Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

>> Rob: I have a deep hunger for a comic book. Podcasts. Welcome to Dear Watchers, an Omniversal comic book podcast, where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

>> Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up the Omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey are me, Cyborg Guido, resurrected yet again, and N. Rob.

>> Rob: the Bower World. And before we begin our little trip to the multiverse, Guido, what's new in our little section of the Omniverse?

>> Guido: well, we've had a great response to our last two episodes on DC Imaginary Stories, including one of today's featured characters. We joked last time that we weren't becoming a D.C. podcast, so we're slowly transitioning away from that with today's episode. We're trying to blend them together.

>> Rob: A Superman podcast, Really?

>> Guido: I guess. I guess that's kind of true. But go listen to our last two episodes if you haven't already.

>> Rob: Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane.

>> Guido: Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane. So, of course, Superman shows up. And Fantastic Four. The trailer came out just a few days before recording this.

>> Rob: It did.

>> Guido: So it's definitely relevant here and to what we're doing today.

>> Rob: We didn't have something like the most views of anything, like an asserted m amount of time.

>> Guido: I stay away from that kind of news. I stay away from all news. I stay away from that kind of news too. So I'm not sure. I'm not sure if it broke records. And I guess we'll talk about our opinion of it in our third segment, but that's not our focus for today.

>> Rob: Well, if you're joining us for the first time on our Superman podcast, I mean, multiversal podcast, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today. Origins of the story, exploring multiversity, and pondering possibilities. So thanks for coming along.

>> Guido: And remember, leave us a five star review wherever you're listening and find us on bluesky and Instagram. Dear Watchs.

>> Rob: And with that, welcome to episode 153. And let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travels to today's alternate universe. Today we are asking the multiversal question, what if Superman and the Fantastic Four teamed up against Galactus and that we.

>> Guido: Could have asked so many more questions for this world? And we'll get into that. We have covered Superman and the Fantastic Four countless times at this point. I didn't even bother.

>> Rob: Our very firsting episode covered the Fantastic Four because it was what if, number One, what if Spider man joined the Fantastic Four?

>> Guido: Yeah, well I guess this is kind of like what if Superman joined the Fantastic for maybe we should have made that.

>> Rob: The question what if anyone wearing a red and blue suit joins the Fantastic Four? Then Captain America's next.

>> Guido: And we have covered some of the Marvel DC crossover books via amalgam, but otherwise we have not gone there.

>> Rob: Oh my gosh.

>> Guido: In 553 episodes we have not covered. I think for a long time at the beginning I was like, well these are. We want to build up our the way of being and dive into some of the more hidden corners and do some of the core in each of the separate universes before we cross over too much. We have done amalgams quite a few times, but we have not done some of the major crossovers and that is shocking. We did guest on Comic Book Keepers to talk about Uncanny X Men, Teen Titans, but we have not covered it.

>> Rob: And in fact you pointed out that the omnibus with this very story is literally sitting right behind my head as we speak.

>> Guido: Back on episode 97. I will point you there. We did give a history of the Marvel DC crossovers. Cause we did a fun what the parody issue that had the Justice League and the Avengers fighting. So you can go hear our history of the crossovers. As for the world that we visit Today, it'actually is Earth616 and the DC New Earth, which is the prime Earth at the canon. This was written to be canonical. We can talk more about that alongside DC versus Marvel, which we have not covered and one day need to. So let's assume this story is not truly canonical, but it was written as such. Even to the point of taking in all current continuity, all the looks and locations at the time that it was written in 1999. But we're going to pretend it's an alternate Earth and we're going to call it Earth Super Fantastic.

>> Rob: I love it. And of course you mentioned the Fantastic Four. You mentioned Superman. But really the star of this issue and the star of the issues we're going to discuss today is Galactus. He's going to be a big part of the new Fantastic Four movie. So what is your background geto with the character of Galactus?

>> Guido: I don't think I care. I think is the answer though. Every time I read more I'm. I'm okay. I'm into it. I like cosmic existentialism.

>> Guido: And Galactus definitely opens the door to cosmic existentialism. But I don't like outer space stuff. I don't like, world devouring stuff, on such a massive scale. And so I've never been a big fan. I obviously know a ton of Galactus, obviously from our regular listeners know I've read primarily Marvel for most of my life. So he's always there. I know who he is. I know all of his various origin iterations. I know about the Heralds, I know all those kinds of details. But I've never been a fan. I'd say I'm not particularly interested. I have read the issues that we read today before and I can talk about my thoughts on them when we get into them. What about you for Galactus overall?

>> Rob: Well, like, you definitely was super familiar with the character. Probably first from the Fantastic Four animated series from the 90s. I think that was probably the first time I knew the character. And people who have listened to this show before will know I'm a big villain fan. But I was never a big fan of Galactus. And the reason is because he's not really a true villain. I never.

>> Guido: He has no personality.

>> Rob: Yeah, no personality. But then also he doesn't want to be devouring the world.

>> Guido: And maybe we'll talk more about that.

>> Rob: But those villains that were like the Sandman in Spider man or Man Bat in Batman, like, I never really liked those villains who like couldn't help but be villains, reluctant villains, like, I don't know, it just never really fully did it for me. I liked a Dr. Doom, someone who's out there to be truly villainous. So I just never really latched on to Galactus. And I think secondly, like you said, like he doesn't have a ton of personality. Those other big larger than life world devouring villains like a Thanos or something has so much personality to him and Galactus just really doesn't.

>> Guido: So let's dive in and see if that holds true on our reading of his origin.

>> Rob: I'm hungry. I want an appetizer. So let's go into origins of the story right now on this very show, you're gonna get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago. And day on Origins of the story, we have three issues to discuss. That is Fantastic Four, volume one, issues number 48, 49 and 50 from Marvel Comics. These are from March, April and May 1966 and they're entitled the Coming of Galactus. If this be Doomsday, which doesn't have Dr. Doom in it'kind it's a very there experience.

>> Guido: The title, I don't get it. I sort of love it. Don't get it.

>> Rob: Doomsday later. A Superman villain.

>> Guido: I thought of that already earlier.

>> Rob: The last one is the startling saga of the Silver Surfer. Very Stan Lee title right there.

>> Guido: So all three of these are written by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, doing the Artash story plotting, as we know. Inked by Joe Sint, colors probably by Stan Goldberg, lettered by Arty Simick or Sam Rosen on the various issues. And Stan is the editor at this point. We read these three issues because they are the first appearance of Galactus and it is a three issue arc, as you will.

>> Rob: And the first appearance is of the Silver Surfer, who kind of goes hand in hand a lot with Galactus.

>> Guido: Correct. As does you ought to. Who shows up here? Our icon.

>> Rob: But he had appeared earlier. Fantastic.

>> Guido: on a handful of occasions actually. So this is your first reading. Did you. You probably actually. Other than Fantastic Four origin issue. I guess we read Doom's first appearance.

>> Rob: Yes, we did.

>> Guido: We read Uatu's first appearance. But you probably haven't read much of this era. So any. Any initial thoughts just about this arc or what, what Stan and Jack are doing before we get into Galactus? Any general impressions?

>> Rob: Well, I think also after covering so much Silver Age silliness in our last two issues, what struck me so much with the arc here over these three issues is how contemporary I would say it feels. And I think there's certainly things you could pull out as being dated in terms of the language and the art style and things like that. But just the way that it ARCs over these three issues, like I can see a movie being this as well, or a modern comic. Like it just feels so modern. We introduce the Silver Surfer and the first issue, we introduce Galactus. We get the kind of core battle there. And then we get the deouement and the third issue and kind of also setting up whatever story comes next feels very modern.

>> Guido: Well, I think what's wild, I had started a rereading with Elliot of Fantastic Four from the beginning and I probably got to like the 70s and lapsed. And I need to go back this era. I couldn't believe how narratively structured it was. Like you're saying in such a modern way. Even in terms people always joke or say that it's a soap opera. X Men's a soap opera too. But what I was struck by is while we read this, these three issues, like you're actually. You have to read at the beginning, the end of the previous fight with Black Bolt. Like every single issue leads into the next and it's so unusual because most comics at that point are single issue, truly single issue, with the rare occasional continuation. But they're meant to be single issue episodes. Or you have the more modern age of comics now, where they're arcs. You have a very clearly defined arc. And Fantastic Four is just serialized storytelling. It just doesn't stop. You can start and you need to keep going. Even in the third issue, there's like those little scenes where we had to even look up what they're hinting at. You're meeting a new character. You're getting fourshadowing of a villain who's coming. You're getting Johnny's first, experience in college, which introduces Wyatt Wingfoot. Like, you just need to keep reading. There's not a start and end in this case. There's the start and end of Galactus'attempt to devour Earth. But the structure is so interesting and I think unique, which is part of why Marvel was so distinct at the time.

>> Rob: And I think something that X Men would probably really take and run with it, but you see it here as well, is a big thing. I think that plays into that storytelling and into the soap opera aspect is kind of the male female dynamics throughout all the three issues, because all of our characters have kind of their female counterpart or male counterpart. So you've got Johnny, who's kind of lusting after Crystal, who's now been from the Inhumans and she's been separated from him. You have kind of Reed, who's kind of keeping sue at bay, and sue wants to be GE involved and Reed be kind of really being a J.

>> Guido: Silver Age jerky, guys. I know Superman was one, but Rita too.

>> Rob: And then really the core here is you have the Alicia character, who's the one who's really able to turn the Silver Surfer against Galactus. But in the end, also, Ben feels like that he's been abandoned by Alicia and that she's now more favoring the Silver Surfer. And that right there especially feels so. Has this real soap opera element.

>> Guido: Yeah, it's all very character driven. And again, I just think the. The deconstructed nature of the decompressed story nature of these stories, I should say. So. Now, the story itself, the Galactus aspect. Did you enjoy getting to know Galactus? This is your first reading?

>> Rob: Yes, I think I have read this before. but I think kind of going back to what we were just saying, I think the one thing that kind of lacks a bit with Galactus as a character, and I think also the Silver Surfer at least at this point is that they don't. They speak very robotically also might be like in a that Shakespearian way and.

>> Guido: Not exciting and voluminously.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: We have so much text.

>> Guido: It is definitely the long winded era of Stan here because even I was surprised how many text bubbles were filling panels. That maybe was a strategy just for Jack to be able to work faster. I have no idea. But there were some panels where like 2/3 of the panel is covered in speech bubbles. It seemed very unusual to me. And you can definitely skim because yeah, it's old Stan and his, his way of speaking that are unique there.

>> Rob: Well and plotting and story two. There's a lot that eventually is relied upon in terms of these deus machina, kind of things like the ultimate oulllifier. Yes, exly.

>> Guido: But the ultimate oullifier is so important in the Marvel universe. This is the introduction of it and what's cool. So a quick. I guess we should give a quick summary of the story for people who haven't read this. Very easy to summarize. Galactus s herald Silver Surfer comes to Earth which indicates Galactus is coming to feed off a planet. Uatu is familiar with Galactus needing to feed off planets, gets involved, breaks his watcher's oath of course by getting involved that will later be dealt with. And so all of this is playing out. Uachu guides Johnny to another universe or sort of parallel dimension to get the ultimate nullifier. A weapon that will threaten Galactus. Meanwhile, as you said, Alicia, her compassion, if you will, inspires Silver Surfer to turn against Galactus, try to get him to stop. But it is the ultimate nullifier that Johnny gets, which is a weapon that can I guess you nullify, right. So cease existence because otherwise you can't beat Galactus. And having that weapon causes Galactus to say okay, I'll give up, I'll move on if you give me the weapon. And they agree's this tiny little gun.

>> Rob: You know what it reminded me of? Do you remember? And Men in Black Agent K as the big gun. And then it gives Will Smith like the Noisy Cricket. And it's like this little tiny thing but it's. It turns out to be like this super powerful weapon. Like that's what it reminded me of. Because the ultimate nullifier like you think it's go goingna be something. It's a little handheld, a little handeld silver thing.

>> Guido: Yeah. So that is the story. So yes, lots of convenient turns there. I think the thing, I think there's two things.

>> Rob: Not the character.

>> Guido: No, not the character. There's not two of them. I think there are two things about this story that really stand out to me. One is Galactus's design.

>> Guido: It's quintessential Kirby with unnecessary flair.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: Which in a fun way. And looks sort of futuristic and ancient at the same time. Looks like it's from another planet or from an ancient Earth civilization. Like does that really perfect sci fi blending that he does of those things.

>> Rob: And Stan Goldberg changed his mind between issues 40 on the color 99. Because the first issue he's very Christps. He's red green.

>> Guido: Then they get some purple in there. Yeah. But he doesn't still yet become purple and blue as we know him today at that point. The second thing that I think it does really well is that that cosmic existentialism. And of course the Silver Surfer drives most of that. Galactus at this point doesn't seem to care. And that's fine. in later stories I think you get more of his character. But in this one it's Silver Surfer who starts to care. And the conversations with Alicia I love, I think those are some of the moments. And I could can see why in 1966 people reading these were like, oh wow. Because they're just. She's convincing him of humanity's worthiness and he's really struck by the things she's saying and what he's seeing. And so it' It's a trope. A sci fi trope for sure. Like get the aliens to go away by showing them how strong and capable we are.

>> Rob: But you and I, we've talked about this on the podcast before, but we've only really become Doctor who fans in the last couple years. And I could totally see a. That this was maybe impactful to later Doctor who because you also have so much of that there. on the one thing that is able to ultimately save Earth is the humanity of humans. And that's something that the Doctor talks about all the time as well as like the power of humanity. And that's what really changes the Silver Surfer's mind here.

>> Guido: Yeah. Yeah. So I think those ingredients make it really fun. Even if it's at times a slog to read and even if it is like very convenient. I think the, the existentialism mixed with the visuals make it really fun.

>> Rob: Yeah. And I think the two things that really stood out for me whenever I read these early this early Fantastic Four general is the character of the Thing. I mean, I think he's so fun. And you could just tell that for all kind of the pontificating that Stan might have done with other characters, he really loved Ben Grimm as a character. Like you can see gives so much. And Jack too.

>> Guido: Remember that they're plotting the story together.

>> Rob: But the dialogue too, I think like the dialogue of Ben just jumps out as being so fun. And then I think like Jack's contributions throughout. There's so many panels where suddenly, especially with Uwatu, he just does like a close up on Aw Wau's eyes and it's got like just suddenly it's a was in color. It's just green or red or something like that.

>> Guido: Well, or the greatest thing here, which he use a few times, which is the collage.

>> Guido: He uses it in Fantastic Four on a few occasions and it's so cool.

>> Rob: And it's actual real photos. Righteah.

>> Guido: And they're done like halftonnes, so they look like newsprints. So they sort of blend in. This is now when Johnny's being shunted to the other universe. You get to see that. And it's just so cool. It is very acid trip. Like. Like you can just see the. I don't think Stan or Jack were using psychedelics, but you can see the influence of psychedelia on that kind of imagery. And it's very cool to see. So yeah, a fun read, a fun intro to the character. Definitely pieces I think we'll see in the movie, which we can talk about later before we wrap up.

>> Rob: Well, they're clearing the table and they're bringing in the entree. It's time for exploring the diversity. I am your guy through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question what if? And today we are asking the question, what if Superman and the Fantastic Four teamed up against Galactus? This is from Superman. Fantastic Four has one from Marvel and DC, though it is published by DC. This is from April 1999 and it's entitled the Infinite Destruction.

>> Guido: It's written by Dan Juergens, who also does the art with the help of Art Thyber, who does the inks and finishes some of the penciling with Dan. It's colored by Gregory Wright, lettered by Bill Oakley, and of course has an unforgettable cover of Alex Ross working with Dan. In terms of history of this Dan Juergens, by the way, for those who are not familiar, was the. The iconic 90s Superman writer, killed and resurrected Superman was. Had a huge long run on the title. So you can see why he was the natural person to write this in terms of this, the history of this release. Remember that we had Marvel and DC crossover starting from the 70s and they were not so much of a thing really until 95's DC versus Marvel. And so 94 to maybe 97 you get a bunch of one shot crossovers. Batman and Punisher, Superman and Silver Surfer actually. Some set in the world where the characters met the world of DC versus Marvel and others not. This was kind of a pair of releases in 99 with Hulk, Superman. It was a prestige oversized treasury edition. And it is the last one except Batman, Daredevil in 2000 and the JLA Avengers in 2003. Those are the final Marvel DC crossovers. So are in the tail end of their ability to work together. And it was actually though just republished in the Marvel DC Omnibus Volume 1 that Rob mentioned. We have multiple copies of and they reprinted it in the first volume which is just the crossovers. The second volume'the Amalgams. So let's talk about this issue. Overall impressions.

>> Rob: First overall impressions is. It's kind of, I thought, a jumbly mess. I thought it just like the story just kind of was a little all over the place. It kind of just kind of felt thrown together. I actually had to go back and reread a few times thinking oh, did I miss a page? Because I was reading it digitally and I was like, no, I didn't miss a page. It just feels very cluttered there.

>> Guido: I feel the same way. I. My guess is for some reason it's being rushed. Not sure why that is. And I also think it got cut at some point. Now it might never have been drawn, but there is. There are so many weird gaps in the story and it probably could have been nearly twice the length. Certainly it could have been 25% longer. It's. I think it's something like 40 or 50. 40 or 50 pages. They surely had a cap just cost wise, publishing wise. But it could have had another 10, 15 pages easy because there is so much stuff that doesn't make a whole lot of sense or get fleshed out. So here's a quick summary for people who haven't read this book. So there is a device that has been sent to Superman's world. So the actual DC world. Remember this is written to be canonical. And the device, it turns out, is a device that Galactus many, many, many years earlier when he detected Superman being sent from Krypton. So where're to believe in this? That Galactus is an omniversal being, which makes A whole lot of sense. Yes, he sure would be. Detects him, sends a tracker so that he can sort of come back to this powerful being of Superman. Meanwhile, Superman gets the a crystal that tells him a story that Galactus is in fact the being that destroyed Krypton. This motivates Superman to go back to Earth. 616 the Marvel universe. Now again, in this world, Superman has already been there and already met the Fantastic Four. So in this world, DC versus Marvel happened. This is meant to be our world. They know each other. They know of each other's existence. In fact, when we meet Franklin Richards, he's playing with a Superman toy.

>> Rob: yeah.

>> Guido: And watching a Superman cartoon.

>> Rob: Yeah, like Superman is a cartoon tn.

>> Guido: But they know he exist in the other world.

>> Rob: Yeah, yeah.

>> Guido: So anyway, long story short, Superman gets to 616 only to be turned into Galactus's herald. And then the I guess true villain of the series appears, which is Hank Henshaw, the Cyborg Superman, who we all know from the death end return of Superman, who becomes a villain at that point and is killed.

>> Rob: He was kind of following Galactus because he basically wanted to tap into like Galactus s like ult ultimate power basically.

>> Guido: So it turns out he forged the crystal that told Superman the story that Galactus had destroyed Krypton. That is not true. Again, I think it's Dan's attempt to keep this canonical. Make sure that's no longer true. So Cyborg Superman had set that up so that he could piggyback. He's a virus. Remember he's a cyborg. He's basically a computer virus. Can resurrect in a lot of different ways. Piggyback Superman to take over Galactus s tech, but ends up working with the Fantastic Four against Galactus because Galactus has Superman as his herald and that feels like no one's goingna be able to stop him.

>> Guido: Turns out it's relatively easy to stop him.

>> Rob: I didn't even know. Remember what turns Superman against Galactus again after he becomes the Herald? That's where he gets up especially.

>> Guido: We can talk more about that because in fact I really want to talk about Lois as role in this Non role in this. Anyway, Superman turns against Galactus. Fantastic Four end up beating Cyborg Superman. But Superman and Reed working together are able to reconstruct Galactus's technology. It's an interesting premise because the idea is that Superman's strength is required to do this and Reed couldn't do it without that. And Reed's brain is required to do this and Superman couldn't do without that. So you need the two of them. You're able to revert the tech where it will actually drain Galactus s life and he'll die if he doesn't stop. And so with that he makes the agreement that he will stop consuming worlds with living beings on them. And he goes off and the story's over.

>> Rob: What was I think interesting in just use walking us through that plot right there is how little you mentioned the Fantastic Four. You mentioned Superman a lot. Now being that it was written by Dan Juergens who was the Superman architect, perhaps that's the reason why the Fantastic Four really didn't. Doesn't really factor well.

>> Guido: And they're separated for much of it. So sue and Johnny and Ben are with Cyborg Superman trying to get to Reed who is wherever Galactus with Superman. So they're separated and yeah, they don't have a lot to do. And no one really has a lot to do. There's not a lot of action sequences in this book either.

>> Rob: No. And in part maybe because they kind of knew if you have Galactus and you have Superman, who now also has cosmic powers, the Human Torch is not going to have much of an effect on those two characters. No.

>> Guido: @ one point I think they even tell Johnny they're like go, go keep Superman at bay for a few minutes. And you're sort of like how's that going to work? That's not going to happen. So yeah, that's maybe also either a byproduct of or the result, the cause of it feeling like it jumps around.

>> Rob: There's a lot of sue like let get into my force fields. That's their main

>> Guido: Strategy.

>> Rob: Strategy, yes.

>> Guido: And then in terms of the arc, if there is one, and I love Dan Juerggeens and and I like this book and I. His art is just so quintessential 90s and looks great here. I wish. I wish she had a different inkeor maybe who would help it feel a little more detailed. M. But I still love the art. The arc, if you will, is Superman resisting Galactus. And at one point Reed even says like think of Lois as a way to like get Superman who's now has the power of a herald and is therefore like being consumed by the need to serve Galactus. He's trying to like be like think of the ones you love. Like think of Lois. But then like that never comes up again. And also you never see Lois does not. Lois isn't in this book. Which I guess you would. Had to get her to the Marvel Universe. And they. Dan didn't want to do that, but it never even comes up again. I guess at that point you just realize there's enough cracks in Galactus's hold on Superman. I don't know. It's.

>> Rob: It rings back to Alicia's method with the Silver Surfer.

>> Guido: There are. There's a lot in here that. Any other issues from that.

>> Rob: But where that kind of really works is that you have that coming from this human character. So she's really able to talk about, like, humanity as a human. Not that the Fantastic Four aren't humans, but yes, I think it would be more powerful if you actually had Lois in the story being the one to convince Superman that he needs to relinquish this cosmic power.

>> Guido: But you already have so many motivations here, because then, even when Superman stops becoming the Herald, he wants to stop Galactus because he's still at that point, thinks Galactus destroyed Krypton. So he's like, really motivated by not really revenge, more like, I will not let this happen again. And so it's like, I don't know. There's. You don't need more motivation.

>> Rob: And I think the best idea in here is that idea that Galactus actually was involved in destroying Krypton, which makes so much sense, because if Kryptonics bloated or imploded or whatever, we kind of think of happening to that planet, that Galactus was sucking the energy out. That is, I think, a brilliant idea. Great way into the story, but it's somewhat undercut at the end where it's saying, like, oh, jk, this was actually all.

>> Guido: Well, because again, I think there's a real attempt to have this story be canon. And yeah, I think that might take away. I mean, I wouldn't mind if it turned out to not be true. Why I think it falls apart is that I think the only reason Cyborg Superman is even in this is in order to have that story have been a lie. And you need a reason for it to have been a lie. If you take that, if you take Cyborg Superman away, you can't quite figure out, well, why would Superman be under the belief that Galactus killed Krypton? So you need someone manipulating Superman, so you needed to put Cyborg Superman in. But I think that's where there's like, no payoff. And I was even interested, and I was a huge 90s Superman fan, so I've read these stories. But Dan Juergens has said in interviews that the origin of Hank is actually inspired by the Fantastic Four. And there's that page in this which I appreciate where they're showing the similarities. Hank and his crew are on a spaceship, they get bombarded by cosmic rays. But in that story everyone dies, which is why Hank is sort of evil. And then that's never like there's no payoff other than that page where you're watching parallel origins.

>> Rob: Well, there's not even that kind of back and forth that you think where Hank is kind of along for the ride, but like Ben doesn't really trust him. You get teeny bits of that. But like, you want so much more repartee between say, Ben and Hank where he knows this character is going to stab them in the back at the end and he's like keeping an eye on them. You don't really get too much of that in there.

>> Guido: But even in the, There's so much more that I think could have been developed in that you have this character who you're saying has a parallel origin, but everyone else died. That should mean he wants to be at the Fantastic Four. He should have enjoyed that experienceing. Or he's like, he's the evil version of Reed. He's like, well, what if Reed. What if the four went out and everyone died around Reed? He m would like be a villain, if you will. So there was so much more that could have been played with in terms of Cyborg Superman and the Fantastic Four. If you're going to put him in here, frankly, again, I don't think he should be in here. But if you're going to put him in here, it was very underdeveloped.

>> Rob: I'm curious what would have happened to if they had also had Doom in the book. I'm curious, like have Cyborg Superman and Doom, who's kind of a Cyborg almost to himself, like have those two characters and have Hank have someone who he can reveal his plan to and maybe a partnership there. I wonder if there would be.

>> Guido: That would have been too much. No, I think that would have too much for this.

>> Rob: Because yes, we, as we said, the book is so rushed in that feeling, but if it had more room to breathe, maybe then you could expand on those ideas.

>> Guido: Well, you're also the other issue again. I think it's an attempt to keep this so canonical and rule bound would mean that Cyborg Superman could only know about Galactus because Galactus is the omniversal character in this.

>> Guido: He can't know about D. Like he can't know about anyone else.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: He is only motivated by Galactus's power. And that makes sense within, the logic of this story, because this story is trying to tell us only Galactus can traverse these worlds with the exception of now Superman and Fantastic Four knowing each other. So I think it's fun. It's not like a bad read, but it is not a great one either.

>> Rob: No. Yeah, I agree. I agree.

>> Guido: So I think we can move away from this world and talk a little bit more about what we might imagine.

>> Rob: Yes, it's time for our dessert course. It's pondering possibilities. Will the future you describe be avertederttederted? You know, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?

>> Guido: Well, here's the really unusual thing. We often use our third segment to talk about characters on screen and what's to come. What's so wild is we have Superman and Fantastic Four coming out. I'd say twotty pretty, pretty big moments for both worlds. While dc, it is the start of their new universe. Marvel's been hurting and I think needs a little reboot.

>> Rob: So. And DC too. I mean, like, people have kind of lost interest in that universe that was.

>> Guido: Well, no, it's new.

>> Rob: New.

>> Guido: This is formally new.

>> Rob: What's it been about 25 years withinman four weeks.

>> Guido: Within four weeks of each other, they're coming out. And so it's really interesting. And so we have these two properties and that's part of why we read this issue, so we can talk a little bit about them on screen. Galactus, we know is in Fantastic Four and we'll talk about that in a moment and we'll imagine what's possible. But why don't you share some of the history of Galactus on screen before we talk about summer 2025?

>> Rob: Well, what's so interesting is that this is going to be really Galactus's first real true on screen, non animation appearance in animated form. He was actually voiced, I thought this was so interesting by Ted Cassidy, you might know, as Lurch from the original Adams family series way back in 1967. And then in the 90s series by Tony J. Who is Megabyte on reboot.

>> Guido: That's fun.

>> Rob: And then most people will know that in 2007 we do for the Fantastic Four Rise of the Silver Surfer movie, that Galact Fox movie. Yeah. Galactus appeared as a cosmic cloud with only these vague hints of his comic book form.

>> Guido: Yeah, it is totally ridiculous. But this summer when Fantastic Four first steps. I don't really like that subtitle, but Fantastic Four first Steps comes out. He'll be portrayed by Ralph Inon, who was in the Harry Potter films, the Witch, Nosatu, Game of Thrones, so. And we've seen already in the trailer. You see him. We watched the teaser. You and I generally don't watch these things. We did watch the Superman teaser and the Fantastic Four teaser. So sorry, we're going to be spoiling the teasers, but I think that's okay at this point. And you do see Galactus in that, so we know Galactus is in it. We know these two movies are coming out within a month of each other. Are we going to see Superman, Fantastic Four, the Infinite Destruction on screen?

>> Rob: I know we will not. No, I don't think so. But what I do, What I do think that we'll really see in both of them is kind of a return to this kind of comics, a comic look and an embrace of the comics. Do you think that's true? That we're gonna kind of go back to, like, the Stan and Jack in one case? We'll go back to kind of the origins of Superman in the other case?

>> Guido: Yeah, I think. I mean, I don't think comic movies. Well, Marvel comic movies haven't been, like, grim or washed out, which is what DC movies were for a long time and what Fox's Marvel Universe was for a long time. But, yes, I do think both of these are going to be an attempt to be bright and bombastic and very comic bookie. I think they're gonna be fighting. I think, you know, while we're recording this, next week, Captain America, the new Captain America, comes out. That's gonna be mcui.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: I think Fantastic Four is gon toa be comic bookie. Y. I think it's gonna be a slightly different version. It is a different world. We do know that from the trailer. I think it's gonna also just be a different feel than the mcu. At the same time, of course, we know Superman being the first entry in DC's James Gunn. DC Universe post creature Commandos is gonna also set a different tone, be a different feel. So it is interesting that these two things are coming out.

>> Rob: Yeah. When there was some in Marvel like Agatha along, which we enjoyed, but that was kind of using the basic character of Agatha is like a jumping off point. Like, it wasn't necessarily taking the comics as a direct reference in many cases, like they were kind of building their own world while here. It seems even just from this teaser that they're really taking their cues from the comic books themselves.

>> Guido: Yeah. So you don't think Galactus is going to be in Superman?

>> Rob: I don't think Galactus is going to be in Superman. I do love. I mean Ralph Innocison though has one of the great voices. And for a character who's probably going to have lots of CG in how.

>> Guido: They'Re doing it, I don't know. I hope they move away from that. And the thing looks very practical in the trailer and I know that again, I don't follow discourse about anything today, but including especially perhaps Marvel movies. But I did see that there's some people who think Galactus should have been bigger and more cosmic of a being. But reading these first comics it'like no, he's standing on the roof of a building with Ben Grah. Like he is just supposed to be a giant, but he's not supposed to be some cosmic entity in the sky. Exactly. So I think we will see Ralph Innison on screen wearing a costume.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: a lot of the time I don't think it's going to be exclusively digital, particularly because the legacy of this character is the joke cloud from 2007. I mean most of us who watched those movies, that is the absolutely most absurd part of them. And so they need to make sure they don't go anywhere near that, I think.

>> Rob: And will also have a new Silver Surfer character as well which is going toa be a little bit more of a departure because it's played by a female actor in this new movie.

>> Guido: Well, it's not Norn rad, I think. Right.

>> Rob: Yeah, I. I'm not sure.

>> Guido: So I don't know because again I try not to follow to know.

>> Rob: But it is the actor though that was handpicked by Madonna to play herself in the Madonna biopic if it ever gets made. So.

>> Guido: So we have a Madonna Marvel DC crossover. I'm there.

>> Rob: She's the true E Devourer world, that's for sure.

>> Guido: I know we talk, we've talked a lot since we've covered amalgams about the just insane possibility that one day there would be an on screen crossover. I still think the chances are probably zero, but.

>> Guido: But I don't know. There's also just a part of me that wonders. Not that I think Dan Juergens's infinite destruction that we just covered is going to be the launching off point for it because I just don't think there's enough in there to mine even. But I don't know. And Superman Spider man would probably actually make the most sense since that's the first Marvel DC comic in the 1970s. And they are kind of similar single heroes. But.

>> Rob: But I do think the cosmic element of the Fantastic Four and Superman do go really well.

>> Guido: And we know that Superman. We know that the Fantastic Four movie takes place in another universe. We know that the multiverse has been a controversial device in their MCU's narrative storytelling of the last five plus years. So and we also know that it's gonnna get a reckoning at some point. Building to secret wars, whatever that ends up looking like there is. Well, there will always be a tiny part of me that wonders could it happen? And at this point I think it couldn't happen because James Gunn is not going to taint the start of his universe.

>> Rob: Oh yeah.

>> Guido: While linking it to Marvel. But I just think both companies are. You have the top being exclusively profit driven. All they want are billions of dollars. These are corporate entities that are destroying our democracy that just want billions of dollars. But then they're giving a lot of power to really creative storytellers who want to tell stories. If these really creative storytellers found a story they could tell, that would require lots of legal stuff, but get those companies billions of dollars. Part of me is s kind of like, yeah, maybe they're gonna do it.

>> Rob: Because it's got would have to be the most profitable film of all time. I can'ot see how it couldn't be so. Even though it would cost so much money. Because for the rights and the effects and what. What have you, like you don't even need to spend marketing money. It'sn to market in itself. And how could it not be the most successful film of all time?

>> Guido: Yeah, well, they could. They could mine Dan Jurgen's title. Because I'll say one thing we didn't mention in our second segment. The title doesn't make any sense to me. Infinite Destruction. I guess what he's trying to do is riff on the Infinite Crisis aspect of DC and the fact that Galactus creates so much destruction. And we know that destruction is part of the first storyline of Marvel. They call this, oh no, Doomsday, not destruction even. Anyway, so I guess that doomsday would.

>> Rob: Have even made more sense. Alth Infinite Doday.

>> Guido: No, people would have been confused. So anyway, but Infinite Destruction, maybe that's post Secret wars. That's the movie that gets announced. Marvel dc. Infinite Destruction. You heard it here first.

>> Rob: Because if it'sinite doomsday, you have to have doom and doomsday, you have to have both. Of those characters.

>> Guido: Well, we already have a movie coming out called Avengers ##day yeah, that's true, that's true. Oh, that's the DC crossoverossover. Okay.

>> Rob: Doomsday in there.

>> Guido: So this summer, Superman, Fantastic Four do connect in worlds and then Doomsday comes to join Robert Downey Jr. We've mapped it out. All right? So all in all, I think go visit this as the relic that it is and we'll see on screen this summer. Obviously, there's gonna be so much comparing of the two movies, both in terms of the box office they do and in terms of critical reviews. So we'll see who comes out the winner.

>> Rob: Post credit sequence of Fantastic Four. First step, Pedro Pascal just picks up this glowing green rock. You know, that's what I'm thinking.

>> Guido: And then the post credits for Superman, it's something with like. It's like they find the ultimate nullifier.

>> Rob: Uh-huh. Yes. Yes, exact.

>> Guido: There you go. Which movie do you think is winning, by the way, in the battle for the summer? Which one?

>> Rob: Oh my gosh, that's a good question. I hadn't even thought of that.

>> Guido: I know my answer, so I'll go first. I think I have zero doubt Superman will win.

>> Rob: Historically, I'mnna say Superman, because also I think like, we've been so desperate for a Superman movie.

>> Guido: Well, and a Superman in life, I think.

>> Rob: And a Superman in life. Yes, that's a good point.

>> Guido: I think when I, I, was less excited about the Fantastic Four trailer because it didn't felt very inspired to me. I loved the aesthetic, but it didn't felt very inspired, whereas Superman feels inspirational.

>> Rob: Well, and I think the thing you said too is like, oh, yes, this is the start of James Gunn's new onscreen universe, but I think it's going to feel like a singular film while the Fantastic Four is going to feel like how is this going to play into another chapter?

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah, the double edged sword, of the long storytelling of.

>> Rob: I'll be really curious to go back and see if that is how it all works out. If Superman is the bigger movie. I, mean, I think they'll both be giant movies, though.

>> Guido: They will both be gigantic movies. If they're both good, they'll both make well over a billion dollars. M. If they're not good, maybe one will struggle to keep up. But I do think Superman is, is the one we've all been waiting for. And I know as someone who is more of a Marvel fan than a DC fan, the fact that I am more excited for Superman probably says a lot. So we'll return to this conversation this summer.

>> Rob: But until then, that's been a wrap. Dear Watchers, thank you so much for listening.

>> Guido: I have been Cyborg Guido and I.

>> Rob: Have ve been Rob.

>> Guido: Thrown in with no purpose.

>> Rob: Devour of worlds. Now Devourer of dinner.

>> Guido: The reading list is in the show notes. Follow us online, at Deer watchers. Go to deerwatchers.com to review our previous.

>> Rob: Episodes and leave us a five star review. Wherever you listen. We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.

>> Guido: In the words of Whoatu, keep pondering the possibilities.