Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

>> Rob: Better get your flu shot. There's a bad bug going around. A B humbug, that is. We're talking about a couple of real Scrooges. This week on Dear Watchers, an omniversal comic book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

>> Guido: We are traveling with you on our sleigh ride through the stories and the worlds that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey are me, Guido, Red nosed Guido, or Guito from the island of Mant Toys.

>> Rob: Oh, yes, of course. And me, the person who's parennially on the nice list. Of course it's me, Rob. And now, before we begin our little trip to the North Pole, Gido, what's new in our little section of the multiverse?

>> Guido: Well, we continue to enjoy that new section of the social media multiverse, Blue Sky. So find us on Blue sky at Deer Watchers. And we're posting stuff on there and looking to engage and have actually met some new listeners on Blue sky. So that's very exciting. And our last episode was about Creature Commandos and we timed it to come out right before Creature Commandos started airing. It's been airing and we're not covering it today. We're not going toa spoil anything but three episodes. In any initial reactions, particularly in terms of the context of our episode so far they've focused. This is not a spoiler, but they kind of have focused in on a different character each episode. They're clearly building the team, which is quite fun having just read the first appearances and the different iterations of the team since they're using in the show a different lineup than any of the books that we read. It's neat to see how they're building this version of the team and each character's place on it.

>> Rob: Yeah, that's one of the most interesting thing so far is seeing how they're taking the basic concept of these monsters that are fighting in a Suicide Squad kind of scenario. But they are different characters than the ones that we covered, and there's a few. Like even Rick Flag is kind of a synonymous with the, military character that we covered in the books. But they're not quite the same. So I'll be curious to see if they're maybe going to eventually bring in some of those other legacy characters from the comic book. Knowing James Gunn, I feel like they will. Maybe it won't be till season two, but I think we're going to see Velcro the Vampire at some point.

>> Guido: I wouldn't be surprised if that's this season. The other thing I'll say, and this is not a spoiler at all, but this being. And we talked a lot about this in our third segment of our last episode. This what it means that this is the first official chapter of the new DC universe. There's so many details in this show that are building the world out already. And it's really amazing to me as a comic fan. And again, I won't spoil any of them, but there are some really significant ones. There are places and characters and concepts that exist in this universe already, which means when we get to Superman next summer, I wonder if it's going to play a role. I wonder if these little things that are in the universe are going to be as important as they feel to me as a comic book fan. So very cool stuff.

>> Rob: Yeah. And I think I would just say too, as a fan of the Harley Quinn TV show too, you. I had to kind of separate myself because it's like, oh, I kind of went into Creature Commandos thinking it was going toa be very similar to that, but it is very different. It's just. They're just two animated shows, but one is taking a bit more serious, serialized approach and one, of course, is Heart.

>> Guido: Yeah, and'more action based. I'd say there's a lot of much moreces.

>> Rob: It's.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah. Less the comedy that Harley is. Replace that with action and you've got the same idea going there. And when this episode comes out, within about two weeks, the final episodes of Marvel's what if Animated Series will be out. We'll see if we'renna cover them. There might be some more interesting things happening in this third and final sequence of episodes, and I'll certainly be interested to see how they wrap it all up and what they.

>> Rob: So this will definitely be final. They have said that. Yes.

>> Guido: Correct.

>> Rob: Okay.

>> Guido: Correct. This is the third and final season. They're marketing it as such and they're doing the same release they did last year, one per day for the week between Christmas and New Year'and.

>> Rob: I know animation takes so long to do. I'm wondering, as they've made some of the drastic changes in the live action mcu, if any of that has trickled down to what if? Or that was kind of already mostly done, so it's going to be its own.

>> Guido: I agree. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'll say there was very little in the trailer that excited me. Except, of course, and this is not A spoiler. We don't even watch trailers generally, but I saw this one posted everywhere because Storm is in it. So almost like what I was just saying with Creature Commandos. In theory, the what if animated series is set in the mcu. So it's quite cool that they are introducing Storm. Obviously it's not the same Storm. It's not the Storm we'renna meet. It doesn't mean she's on the horizon, live action this year or anything like that. But it is just so cool that we're going to see an MCU ish version of Storm. So.

>> Rob: And I think we've said many times on this podcast before that she would be the X Men character that would be introduced first. Making that theory for a long time.

>> Guido: Exactly. I said that for two or more years and I was wrong because I thought it would be in Black Panther. But, yeah, maybe I'll had lot.

>> Rob: Click head, lots of clickbait headlines. When. When what if was happening, it was like they cast Storm. And I didn't see that. It was what if? It was like, oh my God, who did they cast a storm. And then it was like, oh, they. It's the animated show. But still exciting.

>> Guido: Maybe she'll debut in Captain Americ new world order in February. Who knows?

>> Rob: Totally.

>> Guido: So, maybe I was right, but just with the wrong movie.

>> Rob: Well, if you are joining us here for the first time, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today. Origins of the story, exploring multiversity and pondering possibilities. So thanks for coming along and please.

>> Guido: Leave a five star review as a nice Christmas Hanukkah end of year gift to us wherever you're listening and find us on social media. And why don't you post at us, mention us. That would be a wonderful gift to end our year.

>> Rob: And with that, dear watchers, welcome to episode 149 and let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travels today's alternate universe. Today we are sliding down the chimney to if we question. We'll get to that in a moment to answer the question, what if Santa Claus and Christmas were saved by Superman and Dr. Doom? What's happening? De Guido?

>> Guido: Merry Christmas. We have a gift for you. So I was looking through our 148 other episodes and I thought for sure we'd covered Santa and Christmas before and it turns out we haven't. So this is goingna be a neat introductory episode and the only thing we've done holiday episodes. We have a Thanksgiving episode we've done end of year episodes, but the closest we came is in 2023. On, F123. We covered the JLQ, the Justice League Queer Christmas party issue. So this is our entry into a whole world. And we've got a lot of background for everyone on this section of superhero comicsuse. It's a good one.

>> Rob: Yeah. Well, speaking of backgrounds, what is your background with Marvel and DC holiday comics? And while we're at it, since he's a essential part of both of these stories, what's your background with Santa Claus?

>> Guido: I don't know which one to start with. I'll start with Santa, I guess, because that one. I don't think there's a human being who doesn't know Santa. I really think that's probably true. No matter your religion, no matter your location, I think there must be some way that Santa showed up in your culture at some point in time. Even if it's a passing mention of that weird thing those other people somewhere else do. I don't know. I just can't imagine anyone escaped Santa. So I celebrate Christmas I have my entire life. And so Santa was always a part of it. I believed in Santa for sure. I have no doubt. I remember the milk and cookies was, like. Felt like the biggest evidence to me. And I think my mother did a really good job changing her handwriting. And so I was really pretty sure for a few years there. I also am not someone who remembers when I stopped believing. That moment was not important to me. I think it probably had to do with the fact that we had a really weird little fireplace like that. I was like, I don't think this is actually happening. And then at some point, obviously, I stopped believing in Santa. And I've never been, like, a Santa fan. I'd say, why don't you share about Santa before we go into the comics side?

>> Rob: Well, yes, I also grew up with Santa Claus being a big part of my life. The milk and cookies, I think, were also one of the big things. And I think that was something even after I stopped leaving in Santa. And I think we've even done it together. Like, I've left out milk and cookies. It's just a nice holiday tradition as well. We can eat them, but kind of feel part of it. One of the things that my parents did to. Well, I think it was my parents, who knows, was to also tie in Santa's friend Rudolph. They would actually. And I don't know, maybe this was like, lipstick. They actually put a little red dot on my pillow and it was Rudolph came in and gave me a kiss during the night and left this little dot with his.

>> Guido: No, he never told me that. There'something really fun and creepy about that.

>> Rob: I don't know why his knows had to residue. And also I can't imagine. I can't believe I wouldn't have woken up during this. But they would. They did this several years on my pillow in the night as evidence. But also my love of world building as well I always liked. Even as I got older and kind of the Santa fantasy started to dissipate a bit. I did love coming up with ideas around Santa. I love the Tim Allen Santa Claus movie where his body kind of shapes into the chimney because I didn't have fireplace growing up. So I was always like, how does he get in? But like his body can shape into other things. And then in my head he was like, well m. Maybe he has like a little pocket watch and he can like stop time or slow time like that. So I would like draw Santa and I would draw him with like these little tools to help him do his, his missions around the world. So it was very much a part of I think I even went to church and someone would be ringing bells outside. There was a lot of a work that went into making the whole Santa experience happen growing up.

>> Guido: So Santa was always a superhero to you?

>> Rob: Very much. And well, speaking of superheroes, so how, what's your intro into the Marvel and DC holiday comics?

>> Guido: I. I've always loved these. I've always loved them. I don't know why actually. I m. I don't even know why I still do. I think there's something inherently kitschy about them. There might also be something on like the more serious side, akin to what you're saying about your love of Santa, where it was kind of a mashup. Right. Like it's a built in crossover. It's this character that I know from outside of comics being put into comics. So I think it maybe that aspect of it fascinated me. But they tend to be really campy and silly and fun. And so I've always been a fan of these specials. They're also obviously I realize this as an adult but like they're good, training grounds for new creators and talent. That's generally how they've been used. Or they're good anthology stories that were like cut or just were an idea from a creator. So I've always enjoyed them a lot and collected them and still do. How about you? Were these a part of your Comic book collecting, childhood.

>> Rob: They were not. Actually, I did not really read these, maybe because I was not as much of an every weak comic buyer as you, where I was like, buying characters that I liked and reading a couple of ongoing series. So maybe these kind of holiday specials escaped me in that way. My holiday specials and one I know that both of us share were like the he man and Shir Ra holiday special and like the special cartoonsuff.

>> Guido: Everything on TV for that were outside.

>> Rob: Of the comics world. But I love the holiday special in any form or something that you and I still love is like a sitcom holiday episode. Like those. I just have such resonant memories of when I was even a little kid. But rather so not in comics, but in. In other forms.

>> Guido: Well, there's a good amount of single issues that cover holidays in comics, but not as many as you'd think, probably because in part what you're saying, like, they're serialized, so they don't want to take place in real time. And also publishing schedules could get out of whack. So I think that's why for a long time, even though there are single issues here and there, these holiday specials were really where they put all of this. This content, and we're gonna give a whole bit of background on that.

>> Rob: Yeah. So let us dive into that big old bag of toys with Origins of the Story.

>> Guido: Right now, on this very show, you're.

>> Rob: Gonna get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago.

>> Guido: So we're gonna give a history of those holiday comics and the specials. Not an exhaustive one, but a brief one. But we are going to start with a history of Santa in Marvel and dc. So kick us off.

>> Rob: And, I should mention, well, no one can see this but you. I'm actually wearing a Santa hat right now.

>> Guido: You are wearing a Sant hat in my room.

>> Rob: I'm fully in the festive fantasy right now, but the history of Santa Claus in dc. So this is, as you said, a very brief history of one that people truly could write a book about. And that would be a great book. I'd love to read like, a book about.

>> Guido: We Santa, we have books sitting downstairs. We have a book about all the animated holiday specials on tv, but no one's stolen for comics.

>> Rob: H m. Not yet. Well, Santa debuted in Superman's Christmas Adventure standalone issue from 1940. The character has had dozens of appearances in DC, but this month, February 1947, he is in Batman and Action Comics and Captain Marvel Jr, meaning the one we're Reading today. Yes. And prior to this in 1945 he was on the very famous cover of Batman #27 but not in the issue itself.

>> Guido: And famous made even more famous by comic book Gobbles counseling podcast who used that image as their card. Elliot redrew them in that very famous image of Batman, Robin and Santa.

>> Rob: Yeah. And that might be his first in universe book appearance. Except that of before mentioned one shot.

>> Guido: The one that we cover today.

>> Rob: Oh, the one that. Yes. Yeah. Not the COVID Not the COVID after this D.C. prince Rudolphs s and specials with him. And he shows up in many titles over the years including getting murdered in 1973 and the Justice League has to investigate. But it appears this might be the first appearance featured appearance in a story. And of course what we read today.

>> Guido: I doesn't need to keep clarifying because it's not quite clear everything you're saying.

>> Rob: And of course after this there's dozens appearances that bring us right up to right now where he is in a second in universe miniseries as a warrior of the character in Batman. Santa Clau. Silent Night.

>> Guido: Yeah. So that's a really fun series that we will cover one day. It's not actually an elseorld kind of. It makes more Santa in the universe and there's a sequel going on right now.

>> Rob: Well what about his over in Marvel? Yeah, in Marvel.

>> Guido: So Santa starts appearing in Atlas Comics pre Marvel in the 1950s in Strange Tales and Journey into Unknown Worlds. But we don't quite count those as 616 superhero. It appears that it's 1979s Howard the Duck that first puts him into the superheroic 616 universe. So a whole lot later than DC. It's Spider man in 1986. That might then be his first real superhero appearance. If you don't you know how the duck is slapstick and comedic and always is a little fourth wall breaking. And that's a very famous cover of Santa holding a gun. it's an imposter. But still then Santa shows up in she Hulk and is in the holiday specials at Marvel that we'll get into in just a moment as well as some other solo titles for another only really a couple dozen appearances over the 50 years. We're talking about probably less than DC since they got started a little earlier.

>> Rob: M and my old buddy Rudolph might have made his first appearance in the second book we're talking about today all the way in 1990. That's the. That's the earliest I could find him. But that is a Copywritting character. So maybe they treaded carefully.

>> Guido: Yeah, they want to stay away. I think that's probably true. So let's talk. Even though today's issues are not holiday specials, I figure we should briefly give some background because these are really fun books and they relate a lot to what we're talking about today. Of course.

>> Rob: So over at DC, DC's holiday specials, meaning it, issued dedicated to a holiday, are fun and started mainly as offering reprints, but now are an original staple, even broadening to Easter and other holidays. And I would throw pr.

>> Guido: I think they pride into there too.

>> Rob: Right. Like Pride is a holiday special.

>> Guido: Yeah, I guess. And yeah, sure, it might be limited.

>> Rob: Collector editions'number 34 in 1975 that has the first Christmas special with superheroes. Prior to that, there were Christmas specials, but mainly Santa and Rudolph stories. Then we have a handful in the 1970s and 1980s, late 80s, 1990s get gets subtitles like Lobo Paramilitary Christmas Special.

>> Guido: One day we'll cover that.

>> Rob: Or also our favorite, Alvira's House of Mystery Christmas Special. And now from D.C. holiday special to the clever names like New Year's Evil also. Yeah, that was horror movie as well. And tis the season two Be Freezin or this year's Batman Smells and Robin Laid an Egg. They are now, of course, an official staple.

>> Guido: Yeah, this year's title is so perfect. I love that they do such a good job with these. And it's really fun that they've become more prevalent again because of, like, what I said earlier. They're good anthologies, they're good proving grounds for new creators, and they're just fun little bits and bobs.

>> Rob: And Mark Hamill gets to sing that g. Oh, I was going to say Mark Hamill does get to sing that famous Batman song in an episode of Bat the Animated Series too. So they'been tying that in for a while.

>> Guido: Someone, there must be a good history of that song somewhere.

>> Rob: That's true.

>> Guido: O.B.

>> Rob: Not a book. That one's not a book. Maybe that's an online essay.

>> Guido: That's a Wikipedia entry. Yeah. So over at Marvel, though, the holidays do show up in books. But there was not a special until well after DCs. It looks like they were much further behind. And the first holiday Special is probably 1991's Marvel Holiday Special, which is famous for making Santa Claus a mutant in the Marvel Universe. And of course, featuring an anthology of fun stories. There are contemporary to that early 90s seasonal superhero specials, Fall, winter, spring, summer. But they don't hit on the holidays. Then in the real peak of the 90s, you get some subtitles like the Generation X Holiday Special, Power Pack, Holiday Special, Punisher Holiday Special. Because nothing says Christmas cheer like Punisher. And there are some weird licensed ones like the ALF Holiday Special and the Hellraiser Christmas Special published by Marvel Comics. Yes, hellraiser. Clive Barker'hellraiser so all of that is coming out in the 90s before they die out for a little bit at Marvel. There's a 2000s revival. The holiday Special becomes annual for a while. Skip some years they tried digital stuff before making a comeback and now it's pretty much a consistent staple. Sometimes it'll be like the Mery X Men Special was what they did a few years back or they'll dedicate it to a character or something. But now I think they have also joined the annual bandwagon.

>> Rob: My question for you Guido, is why now of course we know DC is a much older company than Marvel, but even then Marvel it was introducing Santa and Holiday Special so much later than dc. I have a theory to this, but I'd love to hear what is your thought around why Marvel was so late to the game and doing Santa and holiday related issues?

>> Guido: I don't know the answer to that question. I'm curious what your theory is because they are. The irony of course is that they're more. Maybe this is the reason they're more set in the real world. So there's a famous like X Men that's a ah, kind of a Christmas issue where they'reus, they're walking through Rockefeller center. There's Santa's in it. Of course it's not the Santa Claus that's in the 1970s. So you have the presence of these things because you have people trying to write in reality and for a time you have like Claremont trying to write in real time. But I don't know otherwise. Unless that's the, the same reasoning. What is your theory?

>> Rob: That's in line with my theory as well. I was also just going to say that DC, it seemed to me at, in the 60s and 70s had also a reputation of being the sillier comics while Marvel was trying to be quote unquote more serious in like the stories that they were telling. And of course when you mentioned Claremont, like those Claremont X Men stories were.

>> Guido: For the most part for adults.

>> Rob: They were written for adults. So I do think it was like DC was seen as a little bit more kitty and then thus like you could do a, the story much easier than you could do with Marvel. So I think, yeah, the seriousness and also the real worldness, as you're saying, I think was one of the things that was kind of preventing Marvel from jumping in there.

>> Guido: Well, especially if you look at the 1940s when the D.C. starting, like there, those comics are squarely aimed at kids, and so I think that is always present in theirs. The other thing with Marvel 2 might be the fact, even if you look at Santa's debut in that Marvel holiday special, they were trying to always have a connected world, a, connected universe. And so it might have been harder to figure out how to do that. Whereas DC didn't always care. DC was doing tons of what at the time were called imaginary stories. Now we would call Elseworlds, where they just didn't care if it was in or out of continuity, particularly in the Silver Age. So that could be another reason why Marvel took so long to get to it.

>> Rob: Well, you mentioned silly stories from the 1940s, and I think we have one coming up right now. So let's explore some multiversity.

>> Guido: I am your guy through these vast new realities.

>> Rob: Follow me and ponder the question, what if? And first up today is Action Comics Volume 1, issue number 105, from February 1947. This is entitled the man who Hated Christmas.

>> Guido: Yes. So this is written by Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster. I'm not clear why the online credits are different, though, but it is credited to Jerry and Joe, the, of course, creators of our main character, Superman, penciled by John Saella, who does the inks and edited by Jack Schiff. Might be some of those weird golden age things, but that is, it is credited only, of course, in the book. Most credit. Most credits were left out of the book. However, this one being Superman, it is credited to Jerry and Joe, no one else. Why do we read this? Because it's an early. It's not, as I. As you said, in the history. It's not the first Superman. It's kind of the first in book Superman. Other than that one shot. I mean, Santa Claus, not Superman. Santa. but it is also a hoot of a tale.

>> Rob: Yes. Well, we'll give you a little. A little summary here, which is businessman Jasper Rasper. Yes, you heard that right. Jaspersp. Raspper hates Christmas, so he decides to put a stop to it for everyone. He travels to the North Pole and gives Santa and his reindeer a box of chocolates that causes Santa to gain an immense amount of weight instantly and for his reindeer to pass out. Santa is distressed. He can't Fit down the chimneys. But Superman is here to help with a rapid and unconventional weight loss routine that includes running across the Golden Gate bridge, sweating from being too close to a volcano, and getting the weight scared off of him. Question question mark. While getting into it. Restored to his proper weight, Superman carries Santa sle himself. And when they encounter a stranded Jasper rasper, they save him. And Jasper now sees, of course, the true meaning of Christmas.

>> Guido: Yeah. So a little Ebenezer Scrooge influence for sure. Because also Jasper is someone who works for, who he's not paying and all of that. So I think from the first page, which is a splash page that has nothing to do with the story, but let me describe it. It is a giant wreath with, like, a very Charles Dickens intro to the tit. The story titled the man whoated at Christmas. As you said, Superman is helping Santa down the chimney with his toys. and Jasper's in a helicopter, literally shooting a gun at Superman, who was being struck by a bullet while helping Santa. So from that splash page, this book is a delight from then on. And you and I, I think both loved reading this book.

>> Rob: Yeah. When we were just flipping through, it's like, okay, it's got a helicopter, it's got a volcano. It's got everything you want from like a 1940s Superman story.

>> Guido: The language. One of my favorite moments is Jasper going, first of all, he's starting with, ha ha. No Santa Claus circling the globe, no gifts. This year, Christmas will be a flop. Aoo. That is actually what is written on the page. Christmas will be a flopperoo. So this book just hits at every moment. I love it.

>> Rob: Of the moment that really got it for me is when we first see Santa in the north pole and he's training for the big nightight and he's got an obstacle cor set up of chimneys, and he's like jumping ono each chimney. And that's like how he's training. And later, when we see that he's gained all this weight, like, he can't even, like, get up on the one chimney. And it's like, oh, my gosh. who would have thought? Even in my little kid, like, world building trying to think of what Santa was doing, that he's also like, has to train every year for jumping up on.

>> Guido: He has to practice different size and shaped chimneys and going down them all year. That's what he's doing.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: It's wild. And then to get to the real crux of the plot here, I mean, you didn't even list Everything about this weight loss routine. Because when Superman first realizes Jasper's plot and Santa discovers he's too big, he tries to, like, shiatsu massage the weight off of him. He literally is, like, vibrating his back, trying to get the weight to, like, shake off of him. Which is so funny, because we know, like, I could only think in all of this about some of the absurd 40s and 50s probably through to, like, 80s infomercials, products that peopleh y to lose weight. And I'm thinking of there's, like, that elastic band you wore around your stomach that was vibr. That would vibrate with the idea that that was gonna, like, you know, move your body enough that the fat's gonna go away. So it's like Superman's trying that. Like, it's just so bonkers, the stuff he's trying.

>> Rob: And then the big thing that he keeps saying, he says it, like, three times. And I think both of us, probably when we first saw it, it was like, oh, maybe this got lost in the translation of many decades. But then, no, no, he says it many times, is that he's going to be scaring the pounds off of him. Like, the other stuff makes sense. Okay. He's running on the bridge. He'snna be sweating him. He's doing the massage. But there's several times where he's, like, gonna. He's like, oh, that should have scared a few pounds.

>> Guido: He, like, grabs his ankle while he's, like, floating over ice to make him think. To make Santa think he's gonna fall in the water. And he's like, ha. Like, I scared you. Now you lost some weight. And then, like, a meteor is passing by, and he brings Santa up to the meteor so that it'll scare him and get the final few pounds off. Like, I. That one felt like they really believed that one would work. Obviously, they didn't believe the shaking the weight off would work because Superman fails to have that be, a tool they could use. But the fear actually works in this story for some reason.

>> Rob: Yeah. And the other thing that really stood out to me is that. And I don't know if this is true of this Superman in this era, but Superman also seemed to be kind of a jerk throughout. Like, there he's trying to get Santa to lose the weight. In one point, like, Santa's, like, looking at himself was like, oh, I've lost all this weight already. And Superman is like, stop admiring yourself. And then my other favorite part is. And this is so forties is they encountered, like, a jitterbug competition with like.

>> Guido: These two, like cute off real quick.

>> Rob: Y. Yeah. The women are like, ooh, Superman, you've got so much. Such great muscles.

>> Guido: And then, well, they think he's in a costume.

>> Rob: They think he's in a costume.

>> Guido: Yeah, they think it's someone else.

>> Rob: And then he gets Santa to do the jitterbug. And Santa is like, please, Superman, let me have just one malted. Of course, what's also more 40s than like a malted? And Superman is like, no, but Superman himself is drinking a malted while he's telling Santa that he can't.

>> Guido: Man's got super metabolism. Apparently's true. And like to create body dysmorphic issues for everyone.

>> Rob: Well, when your friends'trying to like lose weight, you shouldn't be having like a, you know, a chocolate beverage right in front of.

>> Guido: Well, there. And there's yet another moment of Superman being a jerk because Santa is like, oh, I lost so much weight already. Can we just let it go? And he's like, no, we've got to keep doing this. He just wants to torture Santa. I think a little bit.

>> Rob: Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of that. Yeah. So very fun and very, you know, it's a quick read and yeah, 14 page story.

>> Guido: Yeah. Classic Silver age art. And yeah, just a real hoot. It's really fun.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: I highly recommend this story. So let's move from then to 45 years later and we're moving on from.

>> Rob: Jasper Rasper, a character I don't think had any more appearances, to a character who's had a lot of appearances. This is what the Volume 1, Issue 10, aka the what? The X Men Special XS Special, Not X Men Special X Special. This is from January 1991 and it's called I'll be Doom for Christmas, which doesn't quite. Doesn't quite make be doom for Chris.

>> Guido: You can kind of see it. Not that everyone needed to hear me sing because that's not. That's not always a good thing for people. But this is written by Marvel Comics at the times, especially Superstar of Scott, Loved Dell, penciled by also Marvel and X Men superstar She Hulk, Superstar John Byrne, who does his own inks, colored by Daniel Vaso, lettered by Jade Mode and edited by Craig Anderson with Renee Witter Stodter. What the real quick, just because it's a little more of an unusual title choice, we have covered what the before. In fact, we covered what the. back in episode number 97 when we were looking at some different Marvel DC crossovers. Because what the was a parody book. I loved Whata. It was one of my favorite books when it was coming out. It only lasted 26 issues, but it is just, just wacky. It's like everything you want from a parody book. It's like as if Mad or Cracked did a Marvel book. But it has real comic stories. It has a lot of like, throwaway panels and pages, like humor and gag joke panels and stuff. But it has actual stories, including this one that we read. What happened in the one that we read?

>> Rob: Well, Doom is alone on Christmas, as usual, when Santa gets injured in one of Dr. Doom's traps. So Victor has to become Santa Doom and deliver the presents in exchange for Santa granting his heart's desire. That Dec. 24 trip includes visits to the Avengers and the Fantastic Four. But the superheroes figure Doom is up to no good and battle him. But then a group of orphans stand by Santa and convince everyone to come together. A few weeks later, Santa is healed and will give Doom anything that he wants. But the Monarch brushes him off. Doom already has gotten what he wants. A teddy bear. Oh, and by the way, the whole story is told in rhyme.

>> Guido: Yeah. So it starts with was the night before Christmas, but it's a little bit more of a Grinch story. For sure. It's like definitely lifting from the Grinch. The orphan looks like Sally.

>> Rob: Like a who Who.

>> Guido: but I'll say just like the Superman from the. It's not the first page, but from the second page when you have Santa literally in a vice with his head about.

>> Rob: Like a bear trap. Yeah.

>> Guido: And he says like. And Dr. Doom says, St. Nick, what are you doing here? And he says, it's my job, Dr. Doom, one evening a year. Now, instead of being naughty, would you mind being nice? You can start by prying my head from this vice from that moment on. Again, I love this story. It's fun. It's not quite as wacky, of course, as the Superman, but it is having a lot of fun because Doom even dresses up to become Santa Doom and really leans into it. I think he calls himself the new monarch of Christmas. Like, it's just a fun, silly tale. And one thing you left out of your summary is like, the what the plot sort of hinges upon, which is that the Avengers have gotten all of the villains presence. So when he goes to the Avengers mansion, he discovers that they've gotten like Kang and Imortis and Ultron and all these presents, and he's like, oh, wait, like, I didn't realize we could exchange Gifts. And so he goes to the Fantastic Four to give them gifts. And that's when they attack him, being confused by what's happening. And then the orphans come, and they have to pretend they're united. And it warms Doom's heart. And he hides a tear behind his metal, mask at one point. So it's really fun the way it's bringing in, like, the Grinch and creating this little tail.

>> Rob: Did youj I was also thinking when I saw that one panel that Kang has got quite the racket. He could just get a present for each of his Personas because he's got one for a mortis, too.

>> Guido: Maybe that's part of the joke on that panel.

>> Rob: You the ra tut there as well. It'like oh, these are all for he people. Believe me, it's true.

>> Guido: Well, and I love that. Ultron's gift, did you notice, is a funnel. So I guess that's like a little bit of a Tin man tumor.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: Yeah.

>> Rob: Well, it's funny that you say, and maybe this was their intention. It's like, it's funny when you read these back to back, because obviously, I don't think the one. I don't think the Superman was intending to be as ridiculous as it.

>> Guido: Oh, I think it was. I mean, even though I think there were, it was more akin to the storytelling of the 40s. I don't think adult people writing these comics were thinking, oh, I'm telling this serious story. Like, I think they knew what they were doing, but they're still sometimes like that. Eighty years later, adults would be reading it and laughing at the gag.

>> Rob: That's true. That might be true, but they're still on a podcast. What's a podcast? But there's still something. So sometimes, like, the sincerity of doing something for real is even funnier than trying to be funny, if you know what I mean. Like, I like the Doom story a lot, but sometimes it's like you just't. You can't replicate something that just is gonna come naturally, like, out of this story.

>> Guido: Well, where some of the humor comes in Doom, since it is more a straightforward story. I get what you're saying. A straightforward parody. I get what you're saying is, like, in the rhyming, even.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: So you get a lot. Like, even when he confronts the heroes and they're like, give it up, Doom. Don't make us get rough. And he's like, I've tried to be good, but enough is enough. Like, you can hear the Grinch. Total rhythm. in reading it and so that makes it fun and silly. And there is one. Go ahead.

>> Rob: I was reading it and then I had to actually like stop and pause and go. I don't think I'm reading it correctly because you have to read it in that very specific Twas the Night Before Christmas Grinch who Stole Christmas cadence, which is not like, you just have. You have to like, okay, there's a natural rhythm here that they're. I kind of think they know that the reader must be aware of. So I had to like, go back and like, okay, wait, I'm not reading this correctly. Let me get into that very specific way of reading this.

>> Guido: Yeah. Because it's just written as like speech bubbles with no interruption. They didn't write it out like in verse. And so you do. You do have to get into it, which is fun. And one connection to the action comics, I think is the chimney scene with Doom I love because he is trying to go down the chimney. But not only is it that he. He says he should have learned some of St. Nick's size tricks, which is of course like you as a child thinking, how does he actually get to Timmy M. But also he's a giant metal like robot armor. So he breaks the chimney as he's going down it.

>> Rob: Ye.

>> Guido: That's fun. Silly thing. So, yeah, I thought this was fun and silly. And of course, John Byns art is very classic 80s, this is early 90s, but 80s style, Marvel House style. And so it's fun. Fun to look at and fun to imagine Santa Doom making another appearance. I like that he threatens Santa at the end too. And he's like, next time we meet, we're gonn. You're gonna be my foe. And Santa has to be like, I'm not a super villain.

>> Rob: There's something about Doom. And we've talked about this in the past in some of the other things where he goes to like King Arthur's time as well and stuff like that. There's something about Doom where I guess it's the grandiosity of the character and the fact that he's a monarch that he works well to put in these kind of ridiculous situations because we love to see that character being taken down a peg because he's so lofty in.

>> Guido: That way and so serious and all of that. That yeah, it' it is fun to see him like that. Yeah. In that way. I think he's kind of, again, a good Ebenezer Scrooge. He's kind of the Jasper Rasper of this issue, I guess. Yes.

>> Rob: Bring Back Jasper Rasper. He's gonna be the star of.

>> Guido: I don't think we looked it up, though. I don't think we looked it up. Maybe Jasper Raspper was a recurring Superman character. Who knows? We did not look that up. So I don't think we can say that with certainty that Jasper made this one appearance. So I think we're putting a pin in those two tails. There are countless other Santa Claus ones that we might visit again in the future. But let's get to our third segment.

>> Rob: Yes. Before Santa arrives. It's just enough time to ponder some possibilities. Will the future you describe be avertederttederted? So, Guido, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?

>> Guido: Let's talk about when Santa will debut in the MCU u hu. So we're not talking that much because as mentioned in our background, there are dozens of Santa and Christmas issues. So it's not like we're going to trace the future of Santa. And I guess we could talk in all seriousness where we want to see Santa. But I think with that, whether it's serious or fun, the question would be what superhero or supervillain do you want to see with Santa Claus? So start us off.

>> Rob: Well, the first thing that came to mind actually was, oh, it makes so much sense. Toys collecting the Collector and Santa. But then I saw that they actually did a Lego Marvel movie just a couple years ago or like a 45 minute special in which the Collector collects Santa.

>> Guido: So someone had that idea.

>> Rob: Someone else had that idea. It has been done. So then the other thing that came to mind, and now this is not a comic book super villain, though he has been in comics. But a character I think I would love to see Tussle with Santa Claus is Freddy Krueger.

>> Guido: And, that's a weird one. Well, is well suited to a comic though. But yes.

>> Rob: Well, for one thing, Freddy is wearing a red and green sweater, so he's already in Christmas world. But then the other idea is that Freddy with the dream powers, like he can make anything come to life. And there's a lot of stuff that he does in the movies that is toy related, like turning someone into a marionette and that kind of thing. So I think, like, it would be fun. Like, oh, Santa has magic and Freddy has magic. And you also kind of, what do you do on Christmas Eve? Like you have to go to sleep, right? Like, Santa won't come unless you're sleeping. But if you're sleeping, Freddy also comes. So I think there's a lot of things that they could kind of do.

>> Guido: Interesting bring characters together. Like they're working in antagonism to each other.

>> Rob: Exactly. Because like. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. We haven't seen Freddy in a while. Everyone wants Freddy to come back and this would be like a very fun one off. They could have done it on the old Fredy's Nightmares like TV show. Like this would have been a good one off. Epise.

>> Guido: Well, they did though have that like Ash versus Jason versus Freddy comic book. So clearly new line who owns Freddy is open to silly and non canonical storytelling. So it is a wonder why, you know there's such. You and I both love horror Christmas horror a lot. And it's definitely been building exponentially over the last decade. I mean the fandom, and the amount of movies churned out every year from huge Hollywood. Like I'd even call whatever that Chris Evans one that looked just not interesting to me. I'd call that kind of borderline horror. Anytime you're putting Santa in like an action thriller or something. And yeah, there's just so many from big budget to indie and all this. So it's a wonder you haven't seen some of the big franchises try to capitalize on that. And comics would actually be the best place to do it because yeah, there's not going to be a Freddy Krueger Santa Claus movie anytime soon certainly. But do a one shot comic. I bet it would sell amazing. Same thing with Jason with anyone like that.

>> Rob: Yeah, I mean I haven't seen it but of course the new kind of emerging franchise terrifier 3 just did a, that was a Christmas set movie and kind of branching it off to there. So maybe that will kind of help spark some of these other things happening as well. And I think there's, there's actually someone, someone countered them up and there's more horror movie set at Christmas than there are horror movies set at Halloween. So it really is like, I mean.

>> Guido: I believe that yeah, there's actually not that many Halloween. But anyway, so yeah, I like that idea for me. So I was, I could only think about this seriously in part I guess because there was like already fun, fun mashups. He's met the X Men, he's met like every character. But especially thinking of this Batman, Santa Claus, Silent Night series which I like a lot. I like when they're trying to do something real. The two characters I thought of are Phoenix. And I think the only reason she's coming to mind is because they've called Santa Claus the Most powerful mutant in the Marvel universe, I guess, because if you take this concept of Santa, he can be everywhere, he can acquire everything. Like he's somewhat omnipotent. So I'm, I'm thinking algh, well put him up against Phoenix then. Like I want like a, a, verss going on there. Santa Claus versus Phoenix. Don't know how it happens, but. And then the only other character, not surprised. These are my two favorite characters, Jean and Rogue. I was thinking Rogue would be interesting because Santa's been established as a mutant like Rogue taking his powers. What are they? Like, what are. It would force some of the questions you were talking about you liked to think about as a kid. Like, like how exactly does he do what he does? It's one thing just to say he's omnipotent, but what does that actually mean? Is he bending reality? Is he stopping time like you said you used to think about? So I think Rogue, like taking his powers would force that limiting or that force that recognition of what are his powers. So those are my.

>> Rob: I like that. And I was trying to think like some of the other characters that could, I could see them playing well is like I could definitely see in like a Phoenix story, like an Emma Frost. Like, well, she's got Frost in the name. She's wearing all white and like she's got that sarcastic personality that I think would play well as like comic relief in a story.

>> Guido: Like as the Grinch.

>> Rob: Exactly. Or in the Rogue one. Like a Mystique kind of character or someone like that who's also going toa be kind of looking down on everything Christmas related. Probably.

>> Guido: Yeah. So, yeah, basically, anything with X Men, I'm there for it. But in this case I think that could work.

>> Rob: Do you think like, I mean we got like, what if the TV show had had the Christmas episode, but do you think like we'll see maybe on like. And of course they also did the Guardians of the Galaxy one. So they've done it. I wonder if we'll see like an all out like Christmas special again from Marvel or. Or on dc.

>> Guido: Yeah, I don't know. I guess they do them. you and I saw, but have never seen. But in researching for this, like we saw that that Merry Batman came out last year. They do them in the world of kids. Obviously you mentioned the, the Lego special that had come out. So they kind of do animated specials that way. I don't think we'll ever see one that is also, I guess the Guardians was the closest we'd get to one also aimed at adults. And it was explicitly Christmas. It wasn't like this in some stand in holiday. It was, it was explicitly Christmas. So I guess that's a really good example of it. But I don't think it's go goingna be a very frequent occurrence in part again because it just the same thing we were saying with the comics. Like it forces you to reckon with a timeline. It forces you to deal with like reality a little differently. And so I think it's probably better off in the animated kids fantasy stuff. But I'd love to see like the Heman and Sheerr Christmas special. Why not do an X Men animated Christmas special?

>> Rob: Oh, that would be so much fun. Yeah.

>> Guido: Whether it's the X Men 97 or whether it's just something totally original like who cares? Just do it. So fingers crossed. But I'm not, not holding my breath. All right, well, well, Merry Christmas, Tall and to all a good night. That is a wrap. Dear Watchers, thank you for listening. I've been guido the red nosed Dear.

>> Rob: Oersress host and I have been preennly nice guy Rob.

>> Guido: The reading list is in the show notes. You can follow us online ah at dear watchers deerwatchers.com and leave us.

>> Rob: A five star review. Wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.

>> Guido: Keep pondering the possibilities.