Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Rob: Welcome to Dear Watchers in Omniversal comic book podcast, where we do a, uh, deep dive into the multiverse.
Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey are me, Gito I mean, E absolute Rob.
Rob: Sure. Maximum rob. Our special guest, or should I say guests, since he is bonded with his symbiote made out of entirely of Golden Age key issues. It's. Returning guest, Joey Presquez. Hi, Joey.
Joey: Hi, guys.
Guido: I'm trying to picture what that would even look like. Like a sort of almost wallpaper. You've been decoupaged with EC comics all over your body.
Joey: I would be a complete mess. Brown and brittle, just like I am.
Guido: Joey, you joined us on episode 58 almost a year ago, back in August 2022, for an interview. And because you are the back end and high acquisition buyer for Midtown Comics, and recently we've spent time together on Comic, buying Odyssey, recently, Long Island. And before we get into our show, are there any comics you've recently bonded with? Clever Rob? Rob wrote that.
Joey: Uh, let's see. I recently picked up some like, I've been going after some EC comics. Matter of fact, when we went to, uh, that convention in Long Island, I picked up a number one Panic, um, for like, $10. How cool is that? I mean, it's a little beat up, but why not something that you don't find in the bins at all? So I was very happy to find that and then also picked up some, uh, Golden Age Captain Marvel Jr. Recently, too, which I'm super excited about.
Guido: Oh, fun.
Joey: Mhm.
Rob: Now, before we begin today's trip, Gito, what's new in our little section of the multiverse?
Guido: Well, those who've been joining us know that I count down every episode. And this being 98, there's actually only one between this and 100 regular episodes because we did record some bonus episodes or actually over 100 episodes, but we're just counting the regular journeys to multiversal lands. So as we approach 100, we have some surprise gifts coming to our coffee members and supporters who we are always so appreciative of, Joey included. And we have giveaways during episode 100. So make sure in two weeks you listen in to our episode 100, which will be filled with lots of countdowns and excitement. And then, uh, this is not something I usually share. And Rob, I'm going to surprise you with this, but I don't know why I feel compelled, but we just saw a Broadway play that had me thinking a lot about Story White Girl in Danger, fantastic play musical. And it had me thinking about how much I love ambitious storytelling. And I realized, because we're also watching Mrs. Davis, which I highly recommend on Peacock to anyone, and I realized, I don't think I had realized 100 episodes ago. That part of why I wanted to start this podcast is because What Ifs and alternate universes and all of that, they're really ambitious storytelling. They trust the audience. And I've been thinking so much about that the last three days since we saw that show. It's a very multilayered meta show, but just trust the audience. And that's true for Mrs. Davis and White Girl in Danger and just assumes, like, I don't need to make this digestible for you. I don't need to package it for you. And I think that's why I love alternate universe storytelling. And I wanted to share that in our what's new? Segment because I've been thinking a lot about it.
Rob: We'll be counting down some of those favorite alternate universes in just two episodes.
Guido: I know. Maybe we need to count down, like, other things that we don't normally talk about, like Broadway shows or TV shows or the things that we also love.
Rob: Types of food.
Guido: Yeah, exactly. Really transform the podcast number seven, pot pie. So anyway, that's it. That's what's new this week.
Rob: Well, if you're joining us for the first time, we are not counting down our favorite foods in alternate universes just yet. But we have three parts of our journey today. Origins of the story. What inspired this other reality? Exploring multiversity. We dive deeper into our alternate universe and pondering possibilities. We examine the impact and what's followed or coming in the future.
Guido: And remember, please leave a review wherever you're listening. Even if you've left a review, go leave it somewhere else because we want many reviews to build our audience as we go into our next 100 episodes.
Rob: And with that, dear Watchers, welcome to episode 98 and let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travels to today's alternate universe. Today, we head to an alternate Earth right after the first secret wars to ask the somewhat strangely worded question what if the alien costume had possessed Spider Man? The alien costume. We all know that.
Guido: And this is Earth 1089, numbered for the month and year of the issue that it first appears in. And we'll talk a lot more about Earth 1089 and Spider Man's black costume. And before Rob gives us some background on that, joey, you picked this story for us. Why did you pick this story? Before we get into our segments, this.
Joey: Uh, issue, I think, for What If Stories really does a great job of exploring a narrative. So we have this plot device, which is the black costume, but we've only ever at this point, have seen it associated with Spider Man. And so in Eddie Brock and everything that is within the Spider verse, for lack of better term here, uh, we have this plot device being the costume doing, uh, the things that people had actually thought of and were the kind of conversation that fans, uh, were having at that point, especially during the 80s. Just like, what else could this costume do? Which we will talk about later um, with the other things that we're exploring. But how expansive is this alien and what can it do? What can it not do? Uh, and who else can it bond with? Which, uh, kind of gets a little funky, uh, especially later on in this issue, which this is one of my favorite, uh, what if stories.
Rob: Mhm.
Guido: Great. What a good tease for the plot of what we're about to explore. But Rob is going to kick us off with some background on Spiderman's black suit.
Rob: Yes. So to paraphrase from the website Collider, in 1982, a Spider Man fan named Randy Shuler sent in a submission to Marvel after the publication's announcement of a competition to come up with new ideas for its comic book universe. Schuler suggested a black still style suit with red accents that would enhance Spidey's abilities and would be designed by Reed Richards for the tech and of course, the famed fashion designer Janet Van Dyne for the look. I had to make sure that that was correct. But yes, she was a fashion designer.
Guido: Of course she was. Everyone knows that, of course.
Rob: Uh, and Marvel's editor in chief Jim Shooter loved Schuler's pitch so much, he bought the idea from him for the sum, the vast sum of $220, which would be roughly $500 today. So still not a lot. And Randy said on CBR in 2007, quote, since Marvel paid me for the story, I have no real gripe. But I do feel bad that they didn't give me any kind of acknowledgment in the comics. Something like costume concept by Randy Schuler or thanks to Randy Schuler for the inspiration. Or Randy Schuler. You spidey fanboy stud. You rock.
Guido: He had really high opinion of himself.
Rob: I've written to Tom DeFalco before, but I've got a no response. Maybe Marvel is afraid I'll sue them or something, but that's not the case at all. I don't want any money. I don't want any legal rights to the Venom character. All I want is this. I'm mentioning the letters column of Amazing Spiderman recognizing me as the nameless fan who sparked the idea for the black suit, which eventually led to the idea for Venom, which eventually became the basis for this freaking monster movie we call Spiderman Three. That's all I want. This, of course, came out around the time of Spiderman Three, and Randy kind of sort of got his wish in 2019, when, in honor of Marvel's 80th anniversary, Schuler's original idea was brought to life in Sensational Spiderman self improvement from Peter David and Rick Leonardi, which was a story based on Randy's original plot. The book also included Randy's original pitch with notes from Tom DeFalco.
Guido: That's wild. I haven't read that. But I hope that they gave him the credit he wanted, though I hope that they did not call him a Spidey fanboy stunt.
Rob: I believe it said based on, uh, based on a plot or based on a story by Randy schiller. That's what it says.
Guido: Yeah. It's so fascinating. What an origin.
Rob: Yeah, they should put his name in the teeny tiny credits that come at the end of the Marvel, maybe in.
Guido: The MCU, when we see the black costume Spider Man, he will be in that special. Thanks.
Joey: What's interesting is that the black costume, this design that Randy had, the one with, like, the red emblem across, that was only ever seen once. So if you're able or have a, uh, Marvel age number twelve, there is a sketch of the costume with the red emblem, which later on would be white.
Guido: Oh, how fun.
Rob: And when they did do the sensational Spider Man in 2019, they did make it red. So they were acknowledging Randy's original vision there because we all know the white version. But, Gito, you're going to tell us a little bit of the tangled history of seeing the Symbiote suit in the comics?
Guido: Yes, because we all well, we don't all, but a lot of people think the black suit debuts in Secret Wars number eight, which we read today. And we'll talk about why in a moment. But in fact, it had debuted about seven months earlier in Amazing Spiderman 252. And the COVID of that quite famous is by Klaus Janssen and Ron friends and is a bit of an homage to Amazing Fantasy 15 and says the rumors are true. Introducing the new Spider Man. But what's odd, of course, is Amazing Spiderman 252 takes place after the events of Secret Wars. So, of course, it spoils the outcome of Secret Wars, both that Spider Man lives and that he has this new look. And as is usually the case with fans of these properties, they were mixed on the new look. But Marvel had already committed to Secret Wars, and of course, we know that's had huge tie ins and merchandising stuff going on, so there was not much they could do. But to please fans, they decided to have Peter shed the new suit with the help of the Fantastic Four. And of course, this is what leads into the storyline of it being a Symbiote and then joining Eddie Brock. And even after the Symbiote was gone, peter actually then wore a black suit that was created with help from the Black Cat, a major part of our story today. But then the backsuit reminded him too much of Venom or Mary Jane too much of Venom. And he was concerned about that dynamic, so he stopped wearing it. And years later, of course, there are other iterations of his black suit. It's been featured in films, it's been hinted at in the MCU, and then the other version of it, I guess, if you will. Venom, um, has shown up quite a bit. So let's talk black costume and Venom.
Rob: Yes. So, Joey, since you're our special guest, let's start with you. So what is your background with the black costume and with Venom and the symbiote.
Joey: So I was essentially, of course, deep into comics, especially during the 90s, like late eighty s and ninety s. Todd, uh, McFarland is on Spiderman and that's when everything kind of takes off. And I was a huge fan of the black costume. I thought Spiderman was so cool at this point in his, uh, story arc. And Todd's art was just like popping off the page and so getting to kind of see the narrative of uh, the Torment series with the lizard and everything that Todd was doing on Spider. Like, I was totally bought in. So you get, uh, issue 198, 199, 300, which we're familiar with Amazing Spiderman. And so you've got all of the things that are getting ready to set up like Eddie Brock, his introduction, and then the symbiote itself, uh, bonding itself to Eddie. Then we get Venom, and then it takes a whole dark turn for, uh, the Spiderman narrative. Amazing Spiderman at this point has gone in so many different ways. Death of Gwen Stacy. So there's all of these really dark tones in amazing, uh, Spiderman. But here we have a very dangerous character and he's fueled by nothing but just hate for Spiderman. Uh, and so all of that is just kind of compounded with everything that's happening with, uh, Todd's narrative. And I was just completely bought in. And I've always been a fan. And uh, later on, uh, which we'll get to later, we have all of the more recent Venom stuff like the Donnie Kate's and Ryan Otley run, uh, which I found absolutely brian Stegman, I'm sorry, um, run, that I thought was just so much fun. Especially a fantastic way to revisit the character and really kind of see what this character, what that symbiote can do.
Guido: Mhm, yeah. So really been a large part of your fandom, it sounds like.
Joey: Oh, absolutely.
Rob: How about you? Because I know you're not as big of a Spider Man person.
Guido: No, I'm not at all a Spider Man person. Really? I don't dislike the character, but I've never read Spider Man for an extended time. However, being a comic fan when this was happening in the 80s, my best friend at the time, uh, for much of my childhood, who loved comics, loved Spider Man. And I remember he was very into the black costume as it was happening and very into Venom and Todd McFarland's work. So it was around me, but it was just never my thing. So I know a lot about it. But it was actually probably when the Spider Man Venom omnibus came out 30 years after that, in the 2000s that I picked it up and decided to finally read some of that. And I like it. I like it, Joey, for some of the reasons you're saying the darkness there is fun to see brought into a character like Spider Man. But yeah, it's just not something I'll ever care that much about. And then i, uh, do have to say I'm not a fan of the Symbiote mythology. I've read all the recent, like, The King in Black and Absolute Carnage and Donny Kate's Run, and there are elements of it I like, but it's just not something I can ever really get into. I don't care about Null, I don't care about any of these things, um, very much so, uh uh, it's not my thing. But I'm excited to see if it shows up in the MCU, and I'm excited to have explored it a little differently today at this angle. Rob, what about you?
Rob: I think the origin of this Symbiote story I first saw on the animated series, on the Spiderman animated series from the 90s, which, of course, is a different origin story because it's not Secret Wars. And I think maybe J. Jonah Jameson's son brings it back from one of his astronaut trips or something like that. But that's the first time I saw it there. But then in the comics, my big introduction, mainly to Venom, was Maximum Carnage. I was the exact right age. I was doing weekly tap dance lessons at the mall, and after my tap and singing lessons, I would go to the comic book store and the Baskin Robbins, not in that order, necessarily. And I would get comics.
Guido: And just to make clear, in case any listeners are like, wow, that is the most, uh, eighty s. Ninety s thing. You took tap dancing at the mall every week, and the comic store was there. I just want to add that you were wearing sequins when this happened, because I've seen the pictures, I've seen the videos.
Rob: But then we would perform in the mall, uh, on the weekends and stuff like that.
Guido: Child right after Tiffany and Debbie Gibson performed. Up next is Rob, the tap dancing.
Rob: Child achieve breaky hearts and all denim. Um, and yes, so I would get those. So at 93, I was the exact right age. This was when I was buying comics as a little kid, or someone was buying comics for me. And so I was reading the Maximum Carnage series in real time, but I was never really into Venom, um, as a character by that point. He was this anti hero, so he wasn't really a villain, and I didn't really care too much. And then Carnage seemed kind of cool, but then I never really got into the other Symbiotes because they all looked exactly the same. And I like my villains really super different. And I really actually liked the Spider Man Three movie. It was kind of my favorite of the Sam Raimi M movies. I haven't revisited them in years, so I don't know if that will hold up. But at the time, I actually thought it was a lot of fun. And I've only seen the first Venom movie, which I kind of thought was, uh, a snooze and really have no interest in revisiting that agreed. That's where I'm at.
Joey: I haven't even seen the second one.
Guido: Because, um.
Rob: We'Re going to change out of this boring old red and blue outfit and change into something spicy and new. It's point of, um, origin and origins of the story.
Joey: Right now on this very show, you're going to get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago.
Rob: And first up, to use its full proper name, it is marvel superhero.
Guido: Superheroes.
Rob: Oh, marvel superheroes. Secret wars from December 1984. It's volume eight. Volume one, issue number eight, aka the expensive one. And it is titled invasion.
Guido: It is aka the only issue I'm missing from secret wars is that you were going to buy me for my birthday one year. Yes, exactly.
Rob: They're all cheap. And then the $200.01 or maybe it's even more these days.
Guido: So this issue is written by Jim Shooter penciled by Mike Zeck inked by John Beatty jack Abel, Mike Esposito colored by Christy Shield Lettered by Joe Rosen, edited by Tom DeFalco. You can always count on a comic when it's inked by three people that it was not being rushed to print. So, first appearance of the black suit in terms of its origin. So that's why we chose this. We skipped over the amazing spider man so that we could get the origin of the suit. To summarize, at the end of this event book, if you will. Uh, okay. We'll get into it in a moment.
Rob: Most of the action is, I think, enchantress getting drunk and being a really.
Guido: Great so aside from that fun part at the end, spiderman finds a gizmo, literally calls it a gizmo that lets him think and produce anything you want. Thor gets his costume back by doing this. And the black costume appears as a small black ball that takes over his body. So that is literally why we had this issue. And, uh, secret wars is a thing. It's funny because especially when there's something that creates so much anger in people or hate in people, or people are really like, that's bad. That's bad. I generally then will myself swing in the other direction and try to find and be like, oh, no, it's good. Calm down. Calm down. This is just awful. It really is just awful. There's just nothing good about the plotting, the pacing, uh, what's happening. It's so contrived. It's awful.
Joey: The secret wars itself is epic for, like, an event. It was fun, but man, this is a goofy issue. It is weird. It is so weird. And you've got enchantress this drunk. You've got spoiler ahead. Janet van Dyne, she's back from the dead. You got the lizard playing patty cake. Why?
Rob: Definitely one of the best lines. Enchantress innkeeper, fetch me another flagging of mead. Bye. No one attends. I shall have to conjure my own mead again. Or an innkeeper, right?
Joey: Or even when she encounters the Hulk, she's like, oh, no, Hulk, don't beat me up. Please don't do such kind of affect. It's just like doing but the way that it's written in hell. When Janet Van Dyne toward the end of the book is brought back to life, her kind of opening line is, oh my, I'm so sorry, I don't have any makeup on.
Guido: They really write her to just be an awful sexist trope.
Joey: It's really yeah, it's great that she's back, but at the same point, it's just like, this is again, uh, I hadn't read it in quite a while. And so I revisited the book, um, last week and I read through it and I I said, good lord, this is bad.
Rob: I had never read it really for so long. But it was one of those titles, of course, you hear Secret Wars and all that, all that. And then when I had read it a few years back, I was like, oh my gosh, am I missing something? Because I had built up and I'm like, this is really not that.
Joey: Go ahead, Keto.
Guido: No, I was going to transition to the art. So, Joey, say what you're going to say.
Joey: Oh, yeah. I mean, even Cap discovery, there's just so many things that happen in the book. Like, one of the things prior, uh, to this issue, doom has had a fight with Galactus. And so he's like, worn out. Doom is just sitting on a bed with his head with his hand on his head. And Cap comes in, he's just like, oh, I'm here to fight you. You're just chilling. Okay, I'm just going to go put you in a cell. And it's just, uh I don't know. There's a lot of question marks for content quality in this book that I just been reading. It Rob, I felt kind of the same way, going like, am I missing something here?
Guido: Yeah, well, so I think that extends to the art, that same thing. I mean, Mike Zeck is a great artist. He does Master of Kung Fu, and it's really a great example of Bronze Age marvel art of the early 80s. But here, I think this book is a good example of someone either phoning it in or more likely with three inkers credited. It was rushed and it was in such a rush that first of all, I think the inking probably destroys a lot of his pencils. And second of all, I think his pencils just he didn't have time. The backgrounds on these things, these panels are like just blobs of blue. There's no detail whatsoever, which Mike Zeck, of course, in Master of Kung Fu, is known for his detail and his line work. And so it's just there's something going on here and it destroys the takes away from the experience so much that it's not even pretty to look at.
Rob: Yeah. The Enchantress quote I read, she's just in a pink background behind her, and I'm just flipping through it here. And so many of the panels, I mean, there's at least one or two per page that have no detail in the back. Solid color. And of course, it really works when spiderman first gets on the suit, and you have this big blast of pink behind him with the black suit that really, I think, pops, and it's such a great image. But, yeah, a lot of the rest of it is not quite finished.
Joey: Even small details, um, when the team finally discovers, uh, molecule man, and they're like, oh, don't lift him. You're ripping open his sores. I mean, even on the bandages, there should have been at least a little plot of blood kind of coming through those bandages that they had to rush onto him from wolverine's attack early on. Um, that's a style choice. That would have been something if I was the artist, I would have added in. But it's just like those type of little details were completely missing. One of the first panels in the book, you see thor flying to us.
Rob: HM.
Joey: Great. It's dynamic, and I kind of expected that throughout the book, but then it kind of falters. But even when peter gets the actual black costume on that panel, even the proportions of the way that the arms are totally weird, and I think honestly, gita, I'm with you. I think that the way it was inked, it probably lost a whole lot of mike Zech's pencils in the actual detail that went into because that's a dynamic moment. I mean, the COVID is iconic at this point, mhm quite so many times. But now you have the panel that you get to really show off the costume, and he kind of looks like this muffin man in a black costume.
Guido: And he's got rob Leefield legs and feet. Like, they're completely out of proportion. He's got these tiny, dainty little pointed feet. I think this panel inspired rob's entire career.
Rob: And in the very next panel, he's doing a pratt fall because the ground is shaking.
Guido: Oh, yeah.
Rob: And let's talk about the reveal of this big costume. So as you said, keto, there's kind of this deess mahina device that just creates this here. I'm guessing today, like, we would not have such a big new introduction done at the very end of this book in two panels, not really explained. There's really no background behind it. What do you both think of that, and how would that be done today?
Joey: I think, honestly, the way that it was just kind of rushed at the end, they used a device as the plot device to make this thing work.
Guido: In a very meta way that used a device as a device.
Joey: Um, we're left with I mean, thank goodness the black costume gets explored and we get venom and all of the iterations of that later on, but it kind of is a nothing moment. I would have found it more interesting if they were on the planet. Peter picks up a rock and the rock turns out to be the Symptom. M. And then it becomes something rather than this device, which don't quote me on this, I may be wrong. I think that they end up retconning later on that the alien itself got into the facility and ends up attaching itself, uh, and it just happened to be right place, right time to Peter.
Rob: Yeah, that makes a lot more sense.
Guido: I mean, there are still dramatic costume changes. Rob, in terms of your question today, the most ah, a recent one I can think of is like three, four years ago when Miss Marvel's costume changed and she got slightly electric powers and it was like on the COVID and it was a big deal. And everyone speculates on the issue. So they still do this once in a while in terms of just I.
Rob: Would imagine they're just not shoehorning it in in the last two pages of a comic and and just kind of rushing it aside.
Guido: It is definitely that's unique to Secret Wars.
Rob: Yeah. What we were talked about in in that there was all this stuff and I know, Guido, you were also saying to me there were some toy tie ins rights. So there was a lot of things.
Guido: That were yeah, that was what was drove the whole Secret Wars. That's the only reason it existed. Yeah.
Joey: What was it, uh, toy biz at that point had the rights to, uh no, it's Mattel. Oh, it was Mattel.
Guido: Okay. M all right.
Joey: That's right. Yeah.
Guido: All right.
Rob: Sick. The, uh, sonic transducer go for a Rocky Horror reference. Sonic machines on us. Zap us into our next section exploring Multiversity.
Joey: I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question what if?
Rob: And today we are asking the, again strangely worded question, what if the alien costume had possessed Spider Man? And this is but what if? Vol two, issue number four from October 1989.
Guido: So this is written by Danny Fingeroth penciled by Mark Bagley, inked by Keith Williams, colored by Tom Vincent, lettered by Ken Lopez edited by Craig Anderson. At this point, Danny is comic writer and editor extraordinaire. He's been editing Spidey for most of the after this he starts more writing and writes most of Dark Hawk in the bagley. Starts his career at Marvel, actually through the Tryout book, and then does some work on the new universe trading cards. And then actually this book after this book, he actually starts working on Amazing Spider Man and co creates carnage. So very interesting to think about that connection. And a quick summary of Earth 1089 before we dive in. So the alteration here is, of course, that instead of getting to read to discover that the black suit is a Symbiote and deal with it, peter is delayed and ends up bonding to the Symbiote and not being able to be separated. And then to quickly summarize a dense issue which we'll piece together for those who have not read it, though, uh, recently, or can't remember it. He fights Hulk, who the symbiote ends up preferring. This leaves once he debnds Peter Parker. Peter Parker is aged up, dies of old age venomized Hulk, then fights Thor, decides to cure Bruce Banner. I think out of guilt for Peter dying. Ends up then bonding to Thor, going up against Blackbolt. The heroes are going to send him to another dimension, but before they can, Blackat comes along and kills him with the sonic transducer, a, uh, weapon that Peter designed that she got Kingpin to design in exchange for a life of servitude to Kingpin and for revenge for Peter dying. So that's a brief summary of this world. So Joey, where do you want to start? This is your favorite issue or our favorite issue? Start us somewhere.
Joey: Honestly, I think we get this great moment to see really how bad this Black costume can really be because it's leaching off of these characters at this point. Because we get Peter, who actually dies in this issue, um, it's draining all of his powers. But during that time, it's using all of this energy from its host and building itself up to become something that might be unstoppable and to explore. It could be, um, with the right host. It could be indomitable, it could be the foe that nobody could beat because it has all the characteristics of all of these different superpowered characters that could wipe out a whole entire universe if possible. Um, and so we get that kind of exploration with this character jumping from Peter the Hulk, and then later on to Thor and then Godlike power. Oh wow, that could be scary.
Rob: Yeah, it makes actually a lot more sense than Eddie Brock. And I'd imagine at some point it would say, oh, the Symbiote is driven by the anger of Eddie and that kind of thing. But Eddie has no powers, right? He's almost a downgrade from Peter who has these powers, but it makes so much sense. Oh, you're going to do the Hulk, but the Hulk's powers then can't be contained. So then Thor is like the perfect one because he's got all the power of the Hulk, but is also channeling that better. So it actually kind of makes a lot more sense than what is in the 6116 universe.
Joey: Mhm, yeah, and I mean the channeling of those powers, like just as you said, going to Eddie, that narrative, I think eventually, um, that's kind of why we ended up getting Carnage, because Eddie was just kind of like a non plus character, um, with a revenge streak. That's really what he is. You break it down, that's the character, but then you get to Carnage. Carnage has totally different motivation and it's fueled by insanity and that serial killer aspect of the character. So now we've got a whole nother level of darkness behind the court host at this point, that kind of expounds into somebody who's even more devious. But again, you couple it with somebody that has superpowers that the symbiote is just leaching off of. Oh, wow. I mean, there's so much exploration that you could do there. And I think that's kind of where the narrative for this book kind of goes, is really kind of exploring the what if aspect of it. Where does this character draw its power? Why is it doing the things that it's doing? And then how powerful can it really actually get without Reed Richards coming in or Black Cat coming in with her gun?
Rob: And I'm sure there'd be a million Venom fans out there that would disagree with me. But what you're even saying, Joey, is making me think this is why the Venom movie doesn't and maybe the character in general didn't really resonate with me, is because Eddie is this kind of non plus character. Carnage is so much more fun because he is this serial killer. But Eddie and even in the movie depiction, he's just like another guy and he's a little angry or is an alcoholic or whatnot. But when you put the symbiote on another character, even onto Peter, and you have a little bit more of the give and take there and do I want to do this or do I not? It seems more dramatically interesting to me.
Joey: Oh, absolutely. And you get that cost factor looking at Spiderman. What does this bond and everything that he has to go through cost him? It's costing his relationship with Black Cat. But then there's this great moment, kind of like in the middle of the story, he goes and sees Aunt May and he doesn't have the wherewithal well, he really wants to say, hey, it's me. But he can't. And he just wants to give her at least a little bit of something because he may never see her again.
Rob: Because he looks like an 80 year old man at this point.
Guido: Well, he is. He doesn't just look at he is.
Joey: An 80 year old man and he has that beautiful moment with her. But then I think in some ways, in my mind's eye, he kind of knew what was coming. He knew that he would go and eventually just pass away, um, and just had to get that out of his system and just to let her know that things would eventually be okay. Mary. Um, Jane is there? And like, who was that? And it's just this great kind of beautiful moment in this very kind of like Kooky story of the Black costume because everything else was happening, but it took a moment to take a breath and say, there are actually real life consequences to being a superhero. Uh, that happened right in the middle of this narrative.
Guido: And that moment to take a breath, I think is a good way to describe it. Because one thing I think about this is like the really good what ifs is it's super dense, but dense in such a way that I almost think this could have been a four issue miniseries. Easy. Uh, even without adding plot, they could have just expanded what's here, because there is so much here. So I think that beat and that's really one of the only beats you get, I guess you get Peter's funeral as maybe another sort of moment to pause. But the rest of it, there's just so much going on that it feels like it could easily have been expanded upon.
Rob: What I think could have been expanded upon is actually, uh, the pivot point early on. Because sometimes I think in these what ifs we get this really strong pivot point here, I think that's the weakest part of the issue is just, uh, the Fantastic Four just aren't there. And maybe if you had more issues, you could go, oh, okay, something else happened to Peter to delay him. It's not just, oh, that Reed's not home. Maybe something could have happened to Peter. But I understand you only had so many pages to do that, so that feels like a little quick to me, and I would have loved to have seen that expanded there.
Joey: Yeah. And that's kind of going back to both your points, I think that really, it could have been four issues. We get the moment it bonds, we get the moment it jumps, we get the cost of all of the consequence of all of this with Peter's death, and then we see it bond, and then the summation of the story at the end with everything kind of like coming to a head where eventually they kill the symbiote. So there's a lot that could have been explored just in this issue.
Rob: Mhm. Yeah, that one scene that you mentioned. I don't know why my brain went here, but I was thinking like, oh, gosh, when old Peter shows up at Aunt May's house, could it be like a back spin on, like, the Back to the Future thing where she finds him attractive? And she's like, well, there's this handsome old man that's showing up in my house. Little inverse of, uh, Back to the Future.
Guido: Luckily, it didn't go in that direction.
Rob: If they had four issues, we would have had to explore that right.
Joey: I wouldn't say that the audiences wouldn't been ready for it because they were ready back to the Future.
Guido: I think one of the things that's m the most neat to me about this issue is realizing that this issue is months after Venom's introduced. Months. And, uh, so this is truly the beginning of what we now call Venomized characters. I really tried to dig in, and I actually don't think anyone but Peter and Eddie had had the symbiote, uh, to this point. So this kicks off and we'll talk more about it in our next segment. But this really kicks off this idea. Like you're saying, Joey, what happens if the symbiote bonds with other people? And here we get to see the Symbiote bond with Hulk and then Thor. But even the character designs that they do, which aren't super complex, I actually would have liked a little more complexity. Like, when he's Hulk, he's just very thick and broad. And then when he's Thor, Thor is the more fun one because when he's Thor, he has, like, black hair and wearing the red cape. But it's just cool to think that there was no other symbiote at this point. There was no one but the Venom symbiote. There was no character that the Venom symbiote bonded with other than Spider Man and Venom. Um, so this is really kicking off this idea of what if he bonds? Or what if there's a symbiote that looks or acts differently? Which, of course, that's what's I think neat about knowing that Mark Bagley co creates carnage. Because you just have to wonder, like, maybe this idea was then this issue, I think more than many, perhaps even most issues, definitely inspired so much of the storytelling after it. I have no doubt.
Joey: Absolutely. And for Bagley to kind of go on and be one of the preeminent, uh, Spider Man artists, there's just so much that was just eventually. And I think that this was the kind of, um, the place where everything became the inciting factor for the symbiote, essentially, and I think you're absolutely right, is that we really kind of got to see in a what if? How could we go back and really expound on what's happening in this issue? Where could this go? What can we do to explore this narrative with this character that could be something really otherworldly and really dangerous for the Marvel heroes at this point?
Rob: It was interesting. You said you thought the symbiote felt bad, but in your summary, but I don't think that's what the case is here. I kind of read it as that the Symbiote is really just sucks all of the energy and power out of Bruce, and has Bruce well, there's that.
Guido: Point where he says and Thor questions like, was it telling the truth? Was it curing Banner of his curse? But I guess he could just be sort of framing it that way, uh, in an evil villain sort of way.
Rob: Yeah. At the same time sucking. And I guess unlike Peter, peter ages because the power is very much in him. And I guess it's the contaminant within Bruce, right, that he's sucking out, as opposed to how Peter is empowered.
Joey: And I imagine that if, uh, Bruce is Hulked out, whatever all of that energy is, would if it's, like, leaching off of him, kind of suck him down to his normal Bruce Banner persona.
Rob: Yeah, we should speak a bit about the other kind of big character in here, which is the black cat who we mentioned. And she's really the other character that changes, or really other than Peter and I guess Bruce being cured, the other characters don't really have a change. But Black Cat has this whole kind of arc that's throughout this story. So what did you think about that arc?
Joey: Yeah, from the onset we get that she's head over heels and really in love with Spiderman, uh, Peter, and she's willing to do anything to protect him. Um, and a superpowered individual, uh, like her, she can go places that Mary Jane can't, essentially. Um, Gwen can't, and she can go into the battlefield, essentially, and really show that she's defending him. Uh, and we get that at the summation of the story. And it is a great kind of like, I'm willing to do whatever it takes kind of attitude for her that allows her to just kind of pop off the page, really, and bookend everything that's happening in this story.
Rob: Mhm, yeah, it takes this anti hero character, all the other heroes are like, okay, we can't kill this symbiote. We've got to put it in another dimension. And it can live out someone had to cap or someone says it can even live out its life there. But the Black Cat is like, no, I'm killing this goo. It killed my boyfriend.
Guido: Well, she even says, you people make me sick. You are also concerned with doing the right thing for the alien while this space vampire killed the man I loved. So, yeah, this was fun for me to read too, because, uh, as not a Spider Man fan, I was never someone who read much Black Cat until Jed McKay's run the last few years, which I think is extraordinary because what it did was it made me love a character that I had no opinion about beforehand. So being able to now read some early Black Cat, even though it's an alternate universe, was really fun for me because I want to read more of her. I like her.
Joey: Well, I think it's because also in this, she isn't just one note. Um, everybody else, dr. Strange kind of comes in, does magic leaves. There isn't that much exploration on the character side. It's really kind of her I'm not going to say, like, redemption arc, but it's just like a way for her to just kind of really flesh out her own feelings, at least on the page from the beginning of being just so in love, what she would do for love by reaching out to the kingpin and then finally putting the kibosh on this alien and just kind of.
Rob: Seeing, yeah, there's that great moment, too, at the very end, where the kingpin is like, do you want to ride back? At first she says no, and then she's like, uh, sure. So even that ambiguousness that ambivalence there is still in the character there.
Joey: Yeah, and it's interesting because in this story here's a character with trauma, thinking about Secret Wars Eight. Going back to that. If you think about it, there were a number of things that happened individually to certain characters that was centered around different types of trauma. And I was just like, that's interesting that this is kind of carrying through. And the symbiote, honestly, could be like the story narrative that this is just if we're thinking bigger picture, it's just like passing on trauma to each of these different people.
Rob: And I want to hear the black cat with, like, a heavy New York accent. I kept thinking of, like, Eddie Potts and Ghostbusters and Marissa Tome in my cousin Vinny Spiderman connection.
Guido: I was a big fan of the last ten years. The rumors that Eliza Dishku was in talks for a long time to play her, I think that has passed. But I was into that. And she's got I mean, it's not New York, but she's got that Boston accent, which I think would still add that street edge part of no one.
Rob: In the Spider Man universe. I guess maybe immersive to May a little bit, but nobody in the Spider Man films ever speaks like they're from New York.
Guido: Yeah. So before we move on to our last segment, do you want to go back to Earth 1089? Would you take a sequel series or an expanded, uh, version, uh, of this?
Joey: Absolutely. There's so much more to mine, especially from the hero aspect, which we will eventually see. But, uh, I think that if we went back to this story, there's just so much more there that we could really kind of delve into. Again, seeing what the bonding process is, how that starts to affect in Takeover Spiderman, what it's actually doing to him physically, then combining itself, uh, bonding itself to, uh, Hulk, Thor hell, I was halfway expecting it to bond with Dr. Strange. I think that that would have been very interesting.
Guido: Yeah, that would be interesting. How it would deal with magic.
Joey: Mhm. So much to explore there.
Guido: Yeah. And then I think because, as we've been saying, the Black cat is arguably the protagonist of the story, I think you could do a follow up series. Now, I don't know how different it would actually be from the six one six, but a follow up series of her dealing with this tragedy and now the trade she made to work for the Kingpin in order to get revenge for Peter. That could be an interesting story. Again, it doesn't feel so different from the Black cat stories we seem to get in general, but still could be an interesting place to go with this.
Joey: Agreed.
Rob: This story really resonated with me, too, because as Gito knows, we just got a new dog who's really bonded with me and is sucking my energy out. I get it.
Guido: We need a sonic weapon, uh, to well, or it's better to send him to another dimension, I'd say, than kill him.
Rob: Uh, speaking of going to another dimension for another world, let's head into our final segment. It's pondering possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted, diverted? Diverted and gita? What are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?
Guido: This is pretty straightforward because the first six one six Venomized Bruce Banner Hulk just happened a few years ago. And I figured, let's go there. There have been other alternate Hulks that have been Venomized. The red hulk was venomized. But this is the first time that the green Bruce Hulk in the 6116 bonded with the symbiote. So I thought, oh, that's where we should go.
Rob: Mhm. So our issue is, it's not Stole, it's not Tito's, it's absolute cardi god.
Guido: All right. Marvel really should have consulted you for their marketing campaign for this miniseries. They could have done like, those absolute ads from the 90s.
Rob: Too much absolute and you're going to cause some carnage. Okay, volume one, issue number three from November 2019. It's written by Donnie it's just part three, right?
Guido: Yes. Correct. It's an event book, so yes. Written by Donnie Kate's, penciled by Ryan Steigman, inked by J. P. Mayer, colored by Frank Martin, lettered by Clayton Cowells. And the editor is Devin Lewis. And again, we read it as the first Venomized Hulk. As we talked about, tons of characters became Venomized after 1989, but, uh, this is the first time the Hulk did. So I read this event. Joey, you probably read this event. Yeah, Rob had never read this event. So Rob, start us off.
Rob: There's carnages everywhere you look. There's symbiotes everywhere, which is always what I having been on the outside of reading this, but sometimes seeing, oh, there's so many. Norman Osborne's got a symbiote. And then there's so I guess the symbiote or carnage has put like a little piece of itself in all these people, which it's trying to extract. And I got that part, and then I thought, oh, is it trying to just become like its uber version of itself? But no, it's trying to wake like an elder god. Uh, lost me a little bit there in that part because it was like, how does this relate to the it's.
Guido: A very dense mythology. It's an example of a, uh, writer who had many years of a giant world and mythology built in his mind and then executed it slowly through multiple titles and multiple events. So this is an example of it.
Joey: Yeah. Kate had researched so much stuff to get to what would eventually become null in getting there. I've read in a couple of different instances that null or even these type of symbiotes, they've been around for millennia at this point.
Rob: The symbiote even says that in one of the issues in this, where it says, oh, no. Well, Peter is taking responsibility for bringing this back. And Venom, um, symbiote, says, no, we've been around since the Dark Cages. We were around with Beowulf and Grendel. And yeah. So yeah. To what you're saying, it's it's they've always been here in some form.
Guido: Yeah, yeah.
Joey: And I think that it's just this going back and especially like, the comic book conspiracy theories that there are instances that Kate's had pulled from Marvel lore, and that was what informed his storylines, um, to draw back that null has been kind of like, seething under the underbelly of everything that happens within the Spider Man universe. And it's very interesting delving into the whole plot around what would eventually become null, but we had to get through, uh, absolute carnage to just see kind of just how bad it can start to get.
Guido: Mhm in terms of Echoes of Earth 1089, I love the moment, which I obviously didn't remember because when I first read this event, I wasn't reading it with any of thought about Earth 1089. But I love the moment where Eddie says, uh, oh, man, did we infect you to Bruce? And Bruce is like, no. Surprisingly, no. The Hulk has never worn the symbiote. And he actually gets cut off when he says that line, too, which is fun. So I like that acknowledgment knowing Donnie, Kate's too, having done so much research, I feel like that could have been a little bit of a meta nod to the fact that he did wear the symbiote, just not in the six one six, I think.
Rob: So we always ask that question, did the alternate Earth, uh uh, have an impact on this one? And I think in this case, yeah, as soon as I read that line, it was like, oh, instantly. He probably had read that issue. And it's a little nod to that in the very fact that the Hulk then gets the symbiote in this issue. Oh, yeah. I can't see how that is not taken from the what if.
Joey: Oh, yeah. And especially when carnage, uh, is it in this issue? I went and read the following issue.
Rob: To kind of me too. Yeah, they all could start to one story, even though we're just talking about three.
Joey: Yeah. Penetrating into the brain of, uh, Bruce, and it's just like, he's really kind of finding out all the character motivations and oh, Bruce, you actually think you're crazy. And it really kind of goes fairly, fairly deep, no pun intended, but he's like, really kind of in there drawing all of this information out, and, uh, it just getting to kind of see what could happen with this, or actually what does happen, because it's 6116. Um, there's a lot going on because we've got Miles, who has been Carnagized, we have all these other characters, and then Bruce, uh, and Cap and the other heroes are trying to get the codex out of them. So there's a lot going on.
Rob: Mhm yeah, we get a lot of the back and forth between Eddie and the symbiote, and whether the symbiote still thinks Eddie is strong enough. And also the Symbiote is willing to kill Norman at one point, but Eddie is more concerned with protecting Scorpion, who's been paralyzed. So it kind of goes back. And I had not read, too, because when I was reading a lot of Venom, um, in the stuff like that, you didn't necessarily have the split personality kind of thing that they're really exploring here. But I think they do a really good job of making it clear through the text boxes and through coloring who is speaking at one time. And even though, as you're saying, Joey, there's a lot going on, it actually reads very easy to follow and read.
Joey: Oh, I think that absolutely, um, where, like, Secret Wars was very dense. There's a lot of text there to read mhm in this issue. There isn't a lot of dialogue. It's more action. And I think that it's a credit to Ryan Stegman and Donny Kate's partnering relationship, because I think that they work really well together. And the way that Stegman had plotted these panels, there's one rob, going back to your point, there's a great moment where, um, Venom and Eddie are having a conversation and the Symbiote wants to kill, but Eddie doesn't want to do that. And it says, I will choose somebody who will be stronger and not as weak as you, uh, if it presents itself. And there is this great moment where you see Eddie getting away, but the Venom costume is standing facing carnage at this point. I thought that that was so dynamic. And it's a great moment to just kind of see that we have two different personalities that have been just kind of coexisting together at this point.
Guido: Yeah. So it was fun to read in the context of Earth, uh, 1089. And I think we agree it probably inspired Kate's to a certain extent. But before we wrap up, let's talk a little bit about the black costume on screen, and if we think we'll see Spider Man and the black costume, or if the Symbiote will stay contained to the Venom verse. What do you think, Joey?
Joey: I think that we're absolutely on track. I think the MCU there's already been talk of Secret Wars is happening. We just don't know which one we're getting. Um, because there's the Secret Wars in 2016 and then the one from the 80s. I'm leaning towards the original Secret Wars, especially with there's, um, in Secret Wars Eight, when Reed is helping Iron Man, uh, later in the issues, he's repairing his costume. And then Iron Man says, are you surprised to see a black band under the armor? And Reed says no, I'm not surprised at all. Um, I just know that there's a man there. Great line. One of the best pieces writing in that issue. But is that not our new Captain America that we're getting? Uh, not new Captain America.
Guido: Um, that's war, um, machine.
Joey: War Machine. Yeah. So War Machine, which we're getting armor wars. Those are happening. Secret wars. Everything for me is kind of leaning in that direction because Galactus is coming. Um, and there's just so much setting up for this Secret Wars that I think that that's where we're headed.
Rob: Ah.
Joey: And so with that, it would be the impetus to give us I mean, we've seen Peter's origin story for Spiderman already over and over again. So I'm kind of ready for this new kind of like lifeblood, which would be the costume to kind of come in there and wreak some havoc, even though that in the most recent Spiderverse, um, with Tom Holland, we got all three Spider. So we know that there are other things happening. The black costume is existing somewhere in there in one of those, uh, added credit scenes. But, uh, we're on track for that to happen. And I'm super excited to kind of see where it's going to go.
Rob: I wonder if they'll do a reverse and have because we see in the post credit sequence, eddie leaves some of the black symbiote here. I wonder if we're going to see Peter get infected in our world on Earth and then bring that to Secret War. So it's kind of the reverse of what happens because of course, they're not going to do it's already been introduced. We talked about it kind of being just shoehorned into the original Secret Wars. But it's also so iconic, so linked to that story. Maybe he'll then go to the alien planet wearing that could make sense because it could protect him on that kind of other planet and incorporated it in that way.
Joey: Or going back to what you said, like earlier, maybe it's a nod, uh, to the cartoon. J. Jonah Jameson pilots, the heroes going to space. The alien attaches itself to the rocket or whatever. They're on spaceship. And that's how it ends up in that thing that recreate. I don't know. I'm creating narratives here.
Rob: I think it also does put Peter I think the Peter we've seen in the MCU is in a good place to get the symbiote now because his aunt, his only blood family is gone. His two friends don't know who he is. He is isolated in that way. So I don't think it would have made sense if that had not occurred in the last film. I think now we're ready at that character is feeling a little bit more desperate, a little bit more angry.
Guido: I just would like if this is the direction we go, and I know this makes for maybe less of an interesting story, but I'd prefer it not have consciousness because then I feel like we'll just be recapitulating Venom. So I'd rather I'm all for Tom Holland having this black symbiote costume. I think it would just, first of all, look cool. And there could be something with the fact that it is this living creature. But I'd rather not have the voice in his head. Like venom does. I don't think that would be very interesting to me.
Joey: When it first Bonds, it's either two, uh, hundred and 99 or 300. There are times where Peter's fighting, uh, sleep at this point. No, never mind. That was, uh, what it for. I take that all back.
Rob: All blends together, and it would be great to see maybe the Black Cat. I know they were going to do, like, a standalone movie at some point.
Guido: Yeah, and there has been no word on that from Sony.
Rob: Uh, now that MJ M doesn't know who Peter is, this could be a good way to introduce another female character there. And she's so tied into the creation of the black costume and all that.
Guido: All right.
Rob: Yeah.
Guido: Well, that is, that's a wrap. Thank you for listening to all six of us. That's the three of us and each of our personal symbiotes. I have been Guido.
Rob: I've been Rob. And special thanks to our special symbiote, Joey Vasquez.
Joey: I've been Joey.
Guido: So, Joey, how can listeners find you?
Joey: Uh, they can find me on Instagram at Joeyav. Um, I'm also on the Midtown comics, uh, Instagram page. You see, my weekly comes out on Thursday, my key of the week, uh, at Midtown Comics. And of course, you can always go to our website, midtowncomics.com, for any of your orders and preorders and get those discounts in. And also check out all three four of our locations, all in Manhattan, and then our one are outlet in Astoria.
Rob: When you said orders, I thought you said hoarders.
Joey: But either one works about, uh, comic collectors, right?
Guido: Yeah. You order to become a hoarder?
Rob: I live with one. So.
Guido: Uh, um, the reading list for this episode is in the show Notes, and you can follow us on all social media at dear Watchers.
Rob: Leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.
Guido: In the meantime, in the words of Uatu, keep pondering the possibilities.