Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

>> Rob: She's got superpowers. But will she survive high school? You'll find out on Dear Watchers in Omniversal comic book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

>> Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up on the vese of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey are Me, Selena. I'm gonna be Selena. I just want to be. I'll be Faye Dunaway, but I can't remember. She has no lastug name, which is strange. But she does say at some point she's like part of the gods of Eron or, I don't know, some made up stuff. So. But yeah, okay, I'be. I'll be Madam M. Selena.

>> Rob: Well, I'm gonna take off my brown wig to reveal my naturally blonde hair. It's me, Rob.

>> Guido: I thought you would make a much better Brenda Vacaro.

>> Rob: Come on. Oh yeah. Hello. Helloo. It's me, Ron.

>> Guido: Exactly.

>> Rob: Well, before we begin our trip to the comic book store and the multiplex, geto what's new in our little section of the multiverse?

>> Guido: Happy summer. It's the summer, and it's the superhero summer we've been warning everyone about for so long. And this will be the start of it, I think, because yeah, we've got Superman very soon from when we're recording and releasing this episode. And then we have Fantastic Four, of course, and we'll have some great themed episodes for those properties. And this is kind of the start of it. And we'll get more into where Supergirl might show up down the road after we dive in. This episode comes from inspiration because we just screened Supergirl last night. Yes. We shared a few episodes back with people that we have a company in upstate New York, Sleepover Trading Company that does lots of screenings. And Supergirl was our screening last night. So that was one side of the inspiration. And then the other was a Friends comic store that he opened in Troy, New York, called Cromulent Comics. And he happened to have these wild Supergirl imaginary stories that I had just been reading about. And so it all came together on literally the same day. We got the issue that I had read about and thought about and we screened the movie and it was like, just meant to be.

>> Guido: It was like the omegahedron brought it us all together.

>> Rob: And I was going toa say, and also we've been super busy, so we were like, what can we do where we've already seen the movie. But if you are joining us here on Deer Watchers for the first time, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today. Origins of the story, exploring multiversity and pondering possibilities.

>> Guido: So thanks for coming along and remember, don't be a Selena and leave us a five star of you on social media. You can find us at Deer Watchers. Wherever you're listening, please leave a review. Thank you.

>> Rob: With that, welcome to episode 163 and let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travels today's alternate universe. Today we are super haa exciting.

>> Guido: Is that is basic. That is basic. But what are we super excited to hear?

>> Rob: Well, we're super excited to answer the question, what if Supergirl was dead and able to be amongst other dead people like Joan of Arc and Abraham Lincoln.

>> Guido: And Isaac Newton.

>> Rob: And Isaac Newton, yes.

>> Guido: So we have discussed Supergirl sort of on the periphery once, way back in episode 75 years ago, with our wonderful guest Tim Hantley, who we really need to have back soon when we talked DC Bombshells, but we did not dive into her dcu Earth prime origin. We also briefly talked about her and her super pets and her horse when we talked about Lois's relationship with a horse.

>> Rob: She's got lots of pets.

>> Guido: She does. That was in episode 156 from earlier this year. But we have not covered Supergirl. We have also not covered this imaginary Earth. It is also known as the negative Earth, aka Earth383. It was. I, found out about it because it was in a recent issue of Back Issue magazine. That's issue 159 from June 2025, which is all about the 40th anniversary of crisis on Infinite Earth. It's an incredible issue. And John Wells in that issue writes an article going through all of the DC Multiverse prior to Crisis on Infinite Earths. And that's where I read about this very strange issue that we're going to cover. And there is only one appearance of this Earth 383. So we've got it all here for you today.

>> Rob: Kind of sounded like it was a reoccurring thing. This is just a one off.

>> Guido: No. And once we describe it to everyone, I think it'll be clear why it's not a reoccurring thing.

>> Rob: Well, we, as you said, we've kind of talked about her in the periphery. But Guido, what is your background with Supergirl?

>> Guido: Well, I love her and I'm not. She's not like my number one comic book character in dc, but I do love Her. I haven't read every one of her issues, though I love her primarily through the movie. So probably unusual for most people, but I will talk a lot about this movie, but I watched this movie, one of probably the top three movies I watched the most as a child. Even watching it again at our screening last night. I can remember every beat of this movie, and it just makes me love Supergirl. I think it does a really good job of that for all of its flaws. And after that, my first introduction to her is probably in the Death of Superman, when she's actually the Matrix. It's actually not even Supergirl. It's that weird blob of clay. You know, she's not really Supergirl. I don't know if you remember that.

>> Rob: not really. But yeah.

>> Guido: And so. And then. Then there's a great run Peter David does that I went back and read because I love Peter David. But so anyway, I love her, but I don't consume all of her comics really, until the last few years. And so I'm a big fan of the character, but I can't say I'm a huge fan of the comics, which is unusual for me and unusual for our discussions. I'm, not, well versed in her very confusing and complicated history, some of which we'll scratch the surface of today. But I really do love her, largely because of this movie. What about you? What is your background with Supergirl, also known as Superman's cousin?

>> Rob: Well, for a character that's, I meann, say, pretty big. I mean, not in, like, the top echelon of DC characters, but, like, right under that, I'd say not. I'm not super familiar with her.

>> Guido: Super. You just said super again. And that was unintentional.

>> Rob: That was unintentional. See my head. I may have had, like, one or two random issues. Maybe it's from the Peter David run that you're mentioning, but never read it. I never saw the movie, which is strange because it definitely feels like the kind of movie that would have aired on wp.

>> Guido: No, it was very hard to watch. They, They really buried it for a long time.

>> Rob: Yeah, So I never saw that. And then actually, when I was doing research for our screening, I was actually kind of surprised at how hard it was to find Supergirl clips outside of the movie. Like, she was not a character that popped up on Super Friends, for example, not have, like, the superpowers line of action figures. And then later, like, when Death of Superman era and like, Superman'exploded I found, like, of course Toys for steel, for the leather jacket, Superboy. Like, there's so much of that content out there and that toys, things that.

>> Guido: Were created f promotions.

>> Rob: Totally.

>> Guido: Ah, yeah.

>> Rob: And she is completely absent from all of it, which is odd because like, it was like Superman mini Superman mania again at that time and she is not there. So I think that's one of the reasons why she was never really someone I even really knew about until like the TV show. I would say, like the WB TV show.

>> Guido: She's definitely one of the more significant characters that has almost no, exposure. You know, I'm not saying that clearly, but we talk a lot on this show. Even sometimes when we talk about like from Wonder Woman through to Betty Boop in our last episode. Like these, these people who are iconic and have images, but people don't necessarily know stories or no details about them. They just know the image. And Supergirl is a really good example where it's not even that people don't know it. It's that there's very little. There's very. She is literally just the concept of the character is out there, but there's actually not even a whole lot about her until really the last 20 years. There's not merchandise like you're saying. There's not a lot. So.

>> Rob: And perhaps people. She's only know her there because she has the same power set as Superman. So it's.

>> Guido: And the same outfit. I think that helps a lot.

>> Rob: She like. Yeah, you just know who it is because it's like, oh, that's a female Superman. That's basically it for a lot of evil.

>> Guido: Yeah. Well, we'll explore all of that and more.

>> Rob: Yes. When? Well, right now. It'origins of the story.

>> Guido: Right now on this very show, you're.

>> Rob: Gonna get the answer to all your questions.

>> Guido: Our amazing story begins a few years ago.

>> Rob: Well, like you kind of hinted at Gido, she has a long, complicated history, as many of these DC characters do. So we're not gonna get into the ins and outs of her.

>> Guido: Why she changes her name to Linda Danvers. No Lind ye touch that.

>> Rob: But we do want to share a little bit of backstory on the character. So while Ka Zorl is Supergirl, there are actually a few prototype versions of female Superman Superman that preate the character's introduction in 1959. So Lois Lane gets powers. Of course, Lois was always, always something was happening to Lois. And Gene don'a Superman esque outfit in at least two issues, including one in 1951 where she wears a blonde wig. So she's got a reverse wig situation going on. Then in 1949, there's a story entitled Superboy meets Supergirl, where Superboy meets the Queen Lucy, who gets this nickname, Supergirl.

>> Guido: But it's Super Dash Girl, at least on the Internet.

>> Rob: That's a later one. This is that.

>> Guido: Oh, that's not that one one.

>> Rob: No, no. So this is just regular Supergirl. And then in some Silver Age silliness on one occasion. And of course we will probably have to cover this one day, Superboy is transformed into a girl and adopts the name Claire Kent. But like, she's decked out in the Supergirl outfit. And actually the moral of the story is Clark learns to respect women more. That's what it said.

>> Guido: Wellow, that didn't stick, as we know well.

>> Rob: And finally, and this is probably the most important one, in August 1958, Jimmy uses a magic totem to wish and create a Super Dash Girl into existence. Unfortunately, this Supergirl is almost killed and then she's wished out of existence by Jimmy. And DC actually used this story in 58 to gauge public response to the concept of creating a completely new female counterpart to Superman. And in fact she has blonde hair and her costume is actually very similar to Helen Slater's costume that was worn in the Supergirl film.

>> Guido: And most of her stories and her creation, for the Supergirl that we all know and love were credited to Otto Binder.

>> Rob: And Otto actually also wrote most of those ones that I just mentioned to.

>> Guido: He was trying out some ideas.

>> Guido: He had also created Mary Marvel, Captain Marvel's sister, and he created Miss America, the female Captain America for Marvel. So he maybe had a thing he was into doing, which is just create the same character, but make it a girl. And when Supergirl debuted, she received a positive response. She would appear as backups in Action Comics regularly and then does get her own series. She's a part of Superman'family and all of that. She does start as Linda Lee, then later Linda Danvers, something that tries to get retconned and reconciled years later after graduating from college. She also is a counselor and a news reporter and an actor in a soap opera. So she has all sorts of careers. But at the end of the day, it's her heroism that we know and love her for. So why don't we dive into her origin issue?

>> Rob: Yes, this is action comics number 252 from DC Comics from May 1959, and it's entitled the Supergirl from Krypton, written.

>> Guido: By Otto Binder, pencilled by Al Plino, inked by Al Paino and edited by Mort Weissisinger. And we have discussed Binder before. He's written more than, 4,000 comic books, including the first imaginary tale for Lois Lane and just a DC legend. And Pastino co created the legion of superheroes and had a long career in comic strips. So this is her debut appearance. Shes introduced how she arrives and her origin is explained through her just telling Clark, or Superman how she got there. And then we get introduced to her powers when she lives at the orphanage in all of these ridiculous ways. And thats basically it. Thats the whole introductory story to Supergirl. So did anything surprise you in reading this?

>> Rob: Well, what surprised me, I think, and obviously we're going to talk about the Supergirl movie later in this episode, but having just rewatched the movie, that there, there's some elements of the movie that are here in terms of that she is a survivor of Krypton that they kind of like broke off from the rest of Krypton. And that's never really explained in the movie, but here, like, it's explained that like, this broke off. There was like oxygen still around it. But the problem was that it is now becoming Kryptonite. And there's all this other kind of stuff that happens with like, they pour lead and all this. But like, I was actually kind of surprised that that portion of then the movie actually does have its basis in this very first issue from 59.

>> Guido: And it's been retconned a lot in the DCU. So I was surprised to read it too, and see it's sort of simple, but also sort of convoluted in a way that I like, like you were just describing. So what happens is, I don't even remember how, but the chunk of Krypton that they end up being able to survive on starts to convert to Kryptonite. And so they have to put lead down in order to live, which is how it explains that Supergirl is so much younger than Superman, even though Krypton had exploded. So all these people, including her parents, continue to live, but then meteorites hit their chunk of planet and start to break the lead coating. And so they're all dying and they have to send her out in a lead ship so that she won't die. So it's, it's just, I don't know. I like it. There's something about it that I really liked a lot. It's again, it's, complicated and rehashing Superman, but In a very unique way, I felt. So I like her origin in that way.

>> Rob: And well, the funky thing though there is that they, when they need to send her out, they need to find a place to center and they get like a big telescope and they're able to see that, that Superman is on Earth. And they think, well, let's cent her there because.

>> Guido: Because she'll get powers there too.

>> Rob: She'll get powers there because they hear that he's also from Krypton. But it's interesting that like this entire time, like, did no one look in the telescope up to this point? Like, no one knew that there was also.

>> Guido: Well, I guess they were fine. I guess they figured, like, no, I guess they figured there's no other survivors and we've got our little chunk of planet. Who cares up until they were all dying. So yeah, interesting origin there on that side. And then Superman puts her in an orphanage and disguises her in a brunette wig of pigtails. And she goes by Linda Lee. And we find out she has all the same powers as Superman because she's cleaning her room with them, which is the most Supergirl esque thing possible. And I mean that in terms of. All these early Silver age Supergirl stories are just ridiculous attempts at being like quote unquote girl comics where like that's, that's her conflict is like, oh, I have to fix my broken mirror. I'm go goingna use my heat vision. Which doesn't even make sense from a physics standpoint. So. Well, there's.

>> Rob: There's two things there that I'd love to address. One is she just. We don't really know why, but she just randomly chooses this name Linda Lee. And there's this great panel of Superman where he like, she says like, I'm gonna be Linda Lee. And he even goes something like, u, oh, okay. Like. And then Superman has a thought bubble saying like, my first girlfriend was Lana Lang and my new girlfriend is. Or whatever she is, is Lois Lane. And somehow she doesn't even know those people. And she chose ll. It's like, I don't know, it almost feels like this was. And we talked about this with some previous, like, Otto Beindnderriitten ones where most of it is very sincere. But this almost feels like his commentary on the ridiculousness of some of these.

>> Guido: Comics though, the way it's written it. It almost. And this is not the case, but it almost feels like he's setting up a reveal. Like it's a weird. It's. It's because it's written sincerely. It doesn't feel very, like, meta or tongue in cheek, which plenty of these Silver Age stories were. It just feels like. Because the ends of the do, dot, dot. I think that's what's throwing me is like, Superman's thought is like, she chose this dot, dot. Like, as if there's something else there. So I don't know.

>> Rob: Will I start dating her next?

>> Guido: Well, he will in another imaginary story that we are going to at some point for sure read, but we're not talking about today.

>> Rob: So, the other point I wanted to make there, too, is you mentioned the disguise too, because, like, of course, Superman famously has, like, these glasses, and obviously it's become like a joke, but and just kind of accepted as okay, whatever. He puts on these glasses and he. Everyone thinks he's someone else. But here, like, Kara has, like, a brown wig. Like, it's actually like, a much bigger, better disguise. Like, do you think this was like, Otto in 1959 saying, well, we just can't have glasses. That's, like, too silly. That's like the 30s. Like, ah, @ least, like, let's properly disguise her. Or is it because she's a girl and they want to do?

>> Guido: I do think it has something to do with that because there's even a page in one of the later issues that's like, write in andoose, choose Kara's new hairstyle. So I think that they were going for the fashion solution, to some extent. I mean, maybe he didn't want to copy Clark's glasses. And how many options are there? If you're talking about a simple way to disguise someone's, like, head appearance. It's really between glasses and, like, you're not going toa give her a fake mustache or a fake nose or something. Would be weird for the artist to have to draw differently every time. So I think a wig makes sense. So I don't know if it's a commentary so much as it's just what. What they came up with and thought made sense for a girl.

>> Rob: Well, let's jump 10 years into the future for exploring multiversity.

>> Guido: I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if? So in those 10 years, she is in countless imaginary stories. It's actually odd to me how many of her appearances start to play with reality. I think it has a lot to do with the Silver Age, but it might have to do with this. Again, attempt at, like, quote unquote girl comics and what they were trying to do with her. So this is not her first imaginary story. She's in Superman's girlfriend, Lois Lane. Classic imaginary stories, as we all know, and Superman's pal Jimmy Olsen a number of times. But this is the one that we landed on. So what was that?

>> Rob: This is AdvNure Comics 383 from. And you could have read this if you were going to Woodstock, August 1969.

>> Guido: Clearly inspired by that. The hippie movement. Right.

>> Rob: Reading that in the mud. this story is called Please Stop My Funeral.

>> Guido: I do love that title.

>> Rob: Stop for My Mom Will Shoot. And the question we're asking is, what if Supergirl was dead and able to be amongst other dead people like Joan of Arc and Abraham Lincoln and, Sir Isaac Newton too.

>> Guido: So this is written by Robert Ker, Penciled byy Mortimer, inked by Murphy Anderson, edited by Mort Weissisinger still the COVID art is by Kurttswan O Neil Adams. Ker is really famous DC person we've talked about who continued Wonder Woman after William Moulton Marston for 20 years and co created Barry Allen when Mortimer was a main artist on Superman from the 40s to the 70s, including the comic strip. So quickly, do you want a little setup before we dig in? Because. Yes, we'll explain the, the pacing of the story to everyone before we dig in, but what do you got?

>> Rob: Well, after a UFO she was stopping explodes, Supergirl appears to be a ghost and witnesses her own funeral. But is she really dead?

>> Guido: Yeah. So to explain what's going on. Well, I won't explain what's going on yet. That will be, I think, the majority of our conversation. But most of the story is her trying to figure out what is happening. And in order to figure out what's happening, well, first, I don't even know why, but she ends up in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. After seeing her funeral and not knowing why she's witnessing her own funeral, she ends up in Gettysburg and sees Abraham Lincoln. And then there's all these really weird historical details put in. Like she's pieced together that she didn't travel through time because Abraham Lincoln there was an accident. So convoluted. This is one of those ones that's plotted by, like, someone throwing darts at something. There's a stand of the, audience attending Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, but it's collapsing and she helps to save it. But of course, no one can see her or hear her. And she realizes that never happened in history, so she's not traveled to the past. And then he refers to, like Grant's battles in the past and she doesn't know why that's happening. So then she decides to go to France because Napoleon should be in power. It's very strange.

>> Rob: Yeah, well, so. So we should back up a bit. So, yeah, she tries to stop this ufo. Actually, by the way, before she tries to stop the ufo, she also blows a piece of dust out of a little girl's eye. I forgot that part.

>> Guido: It's so ridiculous. I have no idea why that is. How she's gonna use her powers is she doesn't even blow it out. She like sort of sucks it out.

>> Rob: Sucks out.

>> Guido: She like uses her super breath in reverse because there's a tiny piece of dust and this poor girl is tearing up because of.

>> Rob: Excuse me, little girl, I'm gonna suck on your eye for a second. Y'so weird. She sucks on this girl's eye and then there's a UFO that's chasing like a US spaceship. Who cares? And she goes to stop it, but the UFO has self destruct. It blows up and she thinks, oh, okay, I'm fine. And then like she sees Clark and he's on his way to a funeral. He's wearing all black. And of course she gets there and she thinks like, oh no. She realizes it's like a scrooge moment. Oh, it's my funeral. And Batman's. And Batman's there and everything. So yeah, this, this part of it for me, Gido had like, until like we get to the next part. Had a very like Tales from the Crypt kind of like astonishing, tales thing. Like there's so many stories there, right, where like, someone is suddenly like at their own funeral and they. There might be a ghost.

>> Guido: Yeah. And that's what's neat. Reading this in the context of the early days of the multiverse. Like it wouldn't have been obvious. Obviously it was apparent to us that in that explosion she got transported to another Earth. But if you were reading this at the time, you might not have realized that. And you were thinking like, oh, what is the twist? What is going on here? Yeah, like a Twilight Zone type thing. But of course we discover that she's on this other Eartheah.

>> Rob: Well, and then basically to get away from her funeral because she's so upset, she flies away. And then I guess she thinks like, oh no, now I've journeyed back in time because I've flown that much. And she's at Gettysburg and then she's at Jonan of Arc and then she's at Isaac Newton.

>> Guido: Well, so we didn't mention yet Joan of Arc. So y. So again, she goes to France thinking Napoleon's in power, which I can't quite make sense of. But, like, that's why she goes to France and she encounters Joan of Arc, but she's confident she's not in the 15th century, so she still hasn't figured out what's happening. And then when she happens upon Isaac Newton, he is helping the Chinese figure out how to make a rocket launcher.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: So he's using his, I guess, sense of gravity. They're using their expertise with firecrackers. And she's like, this never happened. So still she hasn't totally figured out what is going on.

>> Rob: Yes. No. And. And then the rocket actually hits her.

>> Guido: Right.

>> Rob: And she then wakes up and she's back where she started. And, like, it blew her out of this negative dimension.

>> Guido: Right. She's back on our Earth with still no explanation, but we all now realize she's back on our Earth. And then you get the two final panels of an explanation where she somehow realizes what happened. And it is so convoluted.

>> Rob: Yeah, yeah. And then. Well, then her cousin Clark shows up piloting a helicopter because that's also something that he does. And. And, yeah, that this was all, like, a negative world. So in this world, everyone who was. So what is it again? Guido? It's like everyone who was a dead. That I can'even.

>> Guido: Now, I have reread it countless times, and I can't make sense of it. It's something like. So it's this. Earth 383 is tied to Earth 1, which, at the time is the prime Earth is Earth One. And anyone who dies in Earth One, their counter self in 383 somehow becomes like a negative apparition. Or like. Or the Earth itself is negative. And when you die, you become M positive, and people can't see you. Like, I don't know. I can't make sense of it. And it also then doesn't explain why Abraham Lincoln's giving the Gettysburg address, but it's 1969. Or it's contemporary to this story.

>> Rob: Why I see that she does say.

>> Guido: That she's all immortal.

>> Rob: Breaks the well. No, no. She goes back in time. Like, she's. She's running so far from her funeral and so fast that she, like.

>> Guido: No, but Joan of Arc does not overlap, like, all of these things.

>> Rob: Then she will overlap again. And she thinks she's gonna be running to France, like, at the same time. That's why she thinks Napoleon will be There. But if that.

>> Guido: She runs so fast, you'making sen. Yeah, but then Isaac Newton's working with the Chinese to make rocket launchers, like people in China. So I don't. There's something that doesn't make sense about. You have this Earth where when someone dies on Earth one, they become this sort of apparition, but then I guess she's just encountering these weird worlds of these apparitions, and I guess I don't fully understand either. Like, when she dies, she comes over so they can't see her. I don't know. I can't. I still can't make sense of it. And I've read it, repeatedly.

>> Rob: My question for you is. So it actually starts before kind of all the action starts. She's actually in history class, and there's, like, a history question that she answers and gives, like, facts. Do you think that there was. Or do you know if there was an educational requirement or something? Because the whole thing with, like, there's Abraham Lincoln and, like, there's a little. She gives a little bit of information about him. Like, the whole thing felt like this was trying.

>> Guido: I mean, that might have been an attempt to appeal to, I don't know, parents or something. I have no idea. I mean, it's 1969, so we're well past the seduction of the innocent Frederick Worrtham era. We're well past. I mean, we're still in the Silver Age Kookiness of dc, but, like, we're past the heart of it. So I have no idea that they could be. Yes. Making that decision, but they're not being.

>> Rob: Forced to make that decision because I was thinking, like, oh, and maybe because, like, she's a girl, like, they wanted to make it more educational, un. Less.

>> Guido: I mean, that could be true from a marketing standpoint. Like, maybe they determined that the adventure comics title with Supergirls should have these stories in it. I really. I still really can't make sense of the story. It'it's. Probably the first episode in 163 episodes where I cannot make sense of this other Earth or the question play here.

>> Rob: Both of us had this experience reading it. It just kind of ends. And I actually thought. I went to the next page and there was a new story that was starting, and I was thinking, oh, so this story must, like, continue after that second story. It's just a weird way that they did the book and it's like, no, wait, it doesn't continue. And it's like, oh, wait, it all wraps up in literally half A page. The other half of the page is an ad for something. The whole thing wraps up in literally half a page after she sees Isaac Newton. So it feels like this very rushed ending that they kind of just like threw on there.

>> Guido: Yeah. So it's very strange. A very high concept. Not executed well but now.

>> Rob: But the oneing cover'executed really well because I laughed out loud is a moment with Streaky, the cat.

>> Guido: So it is. Is the highlight of the issue earlier.

>> Rob: So she's got this cat and the cat first scares away a bunch of dogs. And then. But then what were the dogs on? The dogs were standing on a picture of Supergirl. Somehow. There's just a picture of Supergirl in an alley. The dogs were standing on it because.

>> Guido: In this world, she died, right? She d grieving her.

>> Rob: Streaky turns over the cat over the picture. We can EAS even hear Streaky's thoughts as well, which is also, like a weird thing. And Streaky can't see Supergirl, who's there watching this. And then we just get this one panel of streaky, just like cr_ying cats I don't would imagine. I'm not an animal expert, but I don't think they can actually cry in real life. But it's just like Streaky is just bawling looking at this picture, a black and white picture of Supergirl that I did laugh out loud.

>> Guido: Yeah, it is a highlight from an otherwise, strange but brief issue. Can't recommend it, but I can't say it was painful, to read, that's for sure. So I don't think either of us need to go back to Earth383. Unless someone wants to explain it to me and have it make sense, then maybe I'd consider a revisit to Earth383.

>> Rob: Well, throw on your flowing, witchy kftans.

>> Guido: Guido, because it's time for some maden Selena.

>> Rob: That is possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted, Diverted, Diverted togeito? What are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?

>> Guido: Well, we are keeping our rule of chronological order, but we are going to live very far in the past. 41 years in the past, to be precise. And talk about Supergirl the Motion Picture 1984, because it's a great. Another version of Supergirl for us to discuss. And we know that the Supergirl film has completed filming and is coming out next year, 2026. So there's a lot to think about in terms of the new DC Universe. But let's look at the 1984 DC Universe on film with Supergirl.

>> Rob: Supergirl the motion picture from 1984. It was produced by the Sulkins, who had produced the previous Superman movies, distributed originally by Tri Star and then by Warner Brothers, who of course had released the earlier films, who had acquired it back decades later.

>> Guido: Yes. And the movie is directed by Jano Zark. Sure. Play is by David Odell, and it stars Helen Slater, Fay Daway, and a whole bunch of other people, but those are the only two that you really need to know. Maybe Brenda Viara, but that's it. There is a single issue adaptation, comic book of the movie that is incredibly faithful to the script of the movie. So we are gonna, talk about the movie, but that adaptation actually has amazing art by GRY Marrow. It's written by Joey Cavalier, but amazing art by Grey Marrow. But we are going to talk about the movie, which you had never seen until I made you watch it a few years back. And then last night was probably your second time seeing it.

>> Rob: Well, I want to mention one of the creators real quick. So, David o'ell, who's the writer, and, like, this is not someone whose name you know a lot, but Guido, especially for you. He, like, sculpted your childhood. So Emmy nominated for the Muppet show and uncredited writer of the Muppet Movie. And then he wrote the Dark Crystal and the Masters of the Universe movie. These are, like two things. Like, you literally have tattoos of on your body. So David o'ell was like, that integral to your life somehow.

>> Guido: Yes, that he is. And, yeah. And then he directed Martians go home in 1990.

>> Rob: Oh, well, that's your next too, right there.

>> Guido: Randy Quain. So, yeah, yeah, I mean, it has good pedigree. the Peter O'Toole.

>> Rob: I mean, like, you know, the actors are high quality.

>> Guido: The, the budget was low. Ish. But for the time, not that low. At 35 million, the movie only brought in 14 million globally. So it was a total failure. A, complete and utter failure. And there's a lot of reasons why. It sounds like. We tried to read some backstory, and the Salkins were having issues with Warner Brothers at the time, so Warner backed out. That's why TriStar distributed it. But by having that happen, distribution was really spotty. Apparently the VHS came out in Japan while the movie was being released in theaters so people could watch it. And that was the extended version, which makes a little bit more sense than the non extended version. I love. We read Ilya Salkin said that, Janau was too nice and they that made the movie pretty weak in her mind because she said they had some great conflicts with Richard Donner and Richard Lester, and that made those movies stronger, whereas they had no conflicts here. And so the movie was kind of weak. And then, of course, ChrisOphereves was supposed to be in it, and that was a huge part. And David o'ell has said that the script never was fixed after they had to rip out all of the Superman cameo stuff because it sounds like it was actually going to be a little more than a cameo at various times, and they never fixed those holes.

>> Rob: And there's all this stuff then in the movie ultimately, where, like, she knows all this stuff about Clark, and, like, you kind of like it kind of like, well, how does she. It's never explained as, like, how she knows who Clark Ken is. And yet there's other things. Like, she actually is rooming with Lois Lane's sister, but has never heard of Lois Lane. So she knows who Clark is. She knows he works at the Daily Planet, but she's never heard of Lois. So, like, all that, like, screams of like, well, something just is, like, isn't adding up here in terms of, like, the scripts.

>> Guido: There are, I think, what you and I can agree on, and hopefully, our listeners agree, or take this as our review and go watch this, is that for a movie that is very deeply flawed, very flawed, it's still very enjoyable. And it's really strange because it's not one of those movies that's, like, so bad that you're enjoying the mess of it. You're not enjoying the mess of it because the mess is sort of narrative. But all the performances are so good. The production value is great. I think our costume looks great. The special effects are on par with Superman. So the movie, like, it's fun and there's something there. And yet narratively, it is so off and, like, there's so many things that don't make sense. There's motivations that don't make sense. There's questions about how she knows certain things. I love, that, like, three quarters of the way into the movie, she's, like, living on Earth. She's figured out how to use a typewriter to fake her reference letter to live at the orphanage. And then all of a sudden, like, someone says something about catching a train, and she goes, what's a train? And it's just so absurd. It's so stupid. It's like she. She. Does she know how humans live or not? Like, you can't have it both ways. That she knows to go eat at Popeyes, to go meet her friends at Popeyes'chickens There's a lot of she doesn't.

>> Rob: Know what to tr. There's lot of a. And root beer. There's Yeah'so weird. One of the flaws of the movie and I think Helen Slater is certainly, you know, good in the movie, but I think one of the flaws of it is that she doesn't have a distinct characterization as Linda. versus Supergirl. You don't like, that's one of the geniuses, especially of Christopher Reeves'performance in Superman. And Superman 2 is like, Clark is such a different character than Superman and like he'so good at that. And like, you love being with Clark just as much as you love being with the action sequences here. It's like when it's just Linda, it's like o. It's Linda. It's like, like if you don't real she. It's mostly because she doesn't have like any personality. Like.

>> Guido: No, she's like very naive and doe eyed and she's like that as Supergirl too. I mean there's a few good Supergirl like regaining her strength moments, but on the whole, you're right, she's. She's this like very innocent, trying to understand the world and she doesn't have a problem.

>> Rob: Like Clarke's like, fundamental problem as a character is like, I'm in love with Lois and I have to be Superman and I have to keep this secret. Like here, like Supergirl's only motivation is to get back this like MacGuffin device. Basically the Omegaedron. Yeah. But aside from that, like she doesn't have any other like, she has no real like, you know, I guess their.

>> Guido: Other problem is that she has a construction worker that has to be at least 10 years her senior. and she's probably a teenager and he's in love with her because of the magical spell that Selena cast upon him. So that's a problem. That is.

>> Rob: But it, yeah, it'it's not the same, certainly.

>> Guido: M. No. And it doesn't show up as a problem. She sort of just leans into it and then breaks up with him at the end.

>> Rob: Definitely. I think the highlight of this movie, and I'm sure you would agree, are like the three villain characters who are very much like in line with the three villain characters in Superman with like let's Testmaer and Otis.

>> Guido: Oh, I thought you were go goingna say, like Fiora Zod and.

>> Rob: No, like wacky humans. No, no, no. No. Ye y But also, and I'm sure this reminded me. Well, it reminded me of this. It was like, ah. Also it's very Batman 66 because you've got like your main villain and then you've got like the henchman villain who, like, is like wisecracking and then like maybe another and then like a third villain. But Faye Dunaway, Brendana Viaro, and Peter Cook, who are like the three, like, villains of this are definitely the ones having a good time. Very enjoyable. They definitely have the best dialogue in the film by far.

>> Guido: Yes, well, I think what's fun too see, and this is why I thought you love this movie and I think you do love it a bit. But Faye Dunaway's Selena is just, other than some confusing stuff with motivation when she just becomes obsessed with this construction worker. But let's remove that as a narrative flaw. One of the many narrative flaws in the movie, like, she is just your quintessential megalomaniacal, like, mustache twirling villain who. She just wants power to take over the world. And the production leans into this. I mean, at one point she is full on Hitler. She is driving in like a classic German car, clearly down the street with her soldiers all around her. Like, it really is just so they. They just let her be a completely insane villain. And I think that is to its benefit, quite honestly. Again, other than the fact that then she becomes obsessed with having this construction worker love her and not Supergirl, which doesn't make, a whole lot of sense for the character. But.

>> Rob: And I guess we probably don't know because it didn't say this in some of the research you were saying. But why was it this character that they created, why Selena? Like, is it because Supergirl doesn't really have an iconic villain? Like, do you have any sense of why they went ahead and created this character?

>> Guido: Not a clue. But I'll tell you that I'm waiting for her, someone to debut her in the comic book universe. And this run that's currently happening of Supergirl might be it because there is some magic and it feels fitting because.

>> Rob: Seems crazy because there's so many like, Batman 66 villains that then like, got introduced like years later. Right.

>> Guido: And I really have no idea. I guess if they were thinking, we need a human nemesis that cuts your people down. I guess if they were thinking, let's have a little bit of a Lex Luthor. I mean, Faye Dunaway is not a foil to Helen Slater in this. But if they were like, let's have someone who is a human antagonist. Like laser set on Supergirl. Then they did this. I don't know why she's a witch. I don't know why none of this makes sense, but it works. She lives in an abandoned amusement park. It's perfect. Like, y. Who cares?

>> Rob: And like, you know, original movie. It's like we're getting an Oscar winning actor to like, play the part. Like, because the lead is basically was't unknown. So they went like Oscar nominated actor. Oscar winning actor. Oscar nominated actor as the henchman. Like, that's, putting all the pedigree there into the villain area.

>> Guido: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Well. And in her family, I mean, Mia Farrow is her mother. Peter O'Toole is her mentor. I mean, it's like there. Yeah, there are a lot of great people in this and most of them sort of chew the scenery when they're on screen and. And I don't mind it.

>> Rob: And there's one actor, the only actor who kind of provides some continuities. Mark McLure, who is Jimmy Olsen in the Christopher Reeve movies. He does pop up here and he's like the only one that is like, oh, yeah, this is officially a part of a bigger franchise. It's definitely not the kind of thing like, in the MCU world that we have now that would happen because, like, it would be much more tight in than this one tangential character that though.

>> Guido: They do a good job, like they put on the radio or the car radio and Selena's driving that Superman is busy fighting someone in outer space to explain that he's not there. So they're definitely trying to set it in continuity. Canonically. It is being filmed around the time of Superman 3 and it's released after two. It. And it should be. It should be considered canonical with those movies, and it's not. It's never been released in a box set. Ah. With those movies, they've never. Yeah, it's very frustrating because, I don't know. I think we can definitely speculate that there are some sexist arguments to be made here against about how they treat this movie. There are so many wild distribution things because again, Warner was getting pissed at the Selkins and were really angry that they sold the rights off to this and so they cut ties at the time. But Warner got this movie back maybe 15 years ago and have the rights and they've only released it on the Warner archive collection. They haven't even done like a big release of it. And. And it's not terrible. I mean, it's bad, but like, there again, there's something. There's some magic there. It just doesn't work, but it keeps you drawn in for sure.

>> Rob: Would you want to read a Supergirl 84 comic like they've done for Batman and Superman?

>> Guido: Yeah, it's a great idea. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Because it could fix a lot of those plot holes. It could give us more of a sense. I mean, first of all, it could give us Selena in the comics, but it could just give us more of who is Supergirl, what's her relationship to Superman, what. I mean, there's so much about the Phantom Zone in here that's complet and.

>> Rob: Like these shadow demons and stuff that like, really don't get explained at all.

>> Guido: No, all with great special effects too, but they just. Yeah, they make no sense. And so I think a comic could. Could create a little bit of coherence with some of those pieces. Give us a little backstory, give us a little more to them. Tell us what happens after this movie. Because of course, she just leaves with the omegahedron.

>> Rob: Yeah, it.

>> Guido: So I guess she goes back to Argo City. Like, I don't.

>> Rob: And spoiler alert. Like, petro'toole is like, he's then like he's in the Phantom Zone, and then he gets like sucked back into the Phantom Zone, but he's not like, dead. So it feels like that character was also like, oh. And it almost feels like they kept him alive in the movie because, oh, this is going toa be a hit and we need a sequel. And then we'renna bring Peter O'Toole back for like a very Marlon Brando kind.

>> Guido: Well, or one of the cutscenes too, is actually Nigel, Selena's ex. And the warlock, he picks up the container that she was keeping the Omega Heron in, which is like the thing that turns into the demon at the end. And I can't remember what it's called. He. It's on the ground. After Supergirl puts everything back to normal, he picks it up on the ground and walks away with it. So m. That feels like another kind of let's seed a few things around in case this works. I think it was clear by the time it was coming out that it wasn't gonna work, which is probably why there was so little promotional tie in, so little behind it. But there's definitely pieces that feel like they would have been used had this been a franchise in and of itself.

>> Rob: So, yes, the terrifying villain names of Selena, Bianca and Nigel.

>> Guido: But really, if someone hasn't seen this movie. It's worth watching again. Look, you're gonna see a very, very imperfect movie, but you will probably find some things that you appreciate about.

>> Rob: Yeah, Especially with Friends'like. You said, it's not a movie that's so bad. It's good. But it is a movie definitely to see with a few other people because kind of benefits from the collective experience of, oh, there's some things to laugh at and like. But you can also enjoy it all at the same time.

>> Guido: And before we wrap up this episode, what do you want from next year's Supergirl? So now we've read her origin, we've read, her imaginary story and we've seen her original movie. What do you want James Gunn's Supergirl next year to be?

>> Rob: I think I want her to have a unique problem to solve because I think there's easy to go. She's just a clone of Superman and it's the same issues as Superman and some of the WB TV show had some of that and. Or like in this movie where like she's almost a non entity, almost a bit as a character. Like I want her to have a very distinct characterization, but also not just be, oh, I'm just Clark and Superman, but in a skirt. Like, like have her be her own character. Those. That's what I would really want from this.

>> Guido: Yeah, I want that. And then the other thing I want is because we didn't get this, I love Melissa Benowis Supergirl also. But what we didn't get from that Supergirl or this Supergirl, is the interplay with Superman.

>> Guido: And I really, I want to see how do they coexist? What is it? What does it mean that he is not the last survivor of Kryon anymore? Like, I want all of that to be here. Now if this is adapting Supergirl, Woman of Tomorrow, which James Gunn has pretty much confirmed it is, then she's not going to be on Earth at the time. So we might not get them their interplay until later in the universe. But I do at some point just want these characters, have to be intertwined. They look, they, they wear the same costume, they're from the same planet. Like you can't just, they can't be on their own franchises. Like the way so many Marvel characters can be in their own franchises and then meet up for the Avengers. You can't do that with Superman and Superirl. Like they have to, they have to exist together. And so that excites me to see what that's gonna be like and to see if there's gonna be a surprise Supergirl appearance in Superman movie this summer. I doubt there is, but certainly down the road I'm looking forward to how they do tie in together.

>> Rob: No, we'll have to cover one of those many other many one of her many other imaginary stories. Definitely.

>> Guido: Oh my gosh, she's a werewolf. She mar Superman marries a clone of her which is really creepy. I mean it just goes on and on. Yeah. But for now that dear Watchers is a wrap. I have been Madame Selena and.

>> Rob: I have been well, I'm in a round wig but not really.

>> Guido: The reading list and watching list is in the show notes. Follow us at deerwatchers deerwatchers.com.

>> Rob: Leave us a five star review wherever you listen. We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.

>> Guido: In the words of Huatu, keep pondering the possibilities.