Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

>> Rob: It's not a stretch to say that we are illuminating this thing called comics. Also, Invisible Woman reference. Welcome to Dear Watchers, an omniversal comic book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

>> Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories in the worlds that make up the omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on, this journey are me, Mr. Fantastic. That's it. I just get to be M. Thanister Fantastic.

>> Rob: And me. You know, you can't see me, but I'm sitting right next to you. It's me, Rob. I'm invisible.

>> Guido: How could you not come up with a reference for her in your intro? Just reinforcing the decades of misogyny Susan Storm Richard has had to deal with.

>> Rob: It's right there in plain sight. Unlike Su.

>> Guido: Oh, gosh.

>> Rob: And before we begin our trip through the multiverse today, what's happening in our little section of the universe?

>> Guido: Well, I don't think there's much happening in our section, but in the larger section of the universe, meaning the universe. The Avengers Doomsday cast was announced. The chairs since last we recorded. Yeah, I happened to be off from work that day, so I got to actually have it just on all day. It was tedious and a little exciting.

>> Rob: I love what someone said, on Blue sky, where they said, oh, everyone says that Marvel, the MCU is over. And yet you've all stared at your screen watching chairs for five hours.

>> Guido: I agree. Especially it was only a few episodes ago that I was starting the divorce proceedings for me in Marvel. But I'm excited. And I didn't want the Fox universe to come back, as we've discussed on this podcast. But if we're getting an Avengers vs X Men movie that they're calling Doomsday, I'm kind of excited for it, Niles.

>> Rob: I'm in a Marvel movie again.

>> Guido: So we are in a bit of a content upswing. We have the Fantastic Four right around the corner from when we're recording this, followed by Superman and so many other even non comic bookie things happening, like he man news trickling out of Cinemacon. So we'll see what what comes upon us.

>> Rob: And if you're joining us here for the first time, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today. Origins of the story, exploring multiversity, and pondering possibility. So thanks for coming along.

>> Guido: And remember, leave a five star review wherever you're listening and follow us on Blue Sky. You can on Instagram too, but go find us some Blue Sky. Now.

>> Rob: And with that, dear watchers, welcome to episode 157. And let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travels today's alternate universe. And today we have the foresight to fore ever ask the foremost question one of the Fantastic Four all had the same power.

>> Guido: It's not a very exciting question, I realize. I'm like, wait a second. I didn't edit the question, but I guess we're doing a literal what if?

>> Rob: a literal what if?

>> Guido: It's been a while and I guess we might as well use their question. Although there's some sub questions because this is omega fourme of four different universes we're covering today. These are Earth 9031, 9032, 9033. And can you guess the last one?

>> Rob: 9030.

>> Guido: For it's 9034. And those are the four Earths that each appear in this anthology what if issue. Each alternate Earth had never been seen before and has never been visited since. But before we get to our alternate Earths and our coverage, we have covered the Fantastic Four quite a bit. Starting with their origin back in episode number one, which was almost four years ago.

>> Rob: Oh, gosh.

>> Guido: Four is everywhere. That's it.

>> Rob: We were wearing masks. We were washing our hands.

>> Guido: Not while we were recording.

>> Rob: Not while we were recording. We were not wearing masks.

>> Guido: We have covered Doom and the FF countless times, but a few key episodes to go find we did. What if the Fantastic Four went to Oz back in number 22? What is submariner Married Invisible Girl with Lisa from comic book Couples counseling back in episode 24? What if the FF had different superpowers with Make Mind Amalgam Ethan? Back in 25, we did the FF as the Marvel Bullpen and a few others. So you go to deerwatchers.com, click episodes, and you can search the Fantastic Four and find all that good content.

>> Rob: Well, you. We've talked about them a bunch, so let's not dwell on this too much. But Guito, what is your background with the Fantastic?

>> Guido: It, has been a while, though. I don't think we've talked about them in a while. Not that our backgrounds change, but it has been a while since we've talked about them. My background with a Fantastic Four, they were always there as a Marvel reader. For the first few decades of my comic book reading life, they were sort of on the periphery. I would buy them sometimes, not all the time. Up until probably Heroes Reborn Onslaught era, I bought all the titles that were affected and then I kept buying at the Hero's Return reboots. And so I was a bit of a fan then, I guess. Obviously, big events like Reed dying, that was huge. I remember that quite well. And I've never been an ongoing every issue reader of the Fantastic for until Jonathan Hickman and through to today. So I still read the title and buy it every month. And I actually love Ryan Northru Run. That's happening right now. We also have consumed every FF content, which is not unusual for us, including the Roger Corman movie.

>> Rob: I haven't seen the. No, I haven't seen a lot of the movies. I have not seen the movie.

>> Guido: Oh, you haven't seen the Fox. I've seen the Fox movies, but we watched the Roger Corman movie, the Lost movie.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: I liked the Animated Series, though it's not quite to the, good execution that the other shows are. So I'd say I'm a moderate fan. I was expecting to be a big fan thanks to the mcu. I'm questioning that now. What about you?

>> Rob: Yeah, for me, it was actually mostly through the Animated Series, because I would watch that, all those shows, the Spider man show, the Iron man show, the Fantastic Four show. So I knew them through that. But like you, they were always around. But I was never actually actively buying them. When I was buying comics growing up, maybe if they had a villain on the COVID like the wizard who actually features in one of our issues today. I liked some of their villains because they were a little bit more extravagant, a little closer to some of the Spider man villains. So I would get that, but I never actively bought it. And it probably. And you're such a big soap opera fan. Guido. For me, it almost felt. Of all comics, you could say this of most comics, but the Fantastic Four especially felt more impenetrable than some of the other comics. Like there seemed like there was such backstory and some of the kind of soap opera like elements between all the characters. It felt a little hard to get into, especially as a kid.

>> Guido: Yeah, well, they're very character driven, which I think is true of the X Men 2, but you just have more characters in the X Men, so I think that's part of the difference. This is more of a small cast, so you get to focus in. I've really enjoyed everything I've read, even for the show. We've read some issues from the Bronze Age that'new and some of the Silver Age. I did go back and reread that, so I agree with you. They never hooked me But I've slowly become m a fan over the years. And let's see if we'fans of these retellings today.

>> Rob: Yeah, let's take that. Fateful spaceships ride through the cosmic rays. It's origin the story. Right now on this very show, you're gonna get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago. And first up today is mythos fantastic four number one from December 2007.

>> Guido: This is written by Paul Jenkins, art is by Paolo Rivera, letters are, by VCs Joe Caramaggna, and it's edited by Stepven Wacker. This is part of Marvel releasing six one shot issues between 2006 and 28 that were retelling origins. They did not alter or play with continuity. They were telling original stories though. They all had the same writer in Jenkins and the same painter in Rivera. They were all painted style, so that was what set them apart. They were really meant to be accessible points for people who had become fans of Marvel through some of the movies and such. And Jenkins had done a lot of Marvel and indie in the 90s, including the darkness for Top Cow and some DC. And Rivera is the son of a inker and artist who worked a lot at Marvel and did covers for many years after this, including a variant for the X Men versus Godzilla that's coming out this summer. So he's still working. Obviously this style was unique and very Alex Ross inspired. And these were meant to be like event books, I think, because they were painted. So we read this because we've covered their origin before. We've even covered a retelling of their origin before. And so I figured, all right, let's go find another retelling of the FF origin, but one that doesn't change anything. It's just telling a different story with it. So what did you think of this one in Mythos?

>> Rob: I enjoyed it. I think my question actually for you that came up when I was reading this is why do you think of all characters and maybe this is true of other characters and I don't know it. Why does their origin story have so many retellings?

>> Guido: It actually doesn't have that many. I think there's more for other characters. I think you can find a Batman or Superman, interest origin retelling or a Spider man origin retelling a lot more often than you can the ff. There's a few regular, canonical issues where they'll do like flashbacks and think about something or they'll add a little bit of texture to the four of them. And I think that's what this one does, which maybe answers your question, even though I think your question, is a little false. But in terms of why retail, I think because, like, this issue, for those who have not read this issue, it doesn't put them up against Mole man, which is, of course, how we know their origin really happened. It just stays with the manifestation of their powers and what that would be like. And in this telling of it, they're at a congressional hearing about the fact that they went on this space mission and got these four powers. So I think you can tell this story in all these different ways without altering it, because you have these, again, characters. You have these four people. What are they doing with this? How do they feel? There's a lot you can do with how they, interact and how they, react to the fact that they got these powers. So I think that's what he's doing.

>> Rob: You could almost also see it. Either this congressional hearing is happening right after they came back, or maybe it even came. Maybe it's even happening after the fight with Mole man, too.

>> Guido: I think you assume it does. So I think the only adjustment I actually did compare to make sure, like, all Jenkins does is he alters the timeline a little, because in this retelling, their powers start to manifest in the hospital when they get back, whereas in. In reality, they manifest and then they fight Mole man immediately. Like, that's how it plays out in the original issue. So there's just a slight shifting in the timeline. But I think you're right. The. The. Because the hearing is so much about, what do we have to fear from you now that you have these powers? That's what the government is asking them. I think it could have been after the first battle.

>> Rob: And that framing device of the government, I thought, worked really well here. And in fact, it reminded me of a kind of, MCU film filmic kind of framing device there, where we're kind of focusing on. We're seeing their origin story, we're seeing their powers evolve through a senator asking each of them questions. So we're kind of able to focus on individual characters in that way. I could really see them utilizing this in a movie. And even the overall tone kind of was reminiscent for me, a bit of the mcu.

>> Guido: I am very curious if this will be an inspiration. I agree with you reading this with the first Fantastic Four first steps coming out in mind. And we haven't watched the trailers, so this is no spoilers, but it did make me think a lot about the potential for them to mine this specific story. And Paul Jenkins telling. Cause there are those great character beats. You and I both laughed out loud when the congressperson thinks that sue and Johnny are husband and wife. Which is just. It's a cute almost meta reference because I think probably a lot of people have thought that over the years. But you also really just get to see a lot about who these four characters are. And one thing I loved, there's one page when they each are getting their powers. They're being bombarded with the very Kirby cosmic rays. And they're recounting what they were feeling. And each of them is feeling something that relates to their powers. So it's almost as if they manifested their powers. So you have sue saying that she's scared to remember she wanted to hide and make herself disappear. And you have Reed saying, I thought I'd lose the woman I love. I remember trying to reach her and he's stretching. And you see Ben saying, I was angry. I didn't wanna die like this. And you see Johnny saying, it was really hot. So I love that idea that who these characters are inform their powers. And that's going to tie in a lot to the alternate universe as we talk about today.

>> Rob: Because I think that's always been a bit of a question. And obviously it's comic book. How much can you read it to it? Something from the 60s too. But it's always a question of like, why do each of them have such different powers? So I like, for me, that page was really. Oh, the cosmic rays were kind of playing off of whatever was going through their mind at the time. And I also like the fact that here they have Ben and Johnny actually outside the ship when the cosmic rays are first coming in.

>> Guido: And s severe.

>> Rob: And there's our more severe one is the rock and one. And yeah, so I thought that was also a really good detail that they had there.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I don't think I have much else to share about this issue. I do recommend it. I think it does work as an access point.

>> Rob: Well, the painting too, I think also really elevates it because like you said, we had read already another retelling of their origin story, but it's done in the traditional comic book style. So does that add a lot more here? I think even though it's a story we already know, the painted style just does add so much. It makes it feel fresh and new.

>> Guido: Yeah, absolutely. And he's not just copying Alex Ross. I mean, obviously that's an inspiration, but he has a different style and so it's worth people finding.

>> Rob: Mmm. Well, our mutations are growing as we move into our second story, Multiversity.

>> Guido: I am your guide through these vast new realities.

>> Rob: Follow me and ponder the question.

>> Guido: What if?

>> Rob: And today we are asking the question, what if the Fantastic Four all had the same power. This is from what if Volume 2, issue 11, by the way. What if the Fantastic Four all were the Marvel bullpen was Volume 1, issue 11.

>> Guido: They did a lot of that with the what ifs actually like the humor issues are the same numbers. So I think they did. They must have been looking at volume one for inspiration.

>> Rob: Two far fantastic four. Yeah, well this one is from March 1990.

>> Guido: Yeah. And we have four sub questions that we'll get into. But all of these are scripted by Jim Valentino, of course, a Marvel legend. And there are different inorsh. Valentino also does the pencils. There are different inkeors on each story. Chris Ivy on the first, Hilarary Barta on the second, Steve Montano on the third, and Jeff Albrecht on the fourth. Letters are by Phil Felix, colors by Tom Vincent, edited by Craig Anderson. And I don't know if you notice the COVID has a very famous signature in the bottom left. Who helped Jim Valentino and that's Todd McFarlland.

>> Rob: ah, well. And they would go on to be working together as well.

>> Guido: Yes, yes, they would. Yeah. Valentino, of course, probably most famous for Guardians of the Galaxy and the Bronze Age Marvel. And then left Marvel to be part of Image and was the Shadow Line imprint over there. So let's go story by story and then talk about the whole here because there is a wraparound but it's pretty irrelevant. It's Uatu who is introducing the idea that Fantastic Four have been a large part of. What if he doesn't say that, but he goes through and says I've shown you worlds where this has happened and that has happened. And he lists off other issues and of course there's asterisks referring you to those other issues. And then he says, well, I want toa show you now something else. And he shows us these four worlds. They are re varying lengths. It's a standard length issue. So these are pretty short stories that are fit in here. It's not an extended anthology. The first is what if the Fantastic Four all had the same power as Human Torch?

>> Rob: And this is, ah, a doozy of a story. I'd say this is this one for one in terms of length, I feel like is the longest it is. And it has.

>> Guido: Has the most substance.

>> Rob: Yes, yes, it does. It does. Yes. Some of these are much. I have a lot more substance than others, and this one certainly does so.

>> Guido: Pretty much the way all these stories start. But in this one, they have the same origin in that they go up, they got bombarded by cosmic rays, they land. And in this one, of course, Johnny turns into the Human Torch and the rest of them all become human torches as well. In this one, they do form the Fantastic Four.

>> Rob: I don't know why it's not though. Like, the Flaming Four, they really, again, lost.

>> Guido: They didn't want the gay reference.

>> Rob: Yeah, Gu.

>> Guido: Fire there.

>> Rob: Fire for the Fiery Four. Yeah, that would have been. Okay.

>> Guido: Well, the fact that the four of them can become living fire is pretty fantastic.

>> Rob: Yes, I guess so.

>> Guido: I think it's fine. So in this, the first issue has happened, so they fight Mole Man. The second issue has happened, they fight the Skrull. And now we're in the third issue. And so the magician is the Miracle Man. The Miracle man, brings to life a fake version of the monster that the Fantastic Four fight. But now he's to life the human. To the human torches. The four of them are fighting, and they fight him in a derelict section of the city where there's empty buildings.

>> Rob: You kind of reminded me of those lines in all the Marvel movies, especially after the Zack Snyder Superman ban of.

>> Guido: Steel, where they're always like, oh, we're so glad the building's empty.

>> Rob: There's no one here to hurt. Let's just's fight.

>> Guido: Yes, but the reason that's so important in this issue is that they're really happy that these abandoned buildings are empty and they don't have to hold back against the monster. But we have this parallel plot where we meet a young girl who is in, She. Her name is Angel Angelica. She's in the building nursing a baby while her mother is working at a diner. It's a little strange. So her mother is, I don't know, really down and out. And clearly, I guess they're living in an abandoned building. So maybe we're supposed to believe they're. They're homeless. And so, yeah, the mother is like.

>> Rob: Working multiple jobs and like. And she'we. See her in the diner and the fact that everyone is basically mean to her at the diner as well. Yeah, if it was very much like, I think a thing that you. I think this was a bit ahead of its time in that way, because I think you see this all the time. On a TV show now where we're going to be going through the A story and then suddenly the TV show stops halfway through and we're gonna like focus on a minor character for several minutes. It very much remind to be of that.

>> Guido: Yeah. Although it's very brief. Like what Rob is describing is like a matter of panels.

>> Rob: Y.

>> Guido: Because it's a brief story. And so the four of them are again excited that they don't have to hold back. They decide that they'll set the buildings on fire to help defeat the monster and also save taxpayers money by demolishing these abandoned buildings.

>> Rob: They let them burn because they're going to go after Miracle Man. And one of them even says, like, should we put this out now? And he says, no, no, no. Our main focus should be getting the bad guy.

>> Guido: And so Uatu in his narration says that because they lacked training with their how to use their Human Torch powers, they were careless and the burning the one building down led to all these buildings burning down. And of course then we find out that the young girl and the baby are trapped inside. The mother gets the firen to try to save the girl. They go.

>> Rob: There's a whole line too about like the fireman who was like the fire. This is the real hero.

>> Guido: An act of true heroism repeated on a daily basis in every reality by men of his calling. So yes. And so meanwhile, the cops tell the Fantastic Four, who have red uniforms in this world that this is happening. And they go back over to the building, they try to use their Human Torch powers to remove the flame, but doesn't matter. Too little, too late. The girl is dead. The mother is.

>> Rob: But the baby is dead. There's. The girl is still alive.

>> Guido: The girl is alive, Bab.

>> Rob: The baby is dead.

>> Guido: And so we then get a one panel or a page, half a page splash of how they all deal with this. And essentially the Fantastic Four, they stop being a team together. And what happens to Susan Storm? This is my.

>> Rob: Sue becomes a nun.

>> Guido: Sue becomes a nun. Reid just throws himself into his inventions. Johnny is becoming a world class race car driver. And meanwhile, Ben Grimm comes out as the human torture to the world, takes on the mantle of Human Torch and becomes one of the founding avengers. So.

>> Rob: And like Captain America and Namor actually never like, Right.

>> Guido: Because Johnny is an important part of that story. So. Yeah. So what'd you think of this opening story? It'oic end.

>> Rob: I mean, I definitely didn t. Did.

>> Guido: You think she was gonna die?

>> Rob: Oh, no. I mean, I definitely kind of thought like that the baby would be hurt or something. Or. Or we're gonna see that the baby got, like, all the smoke and that they're gonna say, oh, But it wounds up living. But for a comic from, like, 1990, it was pretty shocking that, yes, this baby just ends up dying in the end. And they don't really show anything. But the even a little bit that they show, they kind of almost hints at that. It is like, Like, that was like a charred baby.

>> Guido: I thought she was gonna die, like, even off panel.

>> Rob: But yeah, you kind of see it on panel as much as they will show.

>> Guido: Yeah, I agree. I love. I think my favorite part of this story is actually that last page because it's interesting. Having the four of them be human torches actually doesn't alter the course of the story. And even obviously Valentino doesn't intend it to because he makes clear the first two issues happen. The first few battles happen, but it's really in the end, after they accidentally kill this child, that's the interesting story. Like, you have a whole other world now where I think Ben Grimm is the most interesting. While I'm intrigued by Sue Storm becoming a nun, I think Ben Grimm, because he's not the thing also. So he's human and, like, in appearance, which would totally alter his character as we know it. So it makes sense that maybe he'd be more willing to be the leader of this team, this very public team. So I think that's just so interesting. Like, that twist at the end is interesting. It's not earned. The story is short, though, so in its defense, this story alone could have been the whole issue.

>> Rob: But it's interesting they that Valentino put this one first because it does have this dramatic.

>> Guido: I agree.

>> Rob: Impact. I almost thought, like, oh, we're gonna ease us in with another story and then maybe hit us with this in, like, spot two or three.

>> Guido: It's also the longest. Happier.

>> Rob: Yeah. So it. It kind of throws off the equilibrium of the book a bit because it is. Does seem twice as long. Maybe it's not even. But it seems longer.

>> Guido: I think it might.

>> Rob: And it does have this super heaviness to kind of kick off a book that never hits that kind of heaviness again. I mean, I think few books do where there's a dead baby in itah. Marvel Fantastic Four bucks.

>> Guido: So, moving on to the second story. And, the titles aren't analogous, which also bothers me. What if the Fantastic Four all had the stretching power of Mr. Fantastic? Is the second story so little different Question Here, same idea, of course, though. So in this one, they all start to stretch and you get some similar characterization. Although I'll say that sue feels really ugly in this because she can stretch, which I found weird, but so you've Ben feeling like a monster because he can stretch. Johnny having a lot of fun with it. Sue sort of joins Ben in that. And what that means is it turns out sue and Ben actually go get married. So this story is super short. They don't end up being a team. I guess the usefulness of four people who can stretch as a hero team is questionable.

>> Rob: Well, there's actually what this one felt like a palate cleanser after Dead Baby, because want only is it literally like two pages long, but there's even some funny lines and maybe you can find them, Guido. Where they are actually commenting on the kind of silliness of Reed's powers in some way, where they actually kind of talk about like, oh, like, who would want all these powers? Like these, these stretching powers. Like, so I thought that was kind of interesting that they're almost having this meta thing about like, okay, invisible super strong flames.

>> Guido: Those are all stuff we can do with all that.

>> Rob: But, oh, you can stretch really far. okay.

>> Guido: It's just like a three page story here. Four page stories. So it's quite simple. And so because again, the powers are useless, you have sue, who, like I said, feels ugly, so she and Ben, I guess, fall in love and they.

>> Rob: Vow to never use their powers again. Basically live a normal life.

>> Guido: Reed is so upset at losing sue that he just dedicates himself to his laboratory. And Johnny is the one of them who becomes public with the powers and becomes an entertainer that is known as Mr. Fantastic. I don't quite know what that means, I guess. I don't know. Would it be interesting if an actor could stretch their arms?

>> Rob: Well, I guess, like, yeah, I guess it's like he would be the celebrity.

>> Guido: Superhero or is a magician or something.

>> Rob: Don't. I'm almost thinking it reminded me a bit of like the alternate universes of Spider man becoming, which we've covered, of Spider man becoming a celebrity wrestler basically, rather than a superhero.

>> Guido: Yeah, so that's it for that story. Very straightforward, simple. And then we move on to the third in our series, which is what if the Fantastic Four had all become monsters like the Thing? Which again is another variation on the question.

>> Rob: Because as you see when you get into this one, it is not that they all become the Thing.

>> Guido: No, they don't all become like Rocky Brick things. So in this one, Ben turns into Thing. But we have. And I'm not great with the Marvel Monsters and what their names are, but basically the other characters all turn into Marvel Monsters we know. So I don't know who Reed is. He's some But he's like sort of Gorilla Monster.

>> Rob: Purple Gorilla Monster. Yeah.

>> Guido: So he and Ben fight and while they're fighting and Johnny I think has become a little more like Ben. Like he's a little. He'st.

>> Rob: But he's like, like almost like a clayface Ben. It looks like he'a little melting.

>> Guido: But then for some totally inexplicable reason, sue becomes Man Thing.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: And I don. I don't know. I guess I don't know Man Thing well enough to know if this is some reference to Man Thing. and how Man Thing can take shape, I have no idea. And it's really ridiculous too because not only can she not speak his Man Thing, but they also think that they look in her eyes and see no sign of intelligence. So.

>> Rob: And that part is definitely not true of the real Man Thing. Right?

>> Guido: Like, no, but it's true, Sue. So they canceleed. So they dedicate themselves to helping her as Man Thing to figure out what they. What she needs.

>> Rob: But they go off to like Monster.

>> Guido: Islands and then they decide that they're gonna. So they. To help her, they're gonna go to Monster island, which I don't know, kind of like.

>> Rob: Again, like you, I don't really know the monster lore. It kind of reminded me of like Skull island and Kong.

>> Guido: It is, it is exactly that. It is a real existing place. So this one is, I don't know, this one's a little weird, because it doesn't. It's not as fleshed out. It doesn't make as much sense.

>> Rob: Well, and also there's a few other things that we don't get too much into it, but like Reed also seems to be losing his intelligence a bit as this character and he's letting his emotions also take him over. So that is also part of his transformation. And I think so much of for like Johnny especially actually in the previous two stories and in the core Fantastic Four story, so much of Johnny's story is always that he's still like very good looking and that his powers actually can actually just impress people and girls even more. And now he is this monster. And in fact, I thought like, in fact, like the Thing, maybe we're just used to how the Thing looks, but the Thing doesn't look like as monstrous, actually, as the other ones. Like Johnny's version of the Thing actually looks a lot less attractive than actually Ben version of the Thing.

>> Guido: Yes, that is true. There is a grotesqueness that they draw in here. So let's move on to the final story of the issue, which, again, different question. What if the Fantastic Four shared the powers of the Invisible Woman? And so in this story, we have that Nick Fury has gone and this all happens. This all happens before the story even begins. But in the narration, we learn that Nick Fury went to the crash site, discovered that the four of them could turn invisible, and immediately recruited them to join S sh I E. And so, in fact, the public doesn't know about their powers. So the four of them are able to be become invisible, which of course is useful as a spy organization. And so they are joining S.H.I.E.L.D. e. And what we get to see in here is SHIELD's first battle in this world with Dr. Doom. M who Reed does know. He does know Victor. He does refer to that here. And so re with the other three members of the Fantastic Four in invisible hiding, this group of, I guess H I E L D agents, not Fantastic Four, they go to Latveria, to confront Doom and try to stop him. And of course, Doom detects the others who are in hiding, and they have a battle. He traps some of them, they go back and forth, they give him a concussive blow and capture him with the invisible force. And then I don't really understand the end. It almost seems like they're going with the, like, sort of diplomatic weirdness. Like, Nick Fury is, like, talking about how he's been fighting Dr. Doom and now he's on UN international soil, so he doesn't have diplomatic immunity anymore. So they arrest him. And so you got those special license.

>> Rob: Plates, but you're mine now, Doom.

>> Guido: Then the, Four Fantastic Four members that we know just resume being H I e L D agents. And that's the story. It's a strange one. It feels underdeveloped. The other ones felt developed, but short. This one feels underdeveloped because there's not. I guess they're just invisible. There's not a lot going on here.

>> Rob: Yeah, it felt like Jim realized o we have to do a SS story. I, mean an Invisible Woman power story. I should say. And this what we got. Because this one, it really doesn't even have much to do with their invisibility powers. While the read While the fantastic, Mr. Fantastic story is very short. I can totally see. Oh, you're Stretching your body, your face stretches. You think, oh, I'm af. I'm a freak now, or something like that. Like, I can see how that plays into a story. But I wish they had leaned into more with the invisibility of like. Oh, like a very Twilight Zone kind of thing of one of them becomes invisible, but can't turn back from being invisible or something like that.

>> Guido: Yeah, I think he just, either he wanted to do this, or it's all he could think of in the moment. I have no idea. But he just uses the invisibility to say, well, what if the four of them, became agents, but they weren't.

>> Rob: But it would even work better there if they were true spies. But, like, Ben's in charge of, like, training the new recruits, and Johnny's in charge of, like, fixing the cars.

>> Guido: Even the fact that they could become invisible doesn't really matter because Reed sneaks the three of them to Latveria. but then they reveal themselves.

>> Rob: Yes, it would muchrelevant they were actually CI agents that are able to actually be listening in on the enemies because they're invisible.

>> Guido: Yeah. So that's where I think this one is quite underdeveloped.

>> Rob: And also, I don't know, maybe you know better than me, Gido. They can also become intangible. Is that added for this story or is that something that sue can also do? So she's not just invisible, but in fact, like, when Doom M is like, firing his rays at Johnny, Johnny's actually able to become intangible and they're able to go through him. I never thought of sue doing that, but maybe people can let us know on Blue sky if that's actually, like, a power.

>> Guido: She. I think she can be intangible in that way, but I don't know if she can, like, walk through walls. M. And there is the other part of this. I mean, sue can start using the force field, but there's the part where Ben is starting to use it, like, by concentrating to deliver a killing blow of pure invisible force. So it does feel a little bit like maybe he was trying to sort of suggest that they are developing their.

>> Rob: Powers differently or maybe each of them has a variation. Like one can become intangible. One has, like, this super blast that they can do.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah. So, all right, so that's the issue overall. One quick note on the issue before we talk about it. Overall is Jim Valentino. Thanks. At the end, the author of a letter. So back in what if volume one, issue number 21, there was a column in the letters column called how about and it's a bunch of people wrote in what ifs that they would like to see. And some of them are really silly and some of them are totally serious. And this was Roger Schoolcraft from West Virginia back in the days when companies weren't worried about being sued over, story ideas.

>> Rob: Roger. Roger Schoolcraft from Fallens, West West Virginia.

>> Guido: And Roger wrote in what if Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch had joined the X Men? What if the original Human Torch had never become the Vision? And what if the Fantastic Four all acquired the same power? So that inspired Valentino to write this issue. I'll say in that column someone else wrote what if the Beatles had become the Fantastic?

>> Rob: How could they have not done that?

>> Guido: But I mean, probably licensing. We know that the Beatles actually licensed their own. Who would'been who?

>> Rob: He was trying to think which one.

>> Guido: I don't even know the Beatles. E don't care. Sue is not Yoko. That's all.

>> Rob: Well, George was called the quiet one, so I guess he'd be the Invisible man, right? I don't know. And Ringo would have to be the Thing.

>> Guido: No idea. Anyway, so back to the issue that we read. I think. Do you think, what do you think it says overall about the fact that. About how important what the characters's powers are? Because none of these stories exactly work. So do you need these four characters to have four different powers? Could they have been any powers or do their powers matter? You know, could sue have, instead of being invisible, could sue have had telepathy and Reed have been able to teleport? Like, how much does the power matter to the character in the ff? I think is the question that I think the she makes me think of.

>> Rob: The one character whose powers I think is super in line with him is, is Ben, because so much of his character is shaped by the fact that he is not. He cannot just go around and walk on the streets, like anyone else. So I think for him, his power or his deformity in that power is very key to the character. But could you have had any of the other three have, a different kind of power as long as they looked quote unquote normal? I think you totally could.

>> Guido: Well, I think reading this with the mythos and what we were saying, it makes me think, and this would be giving Jack and Stan a lot of credit that maybe isn't warranted in this case. I do wonder if there was an intentionality about like Johnny's go going to be the young hothead I think he him M. Flameah. sue is a woman and so feels invisible in society. Like, let her be invisible. Read. I don't know, this one is maybe the leap, but what we discovered in the second story of this issue, like Reed's power is kind of useless. So what does it mean to have the quote unquote, smartest person in the world have a useless power? Like, what's that gonna do to his sense of who he is?

>> Rob: I also see, which we actually will get into in our final issue, is that Reed is always stretching himself, though. He's always pushing himself to the limit. Maybe too much. Right. So I can kind of see that asp of his character.

>> Guido: Interesting.

>> Rob: I agree with you that other than maybe Johnny, I don't know if Reed and Sue were Nestla Saraly I Sue.

>> Guido: I do wonder, just because even though they didn't do a good job of dealing with gender in society, like, there are a lot of stories in the early days of her being a woman and what that means. So I could see that possibilityly being a part of it. But yeah, so I think that's what makes this issue interesting. Is it that. That question that it exposes, I think, more than the stories itself. Do you want to go back to any of these four Earths? None of them have been revisited.

>> Rob: U. well, the only one really to go back to, I guess, is the first. The first one you said? Yeah, yeah.

>> Guido: I think the first one could have been one of those what ifs that ended up with a sequel down the line where they returned to it, because you could return to it and see how Ben Grimm's Avengers or plan panning out and then have him, you know, reconnect with Reed and Johnny and, Sister Sue, Sister Su. So, yeah, I think that one had some potential. The other certainly, I think, don't have any potential to return to.

>> Rob: Agreed. Well, let us wrap up today by pondering some possibilities. Will the future you describe be avertederttederted? Guido, what are we talking about for pondering possibilities?

>> Guido: Well, this is all a Trojan Horse episode. I just wanted to get you to read more Jonathan Hickman. Anything I can do, as our listeners know, to get you to read Jonathan Hickman, I'll do it. And this was an example I had looked at. So we've talked about the forthcoming movie a lot. So I didn't want to use the third segment to just talk about the forthcoming film and looking at what we were reading in the first two segments. I wanted to look at a reboot for the team. Oddly, the series doesn't have a ton of number ones, at least compared to other series, has a probably half a dozen, which is a good number. But. And I looked at maybe even the most recent run, Ryan North's ongoing, that's happening right now, which I really enjoy. But the first issue is a lot of setup for one character. It doesn't really give you the team feel. And then I saw in a list of soft reboots, the start of Hickman's story in Fantastic Four. And I think that not only is that what we're about to see in the mcu, starting with Fantastic Four, first steps, no doubt, and all the way through to Secret wars, no doubt. We've already heard the language of it, of incursions and everything. I think it's extraordinary. I love Jonathan Hickman. I love what he does with the team and the characters. I love everything that he does. But I think this is really essential reading. This is the kind of first issue, or at least the first really important issue to, his seven year story that he's telling. Secret wars ends in 2016, and this is the start of it. So it's really an extraordinary project. I dream of rereading it before Secret wars comes out. And I do have two years, so I probably will. So let's dig into it because it's your first time reading it.

>> Rob: You know, I actually had read this once before.

>> Guido: No.

>> Rob: Yes, yes, I did, because you had me already read this, I think, once.

>> Guido: I don't think that's true, but I remember. But why don't you tell everyone what it is?

>> Rob: Okay. Well, it is Fantastic for number 570. This is from October 2009. And the story is called Solve Everything.

>> Guido: It's written by Jonathan Hickman, it's penciled and inked by Dale Eaglesham, colored by Paul Mounts, lettered by Russ Wooton, edited by Lauren Sankovich and Tom Brevrt. So I don't think he read it. I made you read Secret Wars. No, because I remember Secret wars happened seven years later.

>> Rob: So I remember the wizard having all his clones.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah. But secret, that stays in the story. I All the elements in here stay in the story. I don't imagine that you had this issue because it'd be a strange random issue to read, but what did you think of this setup? Do you want to read more?

>> Rob: Yeah, it'it's. Interesting. I think the one thing that works well about the Fantastic Four is that all four of them, you can have a story that's pursuing how all of them have. And I think it makes sense to have this new story really focusing on Reed and this idea of, like I was just saying, of him pushing himself and always, maybe there's always like, I dont know, what do you think, Geido? Or maybe this is explored some point in the run. Is it all maybe stemming also from him having this guilt over kind of being the person that put them out in the shuttle to begin with?

>> Guido: Oh, yah. That's, I think, the core part of who he is. Yes, for sure. Yeah. I think what Hickman does really well, always is get at who a character is in a really sophisticated and nuanced way, I think. And he does that with read. Like you can see here, the fact that you were thinking of that, I think is because Hickman is writing it there. And Dale Elesam, I mean, the artist who always works with Hickman, I think, does a fantastic job of getting those character beats. Even here you see Reed, like his five o'clock shadows growing in. Like there's more of an edge developing in him as he's searching for this. How can he solve everything if he wants to make the world better? He's come up with these 100 ideas that will change the world, but that's not good enough. He has to come up with 100. Number one, 101. How does he solve everything? And this introduces us to, for the first time, the Council of Reeds. And we meet in the very end. All these different reads.

>> Rob: But the first Reeds we meet tied so well into our what if. Because the first reads we meet are an invisible Reed and a Human Torch read.

>> Guido: Yeah. Which I love that they say. And a human readed, without powers. And I love that he says, we wanted to bring you familiar readsuse we thought that would make it easier for you. And I love that detail in there. So. Yeah. Do you want to read more?

>> Rob: Yes. I think it.

>> Guido: The omnibus is right here in my hand and it's the first of two FF by Hickman omnibuses. And then you'll read the Avengers and then Secret Wars.

>> Rob: Well, I know we've talked a lot about the upcoming movie, but do you think that the first steps is going to take a lot of DNA from this story?

>> Guido: Yeah, I almost think it has to. And I hate setting myself up for disappointment, which I know, like every time.

>> Rob: You say Storm isn toa be in.

>> Guido: A new movie, the last three years with my Marvel experience has been setting myself up for disappointment. But rereading this, it feels like the perfect way to get themselves out of the multiversal saga. I think what we all know as a, business, both as a business and as a storytelling machine on both levels, they want to get out of this saga, I think, and they need to get to Secret wars to do it. And for Secret wars and Doomsday before Secret wars to make the most money that any movie has ever made in the history of the world, they need to build toward it. They can't just get there. And there are not that many releases between now and then. So I do think this movie is gonna have to do a lot. It can't be a stinger in this movie that puts us to Secret Wars. This movie has to build the story, tell us what we need to know is going to happen in Doomsday. If Doomsday is going to be an Avengers vs X Men secret wars battleworld fight thing. This movie has to get us there. And a really easy way to get us there. We already know or have reason to believe that this Fantastic Four is on a different universe in this MCU movie. So the Council of Reeds is perfect. The idea that Reed is trying to solve everything is perfect because he will be the one who breaks open the multiverse for the incursions to be dealt with and then get us to the climax and the finale. Plus, you can then pull in, if you wanted John Krasinski's read, you could pull in all these other reads. You could have some fun with it, as they do on panel in this issue, but have Pedro Pascal be the anchor.

>> Rob: M. Yeah.

>> Guido: So yes, I think this is what we're gonna see. So I'm glad we read it.

>> Rob: And hopefully you're not disappointed.

>> Guido: I'll have the. It's part of why I want to read the comics again. Because I'm like, at least you'll always. I'll have the comics. Exactly. I let the movies control too much of my emotions, I think. And I need to remind myself, hey, the comics are there and they are really, really good. So even if the movies aren't, that's okay. The comics are. Comics are always there for maybe I'll.

>> Rob: Read it or maybe I'll sue it or den it.

>> Guido: Oh, gosh. Well, on that note, that is a wrap. Deer Watchers, thank you for listening. I have been Mr. Fantastic.

>> Rob: And I have been invisible. Not so invisible, Rob.

>> Guido: The reading list is in the show notes. Please do find us on online deerwatchers.com or social media at Deer Watchers and.

>> Rob: Leave us a five star review wherever you listen we'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.

>> Guido: In the words Ofuatu, keep pondering the possibilities.