talking about this actually a lot more in our next segment. But when I read that and saw the Agatha reveal at the end, I thought this is all very MCU.

>> Guido: Let's bring in some characters, let's set stuff up and let's just leave it there. Let's just leave these doors and windows open for future creators to play with. And honestly, that's what happened with Agatha all along. It was not some grand design where it was like, ooh, we want to have an Agatha series and we're going to debut her in WandaVision. And this, that and the other thing, it's like, let's just put these really different characters in, see what works and then play with it. And I feel like that's what's happening here with this entire team of Salem seven because they are wacky.

>> Rob: Yeah, they make really no sense because going into this not really knowing who the Salem seven were, I figured, okay, they're all going to be witches and each have like our own witch power, which, you know, we'll get to later.

>> Guido: Craft or sorcery to turn into their powers. Right? Like so we should be clear. They are grounded in witches.

>> Rob: Yes. Though, then they're just so different.

>> Guido: Oh, yeah.

>> Rob: And also be. Some of them have, like, technology.

>> Guido: Yeah.

>> Rob: So I got to look up their names. Hydron, he's got, like, the.

>> Guido: Or vacuum.

>> Rob: Yeah. Hydron's got, like, water cannon arm and there.

>> Guido: Yeah. Looks like a rom. He looks like.

>> Rob: He looks just like rob. And. And even his powers are weird because vacuum can become intangible, but can also become a vacuum. So it's like, okay, those are two powers that don't really have anything in common with each other.

>> Guido: Yeah. And then meanwhile, you have, like, reptilla, who looks like a Conan villain, or like, a he man villain, where you're saying that this is pre he man. She's just your quintessential snake woman sorceress.

>> Rob: And then Gazelle is just like, oh, she's a quick.

>> Guido: She has a lot of agility.

>> Rob: Agility which is like any other character in Marvel or whatever. Yeah. In fact, you were saying that before, but I think I see a lot of he man, I see a lot of the eighties Gi Joe also in this, that where we're just going to create fun characters. He man, especially where it's like, okay, they're going to have one pronounced feature. They're going to have a long elephant nose. Or here it's like, no, we're going to shoot water. Like, I can very much see that element of that is then coming into, like, the he man world.

>> Guido: I actually am curious, especially knowing the Marvel method. Like, I bet the character design led here. I bet George Perez drew some really cool, quirky characters, and then they were like, all right, let's name these people and give them powers.

>> Rob: Yeah. It reminds me a bit, too, of there's that famous key and Peele sketch about gremlins two, where they all go around the table, and it's like, what if there was a singing gremlin? And, like. And so it's this, like, what if there's a guy that shoots thorns out of his body? Okay, that's fine.

>> Guido: Yeah. What if there's a character named Vertigo that makes you not able to stand, which is exactly the same as an existing character in the Savage land in X Men.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: What if we just reuse an idea with a completely different character?

>> Rob: Well, I said to you, too, that there's also, a vague, like, zodiac kind of element to them, even though they're not there. But there's a water. I don't know, there's something there, and then there's also the Zodiac team, but they must have come.

>> Guido: Yeah, I don't think there's anything Zodiac here. I just think it's the fact that they're all so different that you end up with a few who overlap with ideas that you could see in a Zodiac team or something like that. So, yeah, I like this issue for being a Bronze Age Fantastic Four. I don't know that I would have walked away from this issue and been like, ooh, I love the Salem seven. I don't think there were a lot of fans of it because it's so strange.

>> Guido: But because it's so strange, it's so cool.

>> Rob: Yeah. Well, not knowing Nicholas scratch too, as a character, other than that, he was hinted at with WandaVision and now more so with Agatha. I thought, okay, he's gonna be like real wizardy type, but here he's, he's actually very curvy. He's got, like, a big kirby hat.

>> Guido: Yes.

>> Rob: And he's, very multicolor and pink and yellow. So it's not what you think of when you think of, like, oh, you think of black and red and purples if he's going to be a witch, but no, he's much more of like a dark side apocalypse planet kind of thing.

>> Guido: Yeah, they definitely went, like, almost cosmic in here. Fourth world. You're right. There are Kirby dots actually all over the panels. I'm just looking, or Kirby crackle, as it's called. So for sure they're still doing an homage to Kirby, and I think that's it for this issue.

>> Rob: Okay, well, now let's go where we've never journeyed before, into the ultimate universe with exploring multiversity.

>> Guido: I am your guide through these vast new realities.

>> Rob: Follow me and ponder the question.

>> Guido: What.

>> Rob: If this is ultimate Fantastic Four? Numbers 54 to 57 from Marvel comics titled Salem Seven. It's from July to October 2008.

>> Guido: It's written by Mike Carey. Now it's penciled and inked by Taylor Kirkham, Tyler Kirkham, though Eric Basildois, does 56. And however, the art is credited to top cow. So clearly there's some deal here at this point. I didn't dig into it because I don't care, and I'll share why shortly. But top cow is, of course, the major image art house from Mark Silvestri. And so they clearly worked, with, consulted with, contracted is the word. I was looking for top cow to do the art here, and that's how Tyler Kirkham got on here. The colorist is blonde, the letterist is Russ Wooten, and the editors are Bill Roseman, Lauren Sankovich, and, Ralph Macchio. Mike Carey, at this point, is pretty famous, I think, for his X Men run. Obviously, that's what I'm biased in. The X Men run is happening actually parallel to this, slightly before slash, parallel to this. He was also quite famous at this point. He's a british writer who done a lot of 2000 ad and did a lot at Vertigo, including, Hellblazer and Lucifer and the unwritten, which is one of my favorite vertigo titles.

>> Rob: Seven character vertigo, though. Publishing house.

>> Guido: The publishing house Vertigo, yes. Maybe that's why they hired him. At this point, Tyler Kirkham is known exclusively for his work at top Cow, and he is now still a DC artist that's pretty well regarded. So before we get into this arc, why don't you give us a summary of these four issues?

>> Rob: Okay. Very abbreviated summary here. Sue finds a strange egg in Salem and examines its slimy contents. Meanwhile, a superhero group called the Seven, also from Salem. Coincidence, I think.

>> Guido: But Salem, Oregon, in this case, just.

>> Rob: To be clear, arrive in Manhattan and usurp the Fantastic Four as the premier superhero team. Also arriving is S H I e l D agent Agatha Harkness, who starts to turn the FF against each other, helped along by romantic tensions between Reed and Suez. The seven attack Su, who is saved by Namor, and he reveals that the seven is actually an ancient Hydra creature that destroyed Atlantis and will populate and multiply forever, and that Agatha is actually part of the seven. Agatha and the seven have captured Johnny and intend to use his power to multiply to infinity, destroying the world or something like that. But Namor and the FF team up to defeat the villains with turning their bodies into living bombs that destroys their hoard of eggs.

>> Guido: So just to be clear, because I don't think your summary makes it clear, they're one being. It is one creature who is taking on the appearance of Agatha and the seven. And in this, world, the seven are Alpha dog, filament, ghostware, neuropath, penultimate primal screamer, and synchronous, which are great names and all. Like what? Late nineties punk names, right? Like, or something. I don't know.

>> Rob: Yeah. Well, there's a band, primal scream, so. Yeah, yeah.

>> Guido: But all of it. Synchron, ghost riff, element, alpha dog. Yeah, there's something post grunge going on here, but, general impressions, I guess.

>> Rob: Well, I love the. The characterization of the Fantastic Four like I did also with the previous issue, because the Fantastic Four are such great characters, and I think my Carrie really did encapsulate, like, Ben and all those characters. Once you, though, get into, like, the plot elements. Yeah, it gets kind of confusing because even the idea that Agatha and all the seven are one just doesn't, I don't know, it's never really fully explained. And there's all. They come from these eggs. They were also in Atlantis. There just seems also that there's a lot of coincidences going on. Sue even at one point says, like, yeah, I thought it was a coincidence that I found this egg creature in Salem and now this group from Salem.

>> Guido: Well, it's not a coincidence because they're coming to find the eggs.

>> Rob: I know it's, they're coming, but, like.

>> Guido: And she brought the egg back.

>> Rob: I get that. But at first they don't say that like that. They.

>> Guido: But they don't know the reveal. yeah, I don't think there's a lot of coincidences. I think it's very convoluted. And I love Mike Carrey as a writer, and I think this is a fun Sci-Fi story. I think there is more explanation that could have been included here, certainly, than just like, the rather convenient Namor knows this creature and has it inscribed on his ancient atlantean wall, and can therefore tell them that it's one creature who splits themselves into, I guess, actually eight beings at this .7 and Agatha.

>> Guido: Which also is not clear. No. Why is it doing that? I know it wants to multiply, but why split in this way? And why split with these powers, too? I wish there'd been a little explanation as to why it manifested equally to the original, which I appreciate that Mike Carrey really pays, service to the original in that he has these seven weird characters who are pretty disconnected from each other. Some are technology oriented, some are more like beastly, old school comic book character oriented.

>> Rob: It makes almost, though less sense than with the magic, because magic, you can say, is magic, whatever one of them is gonna look like.

>> Guido: Yeah, well, this is alien magic, but with no explanation.

>> Rob: But it makes even less sense that they're all coming out of some egg at one.

>> Guido: No, they're not all coming out. There is one creature, but then all.

>> Rob: The other eggs are them too, right?

>> Guido: No, the eggs are who they want to create. I thought. I guess neither of us are completely forces.

>> Rob: They're going to multiply at each time, so they multiply by seven each time. So next time they're going to be like 14 and, then so on. And that's why they can like, take over the world. So I thought all the other eggs are gonna be variations on them, I.

>> Guido: Guess, but they also need, like, energy in order to reproduce.

>> Rob: Yeah, yeah. So they need to point.

>> Guido: We're confused, and we just read it, and we each read it, and that.

>> Rob: Seems to be also, like, a classic trope where we need suddenly a big energy source. And that's gonna be what basically, I guess, like, warms the eggs there. Oh. Because there is the beat early on, wherever I thing is trying to get Johnny to, like, soft boil an egg as, like, a dare. So I guess that's an illusion then.

>> Guido: Yeah. Set up of how they want to use their powers. So, yeah, a little confusing.

>> Rob: And, see, I thought Agatha should have been like, she's their mother. A mother. Or, like, the. Maybe she is, or, like, a high priestess or something. like, she's a worshipper of this seven. So she's helping get.

>> Guido: Maybe she is. And we couldn't tell that. It's very hard to tell.

>> Rob: But sue then does say that she's also.

>> Guido: That they're one and the same. That's why I thought it's one creature who, like, can manifest itself as seven. But you're right, they do say they multiply in sevens, so.

>> Rob: Yeah, and, like, I don't know, one guy, you know, shoots, like, stuff out of his hands. Okay. But, yeah, then why one's got, like, a machine gun arm, and then the main character, alpha dog, is just such a. Even though this is 2008, he feels like such a nineties.

>> Guido: Yeah, he looks even, like, havoc in the extinction agenda era.

>> Rob: Or, like, Like the Wyatt Russell character usage.

>> Guido: Usage.

>> Rob: Like something like that. Or the one who's, you know who. He really reminded me of the one who's on the first season of Jessica Jones nuke. Is that. Oh, yeah, yeah, he looks like. But it's like, if they're all coming out of some alien egg, like, why is he just, like, an american soldier like character?

>> Guido: Unclear what the aliens inspiration was exactly like, but I think stepping back, zooming out of. I think the idea is fun. I think it's a fun idea that Mike Carrey had here to play with in terms of. All right, I'm going to take these characters, even Agatha at this point. Of course, as we talked about in our Agatha episode, no one cared about Agatha. she doesn't have some rich backstory going on. So I'm going to take these characters who are bound together because the seven are Nicholas Scratch's children in the 616. And so Agatha is their grandmother. So I'm gonna take these characters that are bound together and completely reimagine and reinvent what they're doing and where they come from. And I think he does a good job of that.

>> Rob: Hm.

>> Guido: Again, clearly, we couldn't follow it very well. Now, execution of this, this art is not for me in any way, shape, or form. This art is not for me, first of all. Most importantly, it is simply Mark Silvestri, top cow art. Top cow studio. And that's Witchblade, you know, so you can picture. Okay, so clearly, top cow studio was just training everyone to draw exactly like that. And Tyler Kirkham does a great job of drawing exactly like that. But, yes, Agatha Harkness sadly looks like she's being drawn to be a prostitute. there's even comments on her breast, which that would be Mike Carrie's fault for doing. But his illustrations do not help.

>> Rob: Well, she's. She's kind of making fun of people who are. Who are.

>> Guido: It still doesn't need to be there. Yeah. so, yeah, I think it's also, I don't know if he was rushed, and that's why Eric Baseltwois steps in on 56. But there is a point where it stops having detail. I think some of what Mike's, Mark Sylvester's art stand out, even though I don't like how he draws women, is the level of detail. And this starts to lack a level of detail as it goes on. It also has that two thousands digital coloring machine where, like, the lighting makes no sense and, like, the. The way it appears doesn't read well. So the art was not for me.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: And took away a lot of my experience.

>> Rob: Yeah, I agree. well, I think some of the characters better benefited more from it than others. Like, I actually think the thing looks pretty good, but I think, especially sue, maybe it is a female character issue, because I think sue especially often doesn't really have much detail to her. Yeah, it does seem like he invested a lot of time in the seven. Like, I almost feel like the seven got, even though they're not in all too much of these issues, I think they got.

>> Guido: Well, maybe that's why they're on very few panels. Even on one panel, they're on a tv screen. On one panel, they're on a magazine cover. You really don't get to know them very much. And then the fight with sue, actually, I think, isn't really well drawn. It's pretty hard to follow, I'd say so, yeah. So that took away from it a bit for me, but I like the concept. Now, this is, your first foray into the ultimate universe. So before we move into our last segment, let's talk a little bit about the ultimate universe. Like, I think you said you enjoyed the characters here, the core four. Do you like the sort of reinvention that's happening around them? Obviously here they allude to the triskelion and shield, and Carol Danvers is running it. And so, like, do you like that it's this different world? Did you not like it? What were you thinking about while you read it?

>> Rob: Well, like you said before, that there are so many seeds of the MCU here. That's what I was thinking about, where the MCU basically, in so many ways, took the ultimate concept and put it on screen because we.

>> Guido: In what way? How do you mean that?

>> Rob: Well, by that, I mean basically we took characters, especially like a Spider man or someone like that, who in the comics has had now this long, very convoluted history is married child, and we're going to take him back to the beginning. We're going to make him a high school student. He's going to be in love with MJ M. And were going to go back there just, and even other characters like Iron man, were going to see his origin story introduced there. So I think in many ways they did that. And also they took some key elements of characters, but were not afraid to change them if it made it make more sense with, like, what theyve already created. They werent feeling, you know, slavishly, connected just to the, original context. What do you think?

>> Guido: Yeah, I agree. I think the ultimate universe definitely was the inspiration for the MCU in many ways, not just Samuel L. Jackson and not just Captain America's uniform. There are a lot of ways, I think. Yeah, conceptually, I see what you're saying, that the MCU is kind of an ultimate variation in some ways, and that's true. And I think even tonally, there's some similarities. Structurally, I think there's some similarities, maybe less so in this four issue arc that we read. But definitely overall, I think it's trying to be very cinematic and modern. And this is pre MCU. I mean, even this arc is pre MCU.

>> Rob: So, yeah, the read and sue storyline here, I can definitely see having some kind of MCU elements there where in the original comic, they're a couple. I'm sure they've had many ups and downs throughout their lengthy romance. But here especially, I think you really get that soap opera element of Reid is pining after her. And sue is kind of rejecting him there.

>> Guido: Yeah. And then they more dynamic, although that's in the comics. Totally. So, yeah, that is the fun part of the ultimate universe and the same thing as MCU, which is taking things that we know and sort of twisting them up a little.

>> Rob: Well, let's talk a little bit about the MCU, shall we, with our final segment. M pondering possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted?

>> Guido: Averted. Averted.

>> Rob: So, Guido, what are we talking about for pondering possibilities?

>> Guido: Well, we have seen Salem seven on screen, so we are going to spoil the, first episode.

>> Rob: No, not the first. 2nd.

>> Guido: 2Nd episode. The second episode of Agatha all along. But not a huge spoiler, just the fact that the Salem seven appears. And I'm figuring we're going to see them again because we see them very briefly.

>> Rob: Well, one of them is in the giving main title billing, so she's probably going to see her again.

>> Guido: Yes, I imagine we will. But it'll be fun to talk about also just how they reinvented this team, because in a lot of ways, what all three of our stories did today is take this concept and sort of just run in whatever direction they wanted with it. And I'm going to assume the MCU is going to be the same.

>> Rob: Yeah, I can't imagine that Jack Schaefer was like, okay, salem seven. One's going to be a robot. One's going to be a snake lady.

>> Guido: Right. But I mean, you found something interesting in the credits, which is, as you've mentioned, that one is named Vertigo. So one has the name of the original, team member vertigo and is the actor that's in the main credits to the show.

>> Rob: And she is like a shakespearean actor, a, performance artist. She was just a new exorcist movie. So she's got some serious credits.

>> Guido: But the other six who are credited as snake, crow, Fox, rat, owl and coyote. So they're clearly doing something there. Those six are, are not named in the main credits, right?

>> Rob: No, they're not in the main credits. They were just in, like, the end credits. So I don't think we're gonna see as much from them. And they're also stunt performers as well.

>> Guido: So they might just be for the physicality. We might not actually engage any of them.

>> Rob: It reminds me of what they did also in, like, the black widow movie where you had, like, one or two widows that you actually got to hear from, and then everyone else had names, but they were probably stunned performers.

>> Guido: Yeah. So it's interesting I mean, when we see them in the early part of the season of Agatha, they're wearing black cloaks. We see one of them as a rat in the mall. And that's what sort of signals to Agatha, like, they need to move on. We see one as the coyote in the street. So they're all, I'm assuming, just going to be creatures that can turn into animals or witches that can turn into animals.

>> Rob: Animals. Rats and coyotes and bats. Yeah.

>> Guido: except for Vertigo, who doesn't have an animal to be. And I'm assuming by being in the credits, we're going to meet Vertigo. So it'll be interesting to see what they do with that. Does Vertigo just give people Vertigo as she does to Ben Grimm in her first appearance, or is there more to her power set? And the biggest question, of course, is, are these seven going to be Nicholas Scratch's children now? They are literally. This is not any issue we read, but it's in their next appearance years later. They are actually Nicola Scratch's children. This is not like, I trained this witch and it's my child. No. It's like I had seven different women who I got pregnant. I don't think they're going to go that way. And they each gave birth to these seven creatures.

>> Rob: I think they could do, like, a. Like, they all came from him, but not, like, were his, like, physical children.

>> Guido: Or he gave them. He imbued his power into them. But that would require that we meet Nicolas crutch.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: Which we haven't yet, at least as of this recording.

>> Rob: Unless we have.

>> Guido: No, we haven't.

>> Rob: Well, you know, the whole thing that was making me think how they reinvented the Salem seven and constantly seemed to reinvent the Salem seven really also reminded me of how the MCU has approached Agatha as a character and also some other characters. But, like, the Agatha we see in the MCU is not really the Agatha at all from the comics.

>> Guido: Yeah.

>> Rob: Like, she doesn't have the same personality. She doesn't look the same.

>> Guido: She's not hired to be the governess for Franklin Richards. And I'm assuming we won't ever see Kathryn Hahn be the governess to Franklin Richards, though. It'd be fun. That would be fun in, like, 20 years. Get her back.

>> Rob: But they wanted a witch character. They wanted the character associated with Wanda, so they kind of put them together. So I like that they just kind of created our own character, but they're using the name. And that really approached. Reminds me of the approach that they had in the ultimates. Where, okay, we were going to create our own characters, but we're going to use a pre existing name. And now what they're also doing, again.

>> Guido: For the Salem seven, and Salem seven really lends itself to that because they're that level of character. And this is true, actually, with the other Agatha characters, because you, had pointed out, I was trying not to read about the show that the other witches on the quest, other than Jennifer Kael, who I obviously knew as a character, but the other two are also characters who've shown up for, like, an issue in the Marvel universe. So it just, that sort of creative license is something the MCU has expressed, and I, Salem seven lends itself to that. Take these characters who have a cool name, who don't have a concept anyone cares about. There's, no story we need to be faithful to. Let's just use them as a character. And that's fun because it's the world building we all love so people can go back and read the Salem seven just as we just did, even though it doesn't add anything to the experience of watching the show, it's just fun to be able to go see these characters and see how they changed them. And the same is true for the other witches in Agatha's coven. You could go find their appearances. I'm sure you're not gonna see a roadmap for the show in that, but you'll get to see some echoes of it, and that's what's so cool and what the MCU can do really well.

>> Rob: Yeah, and I think they've done it a few other times. You know, kind of a random example. But one other character, I was thinking is how they approach the Zemo character as well, because you kind of see him in the mask. He's kind of a master manipulator, but he's not really the character from the comics as well. I think they wanted to use that character, like, as jumping off point, but also, like, that's also a character that I would say not a lot of people know from the comics. They're not really super familiar with his backstory, so I think they have the license there that they can play around.

>> Guido: Yeah, I don't think that's the best example, because I think he's a pretty major character in Captain America and Thunderbolts continuity.

>> Rob: Well, they are, yes. But they did change him. They changed him a lot, as opposed to a character, I think, like, if you had, like, the Green Goblin or something who's so tied to a,

>> Guido: Character'S backstory, but no, I think there's probably better examples, and Salem seven are definitely one of them.

>> Rob: That's true. That's true.

>> Guido: So I'm excited to see. I don't think we'll get a huge payoff here. I don't think we'll get. I don't think the Salem Seven will be featured very much. Even the character of Vertigo. I don't think we'll get a whole lot of backstory on them. I think they'll probably just be used as villain devices, which I'm fine with. I'm curious to see.

>> Rob: I'm wondering if they're not going to turn out to be the real villain villains, but actually maybe ultimately a bit more heroic. I don't know. I could see that kind of.

>> Guido: I don't know. Guess we'll find out. So I think that brings us to the end of our journey with Asalem seven. That is a wrap. Dear Watchers, thank you for listening. I've been. What was my name? gita core. Right. Because I don't know, one of those weird names like Brutakus. Giticus.

>> Rob: Yeah. And I was. Now I can't remember.

>> Guido: You're Rob. You wanted to be Rob's, but I said Rob Tillian.

>> Rob: Rob Tillian, exactly. And the reading list is in our show notes. You can follow us on all social media over social media.