Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

>> Rob: Heavens to Murgatroyd. Welcome to dear Watchers in omniversal comic book podcast, where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

>> Guido: We are traveling with you even through the stories and the worlds, even that make up an omniverse of fictional realities even we all love. And your watchers on this journey are me, Guido Puss. I tried to think of an alliterative name, but I guess our main character doesnt have one. So I'll go with dinner.

>> Rob: And I guess that makes me snaggle rob.

>> Guido: I think those work out well. And, it'll all become clear why we're speaking the way we're speaking as we move into this episode.

>> Rob: You know, completely unplanned Guido. And you're the only person, of course, that can see me because this is a podcast. But I'm wearing a bright shirt right now.

>> Guido: You are? That must have been subconscious, because.

>> Rob: Subconscious.

>> Guido: The exact snaggle puss pink.

>> Rob: I was reading them last night while I was starting to fall asleep. So maybe like this morning when I woke up, it was like, I'm drawn to that pink shirt.

>> Guido: Wow, wow, wow, wow.

>> Rob: We'll talk more about Snaggle Puss and the whole Hanna Barbera, cadre of characters in just a bit. But you know what's new in our little section of the multiverse?

>> Guido: Well, this is our next Pride Month episode. It's still Pride month, although I like to celebrate Pride every day all year. But we are here with our follow up to what if Wolverine was gay? A really fantastic, fun episode that it looks like a lot of people listened to and had questions or thoughts about Howlett. So go back and listen to our last episode if you haven't yet. And today we're continuing Pride Month. But on Pride Month, I have to mention again that, my book is very pride related. Queer mythology out this fall. I know I've mentioned it a few times. Hopefully people have pre ordered it or learned about it. You can even now go to mythology gay to learn more about it, which is a fun domain.

>> Rob: And you can get it from Allstora, which is a great LGBTQ owned website co owned by RuPaul.

>> Guido: Don't give press to someone who's not, sponsoring us. Come on. Allstar is not sponsoring us. So don't. They should, but they are not. But another company not sponsoring us is one that you, are connected to. Rob, power to fly. And I'm doing, actually, a panel for pride month next week about queer storytelling and queer mythology. So if our listeners want to hear more of me, because why wouldn't you? Then you should register right away. Go to powertofly.com. right, doctor fly.com and register for the pride summit.

>> Rob: Yeah, you'll be on a lineup with also comic book royalty or comic book on screen royalty. Alan Cumming is also speaking at the end.

>> Guido: Oh, my God. And I heard, I just saw, a quote that he said that, x men two was the gayest project he's ever been involved in. So that's really fun. Yeah, I'm intrigued by that.

>> Rob: His other comic book adaptation is Josie and the Pussycats, which on tv was done by Hanna Barbera. the Matrix.

>> Guido: Oh, so many connections. So obviously, register for that event if you're listening to this when it comes out. It's next week. And if you're listening to this two weeks after it came out, then you missed it. But you should still register and check that out.

>> Rob: You watch the recording.

>> Guido: You can.

>> Rob: And if you're joining us, for the first time. Oh, wait, there's more news.

>> Guido: We have. Well, if you're joining us for the first time, you should know that you can go to Dearwatchers.com because our website is an index of all of our episodes. And as our number increases, I know we have some faithful listeners who listen every week, but I know we also have some new listeners who dip in and out or are joining us for the first time. And on dearwatchers.com, you can look at all of our episodes, search by different characters or comic names that you want to see when we covered. And so we encourage you to go check us out there.

>> Rob: Well, if you are here with us for the first time, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today. Origins of the story, exploring multiversity and pondering possibilities. So thanks for coming along, and remember.

>> Guido: To leave a review wherever you're listening, and find us on social media at dearwatchers.

>> Rob: And with that, dear Watchers, welcome to episode 136. And let's check out what's happening in the omniverse with our travels to today's alternate universe. And we are just tickled pink to answer the question, what if snagglepuss, the pink Hanna Barbera cartoon lion, was gay and also an iconic american playwright?

>> Guido: Yeah, and there are a whole bunch of earths, in fact, in which DC and Hanna Barbera comics exist. It's not clear that any are shared, though. So we're going to call this earth Tennessee Williams the lion. And it was seen in just one short backup and then a mini series published by DC that we'll dive into today. So we have a pretty unique earth on our journey today.

>> Rob: Well, before we talk about our comic books, Guido, what was your background with snagglepuss and the Hanna Barbera characters?

>> Guido: I think it was probably pretty typical of people who grew up when I did in the 1980s. So it's like after the initial wave of Hanna Barbera, children in the sixties and into the seventies would really have been a part of that. Kids in the eighties were, though, watching all of their cartoons on reruns, of course. Constantly. When I get into the background on the company, you'll hear lots of familiar names. So I, even doing research for today's episode, was surprised how many cartoons I watched that were Hanna Barbera, in terms of their staple characters, though, I've always known they existed. I knew who they were. I knew who snow Gold plus was, existed in the world. I knew quick draw and McGraw, but never thought about them beyond childhood until this comic book series and this. Yeah, we'll get way into that. So that's it, I think, roughly familiar, not at all a fan, but appreciate, the, stories and art that Hanna Barbera have brought into the world over so many decades. How about you?

>> Rob: They were probably number three in cartoon recognition notes.

>> Guido: Yeah, they're three in the world in general.

>> Rob: yeah. Well, you watch Disney when you're a kid and then you kind of maybe phase out at Disney and then Looney Tunes definitely takes over. And then you watch some Hanna Barbera. I think the Flintstones you put in almost a separate category. Right? Because that's like the.

>> Guido: Well, we'll get into the properties.

>> Rob: Yeah, yeah. I would watch a lot of them and then I would. I loved wacky racers, like that show where they would. It was kind of like the great race. And I think Snagglepuss was one of those racers or he would be around. But he is a character. Yeah, I knew who he was. He's, I guess, just one of those people or characters that, like, most people have some sense of him. But I couldn't have told you anything else about him until we started digging into this.

>> Guido: No. And I wonder if some of that is maybe Hanna Barbera characters were just licensed so much on products. I can't even think of that. But, yeah. I'm trying to figure out why we are so familiar with them and yet there's actually not that much content of them. We'll get into how much there is for Snaggleplitz, but it is not a lot. And so it's like, well, why did he persist?

>> Rob: And who with? Some of the Looney Tunes characters like this tasmanian devil and Marvin the Martian are just like, they came through being on t shirts and everyone knows who they are. But I think the Taz has, like, five appearances and, like, classic Looney tunes or some very low number.

>> Guido: Yeah. So all very interesting stuff. This is our first foray into classic animated history, and I'm excited.

>> Rob: Okay, so we're. Oh, I just thought of this. You know, what is a group of lions but a pride? Perfect place to start back at origins of the story. Right now on this very show, you're gonna get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago. So let's first talk about Hanna Barbera and Snaggle Puss. Some quick background on, both. And then we'll talk about what brought them into comics.

>> Guido: Yeah, so Hanna Barbera is a very famous american animation studio. as you already said, perhaps behind Looney Tunes in Disney, it's the most famous. I know we have, like, Tex Avery and some other MGM stuff and other things in there, but Hanna Barbera is definitely in those top three. It was founded in 1957 and absorbed into the corporate media mega monolith, Warner Brothers in 2001. William Hanna and Joseph Barbera are the eponymous names of the company and led most of the production and created most of the characters. Created, means wrote and directed the animation. The company made nearly 200 television shows, shows. Wow. Episodes. Episodes were probably above 1000. Made nearly 200 television shows, almost all animated. Plus dozens. Probably over 100 movies. Specials direct to video things, commercials, mostly animation, some live action. The most famous of Hanna Barbera. I'm sure this is gonna. I'm sure people are gonna have differing opinions about what's the most famous, but probably the Flintstones. There are over 200 episodes of the show, specials and spin offs. But you also have the Smurfs, which had nearly 300 episodes.

>> Rob: I don't know if I knew the Smurfs were Hanna Barbera. Actually, no.

>> Guido: Same. Yogi Bear, of course, super famous character, had a bunch of shows.

>> Guido: Scooby Doo Jetsons, Johnny Quest. And then they've done a ton of comic book adaptations, in fact, because as an animation studio, they did the Fantastic Four series for Marvel back in the sixties. They did super friends and all the super friends spin offs and iterations for DC. They did Richie Rich. Both the Smurfs and the snorks are based on comics, so that counts. As you mentioned, they did Josie and the Pussycats. They did the thing meets Fred and Barney, which is something we will need to find. And it's an animated cartoon special with the thing from Fantastic Four meeting the Flintstones. So we're gonna have to cover that.

>> Rob: I thought it was gonna be, like, the thing from, like, the John Carpenter.

>> Guido: Movie meeting Fred and Thorny, the Fantastic Four series. Of course, it's rock Casper, the ghost fish police. So they've done a lot of comic book adaptations over the years, so interesting company. And that barely scratches the surface of their history. But let's get on.

>> Rob: Yeah, it feels like there's the. The animal world of, like, snagglepuss and all those animals, and then, like, everybody else. Cause, like, the animals seem like they have a, shared universe.

>> Guido: Yeah, well, they definitely do because they, like, debuted in their own shows, and then it would end up on other shows, although I think they were kept still in boxes. Like, you're about to mention snuggle plus, his debut, he debuts on one show, continues on another, but it's always a show with multiple segments. You know, like the Looney Tunes shows. Like, they would have cartoon segments.

>> Rob: So if the Looney tunes interacted a lot more, like bugs and would then.

>> Guido: Come into ones, but not once you get into the side characters, you'll end up with, like, those two chipmunks. And they have their own little world they live in. And so I think Snaggle Puss is little like that, and I think all the animals are like that.

>> Rob: Well, let's talk a little bit about him. He is a hot pink mountain lion wearing only a collar, cuffs, and a tie, known for his catchphrases. And those are heaven's to Murgatroyd, exit stage left. And the use of the word even as a rejoinder.

>> Guido: Even so, he puts it at the end of a sentence. And I really want to know. I don't know the origin, of that. If he. I doubt he created it. They must have been pulling it from somewhere. But it's funny because I feel like that's become even increasingly popular now, especially with, like, texting language and that sort of way. Language is breaking apart from formal grammatical.

>> Rob: Rules way ahead of his time. Well, also common today is existential dread and fright of life in general, which he.

>> Guido: He also definitely says that's increasingly common.

>> Rob: And his voice sounds remarkably like the cowardly lion. And he also shares personality. Personality there as well. And there was, in fact, a lawsuit from Bert Lahr, who was the actor who played the cowardly lion in the wizard of Oz. His first appearances are in the quick draw McGraw. That's the horse Sheriff show in 1959, before he became a regular segment on Yogi Bear show. And this is what you alluded to earlier, Guido. He had just 32 shorts made of his story, but appeared in some later medley shows and about a dozen Yogi movies over the years, especially in the 1970s and 1980s. Then in modern times, he's also appeared in Harvey Birdman a handful of times. Won Teen Titans go episode in 2023, celebrating the 100th anniversary of Warner Brothers. He did have a love interest in a handful of episodes named Lila and Joseph Barbara claimed he could not be gay, so. Because of that, I guess so.

>> Guido: Well, no, because he was modeled off of Burt Lahr, and Joseph Barbera said, and I'm assuming he was being funny, he said he couldn't be gay. He was modeled off of Burt Lahr, who abused his wife. Oh, is a direct quote from Joseph Barbera. So, unclear what that meant or why, but that was his explanation. Cause he was asked if Snagglepuss was gay, and Snagglepuss was actually based on Snaggletooth, a character a few years earlier, but who was not at all, did not have any of the characterizations here. So they sort of rebooted him in the 59 appearance.

>> Rob: And I did want to mention, too, the original voice actor was a great name, Dawes Butler. And he did a million of the Hanna Barbera characters. And what was interesting, too, I thought, was because after Burtlar sued, they had to make sure everyone knew it wasn't Bertlar doing the voice. So they actually put Dawes Butler's name, and a lot of those actors weren't credited at that time. And it actually helped Dawes a lot because then his name was out there. Everyone knew he did Snaggle puss because they had to make sure everyone knew it wasn't Burt.

>> Guido: Yeah. So a weird history, but with not too much content. So we'll get into the comics in a few minutes, but let's first just get into the character, because we watched some OG snagglepuss.

>> Rob: Yes. And this was Snagglepuss in major operation. That was a segment on the Yogi Bear show from January, 1961, and it's.

>> Guido: Produced and directed, which is the only credits given by William Hanna and Joseph Barbera. So it was fun. I mean, it's not amazing to me. It was enjoyable. I mean, it's eight minutes. It's like, whatever, it's eight minutes. But. And we did watch part of a second episode and a few other clips I mean, it's just so silly. I think the only thing to me that, like, did, does make him stand out is he's so, he has so many affectations.

>> Rob: Mm

>> Guido: And whether they were trying to make him gay or just trying to make him, like, sort of weird or. Or trying to make him some astite or whatever they were doing, I have no idea what the intentions were. But he has so many affectations, that makes it a little fun, but otherwise, it just was what it was.

>> Rob: And this setup is remarkably similar to the bugs and Elmer setup because this, his antagonist is this little explorer guy. Major. Major. And he's a hunter, and he's trying to get the elusive snaggle puss. But, like, Bugs is, like, the opposite. Like, Bugs isn't eurudite at all. Bugs is like a bunny of the people. He's, like, the working class.

>> Guido: Well, he's got the wise cracking witticism, so I don't know.

>> Rob: He has that. But, like, the dialect is very much like working class Brooklyn, New York character. And this is like Snagglepuss would. If Bugs is in Brooklyn, Snagglepuss is in Upper east side Manhattan going to the theater.

>> Guido: Yeah. Yeah. So I don't really actually have much else to say. Would I watch more? I'd put it on, but I'm not going to seek out a snaggle, puss collection. Of all the shorts they actually, Hanna Barbera actually doesn't do a great job of releasing their content. I've learned through this process. I actually don't even think you can legitimately stream this. I think you have to go track it down elsewhere, because even the Yogi Bear show actually doesn't stream. So. Yeah. M anything else we want to say about OG Snaggle?

>> Rob: No, I think it's definitely works in, like, eight minute chunks. I don't know if you'd want to watch a full snaggle Puss movie, but that leads us really well into our full snaggle pussy comic. In exploring multiversity.

>> Guido: I am your guide through these vast new realities.

>> Rob: Follow me and ponder the question, what if?

>> Guido: All right, so before we dive into this earth of Earth, Tennessee Williams, the Pink lion, let's talk DC Comics and Hanna Barbera, because with the same parent company, it was, of course, inevitable. Though still unusual, it's still quite odd. And in, a good way, I think that these crossovers happened. They also happened many years after Hanna Barbera was absorbed. So it's 2016, and DC, launches what's known as the Hanna Barbera Beyond Project. So this creates some hits and misses. It creates some weird and some straightforward and even some great books across just about a hundred, a little over 100 comic books in nine different ongoing or mini series, as well as a bunch of one shots or crossovers in annuals for the characters, many of which we're gonna have to eventually cover because they're just so strange. Like you have booster gold meets the Flintstones, which makes sense, time travel, but still. Or like Nightwing and Megillagorrilla, you just have some weird pairings. The ongoings, I'd say, were anchored by two titles, the Flintstones, which was short lived. It was about a dozen issues by the same writer of what we covered today. And it's an extraordinary series that got tons of critical acclaim, actually won a bunch of awards. And then the longer running Scooby apocalypse, perhaps inspired by afterlife with Archie, because it does take place after that. It puts the Scooby gang in an apocalyptic storyline. It takes it a little bit more seriously. And those are the sort of anchor books, I'd say. The last books come out in 2019, though. All of the Hanna Barbera books are available on the DC Universe Infinite app because they are shared company and not licenses. So that's the nice thing. Usually, as we know and have talked about many times, license books disappear and go away. So.

>> Rob: And I could see a big content between the. What Archie was doing a little bit before this and here, like, taking those very familiar characters or a version of those characters and putting them in more adult settings in those cases, a lot of macabre horror settings. Yeah.

>> Guido: And some of that was here again with the Scooby Apocalypse thing. They did that. Yeah. So it's. It's a really fun initiative. It's interesting to me and hasn't been revisited. And there are some great books that we can cover in the future because I don't remember if I made you read the Flintstones. I know I wanted.

>> Rob: Yeah, I read the Flintstones.

>> Guido: You might not have.

>> Rob: I don't know if I read the whole thing, but I did read some of that. Yeah. That's very good.

>> Guido: Yeah. Well, so and all. But all of them. Scooby Apocalypse is fun. They're. They're a great series of titles. But we are focusing in on our pink lion.

>> Rob: Yes. So we read the Suicide Squad banana splits backup story that launches the version.

>> Guido: Of the character vulva pairing. How about that?

>> Rob: Yeah, they did that banana splits hard.

>> Guido: A few years ago.

>> Rob: Really? Yeah. I think it was a, Yeah, I never saw it. I think it was like a Friday night at Freddy's, but way before that.

>> Guido: But doesn't sound right. But all right.

>> Rob: I think it's. I think so. So that was back in May 2017, but then our main book that we're talking about is exit stage left, the Snaggle Puss Chronicles. That's from DC Comics. And it came out March 2018 to August 2018.

>> Guido: Yeah. So to talk a little bit about the creative team, the writer is Mark Russell. It's penciled by Mike Thean, inked by Mark Morales, colored by Paul Mounts, lettered by Dave Sharp, edited by Marie Javans, and Diego Lopez. There are a few folks who come in to help with some of the inking, coloring, and lettering later in the series, but Mark and Mike remain on the book the whole stretch. The backup that launches this concept is Mark Russell with artist Howard Porter. The one in Suicide Squad. Banana splits, though. And even though there's a year between the two books, the backup actually ends with coming soon. Exit the Snaggle. Exit stage left. The Snaggle was chronicles, so it was in the plan. It's not that this was a standalone backup that did really well. And then they greenlit a mini series. It was in the plan from the beginning to launch this character this way and a bid on Mark at, ah, this point. So he had just started in comics a few years prior, in 2015, did the DC relaunch of Prez, and then the Flintstones series is 2016. It's award winning. As mentioned, Snaggle puss happens next after this for DC, he does a wonder twins reboot. A whole bunch of great books for ahoy comics like Second Coming and Billionaire island, and then is really known for including this book, of course, social commentary books. And there's a great one, not all robots for Awa, that I like. He did one star squadron at DC, which is a really fun take on D list superheroes and Uber. And he did Fantastic Four life story at Marvel, Superman, space Age, and the sequel. Right now, dark age. And, most exciting, he's doing the forthcoming x Factor relaunch at Marvel. Cannot wait for that. That is going to be so good. He's amazing and just. I'm predisposed to love him. I wouldn't even say I'm biased because I just have good reason. He's so good. He's absolutely extraordinary. We've gotten to meet him a few times at New York Comic cons over the years, but, his writing is spectacular. So that's the background on Mark and the creative team why don't you give us a little sense of the book for people who haven't read it?

>> Rob: So snaggle Puss is a successful Tennessee Williams esque playwright who keeps his gay sexuality, including nights at the iconic Stonewall Inn, a secret. But when Snagglepuss is pressured to create pro american art for the House of un american activities Committee, everyone in his orbit, including his beard wife, his cuban lover, and his old gay friend Huckleberry hound, get pulled into the chaos. Snaglpus must then decide whether he wants to destroy his integrity but save his career or risk ruining his own life and everyone around him.

>> Guido: Yeah, so it's heavy and adult. Unquestionably.

>> Guido: let's start with generally. We both have read this before, in part because I read it when it came out and made you read it, and now we've both read it again. I love this book. You?

>> Rob: Yeah, no, I do too. I mean, it's incredibly moving. I was reading it in between, like, when I was having my lunch and I had, like, one issue left and I was like, oh, I have to get back to doing some work. But I was like, I really want to finish reading the last issue because it worked so well in terms of the human drama and really, like, what's going to happen next.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah, it does work so well. I mean, Mark Russell is truly a genius, and I'll try not to just gush the whole time, but the pacing is good. Again, the social commentary is good. I guess zooming out like the world he's created is interesting. It reminds me a lot of the Muppets. He puts these characters in this world, and there's no question about it. No one is like, why am I talking to a lion? He just is a pink lion. Everyone else is human, right? So if you haven't read this before, it's not a world populated by exclusively Hanna Barbera characters. It's our human world. You even meet people like Dorothy Parker, and, you don't actually meet Joseph McCarthy, but, yeah, Lillian Hellman, you don't meet Joseph McCarthy, but they refer to him. all the senators are human, but in this world, the Hanna Barbera characters also exist, and there's just no question about that. And I think that is so cool. I love the way the Muppets handle that. Jim was always very clear on that rule, that no one can identify that these muppets are muppets. And it works really well here because it brings almost an absurdity to it. But the book is not funny. It's not meant to be funny. It's not funny, but it's absurd.

>> Rob: Well, you know what I think it does is it lures you in a bit, because if this was just the story of a human playwright, you'd go, okay, I've seen this story before. But the fact that it is a pink lion that you're following, there's something about that that kind of just brings you in, and it's like, okay, I'm not just getting a history lesson. There's this other element to it. So it works well as kind of a great kind of lure for the story and just like, sprinkling those through. So it's not one of those kind of things where every single character is, oh, that's so and so, that's Yogi bear or something like that. But then he does a great job of just putting characters like Huckleberry Hound, a quick draw McGraw, into the story.

>> Guido: Squidly diddly like is in there and has a little bit of a plot. But yeah, he's not doing, like, cameos as, distraction, for sure.

>> Rob: Exactly.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah. I think what's cool, too, about what you're saying, I don't want to spoil the twists of the story in our conversation if we can avoid it, because I really think everyone should go read this book. But the story ends in a way. It takes place between 1953 and 1958, and it ends ready to launch into 1959 when Snagglepuss is created as a character on television. M as if this comic is taking place in our world, and then the history becomes the tv show, and we just have to imagine that this character is playing character, playing himself on tv. But, my point is, is that this is almost a prequel, that he has almost taken these characters and created this story as like, ah, what was happening before the show in the 1950s. And how do I use these characters? Like, he's doing so much here with these characters. And it's interesting, because, like, you're saying it wouldn't be nearly, it would be an extraordinary comic if it was humans, but you wouldn't be thinking about it so much if it was humans, but because they're animals and you have the surrealism and the absurdity of that, and because he's situating it as part of, like, this meta narrative of snagglepuss in our world, it becomes very thought provoking.

>> Rob: Well, yeah, my one criticism of the piece was going to be because when I first read this, it had been a long time since I had seen a snagglepuss cartoon. But having just watched Snagglepuss cartoons before we read this, I was like, well, this is very moving, but this character doesn't really seem like snagglepuss to me. Like, he's not the cartoon character. He doesn't speak with, like, the even, like, adding the evens after the lines. He doesn't really have those catchphrases. So I was like, oh, this is an interesting concept, but, and there's really moving writing, but it's not really the character and what he does in kind of the final issue, and I'll speak around it rather than kind of, get into the whole thing, because I do think it needs to be read. But I think there's a reason why he doesn't speak like the cartoon character. That only becomes clear in the final issue. And I think that's like, it's so interesting as a writer, like, to then subvert what you're reading as the audience and change your viewpoint from the previous six books. It's like, oh, wait a second. Everything I thought up to this point is actually wrong because, I was not in the same reality necessarily as the book. And that's, like, such a genius thing to do.

>> Guido: Well. And it's really meaningful too, because it's, it's tragic, not just because of the real life tragedy that's happening around him, but it's tragic that he makes this choice and goes to be on this show. And what's happening in terms of he's gonna play this character. He's been a really famous playwright. His career gets derailed, and now he's gonna almost go play this caricature of himself. And so there's all these layers to it that make m it genius as you're reading it. And, yeah, it's what's so cool. Because I was thinking, could you have told this story without it being snaggle? Like, does it being snaggle puss add to the story? And it does for the reasons we're describing. Like, even if you don't, aren't a snaggle plus expert, there is just so much Mark Wessel's doing with this idea and this character, and even the idea of pop culture, and certainly the whole thesis of the whole series is about the role art plays in society to challenge social norms and challenge oppression. So to then use one of the most mainstream characters there are outside of Mickey Mouse or something, he's using this children's pop culture icon, mini icon, b list icon to tell this story. So it's just. It's firing on so many levels. Yeah. Really remarkable.

>> Rob: And the world building, too, that's involved. One of the things I thought that was so interesting is so Zachel puts us, this playwright, and he's writing these very autobiographical glass menagerie kind of plays. And the actors in the plays are a mix of humans and animals, but because it's autobiographical, it's human actors dressed like Snaggle Puss.

>> Guido: Snaggle puss? Yeah. They have, like, a fake snout and fake ears.

>> Rob: So it's like, oh, it's working on so many levels there. And also the world building, where it's like, oh. Like, we usually, we would have anthropomorphized animals, and we do have them here. The snaggle puss is that. But it would be animals wearing clothes, which is a big part of the story. But it's like, oh, then it's so interesting to have a human dressed like an animal, but they're not playing an animal as we would know it. So it just is. It's. It's doing all these different things there in terms of this meta storytelling. But as you were saying about so much of this is about art. It just automatically makes you think about what they are creating in the story.

>> Guido: Yeah. Yeah. Even he's such a tiny character, and I'm assuming he's a hanna Barbera character, that the. The walrus or the hippo.

>> Rob: The hippo director. Yeah.

>> Guido: He's such a tiny character, but, yeah, his reflections, he has just two brief moments about, like, creating art, and it's just like, he's saying so much in this. There's so much poignancy in these characters about the act of creation and culture and cultural backlash. I mean, it's impossible not to feel the relevancy of this six year old book even more today, which is also what makes for good art. You know, is that totally. It's timeless. Like, he's writing this in 2018. I'm sure it's a reaction to post 2016 life in the world and culture, but now, six years later, particularly the homophobia and transphobia and plotline here about queer identity and artists and art elevating story. And, the backlash that gets experienced when art does that is like, oh, my God, this is happening. It's worse now than it was in 2018 when Mark Russell was writing this.

>> Rob: Yeah. And one thing it definitely made me think of, which we both watched, and I'm curious if this influenced your read. Here was the tv show, fellow travelers that came out this year with definitely thinking about Jonathan Bailey, because it is a very much. It's also about the whoac, hearings and also about being gay during that time.

>> Guido: Yeah. In the fifties.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: Well, that's what Mark Russell does so well is the research in this, especially as someone who knows queer history really well. He's. And knows american political history somewhat well, especially that era. And. And the hearings and McCarthyism. The fact that he's able to even situate this in the history of Stonewall is so cool to me, because it's Stonewall. But in 1953. So it's the, it's the mob run, police paid off scenario of Stonewall, where it gets regularly rated, but it hasn't yet been 1969, so there haven't been the Stonewall riots. This is all true, of course, in the 1950s. And then in his final message of this, which is the exact message I always love in my art, which is that snaggle puss fighting is giving everyone else hope. He shows how other gay bars have started to open, and he uses real gay bar examples that did open in the 1950s. And so he's saying, like, even though we haven't won the fight by fighting, we're inspiring other people. It makes me really teary because it's so good. It's such a beautiful message. And he's doing it with real history as well as these characters. Like, I don't know how he's doing that. And even using Houack and the McCarthyism and showing just how awful this Senate thing was and how devoid of humanity it is. When you start going after art and you're going after people that you see as deviant from society, all of which is happening right now, like, it's garbage. It's about power and it's about fear, and it's not actually about a free society. And, so he's just using history and these characters in this story so accurately to tell this beautiful story that's very depressing and dark and a little hopeful.

>> Rob: Yeah. I mean, it's making me think like one of the main antagonists of this story is this special counsel for the Senate committee who is this woman who's actually secretly a lesbian, which seems like a stand in for Roy Cohen.

>> Guido: Roy Cohn. There was a fear of litigation from. I mean, Roy Cohn's been dead a long time, but, because he wanted to show a lot of dialogue with his character, I was curious if that's why they didn't go with Cohen, because she definitely Gigi Allen. I looked into it, and I could not find that there was anyone actually named Gigi Allen involved in McCarthyism. So I do suspect she is a stand in because she's supposed to be a hypocrite and she's really just trying to serve this agenda that in her mind is patriotic, but is of course, not, and is horrible and hypocritical.

>> Rob: Because she perhaps it's a bit like making them animals. It just frees it up a little bit more. So it's not like anyone who knows Roy Cohen or has seen angels in America or something just knows how horrible he is. So maybe it's just like, oh, okay. Like it's one step more removed, like, to have it this fictional character, and.

>> Guido: You don't have to give him the flexibility. Yeah.

>> Guido: one more thing on the history. I'm just reminded too, because I looked up Gigi. She didn't seem to be real, but then, as you mentioned, his partner is cuban. And this story then also positions him into the 1958 start of the revolution in Cuba. And it's just, again, like, there's so much detail in here that Russell is using historical knowledge, but in service of a story, it's never, I would never call this comic, a history comic or even a biographical comic or anything like that. But gosh, it's amazing to me how he did that and that he even chose to do that. Mm.

>> Rob: And we're talking a lot about obviously, his contributions. But I just wanted to say about the art, I think it's also really striking in this, I love these kind of bright colors in my comics. This kind of, of course, you've got the fluorescent snagglepuss pink, but those kind of super poppy colors. And I think it's another thing that just kind of goes back to my point of like, oh, you're getting this very difficult story, but you're seeing it in this bright way. So much of what we are shown when we're shown this story, even something unlike, fellow travelers, is everyone's wearing a brown suit and it's very tan walls and all that kind of stuff. So like, this makes it so much more literally colorful and energetic in that way. And I think there's some really moving depictions of the characters throughout, especially the huckleberry hound character and just how he's drawn and depicted in his life.

>> Guido: Well, and Mike Feehan, along with the inkers and colorists who worked on the book, it's such a clean.

>> Guido: Art, which I think both you and I like a lot but then there is also a lot of detail, like when there are a few scenes when he's walking in New York City and Mike Feeon has put in different billboards that are giving you some context. Some of them are satirical, some of them are making a commentary on the world, and then some of them are story based. Like Marilyn Monroe is a character in the story. And we jump ahead a few years and then we see a some like it hot billboard, because that's telling us what year it is and what's happening in the world. So the art is just doing such a good job not just supporting the story, it's doing a good job telling the story. It is as a comic should be. It is a core part of the story with the text and all of that.

>> Rob: So I'm curious if you agree, but I think the arts, and maybe to some extent the writing too, but especially the art, reminds me a bit of the art in Promethea, which we were covering as well. There's something about the brightness and the level of detail.

>> Guido: Yeah, but the detail I just mentioned is also completely.

>> Rob: That's what made me think of Alan.

>> Guido: Moorthing, both top ten and Promethea, his collaborators on that, Gene ha. And then, of course, JH Williams III, are do such a good job with putting in Easter eggs. And sometimes those are coming from Alan, which is why a lot of Alan's work has that. But, yeah, that element is very promethea. And I love things like that where you can really look at it. So, I mean, I cannot recommend it enough, truly. It's emotional and beautiful and interesting and.

>> Rob: And it feels like they're executed exactly the right length, too.

>> Guido: It's six issues, but they're the right, and they're short.

>> Rob: They even have backup stories in them. So, like, you're not, it's not like super long six issues. So it just feels like, oh, this is exactly the right amount of story. Because I know we often ask, would you want to go back to this world? But it's like, oh, this feels like they have that. He and the, other creators spend so much time making sure, okay, this is not going to be one issue too long or too short. All the things that we often see with, like, tv shows these days where it's like, oh, that would have been genius if it was like one episode shorter. But they nailed it with this.

>> Guido: Well, before we move on, I mean, do you want to go back and I'll start because I'm assuming we're going to agree, which is absolutely not. It is perfect.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: But since this came out, I've read every single Mark Russell comic there is. And I will continue to do that because every world almost feels like an extension of this. This is quintessential Mark Russell storytelling in terms of the social commentary, satire. Sometimes with humor, sometimes with darkness, always with an emotional center. Even at one point a plot. A character in this comic. I don't know if you've caught this. I loved this quote where he says something like, people, seem to forget that it's not the plot that's the most important thing. It's the characters.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: His father is dying, I think. And I was like, oh, my God, that is so true. And so good in this. Anyway, so I don't want to go back to this world. It's perfect as is. How about you?

>> Rob: No. Agreed. As I said, I think I think it's perfect as is. And as you mentioned, there are other stories that are, adjacent to this one. Which I think is the way to approach this. Like, leave this be and let's do something similar. But also probably completely different with other characters from this catalog. Well, we don't want to go back to this world. But we do want to ponder some possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted? Diverted. Averted. So, Guido, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?

>> Guido: Well, this was so good, and it's not been followed up. There's not a sequel. There's not another character. He doesn't pop up somewhere. So I think we can just chat. There has been, apparently, a snaggle puss cartoon voiced by Jim Parsons in development. we could talk about that and what we would want it to be. But I also want to talk about this question of this experiment or exercise what Mark Russell did here. And are there ways to do this with other Hanna Barbera characters or do we even like this idea? Do we think it should be happening more taking a character and totally transplanting it into, transposing it into a completely different world, completely different story? so, yeah. Where do you want to start?

>> Rob: Well, I think the great thing about these kind of characters is and maybe better than the Looney Tunes maybe it actually benefits from the fact that you don't know the characters as, totally a benefit Bugs Bunny.

>> Guido: I absolutely agree. Yeah.

>> Rob: Because you could do both. And I would love to see both. I would love to see, like, these characters, like, snagglepuss reinvented with, like, a snagglepuss esque cartoon where he's just, like, unabashedly gay, but it's just fun and for kids and for adults and then at the same time, like, spending more time in a world like this, exploring other characters in the serious social commentary. And I think it works well because we're not as used to familiar with these characters as we are with Mickey Mouse.

>> Guido: Yeah, I think it definitely benefits from being recognizable and yet not being something that we know a lot about or have a lot of expectations for. I think that's what helps it work and frees it up a bit is that we don't have expectations because we don't know so much about them in terms of a cartoon revival. I agree. It'd be fun. Like, if it's for kids, great. I won't watch it. But I don't really care. Like, good that it's out there for people. For some reason, in my mind, I was thinking about Harley Quinn M and wondering if that would work and not to adapt the Mark Russell series. I do not want that adapted. I don't think it should be. But inspired by this Mark Russell series, I was just thinking, like, all right, well, what if you took this character, put it in an adult only animated show that could live in the world of Hanna Barbera like Mark Russell does here, and sort of make fun of it and play with it in the way that Harley does in the DC world? So.

>> Rob: Yeah, I can totally see that. I think that's the nice flexibility where you could do something for kids or for adults. And, Jim Parsons is a southern gay man, so, hey, if it's Jim Parsons that, that works for this character.

>> Guido: Yeah, I agree. I agree. So zooming out. I mean, do you think, do you, do you like stories that do this? Do you think there's another Hanna Barbera property that lends itself to this or maybe a non Hanna Barbera that you've thought about? Hey, what if we took this and did this?

>> Rob: Well, the first one that came to mind from Hanna Barbera world would be something with Yogi Bear and deforestation, climate change, something like that, because that is definitely such an issue. And a character that, yes, they're all animals, but he is a character, an animal character that actually lives in the woods, unlike these other characters that kind of live in little cities. So I could see something like that that's covering that with, covering those issues with that character. What, what about you?

>> Guido: I think that for some reason, and there was, in the Hanna Barbera beyond, there was a, Jetsons comic, but it, it doesn't, it's, it's good. It doesn't sort of do this. And I feel like those characters, for some reason, to me, stand out as characters you could transplant, I guess, because they're from the future. You can make a lot of commentary with that on something. I don't know what, but bring them to today or bring them to the 1980s or, like, you could bring them different places to make some sort of commentary. And I think that would be an interesting thing to use. And then, of course, I go to the weird stuff. Like, I loved the snorks. Do you even know what the snorks are?

>> Rob: They had the things on their heads and they were like little sea uncles.

>> Guido: Floated through the sea and had the little. Yeah. spouts on their head. They had like, 13 episodes, I think, when I was researching. So, like, I would. That did not get dealt with in the Hanna Barbera and beyond DC relaunch. So that could, you know, take them or certainly, I mean, I think people have done this in a comedic parody sort of way, but, like, the Smurfs and the, you know, look at gender in the Smurfs world, like, yes, there are lots of ways that the Smurfs can, can be social commentary, so.

>> Rob: Mm

>> Guido: Yeah.

>> Rob: Well, that was making me think even when you said the Jetsons, because is there a story to be told where it's in the future and they're advanced, but actually they seem so backwards in terms of like, oh, the guy, the.

>> Guido: Husband works progressive gender politics.

>> Rob: Yeah. And then the boy is smart and the daughter is ditzy. Like, it could be something almost to play there. And they got a robot, does the robot then, like, gets sentience and tries to kill them? I guess she already has that for sure.

>> Guido: Of course. Rosie is totally going after them. Yeah, I have no doubt about that. In fact, the COVID for Mark Russell's not all robots has one of the robots looks a lot like Rosie and is serving the family dinner. and, of course, it's a bit of a horror comic that ends up happening. So it's quite fun that it's Rosie. Yeah. So I think there is a lot of possibility here. I think that they did some of it in some of their other titles, DC and I. I wish they would revisit it. I don't know if obviously, sales were strong enough to support this project for three years and across a bunch of miniseries, but not strong enough to continue. Either that or maybe they're getting ready to do a big hanna Barbera for kids launch and they didn't want this to sort of confuse people or muddy things and they cancelled it. I'm really not sure why. We haven't seen a resurgence of these things, but I think it's great and I think it's one of the extremely few. There are very few valuable opportunities presented by mega corporate monoliths who own 400 different sub companies and devour a third of the market. Those are not good things that I do not support. But one of the rare silver linings is this. This, ah, wouldn't have necessarily happened or been so sharp or clever if this was a license. Then you have the licensor and the licensee having to agree. You'd need Hanna Barbera to sign off on the snaggle puss. You'd need DC to be willing to go there. Like, I don't think it would happen. And the fact that Hanna Barbera is a part of Warner Brothers with DC means they can take a few more risks, I think. So. It is one of the, again, incredibly few benefits to m monopolies.

>> Rob: And DC seems to be so much more open to it than some of their other companies. When you look at the various Batman movies and the Todd Phillips Joker movies, and, like, they're very willing to take a character and just go like, okay, we're gonna do, like, the, this version of it and that version of it, and then also have the kid version of it and like, it can all be out there. And this is a version of that as well.

>> Guido: Yeah. I mean, really, with the exception of the Patton Oswalt MODok tv series, I'd say Marvel does not do this. And even now, Marvel's starting to do crossovers with their different properties. They're all deadly serious, which is fine when you have predator versus Black Panther or predator versus Wolverine. Like, that should be deathly serious. Great. But they're doing a whole bunch of stuff now with the Disney characters. I'm excited for it. It's going to be fun. There's a little, there's what ifs, which maybe one day we'll cover. Like Donald Duck is Thor or Donald Duck gets the Infinity gauntlet. But they're doing it seriously. They're honoring these characters. They're not playing with them in the way that this project played with these characters. And, I much prefer the creativity that comes from challenging and asking questions and playing with things. So highly recommend this series. If you haven't read it, go read it. I can't say it enough. Go read it. Don't come listen to episode 137 of Dear Watchers in two weeks until you've read this series. Not that we're gonna be talking about it again, but that's your homework.

>> Rob: And it's Pride month, so it's a good month to read it.

>> Guido: It is a great month to reread it. Or reread it. If you've read it, reread it, because you will get more out of it. Just as we were discussing with our current world, you will definitely get more out of it. So that is otherwise a wrap. Dear Watchers, thank you for listening and happy pride. I have been Guido Puss, I have.

>> Rob: Been Snaggle Rob, and our reading.

>> Guido: List is in the show notes. You can follow us online at Dear Watch.

>> Rob: Leave us a five star review wherever you listen to podcasts, and we'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse in the words rodu.

>> Guido: Keep pondering the possibilities, even.