Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

>> Rob: It's alive. It's alive. Welcome to Dear Watchers, an omniversal, comic book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

>> Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds and the novels that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And, your watchers on this journey are, me, Guido the Impaler.

>> Rob: I was just going to say that.

>> Guido: I thought you'd be Robin Stein.

>> Rob: Oh, Robinstein. That's good. I like that.

>> Guido: Although it sounds like someone named Robin Stein. That is true. That is true.

>> Rob: It's like a drag name where it could be both. I could be Robin Stein. I love it. Well, before we begin our trip into our nightmares, Guido, what's new in our little section of the Multiverse?

>> Guido: It's Halloween season. If you're listening to this, when we recorded it, we're right in the heart of it, which we've been preparing for it for a long time. And it's our favorite season.

>> Rob: So we have our 12 foot skeleton up.

>> Guido: Yeah. And our Bride of Frankenstein animatronic new this year. So very fitting for our episode today. So that's fun and really connected to Spooky Season. Actually, we didn't even talk about this off podcast. The. Something is Killing the Children landing at Blumhouse. Oh, yes, I did see this, which is so cool. That is cool. Spooky Season announcement. Something Is Killing the Children was optioned by Netflix years ago, which is part of why the comic early issues are so expensive. But finally there's movement, and for Blumhouse to join gives me a lot of hope in a really cool opening of that world. So that was a good.

>> Rob: Is it a TV show in a movie? It's like a whole bunch of stuff, I think.

>> Guido: Yes, now it is. It was originally a TV series at Netflix, and now Blumhouse joining means a whole lot more. So that is really cool.

>> Rob: Very exciting. And if you are joining us here for our Creepy podcast for the first time, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today. Origins of the story, Exploring multiversity and pondering possibility. So thanks for coming along and please.

>> Guido: Leave a five star review wherever you're listening. If you left one years ago, then maybe it's time for you to go leave another one. Can you do that? I don't know. I don't know. Update it. find. Find a way to give some support. We appreciate it.

>> Rob: And with that, dear Watchers, welcome to episode 171. And let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travels. Today's alternate universe today. Are we actually brave enough to answer this terrifying question? It's what if Superman fought Dracula and Frankenstein, AKA the Frankenstein monster, if you want to be specific.

>> Guido: Oh, I hate that. It's pedantic, and I'm over it. It's time everyone just move on. Like, we get it, we understand. But once you've gotten over 150 years of something like, just let it go, you're just being obnoxious.

>> Rob: I was definitely that kid because, you know, we'll get into this. You know, being that I was into these characters as a kid, I was like.

>> Guido: You were correcting.

>> Rob: Pardon me. Excuse me. Oh, you were a Noah.

>> Guido: I don't think I see that. Are you sure that's accurate?

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: So this terrifying question brings us into a, world that's technically Prime Earth, but these characters are not. They're ported over, and we'll talk about that in the story. But we have covered Superman so many times, I'm not even going to tell you anymore when we've covered him. So feel free to go to dearwatchers.com, click episodes, and you can search through. Through our archives because they're evergreen. We did, however, cover Frankenstein and Dracula last year in episode 148, when we looked at Creature commandos. So this is. Believe it or not, this is kind of our first outing with the classic monsters. Those were different versions. So we will take a look at these guys now.

>> Rob: Yeah. So what is your background with Frank? Maybe we can just call him Frank and Drac.

>> Guido: Frank and Drac. Quite a bad name.

>> Rob: Sounds like. Or Private Detectives.

>> Guido: A lot of Psycho. Billy. Psycho Billy, whatever they call that music. 60s monster.

>> Rob: Go, go Upright.

>> Guido: Frank and Drac.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: Well, I. My preference is for Frankenstein. So starting with Frank, I read Frankenstein in English class in maybe eighth grade, which is a little young. Maybe it was ninth grade. But it was really cool to me that we were reading this in English. And I remember I didn't always do the reading because it's dry at times, but I really enjoyed. I really enjoyed, talking about it in class. It felt really cool to me. I had seen the movie, but I wouldn't call myself a fan, certainly at that point. But reading it really, like, kind of put the story in me. And then it was really as an adult with you, I'd say, revisiting Bride of Frankenstein, that made me, like, really fall in love with this character and Persona, because neither of these have ever been My favorite. But Frankenstein's up there. Dracula I did try to read probably also in high school. I don't think I ever finished as a kid. I think I liked vampire stuff more than Frankenstein. Monster stuff, however, that switched at some point. And as an adult, maybe because of over saturation. I really don't like vampire narratives. I'm not interested in them. I'm not interested in Dracula. Never been a thing for me. There are ways I can get into it and pieces of it that I like, but never been big into it. I'm right now reading a biography of Brahm Stoker and that's making me really reconsider everything, I think. So I'm sure I'm gonna come out on the other side more of a fan than I realized. But so far it's never been the.

>> Rob: Biggest be fans of both.

>> Guido: Totally, totally.

>> Rob: Like DC and Marvel, right? You can read them both.

>> Guido: Yes, yes. So yeah. And then of course, no one in the world escapes the sort of licensing machine that has built up around, especially.

>> Rob: For us growing up in the 90s when there was that resurgence of the Universal monsters and they were on the Doritos, they were on Pepsi. They were just everywhere when we were growing up, like after, after having disappeared probably for a bit suddenly. They. They just popped up everywhere.

>> Guido: They did, it's true. And yeah, I think they. I never was either of them for Halloween. I don't think I might have been a Dracula type thing as a real little kid, but I was never really either for Halloween. And I wouldn't say I'd bought a lot of their merch, but anyway, so yeah. as much of a fan as a normal person. A little more for Frankenstein, I'd say. But I know for you that's not true. And your gateway was not the books. So.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: What's your background with these two?

>> Rob: My gateway was 100% the original universal movies. They were really some of the first movies I ever remember watching. It was like Disney movies and then the first generation horror movies. King Kong and then Dracula, Frankenstein, the Invisible man, the Mummy. I think it was because my grandfather, my grandparents introduced them to me. And then having parents that grew up in our parents generation, they also really grew up with these. They were like the monster kids that these were playing on.

>> Guido: Yeah, I think my dad really showed them.

>> Rob: Yeah. So I watched those. I remember especially Frankenstein most of all the tape with kind of his. His green skin on, on the COVID And I love them as a kid. And I always say, I've said to our friends who have kids. Like, these are great ways. Like, more parents should be show their kids those original movies because they're 60, 70 minutes long, they're super digestible, and it's a good way to get your kid used to watching black and White, watching a different kind of pacing as well. And I was both of them for Halloween.

>> Guido: I know I'm aware.

>> Rob: Dracula or another vampire. One of my earliest Halloween costumes. And then my family did pretty elaborate Halloween costumes, so I was the Frankenstein monster, and my mom made a stuffed bride, and then my dad made a wedding cake, and we both stood on top of that, and it could be pulled, so.

>> Guido: And did you win a trophy for that one?

>> Rob: Oh, I'm sure we won lots and lots of trophies, so. But the one thing I have never really done is actually, actually read the books. So I started reading Dracula last year. I really couldn't get into it, so I want to return to it. Frankenstein never read at all. I don't know why. It escaped me growing up, and even then as an adult when I continued my fascination with these characters. I know it's so totally different than the movie and most of the portrayals. So one day I do have to just sit down and actually read it. So, let's talk a little bit more about these monstrous characters in our origins of the story. Right now on this very show, you're gonna get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago. So let's go in chronological order, and we'll start by talking about Frankenstein. So Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, or if you really want to be fancy, the modern Prometheus was published in 1818, when Shelley was just 20 years old. Real overachiever there, cementing her legacy as one of the earliest pioneers of science fiction. Blending Gothic horror with enlightenment era anxieties, the novel follows Victor Frankenstein, a young scientist who creates a sentient creature in a tragic experiment that explores the boundaries of creation, responsibility, and ultimately humanity.

>> Guido: Yeah, it is remarkable that this was written by a young woman. I think it's not actually said enough, frankly. You and I just watched a really interesting BBC documentary about the writing of this and Vampire, like one of the earlier stories, precursors to Dracula. And it really is extraordinary when you look at the fact that she's 18 when she has the idea, 18, 19. And then spends the next year, year and a half writing this. And, I mean, gosh, the story is one of the canonical stories of literature. It's just wild.

>> Rob: When I was in elementary school and we had to do little Biographies of people. I did a biography of Mary Shelley and it was probably the only woman or definitely the first woman that I would have written a biography for. And in that way, it's such a, it's. It is so inspiring when you think of it, especially when you're that kid and everyone you're learning about is probably a white man at that point. So it's really cool that it's like, oh, wow, this young, younger woman that was then still resonating so many years later.

>> Guido: Yeah, it is pretty extraordinary. And so then we come to 80 years later, which is pretty wild because I think something happens. I think there's a word for this when your sense of the past collapses and it's like, why numbers and things get abstract and tricky. But like it's. We all think of these as contemporaries and they're not. They're 80 years apart. I mean, that's massive because Bram Stoker's Dracula is published in 1897. And of course, while it's not the first vampire novel or story, it does help define the modern vampire mythos, blending a lot of folklore with Victorian fears of the unknown and desire. It's told through journal entries and letters and follows Count Dracula's move from Transylvania to England and the people who try to stop his sinister influence. So two extraordinary almost bookends to the 19th century, if you will. I'm sure someone has explored that history and the way they kind of are an arc of a century. But why do you think these two persist? Is it the books, is it the movies? Like, is it something inherent in the story? Like, why. Why are these. When anyone thinks of monsters, these are.

>> Rob: The monsters and they do persist. Because I did not know what we were going to be discussing today. And I literally, when I was finishing up work, put on the 1931 Dracula movie and watched it. So it was like I was in a trance.

>> Guido: And I'm sure there's five year olds wearing these as Halloween costumes, right?

>> Rob: Like who they are, necessarily.

>> Guido: We've talked about, when we talked about the wizard of Oz, we've talked about the way that persists, but nothing, I think, narratively. I mean, I'm hard pressed to think that there's anything narratively, historically that has persisted for more than these two. I mean, unless you say the Bible is narrative fiction. But let's move that to the side.

>> Rob: Yeah. And I can actually see so many links between this and something we've also talked about on the podcast before with the DC characters. Obviously we're going to be Talking about Superman in a bit. And given I would imagine in so many years, once we get to as many years as we've been removed from Frankenstein and Dracula, that Superman and Batman will continue to persist as well. And we've talked about before that there's something about all of these characters that it's just, it's like you come out of the womb knowing who they are without ever being told. Like, I couldn't tell you when, the first time I necessarily even knew Frankenstein, even though I watched those movies. But you just feel like you. Every kid knows who he is, just like every kid knows who Superman is.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah, I agree. Although I wonder. It's interesting you're saying that. And of course I won't be alive to know if what you're predicting comes.

>> Rob: True, but never say never.

>> Guido: In some, in some ways I wonder if Frankenstein and Dracula, they almost benefit from having. There's very little story about them. In fact, there is one core story and, and why I love serialized storytelling and love the fact that comics have been a hundred year story for DC almost 100 years. This. I wonder if in some ways they are more iconic because there is one book, for many years there was one movie. Even if you count some of the sequels or if you count the 60s Hammer horror, like they, they were not a huge thing. So ultimately there's less of these characters, which maybe makes them more iconic. Right. I'm thinking with Superman, there's different versions of Superman. Different people have different supermen that they like, but with these characters there's really one. Right. Like, I'm sure there's people who debate Christopher Lee versus Bela Lugosi, but generally that's really getting into the horror nerds. Most people. There is one Dracula, there's one Frankenstein, and it is the Universal images.

>> Rob: Yeah. And Bela Gosi only played the character twice in his entire career and Karloff played the character of the monster three times. So.

>> Guido: Yeah, well, partly because like low.

>> Rob: When you think of like a Marvel MCU person who's like, they're over playing them for 20 years.

>> Guido: Yeah, well, some of it too is. I don't know, I guess because Universal owns those likenesses, so they have kept tight control over them while of course the books have become public domain a long time ago. So it's just, it's an interesting convergence of a whole lot of things. Anyone can tell a story with these characters, but there is a certain control over a particular likeness, which is the most popular and well known likeness, of course. So.

>> Rob: Well, I think people Also just take kernels of each story. Like we were kind of saying in the Frankenstein movie from 1931, the monster doesn't talk. In the novel, he actually talks quite a lot. And like you just said too, like the, the novel of Dracula is, epistolary. It's all these journals and letters. And obviously the movie is not like that at all. So people take these core ideas and then I think something like Frankenstein, probably even more so than Dracula, you can then put into whatever other scientific, I mean something like AI and putting your consciousness into AI now would a ripe for a Frankenstein, story. But you could maybe even say, I'm just thinking like Dracula with something like even the substance, like not aging and all these other things. So, like, it does still, you can still make it work and you can adapt it without only taking the very core of the original stories and kind of abandoning everything else.

>> Guido: Well, and I think that's what literary scholars or literature people would probably say, like, that's, that's what makes certain literature persist is not just the language, but the ideas. And in these two, you have such a central idea that has persisted in so many ways before we move on from this. Both have been in a lot of comics.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: We're not going to give a full history here. We can save that for another episode. But you know, Frankenstein was one of Marvel's, core characters in the 70s. Dracula also one of Marvel's core characters when they went into the Bronze Age horror set. Do you feel like you've read a lot of comics of these two? or no. Almost like I seen you reading a lot of them.

>> Rob: No, I don't think, I don't think almost any. I have very little familiar with the Frankenstein comics. I know he wears that very comfy looking furry vest, so I know the look of him.

>> Guido: The Sonny and Cher, it's very sunny.

>> Rob: And Cher vest it is. And then Dracula, I feel like a little bit more because he interacted with other characters, right. Like, like Blade and Johnny Blade, the X Men, those kind of characters. The X Men, yeah.

>> Guido: He does show up a lot more. It's interesting. I'm not totally sure why that.

>> Rob: Well, I think it's the speaking. Right. And we'll get into that in this episode as well. Like one of those characters kind of can speak, though.

>> Guido: Frankenstein speaks in his comics. Obviously they didn't write a whole Marvel comic that's just, wordless. That went on for 60 to 30 issues or whatever it was.

>> Rob: There was an animated version of that too. Right.

>> Guido: I believe There was a Japanese, anime version of that. Yeah. So there are, there are a few versions of that. And then of course, like we mentioned, we've covered the DC version and people have tried to adapt these characters, but those were the most faithful moments of the main two publishers.

>> Rob: Alright, well, speaking of faithful adaptations of these characters from big publisher, it's time to explore some multiversity. I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what is. And today we were asking the question, what if Superman fought Dracula and Frankenstein, aka Frankenstein's monster. This is from Superman, volume one, issue number 344. And it's entitled the Monsters Among Us from February 1980.

>> Guido: Yes. And this is written by Paul Levitz, who does the script based on a Len Wein story, penciled by Kurt Swan, inked by Frank Chiaramonte, colored by Glynnis Oliver, lettered by Ben Oda and edited by Julie Schwartz. And let's go through the story bit by bit because it's a, it's a weird one.

>> Rob: So in this story, it starts with something that has nothing to do pretty much with anything else that happens.

>> Guido: It does, it creates the whole thing.

>> Rob: I get.

>> Guido: Oh, go on.

>> Rob: Does it? No. I don't know. Well, Superman tries to stop a storm and prevent some lightning. Ooh, scary.

>> Guido: Well, it's like the trigger for the whole story.

>> Rob: Well, the trigger is gonna be the medium, right? Well, I don't know, we'll see.

>> Guido: Yeah, but it's because he did this, I think that the lightning creates the, Anyway, but what I will say about that beat of the story is he's such a jerk. This is a, this is a squarely Superman is a jerk era because he's like, I don't really care about the environment or about anything like that. He's like, I am just. I don't want this lightning storm while I'm on my way to where I'm going. And so I'm going to use my heat to get rid of it, ecosystem be damned. So he's a little bit careless, I'd say here with it. And he's clearing the way because he's headed to a castle for a seance to cover a story of a seance for a guy who died and it's the anniversary of his death. And there's this medium there and Lois.

>> Rob: Is there as well.

>> Guido: Yes. And Frankenstein and Dracula break through the wall all of a sudden after the seance. And Dracula is going after the medium, but then overhears while he's A bat that Superman might make him invulnerable because of Superman's blood.

>> Rob: That way he can become invincible.

>> Guido: Yeah. So the rest of the plot is driven by that plan. And Frankenstein is kind of, I guess like Dracula's lackey here.

>> Guido: I don't love, but I guess kind of makes sense.

>> Rob: I have something else to talk about that in just a moment. But speaking of Frankenstein, he is actually eating some enjoyable cakes from a streetcar vendor in the city.

>> Guido: Just a little bit why that happened. I guess it's so weird to me that obviously someone's like doing it as a joke. I guess in this case Paul Levitz. Like I understand why when we're seeing Frankenstein being destructive in the city, to lure Superman in, like his destruction is. I'm gonna like rip open your street vendor card and eat your cakes.

>> Rob: Yeah. And also he is, he is undead. so he doesn't really need to eat, I don't think technically.

>> Guido: And in the 70s were people selling cakes on in street carts. Because they're not doing that now.

>> Rob: Well, there's like hot dog carts and stuff like that. I mean, yeah, but not pig carts. Oh, he could have been a hot dog because that's a Frank and that would have been much more clever. Wouldn't it have been Frankenstein eating a Frank. Anyway, Superman then fights Frankenstein. Then he goes to fight Dracula and he's nearly defeated. But then, then he has ah, a.

>> Guido: Child'S balloon filled with hydrogen that he uses his heat vision to turn into a mini sun there for pushing Dracula back. And once he's done that, the Phantom Stranger shows up and Deus ex.

>> Rob: Phantom Stranger.

>> Guido: Basically it's not even a Deus ex. It's literally like the last page he just shows up and is like, I've sent them back to the realm of nightmares. And then even suggests that they were never really there, which I had to go back and see. Like, is it possible this was all in Superman's head? But then the cake scene is actually the only scene that proves that Frankenstein was not in Superman's head because the cake vendor is really upset and he.

>> Rob: Sent back, he even says to the realm of nightmare. So I almost got like that they are from like a meta literary.

>> Guido: Totally. I think that's what they're hinting at here because I. Yeah, I think they're meant to be Shelley's and Stoker's creations here. They're not meant to be other characters or anything like that. So. Yeah. And that's it. So it's Like, a fairly simple Wacky definitely fits in the zone of imaginary stories, even though it is a prime Earth. But, yeah, there's also lots of great.

>> Rob: Stuff with the Clark Kent Persona in this as well, because this is, like, prime time, when he's always needs to wrangle out of his situation. So he sees that there's these figures in a cloud approaching, and he wants to be Superman and investigate. So, of course, Clark is then, like, terrified by this seance there. And there's. There's even a weirder one when he. So I guess they're not working for the Daily Planet at this point. They're working for a TV station news.

>> Guido: Station for Morgan Edge, interestingly, from the, TV show. Yeah, I don't know this.

>> Rob: Oh, yes.

>> Guido: I don't know this era at all. But, yes, it's Morgan Edge. But.

>> Rob: But then Clark needs to. He hears a scream with his super, super hearing. So he has to get out of this meeting, but his boss won't let him out. So he actually, like, sucks all the air out of the room. Like, instead of, like, super breath out, it's like, super breathe in. So everyone starts choking. And then, like, he's able to, like, the meeting gets dismissed.

>> Guido: And I love that. The way he explains it is he's like, oh, that air conditioner is awful today. And, like, everyone starts choking. Like, I. That was also another Superman is a jerk moment. Yeah. So what did you think about this?

>> Rob: Overall, it's a fun little story in a. For what it is. And I actually do like the idea. I guess they had to, like, okay, how did Dracula and Frankenstein come here? They're here after this medium. But then I actually really like the idea that Dracula would be trying to suck Superman's blood. That way he could become immortal. And I don't know if that would actually really work. But, like, I do kind of like that concept that, like, oh, yes, here's someone that would even help me become even more powerful.

>> Guido: Yeah, it's a good motivation at that point. It happens, like, more than halfway through the issue. But, yes, it is fun.

>> Rob: and the thing it really reminded me of, Gito, was another episode we actually just recently covered, because I don't know. I don't know if you got this at all, but it really reminded me of the dynamic between Freddy Krueger and Jason in Freddy vs. Jason. Because in you have Jason not talking, like, the Frankenstein monster, and he's really being a pawn of Freddy. So when you were saying, oh, you didn't necessarily like Jason being A kind of being controlled, didn't like Frankenstein being controlled by Dracula. I got those same exact vibes here.

>> Guido: Yeah. Yeah, I could see that. It is very similar. Yeah. And it's. It, like I said it. Since it feels like those imaginary stories. It is a fun Bronze Age thing. I mean, Kurt Swan's art is always great. There's nothing too exciting in this one. It's a standard panel breakdown. There's no exciting moment. Probably the coolest is the opening splash page when he is, like, dealing with the lightning. It's obviously meant to evoke Frankenstein in that moment, but otherwise, yeah, it's a fun single issue, standalone way of playing with this character intersecting with these other iconic characters.

>> Rob: And there's some of his art here, especially kind of at the seance point that it really reminded me of those kind of Chamber of Secrets kind of art. There's lots of shadows, there's lots of extreme close ups. Did you get that at all?

>> Guido: Yeah, I think it's all on purpose. I mean, they're in a dark and foreboding castle, so. Yes, and this is definitely. I mean, those books have been out for a few years at this point, but this is the core Bronze Age era of those kinds of books. So I think that was the whole point of this issue.

>> Rob: The medium's name is Cassandra, and I could not help but wonder if it was at all named for Cassandra Peterson, who plays Elvira, Mistress of the Dark.

>> Guido: No, because Elvira didn't exist yet.

>> Rob: Oh, okay, then. Never mind.

>> Guido: I suspect it had more to do with the Greek goddess Cassandra, who was like a priestess with. Who would give prophecies to Apollo and was never, ever taken seriously. So I suspect it had more to do with that.

>> Rob: Gotcha. I was just. As soon as I was like. Well, the one with, like, the creepy powers. And she's also like a, you know, an attractive woman who's gonna be named.

>> Guido: After Cassandra Peterson a year before.

>> Rob: Not that anyone would have even known her name at that point, necessarily. That's true.

>> Guido: Would have been fun. Would have been quite the team up to, have Elvira, Frankenstein, Dracula and Superman. But no, that comic hasn't happened yet. Maybe it will. So, I mean, did you want more from this? I know it's not an alternate world, but would you have wanted more of this tale?

>> Rob: It's an interesting, like, idea. Like, I could almost see Dracula being a reoccurring villain to Superman. I guess it's actually similar to Parasite. Right. Because Parasite wants to drain Superman because it makes him super powerful and that would be kind of the same thing here with the Dracula character. So I could see him being recurring. Frankenstein's kind of, as we've said, just along for the ride here. Like, you could take Frankenstein out of this book and have it just be Dracula, and it would. The plot would be exactly the same. I guess they needed someone to, like, go hand in hand, fisticuffs with Superman.

>> Guido: I could deal with, like, restrain him so that Dracula could bite him, which is the plan in the end.

>> Rob: I could deal with Al Frankenstein in the future, but maybe bring back Dracula. What do you think?

>> Guido: Yeah, I think it, I don't know, it works as a standalone story. I don't know how much more I need, but I actually have a question about that for our third segment.

>> Rob: Ooh. Well, then let's ponder some possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted? Averted. Averted. Toe Guido. What are we talking about for pondering possibilities?

>> Guido: Well, we could talk about. We are only a week away from the brand new Frankenstein, so we could talk about that for a moment. But the question I was going to ask is, do you think there is some potential that's untapped these days in public, domain crossovers with superheroes? We've been talking a lot about, like, Marvel DC recently. We've been talking about other things. Elvira. Harley Quinn recently came out. But this was an era which I feel like was more common in the 70s and 80s, where you'd have, like, these literary characters start to show up in the world who were public domain. Robin Hood could show up. Or, you know, you could have Gulliver of Gulliver's Travels. Like, I feel like that happened a lot, and I don't think it happens anymore. Do you think there's potential there? Like, why, again, Dracula does show up in Marvel, so that's an exception. But, like, why doesn't Frankenstein show up?

>> Rob: I don't know. I feel like, Scarlet Pimpernel, Jane Eyre. yeah, I feel like people. And, maybe because of the era that these were written in, I feel like people still think of it having a. Almost a corniness to it. I don't know. It's almost got a Scooby Doo element, which I could hear.

>> Guido: That's an interesting comparison. Very Scooby Doo, huh? Yeah.

>> Rob: Yeah. So I don't know. I think that's. That's. That's where I think, it falls off for people. What do you. Yeah, I don't know.

>> Guido: Yeah, I mean, I think it's cool when it's done. There's like the series Fables. There's been some times that comic writers have used characters obviously intentionally and that's always really interesting. But yeah, in amongst superheroes, that's an interesting idea that it'll feel a little Scooby Doo ish. I guess the question is too, what do you have to gain from bringing them in? Frankenstein's monster, how much of a character is he? So much. Right. The plot of that is the, the thing that you see redone all the time. Maybe that's why Dracula shows up more.

>> Rob: I think you would have to find a character where there's some kind of inherent connection between them. And certainly I think, well, Batman and Dracula. There's a bat, but like that's kind of as far as that goes. Like you want to.

>> Guido: Yeah. Although there's an elseworlds that does that that will read one day.

>> Rob: Yeah, I would definitely read it. But I think like at the end of the day, like for someone like say the, you know, Frankenstein, Frankenstein's monster, I'd want to explore someone who's come back from the dead or something or someone who wants to play God. I mean there's plenty of mad scientists in D.C. and marvel as well. So something along those lines where you're connecting it more thematically rather than like, oh, this would be a fun team up.

>> Guido: yeah. I also think something I struggle with when Dracula shows up all the time is like, I don't fully get why. Because I'm like, do you want. Are you assuming his book. The book exists and then why. Right. Like so why even you know, when Dracula shows up with the X Men or very recently Dracula showed up in the big storyline, event storyline that was happening. Like, why is it Dracula? I mean, at this point it's Dracula. Because Dracula canonically exists in the Marvel universe and has for a long time. So it'd be stupid to rewrite him and come up with someone else. But I guess I just don't. I'm like, you're bringing a whole other world in. Why?

>> Rob: Mm, I think one of the things is that they have these built in rules that everybody knows Frankenstein, is a little more like flexible in that way. But I think with Dracula it's like, okay, like you know, instantly, like sunlight kills him. There's the stakes. He wants blood. And so it's a shorthand for the audience and you can just put him into that audience, into that story. Especially these ongoing reoccurring stories where, you know, people might be Readers might be drifting in and out of it like, oh, Dracula. Okay, I know. I know his deal.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah, that does work. So Guillermo del Toro's Frankenstein. Neither of us have watched the trailer. I think both of us are very excited. I know. I feel like. I don't know, I'm trying not to build it up too much in my head, but I can't stop because I love the actor and I love the director. And this feels like the payoff of Guillermo's career, going from gothic horror to monster horror. It's like, okay, now he gets to put them all together and tell us this incredible story.

>> Rob: So.

>> Guido: So I can't wait to see it.

>> Rob: Yeah, I'm super excited. And I don't know, like, kind of what we said before, I have no idea. What take is he gonna do? Is he gonna be adhering closely to the novel and the monster's gonna be speaking and they end up in Alaska or Antarctica or wherever they end up in the novel? Or is it going to take a little bit more from the Universal films where the monster is less. More sympathetic and also not really, able to speak? I have no idea what direction he's taking it in.

>> Guido: Yeah, I think it's novel, but I also haven't wanted to know. But just from the few still images or headline quotes, it feels like it's novel. But again, knowing that del Toro is a huge fan of Universal and of all of these things, I won't be surprised if this somehow gives you a whole bunch of references in one. Sort of becomes the meta narrative of Frankenstein, but we'll see.

>> Rob: And then this one's coming out right now. But also it's either earlier, later this year, or next year. Maggie Gyllenhaal's the Bride movie with Christian Bale as the monsters coming out, that's, like, set in either contemporary or more contemporary, certainly, than the del Toro movie. But it's so interesting that both of these movies are coming out in short succession. Do you think this is coming from, like, a fear of AI increasing technology? Like, why are both of these stories from Frankenstein happening now in 2025, 2026?

>> Guido: I don't even know. I wonder if on the business side, the complete failure and implosion of the dark monster universe. The dark universe has something to do with it. No, really, but because for.

>> Rob: For.

>> Guido: I mean, probably in some ways, in pre development hell and stuff, it was probably a decade that we kind of understood this was what everyone was gearing up for. So in that decade, people probably steered away from these stories because it was like, why am I going to come out with a Frankenstein if Universal's about to do that? And then when the whole thing collapsed and got called off, maybe it gave people creative license to be like, okay, now I'm going to go tell the story I, want to tell. Like, finally there's room for my story. I think that's potentially an element here too.

>> Rob: Yeah, I think it's probably a little bit of both. The fact that that didn't become a franchise like they wanted it to, along with the fact that technology is more part of our lives than ever before. And there's definitely this fear of technology now. So I think those two things together might be ripe for. Okay, this is the time to tell these stories again.

>> Guido: Yeah. Yeah. Here we are 200 plus years later, and Mary Shelley's view is still, extraordinarily relevant. And that's pretty extraordinary. So happy Halloween, everyone. Or I hope you had a good Halloween. If you're listening to this, after Halloween, but that is a wrap. Dear Watchers, thank you for listening. I have been Guido the Impaler. A Dracula reference if you didn't get it.

>> Rob: And I have been Robinstein.

>> Guido: The reading list is in the show notes. Follow us online at Dear Watchers on social media earwatchers.

>> Rob: And give us a treat, not a trick. Leave a five star review wherever you listen to podcasts and we'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.

>> Guido: Keep pondering the possibilities.