Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Welcome to Dear Watchers, a comic Book Omniperse podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

We are traveling through the storylines before and after that inspired or took inspiration from this week's amazing alternate universe. And your watchers on this journey are.

Me Guido and Me Rob, attorney at law. Not really.

I thought maybe you were going to just go with sensational. That would have been the easiest.

I'm not more of a savage.

It's true. Okay. I'll be sensational. Guido today. You can be savage. Rob today.

Mhm. Yes. That's my savage noise.

And my sensational is just my default.

Yeah, exactly. You're just going to stop and uh uh.

The audience is laughing at me.

They agree. It's almost like we're in a fourth wall breaking sitcom, right?

Um oh my gosh. I didn't even think about the fact that using a sound effect was doing that. But yes, that works perfectly because we're obviously going to be talking about chihulk in just a few minutes.

Obviously. But before we do that guitar, what's new in our little section of The Omniverse?

There's a lot new. Our last week's episode has been great to see the responses to our conversation with Joey Vasquez from Midtown Comics about the industry and about the role local comic stores plays. So if people haven't listened to last week, go back and listen about the back issue market and community in the LCS. Lots of fun doing that.

So many questions for Joey that we didn't even get to about the comic book market. I'm just fascinated. I think it's such a unique time. So I can't wait for him to come back to the show so we can pester him some more with some more questions.

I'm sure that'll happen. We have a coming interview next week, which is so exciting. Really so exciting. I can't wait for listeners to hear it. It's our first time with a comic scholar, so more on that in our next episode. And then this week, if you're listening to this, The Week It Comes Out, we come out on Monday and we are going to be able to be heard on Wednesday. Where can people hear us on Wednesday.

While they can hear us? On the fabulous Spectacles podcast with Jake and Jesus. A wonderful podcast that I often hear you listening to while you are in your catacombs of comics up in our attic.

Yeah. Love, Jake and Jesus. They were on our anniversary episode back in July. We've been longtime friends and we are now guests on there. So you can go. Here our picks, our speculation, our grail tales. Lots of good stuff on there. So Wednesday the week that this is coming out. Uh, this episode is out. Go listen. And we're working on some other secret stuff you and I have been recording, and that's really fun. And so we're going to have a lot more information in the coming weeks about bonus series and things that we are getting ready to announce.

Yeah. Would you say that we'll be sharing more information soon? That's a hint.

I don't know what that means, but okay.

More information. Play on words.

Okay, let's keep going.

There's a lot going on. So while we jump into this week's episode, if you're joining us for the first time, after a quick summary of our alternate Earth we are visiting. We have origins of the story, where we are, what inspired this other reality. Exploring multiversity, we dive deeper into our alternate universe and pondering possibilities. We examine the impact and what's followed or coming in the future. Uh, thank you. Thank you. So calm down. Calm down. I got to finish the intro. And with that dear Watchers, welcome to episode 59, and let's check out what's happening in the multiverse with today's alternate universe. And today, we are asking the question everyone's wanted to know. What if she Hulk from Earth 721 took a holiday in the Marvel Universe, aka six one six, and had sex with Juggernaut? Or I guess, what if she Hulk kind of had sex with Juggernaut, but not really, but also yes. Lot going on here.

Lot going on here. Yeah. Quite a question that we have, because we are doing something a little different today. For those who've listened to us, we are using our same structure, our same format, our same presentation to the Council of Watchers, but we're doing it with a character from an alternate universe. Normally, we've looked at a story in an alternate universe or an entire alternate universe, but now we are taking a character from an alternate universe, and I'll explain why right now.

It's like our podcast has been infused with a dose of gamma radiation. It's kind of the same, but also different at the same time. Thank you.

So we are going to be exploring primarily Earth Six one Six, but with the SheHulk, the Jennifer Walters of Earth 721. In the Marvel Universe, this was also known for quite some time as Earth A. Earth a really quite simple.

And I was confused reading this, too, because I would think Earth A would be our primary Earth, but it's not really our primary Earth.

It's not. It's true. We are Earth B. So a Brief History of Earth a Earth a debut in Fantastic Four, number 118 in So. It is among the, um, earlier versions of the multiverse in Marvel Comics. There are some stuff in the 60s for sure. Numbers don't yet show up. Numbers don't show up for quite some time. But this Earth A is one of the earlier incarnations, and it debuts in 118 and then has a three issue arc in 161 61, 162 of Fantastic Four on this Earth. Reed and Ben are the only two who went out into space. Reed becomes The Thing and therefore lives in seclusion because he's the grotesque monster of the Thing, and he lives on an island where he develops androids and robots that reenact different movies. So there's like Frankenstein robots and cowboy robots and it's all very strange.

It's a very west world, basically.

It is very west world. It was probably inspired by Westworld. Was that out yet in 72? Probably the book was at least the book maybe.

I'm not quite sure. Yeah, probably around the same time, though.

Yeah, it's a strange, strange place. Lockjaw takes our bed, Grim, to this Earth by accident. And then that's also how the second story follows up. All right, having said that, that's Earth 721, but we're not really going to pay too much attention to that Earth. We're more interested in Jennifer Walters from Earth 721. So fast forward to and we're going to go more in depth in this, in the issues we cover. But fast forward to Xmen. We got a two issues Xmen Arc, where she Hulk is defending Juggernaut in the trial of Juggernaut. And they sleep together, they have sex. That's it. That happens. Joke or not, joins the Xmen, moving on. And then a few years later, we get to SheHulk. We have some jokes in Dancelot's Run, where Doc Samson, who is Jen Walters seah therapist, says something about having had sex with Juggernaut. And she's like, no, I didn't. What are you talking about? Wolverine starts making fun of her for this. And she's like, I did not have sex with Juggernaut. She has to go under oath on trial for something unrelated, but she has to swear that she didn't. And so it's this thing that keeps popping up and it's not quite clear. And it all comes out then in the issue that we explored today. We're basically and we'll get into great detail when we get there, but basically anyone from Earth A can take a holiday in Earth Six One Six, and they get to take on the powers of their Six one Six counterpart. And so it reckons it that the shihulk who had sex with and defended Juggernaut was actually the Earth A. The Earth 721. Jen Walters visiting, taking a holiday, having a romp with Kane Marco, going back and then she shows up again in this issue of SheHulk and we'll talk a lot more.

I don't know which I would rather do this holiday or holiday on the robot Frankenstein Westworld Island.

It's not a bad earth. I'll say Earth beach, but the way they sell it in SheHulk is that you can come to our Earth and be on a superhero Earth. Earth Six one Six. So let's dig mhm in through our first exploration of an alternate universe character with Jen Walter 721.

Yeah. So what is your background with the savage sensational she Hulk attorney at law?

So I am not a huge SheHulk fan. I am now, but I wasn't a huge she Hulk fan. I would collect some random issues because I always appreciated that they had funny covers back in the they were clever. And the X Men sometimes would cross over a teeny little bit. She had lots of character crossovers, but since I was never a Hulk fan, I would follow and then especially in the 2000s when stuff happens with her depowering and the red sheet hook and all that. So my first ongoing that I read was the Charles Soul 2014. So that brings her back to being a lawyer, which the Dan slot run reread has her as a lawyer. And with the MCU series, I actually went ahead and read every issue of SheHulk start to finish. So I now do know a lot about SheHulk and have a lot of exposure and enjoyed a lot of it. Not all of it, but a lot of it. And we watched the first episode of SheHulk Disney Plus came out before we recorded and we watched it, loved it, and we'll keep watching. So it doesn't relate to what we're going to be talking about today, so we won't spoil anything. What was your background with SheHulk?

Well, and also, I don't think we've even ever said on this show before that when a new MCU show or movie comes out, you read basically their entire run, their entire appearances, because you are a mad ma'am.

I try if it's someone I'll be interested in. I mean, there's examples like Shangchi I didn't read before going in because I just really didn't even know where to start. But then the movie was so good to both of us that I went back and then read omnibus after omnibus after omnibus. She Hulk, on the other hand, I knew I would enjoy and I knew enough pieces of and so I went back and read it.

But anyway, your experience yeah, I unlike you, have read really, I don't think any Shehole comics until for this episode. The first time I ever remember seeing her was I was a big fan. I think I either recorded them off TV or had the VHS of the 80s or early 90s Hulk animated series that Stan narrated. And she Hulk is in an episode. I don't even remember the context around it, but that was the first time I ever saw her. And then from then on, just randomly picking up comics in the 90s or picking up older comics, she would pop up on the Fantastic Four or in other scenarios. And I always knew that she had a little bit of a lighter tone, but it wasn't until recently that I knew she had this very tongue in cheek, self aware, meta kind of comedy, uh, that has not always been there, but has frequently been there. And then, as you said so far, I really loved the first episode of the new TV series, and I'm really looking forward to seeing where it goes from here. So with that, let us get a blood infusion and transform this opening from our intro into Origins of the story right now on this very show, you're.

Going to get the answer to all your questions.

Our amazing story begins a few years ago. So we're starting not with Shehulk's first appearance, but I guess maybe her first revamped appearance. And that is sensational. She Hulk number one from May 1 989, 2nd. Chance.

And this is written in pencils by John Burn inked by Bob Wyatte colored by Glenn Oliver lettered by John Workman edited by Bobby Chase So SheHulk did debut in 1080. And Savage SheHulk written by Stan, actually, and then had a run on that series of two dozen or so issues, uh, canceled, and then joins the Avengers and shows up in a lot of Avengers and Burns writing some of her appearances in Avengers over the years. And so then when she's getting rebooted in her own titles again, sensational Seahawk Burn is the one who does that reboot. And while he doesn't stay with the title the whole run, he comes back at the end and he's really the one who sets the tone for that run. And so we read this first issue just to be introduced to sort of the modern voice of SheHulk because I think slots taking some inspiration from Burn. So it was your first time reading it. When I read through the Sensational Seahok omnibus, I had said to you, I think you'd really like a lot of it and should read some of it. So what do you think? Reading this first issue?

I think it's a lot of fun. I think it doesn't take itself too seriously at all. A large part of that is also because of the villains who you can, uh, talk about in a moment. Some old favorites of mine from growing master ring master in the Circus of Crime. And then we're also introduced to some of the weirdest Marvel villains in their canon. The Head Men, right?

Yeah. What's their name? Head something. They're absurd and I uh, love them. They show these first few issues.

Yeah. But I think it just is a really fun issue in general because it doesn't take itself very seriously. There are some good jokes in there throughout and it's less jokey than what we'll get with the dance log and now the show. And it's more the absurdity of the situation. But it's still a lot of fun. What do you think?

And I think he builds a little bit to the jokeiness. And his joke enos comes primarily through fourth wall breaking, which actually only happens subtly here. This is not the first 4th wall break. They sort of preview, if you will, the Burn iteration of her by putting having him do a story of her in Marvel Comics presents it's a great Christmas story. And that is actually the first 4th wall breaking. And that was meant to sort of hype sensational Sea Hall coming out. And then this first issue, clearly, first of all, it's very full, I think. And then also, I think he's sort of starting softly and then slowly, like the fourth wall breaking just goes off the ramp. There's full issues that are completely wacky. She'll tear apart the pages. She'll have conversations with Bern? Weezi actually becomes her assistant. Inspired by Weezy of Simonson, of course. So it's really fun. So. I love this start. I think it's great. I also am a big fan of Burns art. Burn is a complicated person, sadly. He's done incredible work, but he's had some views that I can't support. And I even went when I was doing the sensational Sea Hulk read, and I was really falling in love with his work on it. I even went to make sure I could read firsthand what was going on. But I don't want to dwell on that because this is really fun. The work is really fun. And I want to enjoy the work for what it is. Even if he, in the last few years, isn't, uh, the kindest person, well.

Even taking a step back, the sand issue, the savage she Hulk, she is not at all fourth wall breaking. No humor. However, I did want to point out stan does put like this metaness into it in the very first editorial narration box, the very first line, it centers the images of Bruce. And it says, call him David or Bruce or Bob, what does it matter? The important thing is today the tormented Doctor Banner, blah, blah, blah. So right away, I know there's always this big thing right where, like before, it was really codified as Bruce Banner that he had all these other names. So Stan's kind of almost playing with that in his issue, that kind of metaness. And then Jennifer, SheHulk just calls a dock the rest of the issue, I guess, to avoid that. So I was almost wondering if that was some of the kernels of some of the kind of the metaness. Even her character herself, it's like it's Hulk, but it's a woman, and she's going to be she Hulk. Even that itself almost seems a little jokey. What do you think?

Yes, it could be. I mean, that's in line with Stan's narration boxes. Always he's always making jokes to the audience. And so they become meta because he's talking to the audience. Uh, but I don't think they're intended to be meta in the way that Burns intending, but maybe, uh, that was an influence for Burn. And then SheHulk was, of course, famously created because the Hulk TV series was doing well. But he rushed out the origin, the reason he wrote the first issue. And he did not write any more of the series. And he wasn't writing a lot at that point. But supposedly, and I think this has been verified through interviews, he was worried that the TV show was going to put a female Hulk in, and then he wouldn't own the rights to it. So he rushed out an origin of she Hulk so that the comics would own the rights to that character. And they did.

Yes.

You need it. Yeah. I think it's a real fun issue. And I like that they choose cookie villains for her.

Yeah.

She has a great voice.

Yeah. And there's a whole plot. I mean, maybe one of the most ridiculous elements of it is that one member of the Circus of Crime, the professor, who I have to think is modeled his looks after maybe, uh, someone in the Marvel Bullpen or DC or something like that, because he just got this great look. And a lot of the plot is that he makes she Hulk up as Glamazonia. Glamazonia. Yeah. Puts all this makeup on her, i, uh, guess to hide her green skin. So she has white skin, and she's wearing a skimpy white outfit and has red hair, and that's like, how they're disguising SheHulk so the very sacred way out.

But you have to finish the best part that the plan is that she'll turn everyone upside down in the bleachers so that she'll steal their money. Like, everything will fall out of their pockets.

Yes. I was thinking, that is not a way to make that much money. And then the ringmaster says, that how much money they've made. And it was like, thousands and thousands of dollars, and I believe cash. I guess so.

Yeah.

I guess there's a lot you want to buy your popcorn, and you want to yeah, there's some great things. And then the one head man is disguised as a gorilla, and he's spying on them. And then the clown from the Circus of Crime is like, oh, no, the one of the gorillas got loose. And then a minute later, the strong man is like, wait a second. We don't have any gorillas. It's a lot of great humor, and really, the humor starts with the cover. I actually laughed out loud when I read the cover. You've never seen that.

That is one of the most famous covers there is.

I know I've seen it at some point, but I just love the idea that they're commenting on so it's SheHulk there, and she says, okay, now this is your second chance, but if you don't buy my book this time, I'm going to come to your house and rip up all your Xmen.

And she's holding the issue savage, she Hulk number one, which, of course, that title got canceled.

Yeah. And I love that their meta they're commenting on the fact that the first book got canceled, and now she's coming back and she's threatening them. And that Xmen was, of course, like the super popular title. Right. So that's the big threat. And I thought it was so rare, because sometimes the covers it's a totally different art style. It doesn't actually really set you up for the issue. Sometimes we bought comics because of the cover, and then it's like, wait a second, this isn't what I wanted. But here, it totally delivers. It sets the tone right away.

Well, and it helps again, that Burn is doing that covers the art. He's in control of his title a lot until he hits certain delays. Other people fill in, and then he steps away for a while and comes back.

Okay, so I'm going to put on my top hat and hypnotize you. And by the time we get out of this segment, we will begin exploring multiversity.

I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder what if.

And today we are asking that immortal, eternal question, what if she Hulk from Earth 721 took a holiday in the Marvel universe six one six and had sex with the Juggernaut? Thank. Thank you. You. And that is, of course, from uncanny Xmen number 435 and 436, the Trial of Juggernaut, parts one and two from February 2004.

These are written by Chuck Austin, penciled by Ron Garney. Both are inked by Mark Morales, though the second one has support from Dan Green. Both are colored by Pete Pentazis. Both are lettered by Russ Mootin and both are edited by Mike Mart's, Corey Settlemeyer and Stephanie Moore. So we read this because as you're reading it, it is just a six one six story, but it's later retconned as the alternate gen. And in this story, as I mentioned, Juggernaut is being put on trial in Canada. He has this young mutant friend, and he goes to get him, but he violates a restraining order and smashes a building or something. So they put him on trial for all of his crimes. Jennifer Walters is going to or is there to defend him because, of course, she is an active superhero lawyer. And then he gives some moving, touching speech, I guess. So moving, so touching that they wake up in bed together. And then the Crimson Jen of Citarak sends another Juggernaut to fight him. And they both fight this alternate person. And I don't know that's it the end. The case goes away. Jen Walters goes away.

The title is a bit misleading because there's no trial of Juggernaut. There's a position. The settlement of Juggernaut doesn't really ring as, uh, well, and this is, of.

Course, for X Men fans will know. This is a notorious, infamous run Chuck Austin has on X Men, where he writes a lot of stories that a lot of people hate, disrupts a lot of continuity in ways that a lot of people hate, and would like to put the genie back in the bottle. And this is part of that run in the early 2000s. But I guess separating that and then separating the recon, which we can talk about when we get there. Any thoughts on these two issues? I frankly don't have too many.

Well, here in New York, it's a drought right now, and I don't know if it's what's Drier. The grass outside or this comic because it's just like people talking. There doesn't really seem to be any jokes for humor, which is strange because it's she Hulk. So you really think there would be a lot of humor and kind of the concept of her and Darker not getting together romantically I actually think has a lot of potential if they explored okay, here's two super powered people who, without getting too graphic, couldn't necessarily maybe be intimate with other people in the same way. So they find each other in that, and they both are kind of stuck in these bodies. But none of this comic really explores those issues.

No. The challenge. Well, let's discuss that when we get to slots. Uh, run. Because I think there's a lot to discuss about putting SheHulk in sexual situations. And I think there's a lot that Slot is trying to do, and some he does successfully and some he does not do successfully. So I'll hold that thought.

Anything, uh, else?

I mean, there's nothing it's not a comic I'd recommend anyone go read, even if you're a big Kane Marco fan, I don't think there's anything interesting here. He identifies with a kid because they're both children of bullies. So that's about the only depth to him you get here. Yeah, I think that's it.

Yeah. Everything is so surface level. And it did not go as deep. It wasn't as funny enough. It kind of doesn't do anything you want it to go. Oh, is it going to tell a dark story, which I think other trial stories have done, or is it going to tell it in a more comedic fashion because Darkening is kind of ridiculous. She Hulk is a good comedic character, but no, not really.

Yeah. It's also interesting use of she Hulk here. I mean, I don't know if there was a shared editor. I probably should have looked that up or seen why they put her in here. I guess when you have a trial again, she's a superhero lawyer at that point. So it makes sense. And I guess if you want to tell a story of them having sex, then why not? Interesting. I mean, she showed up in X Factor years later, but that was because Peter David was writing both she Hulk and X Factor. So it's an odd one.

And when they do have sex, he's not wearing his helmet. So did they wear protection?

There's going to be a pause after a bad joke.

Oh, okay. Yes, that's a joke.

You need a booze before I don't have a boo on the sound board. So maybe if we stick with sounds, I'll add, uh, a boo.

Just I know I need to hypnotize you. Uh, just think it's a great show, like the Ring Master does to the circus crowd. Yeah. And steal your wallet while I'm at it.

So this is but it is Jennifer Walter, 721. But let's not talk about it anymore until we get into how that gets explained.

Yes. So the Crimson Gem of Citarac will transport us into pondering possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted? So, Gita, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?

Well, as I've described, this is an issue that came out in 2007, a few years later. And this issue establishes that the issues we just read are actually an alternate universe. So we are looking at this issue as retcon and continuing to explore this Jennifer Walters of Earth 721.

So this is mhm. She Hulk 21. Speaking of 21, it's SheHulk 21 from October 2007, and it is another me, another you.

So this is written by Dan Slot and Ty Templeton penciled by Rick Burkett inked by Cliff Rathburn colored by Andy Troy lettered by Dave Sharpen edited by Tom Bravorte this is the second volume of she Hulk. Slot was on the first, it got canceled, it gets relaunched, and he continues on this one. He has a pretty long, significant run at this point. And as you see, this is a few years after X Men. Uh, so as I mentioned in the summary, we have this set up that people on Earth a Earth 721 are being sold by the same company that's making the Androids with Reed Richards. So there's the connection even to the setup of 721. They're being sold this idea that they can go through a portal to Earth six one six, and there is some molecular blah blah blah gobble explanation that when you get to six one six, if your counterpart has powers, your atoms will be molecularly restructured and you will end up with those same powers. And so we encounter she Hulk of that earth here at this time, Jennifer Walters, the Sheilk we know has been depowered so she can't turn into SheHulk. So she encounters her SheHulk version, which is the alternate version. They briefly discover when she's in jail that she's the one who had sex as joke or not. So it explains all those jokes Slot had been making for the last few years of his run on SheHulk. And then the important thing is, of course, when six one six read, richard starts to put everyone back and send back the Earth a Earth 721 duplicates, which include Captain Marvel, includes 3D Man, Wicken Hulkling. There's some fun people in there and some fun moments you can talk about. But he discovers that the Jen Walters of Earth 721 is going to actually stay on six one six and the Jen Walters of Earth six one six is going to go to 721 since she can't transform anyway. So she's actually getting ready to leave or six one six behind. But when she enters the portal, he realizes if he pulls her back real quick, her molecular structure will be reprogrammed to match the 721 one that's already on six one six and thereby fixing her power issue, turning her into. She Hulk again, and then she decides she's going to stay, and 721 SheHulk goes back to her. So it also provides a fix to her deep powering. Clearly in this story, it works, I.

Think, as a device overall, which is good because, as you said, it's a little gobbledy cookie. But then if you think about it, it's like, oh, no, this kind of makes sense.

Yeah. So let's talk about the issue a bit before I get into my thoughts on what he's doing with the rep conf and why he might be doing it and how it relates to SheHulk and her sexuality. But what did you think of the issue? This was your first time reading any of the slot run, which I think follows some of the burn humor. But he's not doing the fourth wall breaking. He does the metatextual stuff. The law firm has the Marvel Comics. That's what they constantly refer to in the law Firm as, like, for case files. It's quite clever, actually. So what do you think?

Yeah, it's a very different kind of humor than the burn one because the burn one is a little bit more absurd. And this definitely has more of, uh, the joke punchline set up, especially, uh, very much a tone that we've seen on the MCU um, project. So I thought it was a lot of fun. And I'm not as scholarly about all this as you are, but I do enjoy seeing a lot of the injokes and things like references to the Marvel Handbook of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe.

Oh, yeah. We should add that because when you are sent through to Earth Six One Six, you are given an official handbook entry so that you know everything about your Six One Six counterpart, which is quite clever. And then Stu, who works for the Law Firm and does the comic book research, points out that the character we see coming through isn't afraid of fire anymore, that that's actually been changed. And so there's some fun, like slots is lots of, I think, making, uh, fun of continuity nerds through those characters, which he does here.

Yeah. So I think that's all a lot of fun. Mhm, what about you having now read this entire run?

Yeah, it's funny because I read the whole run and by the time I got to this point in the run, I actually was doing a little skimming. I think it loses steam, and then I think it gets much reinvigorated by Peter David coming in. But going back and reading this issue more carefully and reading it in the context of those X Men helped give me a little more sense of what he's doing here. Reading it in isolation, I didn't fully understand what was going on and why it mattered that there was this Earth 721 gen and not that the stakes of her having had sex with Juggernaut are that high, but it just adds a layer and adds depth to it. I'd say a little bit. And I think the rest of it is fun. You don't know the characters, but I like the pub character and the Malorie character and Stu and the comic book research. I like a lot of what Slot is doing in this run. Anything else on the issue itself? And then I want to talk about broader what I think is going, uh, on.

Well, yeah, I think definitely is fun for anyone with even a passing interest in comics and metaness. And you mentioned Peter David and one panel. It's like we're in a Peter David comic. And the other guy says, I wish, and the other guy looks like Peter David, which I'm sure is on purpose.

It's also funny, too, because he has not been writing SheHulk yet at this point, but will be soon. So that's a funny reference. I don't know where it comes.

And we see 3D man, who we've talked about on this podcast as well, who himself was like, um, a retconned in character into the six one six. So it's fun there. I love the Dazzler joke where the other Dazzler has been doing the other Dazzler's 80s material. She's dressed like 80s, touring the Midwest.

And making money off of it. Yeah, that's where there's some cleverness with this whole idea that there's this Earth whose population is taking holiday in our Earth. I think that's fun.

And then there's just like, vermin, and one is dead and one is still alive. And they're even kind of saying, like, why do we care? Should we even figure this out? It doesn't matter. It's kind of making a joke about the secondary character. So all of that is definitely a lot of fun.

Yeah, I totally agree. So he has to be reconning Chuck Austin's story on purpose, right? There's no other reason to mine that story. He could have told the same story with Earth A and not gone back and undid that Chuck Austin two issue story from three years earlier. It almost feels to me like there's a vendetta here, which I'm okay with. And again, I have a thought about in terms of Shelk sexuality. But do you feel the same way?

Yeah, well, you know what the one thing that made me think of it is? When we see she Hulk early in this issue, she's citing the rhino. And the rhino is also featured in those uncanny X Meno juggernaut fights. Rhino in the head, in the mouth.

He doesn't die, clearly.

Yeah. So although she hope doesn't fight him in the uncanny accident, I was thinking, well, maybe by including the rhino here, that was another nod to that Chuck Austin run.

Yeah, though I don't think it's a nod, an homage. It's a nod. No, I think he's trying to get rid of referencing it, which, again, a lot of X Men fans would like to dismantle other parts of Austin so maybe Slot felt the same way with SheHulk.

And why do we think that this Jennifer was there in the Chuck Austin run? Like, why doesn't the six months, six Jennifer know what's going on? Is that everything?

No, that requires a suspension of disbelief, I guess. Again, if you imagine 721 is taking a holiday, then just coincidentally, 721 has to show up to the six one six for her holiday and somehow intercept the call to go defend Juggernaut and go do that. Right. And we know she's a lawyer, so it does work that they explain that in this issue. So she could have gone to do the legal defense. But yes, in terms of how she ends up going there, you have to suspend disbelief a little that she somehow intercepted it. But I think what Slots doing is, see, the thing that you said there could have been a good story with she Hulk and Juggernaut. And it actually makes me think we already recorded the interview that's coming in next week's episode. And it has a lot to do with this, in fact. And our guest has a lot to say in his studies of gender in comics about this. The problem is that she Hulk, uh, is always put into relationship or in bed, frankly. And of course, that's not done for any male heroes, right? Even a Lotario hero. Uh, I don't know if we're imagining Wolverine is, uh, supposed to be someone who has lots of sex. He's not put into these situations constantly. Stories don't constantly occur where he wakes up in bed with someone else or where it's about his reaction to waking up in bed. And so SheHulk is that, especially in the Burn run. I mean, more notoriously, she's drawn in states of undress constantly. But I actually don't think Slot fixes that, sadly.

There's a joke, actually, we didn't mention in the burn issue, right, where she gets new clothes, and she even says all these clothes are so tight that if I flex this, comics is going to have to be on the epic line, which was.

One of the inclusive.

Meta jokes in there. Yeah. But yeah, to your point, she's definitely very super tight clothes. And even when she's done up as Glamma Zonia, it's a very sexy, quote unquote image.

So I think Slot is trying to comment on that throughout his run. There are a lot of moments where she Hulk wakes up in bed, and then there will be times where she's like, I don't want to be I think she even describes herself as a sex pinball. So she's someone who has lots of sex, which, again, we can presume Tony Stark does. And in some ways, there is an empowerment to a woman having agency around her sexuality, for sure. I don't know that he's so successful, though, in commenting on it or sending it up or dismantling it in his run, but I suspect that's part of. So even if there wasn't some, just I hate what Austin did in terms of putting her with Juggernaut thing here with the recon. I think it would fit into his larger narrative of like, well, stories with SheHulk shouldn't always have to be about her in relationship, particularly sexual relationship with someone else. So let's actually dismantle that one and do it in this clever way.

Yeah, I think you're right. That is what he's doing. Mhm, is he completely successful at it? I'm not sure. And this dance law didn't necessarily write this. And could it come from Tom Bravoard or the editor or someone else? But on the recap page at the very top, and it's seen tiny letters, so you can kind of miss, uh, it it says Jessica Walters. Hear her story. And it gave her the ability to Jennifer Walters. Now. Jessica Walters is from Rest Development. So wrong person. She would be another yes, I love that. But it gave her the ability to change into the world sexiest, sassiest, and strongest superheroine. So right there, it's saying still sexiest and even sassy. It's like, okay, just because she's a woman, she also has to be sassy too.

Notice the order of the adjectives, which I think they could be thinking they're being funny. Right? I think that's the risk you get. I think there's a way where it's especially this era of humor, I think, where it's like, yes, we know we're in fact, satirizing or sending up the sexism that has been part of Shehulk's story, but, um, they're not doing it effectively. And so, in fact, they're just reproducing the sexism that has been present. Like the fact that sexiest is the first adjective I'm sure someone thought was funny, but it just reinforces the same challenges that we've had with her character. So, yeah, I think it's complex and interesting, and I think this is a really interesting way to go back and fix some of those problems. If Slot had done this in other ways, or if other writers did this, I'm all for using alternate universe versions to sort of fix what no longer works well, for whatever reason.

Totally.

How about you?

Yeah, no, I think that's a really interesting mhm idea because it is keeping with the Six One Six Ultimate. Uh, everything exists within one timeline. And this is more of an alternate universe, but it is a fun way of dealing with it. I do think it would depend. I think she Hulk works great for it. Um, because she is a character that you can put humor in. Now, maybe there's ways to do it in more serious ways with characters where that humor is not as present. But someone like a Spiderman would also be another great character that just go back to the multiverse and you can correct something that happened years ago.

Yeah, and that's been done a lot in Spiderman through the multiverse, through clones, through magic, spells.

There's a lot of recons.

Yeah, I guess two questions remain. One, anything to say about the arc of Jennifer Walter 721? We've never seen her again. Would you want to see her again? Does she have an interesting arc?

No, I mean, I don't really need to see her again. I don't know how interesting her arc is, really. I think what's more interesting is maybe an exploration of which I doubt we'll see, but an exploration of this device and this holiday idea.

So that was going to be my next question is like, do we want more stories about Earth 721? There's actually not anymore. That's it. Even though it's this again, early established Marvel alternate Earth, and even though it has a somewhat important Fantastic Four story and then it is here that's it. We don't get much more of 721. So it sounds like you would entertain more stories coming out of 721.

Well, such a classic sci-fi Twilight Zone kind of concept. What if you were a billionaire in another universe and you could then suddenly become a billionaire because you were a billionaire in that other universe? And superhero is another great idea. You just become a superhero. And it almost reminds me a bit of something like a capricorn or something like that, where you're not always going to be in that world. You can go into that world for a bit, then you can come back to your Earth and be your normal self. You aren't burdened with everything a superhero is constantly burdened with, where you have this power all the time. You are constantly in danger. You can kind of go there for a week and then go back to your Earth.

Well, definitely. Yeah, it's definitely that wish fulfillment stuff because even the Monica Rambeau in here, uh, the Earth a Earth 721 Monica Rambo, uh, says she only wanted to come to this Earth because, uh, her parents were still alive in this Earth.

Yeah, I haven't watched the HBO Westbrook, but that's what the Michael Cried in film is about. It's like, okay, you're experiencing this for just a short period of time, and then you're, in theory, going back to the rest of your life unless the robots go crazy and try to kill you. So it's kind of a similar concept.

And maybe that's considering that Earth 721 feels like it was inspired by Westworld, perhaps Slot was inspired to use Er 721 to do this recon because of the plot of west world. So that's an interesting connection.

And my question for you would be now, mhm, that the MCU is all in a multiverses with Loki, with Doctor Strange, probably when the Fantastic Four get introduced. Um, and that she Wanda, of course, now that she Hulk is introduced as a character on the TV show, do you think we could see something like this dance slot issue? Obviously not very different, but do you think something would come up?

Yeah, no doubt. Well, first of all, I have to say there are rumors out there. Close your ears if you don't want to hear. Totally probably fabricated rumors. No spoilers, no data, no information. But there are rumors that Juggernaut is going to show up in S-H-E-L-I don't think that's true. But I do think that this device would work really well in the MCU, because just imagine that we get to see Chris Evans from another earth because he's on trial and she Hulk has to go defend him because he did something bad in that earth, right? It just gives you the chance to pull anyone in for fun and tell a little story and not have it have repercussions. So I definitely think that we are likely to see multiversal device use in the SheHulk TV show. I don't know that it will be just like this with characters coming to Holiday, but maybe we just Metana briefly in that first episode. Her origin in the comics is pretty complicated because it has to do with the beyond her, which of course has a lot of people thinking that it's set up for secret wars, but it's frankly not going to translate that wall to MCU, I don't think. So maybe Tatanya is like someone from another earth who came to Holiday in six one six to get powers or who knows? We'll find out.

I don't know how accurate this would be, but here would be a really out on the limb prediction, which is that because she Hulk is breaking the fourth wall on the TV show and I know she does that in the comics too. Could the TV show not be in the, um, six one six as we know it and this energy gets transported to the six one six?

I think that's hard. While I do think that some of what we've seen in phase four is not the six one six, I think it's hard. You have to be so careful with stakes because the stakes are lost, they're lower. For example, this first episode of she Hulk, which if you don't want to hear anything about it, then I guess pause here, but has Bruce Banner in it and sort of continues Hulk's story a little bit. We get Hulk reflecting on some things. You get his healing of his arm. Let's say that's not the six one six takes away from what that meant to someone who cares about Hulk's arc. So that's why I think she's more likely to encounter people from the multiverse then she herself will be living in.

The multiverse and even crossover potentially onto the Loki series where we know people mhm go to trial for jumping the timeline.

As you know, I rewatched all of Loki before we watched the first episode of Seahawk because I am convinced the TVA will show up. It makes a lot of sense. It happens in the comics. It makes a lot of sense. I also think that there's a chance for her to not just Loki, but to cross over with any other multiversal thing that we've seen or go into different dimensions or have people from other dimensions.

Yeah, no, I think so, but yeah, and I think this Dan Slot comic definitely a big influence on the TV show. So if you like this Dan Slot comic or you like the TV show and you haven't read the dance Lock comic, I think it's a great way into the she Hulk fandom either way.

And it's a fun, unique story using this classic Marvel, um, alternate Earth to reckon something and give us Earth 721. Jennifer Walters. So I have been Guido. The sensational Guido.

I have been the average Rob. Thank you. And that's a wrap. Dear Watchers, thank you so much for listening.

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