Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Rob: Do you have an insatiable world devouring hunger for multiverses? Well, you are in luck because welcome to Dear Watchers, an omniversal comic book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.
Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey are me n sabagido yet again.
Rob: And I'm Rob. But if I had a drag name, it would be Galactus. OOH. And now we take another trip through a white light of the Mcron crystal. Ah. Uh, but it looks like something came with us this time. It looks like it's WWE SmackDown referee, comic book collector and expert, and Guido's direct competition for all those X books there are in the world. Its friend of the show and committed patron who supports us on. Thank you, Jason Ayers.
Guido: Hi.
Jason Ayers: Hey, what's going on, guys?
Guido: Good evening. It had to be special. We've been waiting for this moment for a long time. So we're so glad to finally welcome you.
Jason Ayers: I'm glad we're able to pull it together. This is cool. I appreciate you having me on.
Guido: So before we get into anything at all, I'm sure our listeners want to know, and I know I want to know more about your comic book origin. And luckily, this episode is coming out just a few days after your fantastic grailtale appearance on our Friends spectales. So I listened to that, and our listeners should go listen to you on that. I know you're going to be making the podcast rounds before you launch your own podcast, which I was so excited to hear, or your own twitch, uh, channel, I should say. Can you tell our listeners where your love affair with them began?
Jason Ayers: Sure of, uh, know, I've been reading comics pretty much all my know, all the way back to a kid. Uh, my dad was in the Marine Corps, so we moved around a lot. And it was one of those things where the two guaranteed interests that no matter where we moved to, no matter what age, what school, whatever, the two things I could guarantee that I was going to be able to connect with somebody else on was either comic books and professional wrestling. No matter what, I'm going to walk into, know, first grade, second grade, 7th grade classroom, and there's going to be somebody that, hey, you like comics? I like comics. We should be, you know, the earliest memories I can remember guilty pleasure to this day, uh, Captain Carrot and his amazing zoo crew. I distinctly remember, uh, being one of the early ones that I was really into. Um, of course, all the Star comics line the Alps and the, uh, Thundercats. I think it kind of transitioned from the cartoons that I was watching over to, hey, there's a comic book of that. That's pretty cool. I should check that out because there wasn't a lot of stores on a lot of the bases that we lived on, because lived in Japan for five years, in Korea for a year, and just kind of all over the place. Um, but at the newsstand, there was always going to be some comic books there, which is also kind of where I started getting into X Men. I think X Men classic was, uh, what I started reading then, you know, that opened up the rabbit hole of all rabbit holes that I'm still diving down to.
Guido: What was it from what you can remember about X Men that first pulled you in, made it your thing?
Jason Ayers: Well, so I didn't read a whole lot of it prior to the Animated Series, which I think also kind of goes back to the cartoons that I watched beginning the comics that I read.
Guido: Right.
Jason Ayers: So, um, it was that Fury Fever around X Men One and the Eight Bazillion issue or copies of that, that were out in the world around, you know, around the same time. And just the larger than life superheroes. Right. Again, just like professional wrestling, the larger than life superheroes completely caught my eye. And bright colors and cool, uh, fights. And then, of course, as you read further and as you really start to dive in, the events and the characters and the interplay, really, the relationships between the characters, I think was what really makes it feel to me more real than a lot of the other, I guess, super team superhero books, um, really drags you in, I guess, is the word.
Guido: It's funny because what you're describing is what I love about X Men. And it's one of the things I've never, ever been into wrestling, ever, for no reason, except it just wasn't a part of my world. And I always think, god, everything I love in X Men is in wrestling. The serialized storytelling, the characters, the relationships, uh, but then all layered on top of or I guess, underneath, like, just ridiculous action and drama and histrionics. So I always think, God, I really wish I'd had more exposure over my life because I see so many similarities between X Men specifically comics in general, but really, X Men specifically.
Jason Ayers: Now, I will say, if you think there's a lot of lore behind X Men to catch up on, try going back to the pro wrestling to get.
Guido: To where we are today.
Rob: Now, Jason, do all wrestlers live on a living island somewhere? Is that true?
Jason Ayers: Uh, I can neither confirm nor deny there's a few I wouldn't hate to send to an island somewhere, but that's neither here nor there.
Guido: And now, as a longtime 30 plus year reader of X Men, you have a goal. And it is my goal. Exactly. And I'm sure there's more of us in the world, but I appreciate that you and I found each other. What is your goal?
Jason Ayers: So I'm about two thirds to three quarters of the way through. Uh, but I am collecting the intent is at least to collect every X book ever, which is easy when you're talking the ongoing series and the things you can find at a dollar bin. But then when you start finding these weird miniseries and one shots and promo books and foreign language books and it gets so out of hand. But, uh, that's what the spare room is for, right?
Guido: Exactly. So when did you decide that that was going to be something you were going to do?
Jason Ayers: Ah, well, it kind of fell into Pandemic again, like I said, with my job, obviously, I travel a lot. Um, and pre Pandemic, I was in the process of trying to collect just the Claremont run. In my mind, I'm like, okay, I'm just going to do the Claremont run. That's my favorite era of X Men of all time. As I go back and reread and you get to a certain point where as you work backwards on it, you get to those low number 100 issues, those high number 90 issues, and the prices get a little exorbitant on those, I'm like, okay, well, I might as well work forward now, right? Those are cheap. Those are easy to get that I can find that anywhere. And then the bug bites in. Well, okay, I finished out. Uncanny. Well, I guess I need to do Excalibur and New Mutants. And X Factor. And X Force. And here we are today, five 6000 books later, or whatever it is. It's been a journey.
Rob: Jason, I think your traveling though, must be an advantage because poor Guido is stuck. Like going to the shops in the New York New Jersey area or Ebay, which we know is super inflated pricing. But you get to go all over the country, uh, and find them at these little hidden stores that might not even know what they have.
Jason Ayers: That's the best. I've got a handful of stores that I like to hit that I know are going to be good stops no matter where I we were talking offline about Ides in Pittsburgh, which is by far one of my favorite. Shops as far as, uh, Dollar Bins, because when you're going for quantity over quality, dollar Bins is by far the way to yeah. You know, it's been cool, and there's been a lot of stores that I'll find just weird variants of things, know? Just OD books that I never knew existed. Until you start digging in those back issue bins and then that opens a whole new rabbit hole again.
Guido: Yeah, exactly.
Rob: And you and Jason and Guido, you have the same goal. So what I'm kind of seeing here is maybe a Wolverine saber tooth kind of thing where you start as friends, but then become enemies as you get closer and closer to that giant side.
Guido: Get to the final ten. We're looking for show down at the okay.
Jason Ayers: Corral no, see, you think of it more like a team up. Right.
Guido: I agree. We're going to help ah each other. I agree. And, uh, what I appreciate is learning on spectales that you, like me, are not that interested in condition as long as it's, like, a decent condition, but you want to be able to touch it, read it, like you're not looking for that book that you're ever going to flip or consider an investment or slab or anything like that. And that's how I am too. I tell the local shops who know that I'm looking for Xmix. I'm always like, I actually want the load of mid grade so I can keep affording to buy all of them. All I want is the COVID intact. Pieces can be cut out, I don't even care. I just want the COVID intact.
Jason Ayers: As long as it looks good in a bag and a board. If I at some point find a way to display them. It's all I'm really looking for.
Guido: That would be some wall you'd need.
Jason Ayers: That'd be the whole house is what that'd be.
Guido: Well, we thank you, love it, Jason.
Rob: For joining us in our house, the house of multiverses today. And if anyone else is joining us, for the first time, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today. Origins of the story, exploring multiversity and pondering possibilities. So thank you as we go on this little journey together.
Guido: And if you want to support us like Jason does, you can go to our Coffee Deerwatchers.com and click join and support. And thank you, Jason, for being a patron of ours and go check it out, dearwatchers.com.
Rob: And with that, dear watchers, welcome to episode 113 and let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travels to today's alternate universe. Today we crystallize yet again to find out the answer to the question, what if the age of apocalypse had not ended as we talked about?
Guido: It really didn't, because it just always.
Rob: Comes out every few years.
Guido: But we are back to what would be Earth two nine five. But since it's a what if, it's actually Earth 96 One. We covered Earth Two Nine Five, the prime AOA, if you will, in a lot of detail over three parts. Just a few episodes back. In the third part, we talked about the what ifs that followed and this is the most direct follow up. We knew we needed an X story for Jason. We know he's an AOA fan, which we're going to hear more about in just a moment. So we chose this as a really direct sequel because some of the other what ifs are more playing with the setup and create alternate alternates. And this one is basically Earth Two Nine Five but on a different Earth.
Rob: So let's talk about our backgrounds in our first segment. Let's head to the blue side of the moon to explore some origins of the story.
Jason Ayers: Right now on this very.
Rob: Show, you're going to get the answer.
Jason Ayers: To all your questions.
Rob: Our amazing story begins a few years.
Jason Ayers: Ago.
Rob: So let's talk a little bit about our backgrounds with the AOA.
Guido: So Jason, what is your background? Were you reading it when it was coming out or when did you discover it, and what is your connection?
Jason Ayers: So AOA hit kind of right in the middle of my prime reading period. So this was what, 90 was it 95 that it dropped, right? So I would have been 13 years old. So just right. I mean, literally right there in the peak of my X Men reading period, there was a long period of time that I didn't kind of drifted away from comics as you do when you.
Guido: Get into those upper high school years.
Jason Ayers: But at 13, man, I was all in. And it was every issue off the newsstand, everything, uh, from Alpha all the way through all of the miniseries and all of the side books and all the way up through Omega and prime. And I distinctly remember I would have been 95. So I would have been in Japan at the time. Um, coming from the newsstand at the base exchange. They called it the department store, basically. And with my copy of X Men Prime. And I come running back towards the house. And then here comes my budy. I can't remember his name, for the life of me. Here he comes with his copy of X Men Prime. We're like, did you read this? I'm like, yes. It's so awesome, right? So, yeah, Age of Apocalypse, it was just such a period of one of those really formative periods of my life, right? So it's just kind of one of those things that I think really locked in my love for X Men. Just that event alone. Not just love for X Men, but also love for alternate universe stories, because it was just such a fleshed out, just fully formed, built world. And even the fact that I listened to you guys obviously, uh, talk about Age of Apocalypse already. But just like you talked about earlier, the fact that it was kind of dropped, you right in the middle of this world that's been going on for however many years at that point in comic book time. But in actuality, an issue for us. Um, and figuring out what's happened in the interim ever since Legion Quest and figuring out all that just absolutely blew my mind at the time. And even still to this day, it's one of my guilty pleasure series. I love going back and rereading.
Rob: Do you think it's a guilty pleasure, or do you think it could just be a pleasure pleasure? What's the guilty part about it?
Jason Ayers: Well, I guess more of a pleasure pleasure. But I think comfort food comics is more, uh, an appropriate term.
Guido: Uh, I guess that's a good way of describing yeah. When's the last time you revisited it that you can remember?
Jason Ayers: Uh, it's been a while. Honestly, just because there's been such an overwhelming number of X books over the last year or two or whatever, um, it's been a minute since I've had a chance to go back and revisit. I think I'm about due.
Guido: I know it's not easy to, uh, read a 40 plus issue storyline. We had to do it over the summer because since I'm a teacher and we had to do it over three episodes, so it takes a long time.
Rob: Well, as the person, too, who read it for the first time for this show, I can say there's a few you can skip.
Jason Ayers: I don't know the completest in me I don't think is capable of doing that.
Guido: Totally not surprised to hear that. I agree completely. And then how much did you stay with all the other things that came after of AOA, like the, um, sort of prequel, one Shots, Tales from the Age of Apocalypse, and then the ten year anniversary miniseries, and then the ongoing in the Rick remender uncondy X Force run. Did you stay with any of that follow up Age of none?
Jason Ayers: Honestly. Uh, and I've picked up most of those, obviously as part of the project. Right. I've picked up most of those issues since then, but I haven't had time to go back and reread them. In my mind, Age of Apocalypse was a self contained few month run, and that's all that happened. And the rest of it just with the exception of this what if issue we're about to talk about, uh, never happened.
Guido: We'll just keep it interesting. Purist. An age of apocalypse. Purist.
Rob: Well, I don't know if you guys see this, but I see a bald man and he think he's on a surfboard. I don't know. But he's leading me into our next segment, which is called Exploring Multiversity.
Jason Ayers: S. Follow me and ponder the question what if?
Rob: Today we are answering the I'm going to say maybe strangely worded question what if the age of apocalypse had not ended? And this is what if? Vol. Two, issue number 81 from Marvel Comics from January 1996.
Guido: It is written by Mariano Nica. Who is Fabian Nica's brother? Of course, Fabian being one of the core architects of the age of Apocalypse. Uh, Mariano wrote about 20 or so Marvel issues, mostly Marvel Comics Presents or a Star Trek series dabbled elsewhere and is actually now a publisher at Apex Comics. It's penciled, inked and colored by Kevin Hopgood, who was a penciler and cover artist, started in UK Comics, but did end up co creating War Machine in Iron Man. Did some penciling and covers for Iron Man later, some IDW and dread stuff. Lettered by Richard Starkings and Comiccraft edited by Mark McLaurin And to kick our discussion off, Jason has a summary of our alternate Earth nine six one.
Jason Ayers: It is two years after the events of X Men Omega as we start off with what if issue number 81 and mutants and humans seem to be back to some sort of a status quo. Following the death of Apocalypse and the doomsday nuclear strike, tony Stark and a group of human refugees, including Bruce Banner, Gwen Stacy, and Sue Storm, amongst others, have been living on the blue area of the moon, occupying the former home of the Watcher. This group of refugees has summoned Magneto and his team of X Men to inform them of an impending threat to humanity. Through the use of the alien surveillance technology that the Watcher had, this group of refugees have spotted an incoming Galactus and Silver Surfer en route to feast on Earth. Tippers flare almost immediately as the human's distrust of mutants stemming from Apocalypse's reign comes to the forefront. Weapon X and a mutated Bruce Banner fight, because, of course, they do. Wayne Taylor, aka night Thrasher, lashes out at the mutants, claiming that they don't need their help. Gwen Stacy and Quicksilver start to get close and begin to fall for each other, and I didn't realize, actually, until I read this, how much Gwen Stacy does look like Quicksilver's ex wife. Crystal definitely has a type, right? The human refugees and the X Men return to Earth, informing the remaining heroes of the impending threat. Uh, and the bigotry against the mutant kind once again takes center stage as the humans argue about whether to trust the mutants to help them. Meanwhile, back on the moon, dwayne Knight Thrasher decides to use an alien mind machine an alien mind machine, whatever that is discovering the Watcher's home to enhance himself and give himself mind weapon powers, whatever that is. Exactly. As the world makes preparations for Galactus's attack, quicksilver and Gwynn are about to hook up, because, of course they are. Before Pietro can seal the deal, however, Galactus arrives. Magneto and crew counterattack, providing cover for Weapon X and a strike team in a cloaked ship to land on Galactus'ship with the intention of blowing it up with hydrogen bombs. In the melee, Dwayne's older brother, Bandit, is killed and with his dying words, tells Dwayne to let go of his hatred for mutants, which is apparently all he needed. Weapon X and team blow up Galactus'ship, taking out the Silver Surfer in the process. However, this isn't enough to completely take out Galactus. Dwayne uses his newly acquired mental powers again, whatever that may be, to unify the entire planet in one singular thought, channeling through himself as a conduit. And this unified thought somehow is enough to take out Galactus, saving the world once again.
Rob: Yay.
Guido: Thank you. That is a perfect encapsulation of a pretty bizarre issue, though I'd say a logical follow up, I guess, starting with just overall impressions. What did you both think?
Jason Ayers: Well, so you mentioned the penciling, and was it penciling, inking, and coloring, all done by the same artist?
Rob: Yes.
Jason Ayers: Um, I thought it had a very unique art style to it. Um, any story beats and story elements aside, um, the art on that book was so striking to me. Uh, this was the first time I'd read that particular issue, obviously, um, like we discussed. But the visual of it was just, I thought, the best bit of it. Um, the story was interesting, to say the least. Um, I still don't understand exactly what it was that took out Galactus. How the mind power of the entire world took him down. Whatever. Okay, that's fine. I'm fine with it.
Guido: Uh, yeah, it's definitely an OD. Uh, oversimplification that they're going for. Here a quick, as you described, unexplainable thing with a ridiculous name, the Mind Machine and the mental powers. And it's like, what actually happened?
Jason Ayers: We'll hit him with the thing. Whatever. The thing is, we'll hit him with the thing.
Guido: I didn't even realize it was Night Thrasher.
Rob: Yeah, we actually had to look it up because we're m like, who is this guy that's getting a lot of page time?
Guido: What's funny is Fabian Nicieza created Night Thrasher and New Warriors, but, uh, maybe his brother loved him, I don't know.
Jason Ayers: And the thing is, I didn't realize because Dwayne kind of jumped out in my mind when he kept referring to Dwayne this and Dwayne that. I'm like, I think I know this name. So, same thing. It took me a minute to figure out who they were talking about, but I didn't realize that there was an older brother that actually did exist. I thought this was just something made up for the what if issue.
Rob: And he was also a Night Thrasher at one point. Now I'm even thinking maybe it's like sustand Ins for the Nicieresa brothers. Two brothers, both writing comics. Two brothers, both as a night thrasher.
Jason Ayers: It's an interesting thought, right?
Guido: Which one got the mental powers, though?
Rob: Well, of course, the term deus mahina means God by machine, and that's really what we have here in both senses. He becomes a god by a machine and it's also a deus esmahina, uh, in terms of a storytelling device where, oh, we're just going to introduce this thing that you've never heard of before, that's suddenly going to give this person powers and ultimately wins the day, all because of this machine that we don't really know about.
Jason Ayers: Trust us, this makes sense.
Guido: I think one thing. Rob, you sort of talked about the OD question. I think the question is odd because it's not the question that they're answering. So it makes me wonder if this was, I don't know, almost intended to be a sort of one shot sequel book, or because they were like, following Jason's Purest rules and they didn't want there to be a sequel. They put it in a what if. But it really is just a sequel. It's not what if. The age of Apocalypse hadn't ended it's two years later and it's not giving us anything to connect to from the original story. Uh, by putting Galactus in it, it's just escalating everything beyond the stuff that, of course, we all love from the age of Apocalypse, the character beats and the team dynamics and the politics and all of that. So it's, uh, strange because it really is just a sequel.
Rob: No. If I was to see that name or that question, what if the age of Apocalypse had not ended? I think the first panel is Apocalypse's severed body slowly reforming back together. That's like the start of this. Oh, and Apocalypse is back. He's angry now. He's pissed off. That, to me, is like the sequel here. Yeah, I think, you're know, they really just kind of wanted to continue the story in this. But I think the question would more be like, what if Galactus tried to take over the Age of Apocalypse universe? Or something like that.
Jason Ayers: Yeah, because there was really nothing apocalypse about any of this. Right. There was nothing multiversal to it. If the question is going to be, what if the age of Apocalypse never ended? Well, then wouldn't the lead off know, like you said, Apocalypse coming back together? Or even just Magneto's final attack didn't work, and we go from there, or something along those lines. I don't know. But you're right, it felt more like an attempt at a sequel, um, almost like a backdoor sequel project, uh, than anything.
Guido: Mhm and as a sequel too, it doesn't even give us how the world survived, which I get that we weren't in an era in 1996 when this came out. And actually, this is January, so this is like less than six months after the conclusion of Age of Apocalypse. So this comes out quickly, and we're not in an era of lots of complex multiversal storytelling, but we saw the world end at the end of Age of Apocalypse, and this just sort of opens and is like, well, the world didn't end. These characters just continued. No explanation. I sort of would have liked maybe a little emchronism in the beginning, but there was just nothing to explain it. Mhm, which might have overcomplicated it for sure, but I would have appreciated more detail.
Jason Ayers: It was just almost like JK, they went in a bubble, they're fine.
Guido: Yeah, exactly.
Jason Ayers: Okay.
Guido: All right.
Rob: I kind of took it more as that we are just in a totally different timeline or different multiverse, where everything else happened except the universe wasn't erased at the end. That's kind of how I read it in kind of that what if uatu ah, multiverse storytelling type again, that's not.
Guido: Really on the opening page. It says they escaped in a magnetic force bubble that carried them into space as the bomb fell below them and a blinding white brilliance filled the sky. Which I take to mean like, when the emcon, um, crystal closed off the age of Apocalypse. And then it says, that was two years ago. So then it jumps ahead.
Rob: But then I would almost ask too the question, why do they even want to save the Earth if no one else is on there? Because couldn't they let Galactus just eat the Earth and they're just going to live the rest of their life out on the Moon? I don't think Galactus wants to eat the moon. There's nothing on the Moon that is going to sustain him. Right. So if there's no human beings on the Earth, why try to even save Know?
Jason Ayers: And it looked like they're trying to go with the story that everybody just moved to Asia and is like, the only thing they got blown up with was North America. The rest of the world's fine, because that's totally how that works, right?
Guido: Yeah. Because they are in Euroasia, uh, in this. So they are all now, you both.
Rob: Are much bigger X Men fans than me. I'm curious what your thoughts are on this story. Really focusing on Pietro Quicksilver. Like, he's definitely one of our bigger characters. I thought it was interesting that there's a few characters, like Rogue, who's a big character in AOA, who gets like, one line, gambit. I don't even know if Gambit has.
Guido: Just drawn into the background, but again, doesn't it's implied he dies in X Men.
Rob: O, marvel. That's true.
Guido: So I don't understand why he was in this.
Rob: Yeah, I was thinking, like, what were your thoughts on these big, super kind of iconic characters who are really not taking a seat? Pietro, I guess just because I haven't read as much X Men as you both, I mean, to me, he doesn't seem like a super interesting character to be kind of our human emotion that we kind of follow through this story. So what did you think of that focus on him?
Jason Ayers: I thought it was an interesting choice to go with, like you said, more of a background character like that. I, uh, don't want to say a B level character, but kind of a B level character. And at the same time, really, there wasn't much to his story aside from love story, which seems to be the direction we end up going with Quicksilver. Just about every time we meet him is here's Quicksilver, and here's his new love interest. And it doesn't end well every time. So I thought it was an interesting choice. They did use some of the A level stars, the Weapon X, Wolverines and so on, but it felt kind of shoehorned trying to fit in some of those. Look, it's Gambit and he's in the background. Uh, Rogue gets a line. It felt like they were shoehorning in just enough to give you, okay, these are the ones, you know, and here's the ones you might not.
Rob: Yeah, mhm.
Guido: Yeah, I agree. And then the Silver Surfer's appearance and Galactus made me think that there was something I liked about it that I think actually makes the. Story boring. What I liked about it is I realized in my mind, I was like, wait, they look exactly the same. And in my mind, I realized, of course they would, because the age of apocalypse isn't that different a world. It's only different from the point that Xavier gets killed and on. So Galactus and silver surfer should still function the same. They're out in the cosmos. They're not related to earth. But then, uh, that makes this a really boring story where there was nothing interesting that was different about the characters that were new to the AOA, silver surfer and galactus.
Rob: And the surfer literally doesn't even have a line in this, even though he's got a decent amount of page time, but he doesn't even have a line. I think going back to what we were saying about the question and some of the stuff that you and I, Guido, were postulating on our last episode, following doing the main AOA story, what I think would have been much more interesting to me would be apocalypse the character versus galactus. What if we have this devourer of worlds coming to eat apocalypse's world that apocalypse has spent decades, centuries trying to conquer? He's finally conquered it, and now galactus is coming to eat it. What does apocalypse do? Does he partner with the people he's been oppressing? What is that story? Does he try to reason with galactus? I think that's a really interesting story, these two arch villain, power hungry people facing each other. But here, uh, yeah, the galactus is just like, a big threat, and really, we don't care about him as a character at all.
Guido: And how would apocalypse's survival of the fittest play out when he encountered galactus?
Rob: Totally.
Guido: Would he just accept that he's not as strong? I agree. That could have been an interesting question.
Jason Ayers: And it also kind of glosses over the hook of age of apocalypse, at least for me, which was the different twists on these, like, here's the characters that, you know, here's wolverine, but look, he's missing a hand. Or here's cyclops, but he's actually a cyclops and only has one eye. Just these different takes on characters that you know, and different twists on them. And then, like you said, here'silver surfer, here's galactus, there'silver surfer and galactus. Deal with it. It's not an interesting story at all from that end of things. And then at the same time, you've got some of these characters that we do know, like hulk banner, for example. How did he get his powers? Is there a story there? We saw just for about, what, one panel of face popping out of his chest, but then from the rest of the book, he's just hulk.
Guido: I don't he's well, he's the hulk. I like that. His name is the thing.
Rob: Yeah, that was clever. Yeah. I think it would have been interesting, too, for them. In very X Men like to explore the still hatred for mutants because the Night Thrasher character still hates mutants because of everything that Apocalypse has done, which, you'd see, it makes sense. But he hates the mutants so much that he's still willing to almost he's willing to not even partner with them, even though his own death would be inevitable. When it comes to Galactus. So I think there could been more story there, too, for them to explore. It's like, what if your hatred is so powerful that it would literally stop you from saving yourself in a situation like that? And that, to me, seems very X Men, but they don't really fully kind of go into that. Instead, his hatred is very surface level. And as you kind of said, Jason, in your summary, all it takes is one word from his dying brother to kind of solve him of that.
Jason Ayers: Yeah, I feel like it was one of those situations where, okay, this is an X Men story. We have to use the X Men as a stand in for Oppressed minority group. So they have to be hated, and we'll just use that and move on with it. Like you said, it's completely surface level. And again, it looks like something that would be interesting, but just doesn't go far enough to make it actually interesting.
Guido: Yeah, it's quite mhm um, it's interesting because the, uh OD. I'm intrigued by the art, and I don't know if I like it or dislike it. I appreciate that you like it, Jason. And I like some of the CG panels, especially, like, when Night Thrasher gets the powers. I like the way he's designed, and I think that's cool looking. What's interesting is I was looking up Kevin Hopgood because I thought, oh, he must have know, like a Joe Jusco, Greg Hildebrandt style painter. And maybe this was early in his career because, um, um, there's not a lot of detail in it, but he actually doesn't do this style. He draws in pencil. Again. He co created War Machine. He's done some really classic 90s Iron Man covers. Like, he's a typical pencilr. So he must have just been experimenting, which is kind of cool and I think adds to it a little. He was probably playing with, like, computer colorization or something.
Rob: Yeah, I really love the art. It reminded me I'm a big Richard Corbin fan, and it reminded me of some of that Richard Corbin art that he was probably doing around the same time with Den Saga, where he's using the computer graphics and there's a few panels, I think, like Galactus's first appearance. Amazing when Night Thrasher first gets the powers, and it's like Lawnmower Man kind.
Guido: Of almost going, yeah, that's what I like, uh, a lot.
Rob: And then when he uses the mind power, that doesn't make any sense at all. And he's got, like, the it's like, uh, very 2001, just this light shooting through his head. And those are really cool. So, overall, I think the art was one of the best parts of the issue for me.
Jason Ayers: It's very intriguing and very different. Like you said, I don't know necessarily that I like it. Jury is still out on that. But it's very intriguing and it's very striking, mhm because it's different. The fact that you said he is just a traditional pencilr. Um, I say just he's a traditional pencilr, as opposed to, like you said, a painter or CG artist or anything like that. I would love to see the process behind how this art came together on this book.
Guido: Yeah, I agree totally. And before we move on to talk about the age of Apocalypse overall and the future of it, do either of you want more of this book? Do either of you want more of Earth 96 one?
Jason Ayers: I think I'm good. I think this is a perfect wrap up for a multiverse of a multiverse of the physics of that alone is mind boggling.
Guido: That it's a spin off of a spin off.
Jason Ayers: It's like.
Rob: Yeah, if anything, I think with so many of the what if books that we've covered, this is one of the ones that falls into the category where this would have maybe been a really good three part series or something like that, where you could have really expanded on a lot of the questions that we're asking here. How did they get there? Why does the Silver Surfer have any conflicts over here, which is such a big part of his character often, but they don't really have the room to do this in 25 pages. So I think if I had gone back to this, I would have wanted to see this really expanded to two, three, four books.
Guido: Yeah. More time with Pietro and Gwen mhm more time with Night Thrasher and his brother. Yeah, I think all of that would have helped it. I don't necessarily want it, but I think more of it would have helped it.
Jason Ayers: There's the beginnings of a lot of really interesting story beats in there, but like you said, uh, just not enough time to flesh it out. So you might be onto something. It might have been better served as a longer form series, but in the form that we got, I'm good with one.
Rob: Well, I'm using my mind powers, quote, unquote, to eradicate this segment and move us into our final segment pondering possibilities.
Jason Ayers: Will the future you describe be averted, diverted?
Rob: Now, Guido, I should know this because I have the mind powers to tap into every mind on the planet. Uh, of course, you know that already. But just to humor me, what are we talking about? Um, exactly what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?
Guido: Well, we're going to hear from Jason because, uh, in our part three in our coverage of Age of Apocalypse, we talked a little bit about do we want more stories from Earth Two nine five? Would we want it back in comics. And then we speculated a little on could it work on screen. So, Jason, we want to know from you what you want from the AOA. Could it persist, or are you going to stick with your AOA started and ended, and that's where it should live. And tell us know.
Jason Ayers: Uh, I'll be honest with you. I feel like there's enough newer characters, even since, um help me out here. When was the last AOA miniseries? How many years ago has that been? Has it been a decade, maybe?
Guido: Close to it, yeah.
Jason Ayers: A little less so even just in that last ten years, all of the new characters that have been developed and introduced and what have you, that could be interesting additions to that world. Different twists on some of these newer characters and different twists on Maybe and I hate to do, like, X Men 92, House of 92, but like, twists on the Krakoa era or some of that sort of thing and introduce some of those elements. I feel like it's something that could be revisited and made pretty interesting with the tools that they have available to them now. Um, even just since that miniseries ten years ago, or whatever it was, or.
Guido: The thing you just made me think of and I might have mentioned this might have been offline when Rob and I were talking a lot about this series is just how good the writing of Apocalypse in the Krakoa era is. That he becomes, uh, the best character he's ever been, I think. So take that take that version of apocalypse and meld it with the two nine five age of apocalypse. And I think that'd be really cool because the Krakoa era apocalypse just, uh, I don't know, has emotion, has character, has personality in a way that the character hadn't before. And I'd love to see that in the know, all powerful, dominating oppressor. I would just love to see more personality shine through. It would be cool, I think.
Jason Ayers: Yeah, definitely. And like you said, for the first time in 30 some odd years that the character has been in existence, it's the first time I feel like he's actually got a personality and a reason and a motive for why he does what he does. He's not just survival of the fittest. That's my thing. He actually has a reason. And like you said, if you put some of that into now, would it be a situation of Burkoa era apocalypse as the bishop from our world popping into that age of apocalypse, oh, my God. Or even just introduce some of those Arocco, uh, characters into the age of apocalypse? I don't know.
Guido: There's a million different ways to imagine. I love that. And it matches with at one point. Again, it might have been offline. I don't remember now, Rob, but you had said that if there was a two nine five, meet six one six, you'd love to see like Apocalypse versus Apocalypse.
Rob: No. Yeah, we talked about that on the show. Yeah. I think it's interesting that you're saying that, because that would work perfectly. Now, I'm curious, Jason, you're a ex aficionado, so I don't know if you can be impartial, but do you think that Age of Apocalypse is something if you don't have much knowledge of the X Men, can you go into it? And I'm just thinking, like, when the inevitable screen adaptation might come around, do you think this is something they could just kind of launch into? Or do you really need background as to who all these characters are and what their machinations are and their relationships with each other?
Jason Ayers: Uh, I feel like it depends on what characters are introduced in Age of Apocalypse. Right. It's one of those stories that you need so much backstory, like you said, to understand who they are and why things are the way they are. And why should I care, right, to tell that story properly. But if it's just the characters that people would know from, um, prior, uh, adaptations, the Cyclopses, the Gene Greys, the Xaviers, the Gambits, the Wolverines, and then obviously Apocalypse, but if you introduce maybe a couple of new characters in with that, okay, maybe you could get away with that. But I feel like it's something that would be better served as a third 4th, 5th if there was an MCU mutant project, that would probably be a good later series after we've really been given a reason to care about these characters and about who they are and what makes them them. Because there's so much that it plays on as far as backstory that you lose a lot without having that.
Guido: M, you are talking so much about the characters we should have asked earlier in this episode. Who is your favorite Age of Apocalypse character?
Jason Ayers: Well, that's a tough. Um, I i do like Weapon X, just for the simple fact that it's such an iconic visual of oh, it's Wolverine, but with no hand. Right. I think for Age of Apocalypse, at least, the Wolverine visual, um, the Cyclops visual, I think is really striking. Um, a lot of them are just palette swaps or let's throw a cape on them of characters that we know. But I think those two in particular are the ones that really jump out. And then obviously, Sunfire with that visual that he's got, I think is really interesting. Um, I think Dark Beast is really interesting. But in hindsight, from where we are now, is Dark Beast really that different from Beast?
Guido: I don't know.
Jason Ayers: I don't know if that loses a lot. Right.
Guido: No. Well, and though that could be another interesting convergence, is if 6116 Beast at this point meets Dark Beast, they'd probably quite admire each other, right?
Jason Ayers: Similar goals.
Rob: Right?
Guido: Yeah. Um, and while we have you, what do you want to see from X Men on screen? In.
Jason Ayers: Know? I think it's been attempted twice. I would love to see a good Dark Phoenix adaptation.
Rob: You're going back to that? Well, again, two tries at it.
Guido: Third time's the charm.
Jason Ayers: But I don't think that's the project to lead with. Right. I think there needs to be an origin not necessarily an origin story per se, but something to really introduce whoever the new captain, whoever the new not just actors, but also cast of characters that we're going to meet in the MCU version of the X Men. I think we need to introduce those in a project first. But um, then there's just so many iconic stories that could be gone back and told between Dark Phoenix, between days of future, past Age of Apocalypse. Obviously, once we get there, um, even up into some of the new X Men stuff, some of the astonishing, uh, X Men stuff, krakoa era, there's just, there's so many projects that I think would translate really well either to the big screen or even to a uh, series.
Guido: Right.
Jason Ayers: Like M. There's so much there to work with once it gets launched.
Rob: Yeah, we were saying on the show, even the Sentinels, which feel so iconic, they just never were really done super well in the movie. So just do a good Sentinel story. Basically. You could copy kind of the Age of Apocalypse storyline a little bit from the animated series and do something like that.
Guido: Well, I was just about to say there's all these 90s stories that I think even X fans sometimes like to make fun of because they think it's cool. But I bet you since we're the same age, are like me and like Operation Zero Tolerance.
Jason Ayers: Yeah, all of those, uh, it's a.
Guido: Huge crossover towards Sentinels.
Jason Ayers: Right. And that was kind of towards the end of uh, me really starting to fall out on X Men. But like you said, there's just so many story options. M the zero tolerances and just all of that. I mean, there's very few projects that I don't think would translate in some degree as a decent show, movie, miniseries, whatever the case may be. Tweak it, maybe. But uh, there's a lot to pull from, for sure.
Guido: Yeah, there is. And I do wonder when we'll see it, if we'll see it and what that'll look like. So, anything else on Age of Apocalypse before we wrap this journey up?
Jason Ayers: I think I'm good.
Rob: I'm sure this won't be the last time that we'll be hearing from the AOA on Dear Watchers.
Guido: No. And hopefully it's not the last time we hear from Jason Ayers because there are so many X alternate universes that I want to have you back on for.
Jason Ayers: I'd love to come back on. This is fun.
Guido: Good. And so as we begin to close our journey, we do not have a giveaway this week, but summer's not yet over. We do have one more giveaway of our signed comic bundle. So keep listening, but thank you. Jason Ayers, legend and hero. Please let people know where to find you because everyone should find you. And please tell us what you can about what you're up to and what you're going to be up to, for sure.
Jason Ayers: So, easiest, uh, way to get a hold of me, social media. I'm, um, Jason Ayers WWE on literally everything from MySpace to X to everything under the sun. Uh, pretty easily accessible. Um, going to be starting a twitch stream here before long. Uh, that's going to be kind of the next big project for me on a personal level, as far as with comic, uh, book related stuff. But obviously you can catch me every Friday night on SmackDown on Fox TV. I'm, um, the jerk in the stripes. I'm the only one with a beard. Please don't yell at me, too. Uh, obviously, uh, premium live events, we're calling them now on Peacock, uh, network.
Guido: Awesome. And you're on cameo, or you're going.
Jason Ayers: To be I am on cameo, yeah. If you need me to give you a ruling or talk to you about X Men or whatever, I'm on there. I'm open to creative ideas.
Rob: Well, thank you so much, Jason. This was so much fun. I'm so glad we finally got you on the show. And that is a wrap. Dear Watchers, thank you for listening. I've been guido and I have been rob. The reading list is in the show notes, and you can follow us on social media at Dear Watchers.
Guido: Leave a review wherever you listen. And in the words of Uatu, keep pondering the possibilities.