Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Welcome to Dear Watchers in Omniversal comic book podcast, where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up the omniverse of fictional reality we all love. And your young watchers on this journey are me, quito and running away.

Rob.

There you go. So I can just be young? Geeto, then you can.

Sure, if you say so. Young gito. What is new in our little corner of the multiverse?

This is exciting. We're in the midst of our Marvel excitement with another episode here connected to what we think is coming up in the MCU with Quantum Mania. Because the week this episode airs, the movie is coming out. And that's really exciting. Following up, actually on last week, I do want to add that since we recorded last week's episode, you and I talked about some other predictions. And I just want to mention we talked about whether or not Ravana is going to show up in Quantum Mania, because, of course, she's a key part of what we read last week on the episode and Kang's story. And we both think there is a strong likelihood. And then we talked a little bit about Mantis and the whole celestial Madonna story, which is very odd and probably won't tie in. But it is interesting that Guardians is coming after Quantum Mania. I doubt there's going to be a connection there, but it still is interesting to consider.

Yeah. The Celestial Madonna. I think she's she's touring in 2023. I hope she pulled bogue.

We got our tickets. It's true.

Oh, my gosh. What if they had Madonna as the celestial Madonna in the MCU? That's why her movie got canceled, is because she's spending all her time filming the MCU.

I would die. I don't know. That would be on par with the moment that Rogue and Gambit show up on screen. Like, I will die. Any, uh, of those things happen. I'm dying. All right.

Yeah.

So we also have a guest spot on our friend Bodr's awesome show, the ShortBox comic book talk show. You can find it wherever you're listening to us. You might remember Botter when he joined us before Black Panther Two or just after Black Panther Two to talk namor. But this time we joined him on, I think, their 381st episode, talking about Kang. So watch for that episode all about Kang. Uh, again, from a different series and storyline. And as always, we're just looking for your help to grow more in 2023. So please leave a review, please spread the word mhm.

And please consider joining us on Coffee as a patron, where we are posting some exclusives, as mentioned last week. And if you're joining us for the first time, we have three sections of our travels today. Origins of the story. What inspired this other reality? Exploring multiversity. We dive deeper into our alternate universe and pondering possibilities. We examine the impact and what's followed or coming in the future. And with that, dear Watchers, welcome to episode 84 and let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with today's alternate universe. And today we are asking the question, what if the Runaways became the young adventures?

And uh, this is Earth 2912 and it is last first scene and last scene in 2008. And we'll give more background on where this question comes from in our exploring multiversity segment. But first, a little background because it's our first time talking about these two iconic teams.

Mhm, so not to be confused with the amazing rock band from the love Them too, but in the comics, the Runaways had five volumes starting in 2003 and most recently ending in 2021. It's an early example of a series that was canceled prematurely and sold so well in bookshops in collected form, particularly with a Ya audience, that they revived it many times over. And since the most recent run ended, though, those characters have not been seen again in comics, sadly, maybe they will reemerge. And where they did reemerge was on television. So there was a marvel's runaways. That's the official title TV show on Hulu. It was developed from the or created by the codevelopers of Gossip Girl. It ran for three seasons or 33 episodes from 2017 to 2019. This was under the Jeff Loeb run of Marvel television. And some of the adult cast was James Marsters who was Spike on Buffy. Julian McMahon, who has a marvel connection. He's Dr. Doom in the original Fantastic Four movies.

Not the original, but well, yeah, well.

That'S the Roger Cormann movie. The official ones, yes. Um, and one of the cast members who also has a loss of genre credits, including being a voice in the Last of US video game, was Annie Worshink, who unfortunately very recently tragically passed away from cancer just a couple of weeks ago.

So that is the runaways. But for The Young Avengers, they debuted in 2005 to their first volume and then a few miniseries and event crossovers happened. The Children's Crusade mini event series, a second volume that I can't wait to one day talk about, and then they disbanded. The characters showed up in West Coast Avengers and are now somewhat dispersed into either major events like Empire or sometimes a miniseries, but sadly lacking. There is a hole there waiting to be filled. But some behind the scenes origins that are really cool on The Young Avengers are that because Alan Heinberg was writing and producing The OC, which had a ton of comics references. I was a big fan of the show. They did a wizard magazine interview with him and CB sibulski and Joe Kasada ended up meeting with him based on that about doing a new book to come out of Avengers disassembled. And they just gave him the name Young Avengers as a title and let him completely build the premise. New characters or old ones totally up to him. So I can't wait to get into that origin in just a moment.

Gito, is this is very weird, but the co creator of the Runaways TV show, Stephanie Savage, was an executive producer on The OC.

I'm aware it's not we're those of us who are fans of The OC. And Gossip Girl know that I've never seen The OC.

Or Gossip Girl. So another thing in my lack in my catalog. But yes, we'll see the many connections, I guess, between these characters.

Of course, Sex and the City.

Sex in the City, of course.

Awesome. Great credits.

But mhm yeah. Well, that kind of brings me to talking about our background with these two teams. So, Gito, what is your background with the Runaways and the Young Avengers?

Both are comics that I read as they came out. So I am, um, a bigger fan of one than the other. And that will be revealed shortly. So I did runaways was such it was a big deal in comics when it came out. And Brian Cave on super established. Amazing creator. So the fact that he was doing this made it really unique, especially at that time in Marvel's history. Then very quickly, celebrities were talking about it. Joss Whedon was a big public fan. Controversial Joss Whedon. But at the time, someone who I really loved a lot would talk a lot about his love of Runaways. So I read it straight through. There was a little lull, uh, I'd say at the start of Rainbow Rows series where I didn't read it monthly, but I always follow the team. We watched the first two seasons and sadly never went back for the third season. And I'd like to do that one day. Young Avengers, I read also as it was coming out from the beginning with Little Dips in after the first volume got canceled. They did lots of crossovers, and sometimes I would miss some of them. But as a Scarlet Witch fan, I read The Children's Crusade. And as a Kieran Gillen fan, I read the entire second volume always as it came out. So I have followed these two teams closely, and I know a lot about both. How about you?

Well, I have not read them until this episode. So, uh, I was not familiar at all with the Runaways until we watched the TV show. I had not even, I think, heard of them. So that was really my biggest exposure to them was those first two seasons. The Young Avengers have not read until this. But I think just through Queer Comics Twitter, I knew a lot more about them because of the two characters on that team. And I think in general, kind of MCU speculation, which we'll talk about more about later, how they kind of play in and I guess their connection to pre hosting characters. I knew a little bit more about them without ever having actually read them.

Talk about misogyny in the queer community because there's queerness in the Runaways. But it's women.

That's true. I know that's true. Because how much stuff and we'll get more into it and how much fan, uh, art and stuff that you see about, um, Billy and Teddy. But I feel like, yeah, that doesn't probably really exist as much with the Runaways.

Or you just don't see it.

Or I don't see it. That's also true. So, yeah. Let us, uh, jump into our first section, origins of the Story. Right now on this very show.

You're going to get the answer to all your questions.

Our amazing story begins a few years ago. So first up, we are discussing Runaways volume one, issues one through six, and Runaways volume two, issues one through six by Marvel Comics. Marvel Comics. Uh, that is entitled Pride and Joy from July to November 2003. And the second series is entitled True Believers from April to September 2005.

So all of these, remarkably for such a long run, have the same artist and writer in. Adrian Alfana, of course, also known for Miss Marvel and Brian K. Vaughan. Inks on this run are by DaVita David Newbold. I think that A was added, Invertedly and Craig Young colors by Brian Rieber and Christina Strain and Udon letters by Paul Tutrone Kirsteliopoulos and Randy Gentile and edited by CV. Sibulski. So we read these two six issue arcs because the first six issue arc is, of course, the origin of the Runaways. And the second six issue arc at the start of volume two brings in the Victor Mancha storyline, which becomes important for our alternate universe visit today. So this being your first exposure to the comics Runaways, what did you think?

Yeah, I liked the volume two a lot more than volume one, although I didn't dislike volume one. I think volume two maybe because it got away from the central kind of origin and the plot with the parents. I thought it really had room to grow. But I, uh, think the most remarkable thing about it is just the way that the characters speak. I think especially in volume two, they really do feel like they are speaking like young people. And I mean, even in volume one, there are some questionable things they say that haven't aged as well. But even that aspect has. Oh, it does feel like characters that are speaking this way, and maybe they even shouldn't be. But they are 16 year olds.

Well, you know what? It does, and I agree completely, brian cave on gets the voice of these different characters. And they also differ. They're not just like all speaking the same way. They have different ways of speaking. But I noticed one thing it does in the first volume, which we spoke about on our Buffy verse episode a few episodes ago, which is the way that Joss Whedon and the writers of Buffy created Buffy Speak, where it really shifted language by its interpretation. And what it did uniquely for TV, was incorporate references to culture that existed. This does the same thing. There's this scene that I took note of where they are talking, where Alex Wilder mentions that, uh, Karolina's bracelet is like Kryptonite. And then Chase tells them, you've been watching too many WB shows, so they exist in the real world, which is, I think, what makes it work so well. Even if some of it feels dated at this point, or perhaps even felt dated as it came out in 2003, it works because they feel very real, which is cool for a series like this.

It's not surprising that you said to me that Joss was a, ah, big fan, because I do think you're right. There's lots of similarities to Buffy here, and just that everyone speaks in a similar way, and yet everyone has a very distinct personality with that. And you get a character like Chase, who is almost the Xander. I mean, they're very different personalities, but in the fact that he has no powers and he's kind of almost like our every man in the story, you have a lesbian witch in both of them. There's a little things like that that it's like, oh, there are these kind of similarities. And even like the hidden society underneath suburbia.

Well, in the monster that your parents are right. So in the same way in Buffy, teachers become monsters and all of that. The subtext is rapidly becoming text like, metaphor becoming real. In this case, that's true too. The parents are the villains. And what adolescent doesn't feel an antagonistic relationship to their parents? And so to turn that into true villainy, to have their parents be the pride and be this evil supervillain group is very cool concept. Yeah, it wasn't done more times.

Agreed. Yeah, and I want to talk about that for a bit, because there are a couple of things there that I thought were interesting. One is that while this is in the six one six, it almost feels like an alternate Earth because we're introduced to the supervillain team that we've never heard about before. But controls are a great deal of crime. So it almost feels like, oh, we're almost shown this alternate reality in that way. And then the other thing I wanted to point out was that the pride here, the parents are so much nastier than they were on the Hulu TV show, where maybe it's because, oh, it's James Marsters and it's people that we like, or, uh, it was on Hulu is a little maybe a more family friendly audience. But here, right away, the first time we see Chase's father, actually, the character Chase Marsters plays on the show, he's punching his son in the face. And they, uh, make no qualms about not even killing each other's children, but even killing their own children. And I was almost taken aback by just quite how evil they were portrayed in this.

Yeah, I agree. And we'll talk about the TV show more in our third segment today. But maybe on a TV show, you just generally need people to be more likable or you're right. The actor brings a charisma that on the page. The drawn father, uh, doesn't have a charisma, so you just end up hating him and he is more abusive. Yeah, I think that's what's cool about Brian Cayman's writing in this. So this, as you mentioned in the background, is one of those series that I'd say really kicked off the bookstore integration of collected Editions, where you started to see digest sized collected editions of Runaways because they were selling well to probably teens and tweens and young adult readers. So it's cool though, that it still has a darkness to it, that it still is a serious comic with stakes. Right. It's not filler. Not that young adult stuff is Filler, but I think often we dismiss things aimed at young people as Filler, and this is not that at all.

Mhm totally. Yeah. And we should talk a little bit about, before we move on, connecting a bit to last week where we talked a lot about Kang, but also our Victor Von Doom came up and he in some ways makes an appearance in volume two here.

Yeah, I thought you'd appreciate that since you're doing this deep dive, the way that Victor Mancha thought that he is the child of Victor Von Doom for a little bit, but then it turns out he's actually an Ultron.

Yeah. Which is really I liked how they set it up because earlier they even mentioned, oh, could Ultron be his father? And someone even says something along the lines of ultron is a robot, like he can't be like his father. And it turns out like this whole kind of fake out the whole time, you're thinking, could his father be doomed because his name is Victor. Right. It's like he's very obvious. So then, uh, the fact that we actually get that kind of reveal there, which is great. The, uh, other thing I really liked in volume two is the use of the, um, past characters, uh, these kind of almost forgotten, a little bit 90s superhero characters who were like the Wrecking Crew. No, they are Dark Hawk and Ricochet and all these other characters.

And Julie Power from the Power Pack.

A green goblin that I didn't even know existed. But it's fun because it has this almost metaness to it where it's like these were all characters that were teenagers or in their twenty s and don't want to be superheroes anymore, and are now almost in the support group for it. And they're being financed by Rick Jones in the end, who is like the, uh, ultra original alpha of teenage sidekicks in the MCU. So I like that kind of metadata to the whole thing.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I love this story. I love this brand. I am surprised it's not been resurrected since Rainbow Rows Run ended. But I'm sure we will see it again. And I loved Revisiting. It. But let's move on to our next origin of the story, mhm.

That is Young Avengers volume one, issues one through six. There's a pattern. It's one through six. That was the magic number.

Well, that's how they got them into collected editions that they sell in bookstores. So it's all part of, like, a structure. Sometimes it worked. I think in these cases it worked, but sometimes it's, I think, more known for, uh, decompressing stories. So you'd end up with stories that probably should have been three or four issues, but they stretch to six to fill a book that they could sell. And there's, like, two issues of Padding, so I think it's more known for that.

But anyway got you.

So what do we read here?

Yeah, uh, this is entitled Sidekicks, and it's from Ran from April to September 2005.

Yeah, same time as that second volume of Runaway. You can see there was a real push, uh, for this kind of tone at that time in Marvel. These are all, again, consistent writers and art, which is rare, uh, or was rare at the time. I think it's more common now. All written by Alan Heinberg. All art by Jim Chung. Inks are by John Dell, Mark Morales, Drew drossy, Dave, Mikey's and Jay Leistine. So you can see that they probably had some scheduling issues and needed to bring in lots of anchors to finish the issues. Especially the number six has, like, four inkers on it. Colors are by Justin Poncer. Letters are by Corey Petit, and this series is edited by Tom Brevort. We read this because this is the first appearance and origin of the Young Avengers, and this is your first exposure to the team, other than just knowing that they exist. So what did you think, mhm?

Yeah, it's a different experience than the Runaways, where you're introduced, as I said, almost what seems like an alternate reality of all these characters at once. They have very different powers that we haven't seen, like being able to control a velociraptor with your mind, that's something. So here, it doesn't seem as bold in that way, because we have all of the characters are purposefully some kind of different version of derivation. Derivation of a preexisting character. And then, of course, we have the original characters, like Iron Man and Captain America are part of this. Um, I liked a lot of the stuff. I feel like, around the periphery of kind of the main story. Like, I love the inclusion of, uh, Jessica Jones, especially, and kind of speaking about meta, the references to her jewel outfit and things like that.

And, uh, I love even there's an official handbook of the Marvel Universe page of jewel, which, of course, didn't exist, but that's, like, what they used to give the background on her, the person the other reporter is, like, showing it. Um, well, so I this is my favorite I love this series. I love, love, love Alan Heinberg's writing. And other than something we were talking about before recording, other than Jim Chung drawing 14 year old Cassie Lang's underwear and protruding nipples, which is completely inappropriate and unexcusable. Other than that, Jim Chung's art is amazing. And so I think this series is awesome. I love it. I love every place that these characters go. I think they're really fun characters with a really great voice. And I actually love the derivative nature of it because as you can see, it keeps being a mystery. So, of course, in this first arc, the mystery is primarily around Iron Lad, who is a king. So that's part of why we read this now in this sequence. But you have other mysteries. Like, at this point, you don't know a lot about Hulkling. You don't know anything about Wicken.

Um, he's not even wicken. Uh, I know that character. And I was thinking, well, this is probably that other character. But he's called as Guardian here. So I was like, I think that's probably going to turn out to be wicked. But yeah, even that, you're not quite sure.

So I like that a lot. I like these characters that Alan Heinberg created. They're all really interesting to me.

I think the character that stood out the best for me, who has the most personality, is Kate Bishop. I thought he is a lot of fun in this. And I think it almost goes back to what we were just saying, actually, with Chase and Xander, there's, uh, something that really appeals to me about the people in these worlds that don't have powers, that are with but with these superpowered people. Because everyone else has some kind of superpower. And then you just get her who she's pushy and opinionated and good with a sword and good with a bow. And it's just a really fun character. She kind of basically forces herself onto the team. Like they don't want her.

I mean, we're going to get into the MCU depiction, but, uh, Haley Steinfeld, I think, does her perfect because, yeah, on the page here, alan's writing her with a snarky, rich New York girl attitude. She's down to earth. She's not wrapped up in her privilege. But she also is like, nothing is going to stop me from what I want.

And even at the conclusion, one of the things she brings to the team is she's got this abandoned warehouse that is going to serve as their next superpower. No one else really knows how to get their stuff together really in this, except when she kind of steps in and it's like, oh, no, guys, this is what we're going to do. So I thought that was really enjoyable. And I almost wish we had gotten to see a little bit more of the personalities of some of the other characters. I think, like, uh, Billy and Teddy, you don't get fully too much of their personality or Cassie too, especially. I feel like feels like a bit of a cipher here. So I wish we kind of had gotten to be a little bit more, but it's very more so than the Runaways. It does feel like there's a lot of plot heavy stuff. And the man of our hour, who we've been talking about this week and next week too, is Kang. So whenever you add in time travel, you need to spend multiple pages just explaining what happens in the time consuming.

Um, in the way you said Runaways feels like an alternate universe. I think that's in part because he's constructed these characters newly and is giving them lots of backstory, and they're really well developed, but it's all new, and they stay pretty contained, as you said. Like in the second volume, he pulled in those other side characters, and they'll cross over often with the Marvel universe, of course, but they stay pretty contained. They're also in La. Which most of the Marvel Universe is in New York.

There's even jokes in that volume about if we were in New York, this would be solved right away. But there's no heroes in La.

Right? And so the young Avengers is very different because even though it, too, is a bunch of brand new characters being written with new voices and new backstories, they're all connected to legacy characters or connected to, obviously, the Avengers. So, as I mentioned in the background, Alan, Heinberg got the chance to write this avengers disassembled happened. Cassie's father is killed in that. So there are immediate links to what happened in Disassembled and what these characters are building from. And then, like you said, the Kang stuff. Once you're bringing Gang in, you are bringing in so much. So what do you think of the Iron Lad Kang story? First of all, did you know, or was it a twist for you? No, I specifically didn't tell you that it was coming so that it could be experienced as new for you.

No, it was a twist for me. And, uh, it feels like it's even a little difficult to summarize because then we get Iron Lab is young Kang, and then the Kang we kind of all know comes and needs to take him back, because if he doesn't become Kang, uh, then the king we know is going to exist. And then ultimately, what is kind of the interesting kind of philosophical question, I guess, of these, is that the Iron Lad then kills Kang with a sword, and he thinks, okay, I've defeated him. Great. But then the other young Avengers, um, even the Avengers, start to kind of all disappear. And basically, Iron Lad Kang needs to go, well, I actually have to become this evil person in order to basically save all these other people. So he's like, Avengers still exist. Yeah. I'm going to cause chaos and death and destruction. But in the meantime, right now, I need to save these people that now mean this to me, which is a very interesting kind of philosophical conversation. I think that you get a lot when you just have Kang as a character.

Yeah, I think it's fun. It's a fun twist. I have no idea why it's done. Um, but it does add a depth. It adds lots of stakes. Iron lads gone. At the end of this, it brings back the Vision imprint, actually, which is really important. Vision is also killed during disassembled. So you have lots of ingredients from disassembled or remnants of disassembled being picked up here. And then it does a good job then, I think, of integrating the legacy characters who are kind of against the young Avengers. Once Kang comes in, then they have to unify. But of course, in the end, the Avengers don't give them permission and don't want them to exist anymore.

They come across kind of like jerks, really. I think the traditional are real Avengers because they're basically we don't want you to be put yourselves in danger. But at the same time, they've done this their whole lives as well.

And it's matched to the same thing with the Brian Cave on thing. This is from the perspective of now. Runaways are a little younger. These people are a little bit older. But it's the same thing that when you are a teenager yeah. Steve Rogers is going to come off as the man. No matter how nice or moral or rational he is, he's going to come off as the man. Like he is the old guard. Quite literally the old guard. So is Tony Stark. So I think it works that the two of them come off as the old guard, as these overly conservative, protective beings, where the young Avengers are going to be like, no, we're going to do what we want because they're teenagers.

Yeah. Even in the runaways, I think when they've captured Victor and he's like, are you going to turn me into the police? And Chase actually says, like, we're not the man. We don't have to do that. We have that freedom. So they're even aware of them being kind of working outside of the system that the traditional superheroes are.

Yeah. So I love this series. I want to talk about it more, but let's talk about it in an alternate universe.

Yes. So saddle up your velociraptor and journey into exploring multiversity. Uh uh.

I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if?

And we are asking the question, what if the runaways became the young Avengers? This story kind of interesting. It's told across five parts. And that is from, uh, December 2008. What if one shot. So those what if one shots are what if house of M. What if. Fallen sun. What if New were Fantastic Four? Fabulous title there. What if Spiderman back in black? And what if secret wars? And this is Earth 20 912.

And all five parts are written by CB. Sibuski. All five parts are penciled by Patrick Spaciante, inks are by Victor Olazaba, colored by Christina Strain and John Roche, and lettered by Jeff Powell. So this alternate earth 2912 let's try to give a summary. It's going to be hard. Uh, let me say why. Because first, without getting into my analysis of it, it essentially unifies the origins of the runaways and the Young Avengers. Uh uh, well, I won't even editorialize. All right, so it starts. And the Young Avengers exist as a team at this point, and the Young Avengers are the runaways that we know, with the exception of Iron Lead. So all of the runaways have code names, different costumes, and are in this world. 2912. The young avengers. Turns out that Iron Lad is actually no longer the Kang from the future. The Kang from the future has been imprisoned by this Iron Lad, who is Victor Mancha. So Victor is being manipulated by Victor from the future victorious to form this team, I guess, so that he can kill this team and fulfill his destiny, which we see in the second volume of Runaways that there's this glimpse into the future that the future Gert has, right? Isn't it future Gert where Victor Mancha ah, kills the Avengers. And so this future victorious Victor Mancha is manipulating the current Victor Mancha into wearing Iron Lad Kang's armor to form the Young Avengers from the runways in order to keep this going. Kang shows up, though, causing, of course, a bit of chaos in the battle, and they end up being able to defeat the older victorious, the future Victor, with the help of the present Victor, who is now no longer feeling manipulated. And the Kangs go away.

Well, uh, the younger Kang is killed, and then the older King, I guess, disappears from reality, although they don't spend too much time talking about that. But yeah, no.

And then we just end with the Young Avengers continuing as a team, but of Nico Minoru and Karolina Dean and Molly whatever her name is, and Chase Stein and Gertie and old Lace. Those are our young avengers. So before we begin, I have to say something about the writer of this series. This is CB. Sibulski, currently the Editor in chief of Marvel, who granted under his tenure as Editor in Chief. Marvel Publishing, I think, has done incredible things. I think CB. Sibuski is a pretty reprehensible person who for a long time wrote under a Japanese pen name and has never fully addressed that to my satisfaction and somehow was still put as Editor in chief and somehow today still holds that position, even though he essentially performed Yellowface. So I find it hard to swallow to take in something by him without that fact tainting it. So I give that as a disclaimer. But what did you think of CB's story here?

Well, I think it's so interesting because it really is in my head. I'm getting all the stuff that we read a little mixed up because this one really is as you said, it is combining the two stories so much.

It'S basically in a convoluted way.

Yeah, it's taking the characters from the runaways, but plus the Victor Macha storyline. Well, a lot of the runaway storyline, I guess, from that volume too. But then also really the Kangi. Um um, see, I'm already getting.

The Kang Young Avengers story. It becomes the catalyst for the runaway. The rest of the young Avengers don't exist in this story. They might exist in On Earth 20 912, but they don't exist in this story.

I'm already getting it in my head because they both have son characters that are maybe someone else or one's young Kang. So I guess he's not really his son, but he's kind of a son. And then you have Victor, who's then the son of Ultron, but at first it seems like he's Dr. Doom. So it really all feels like it's one giant story. And this really does feel like it's half and half in a way that I don't think almost anything else we've ever covered feels like, oh, they really just mash these two things together. Exactly.

It is a bit of a mash up. That is true. Uh, not in a good Amalgam way either, but in an overly complex way. I don't think it works, honestly. First of all, I think.

It'S a.

Good idea on paper to take the origins of these two similar teams that came out at a similar time and fuse them. But it is just overly complex. It requires even having read all three of these stories in rapid succession. It is so hard to distinguish them in your head because it's in some ways too similar, and then it's just overly complicated. I think it fails the litmus test we have of what if questions that work. I think it doesn't work because the question lacks that point of divergence.

Yeah, there's no divergence really at all.

I guess the divergence is that the iron lad young Kang comes upon Victor Mancha, I guess instead of coming upon the young avengers yeah, well, and I.

Think Young Kang and Victor have pretty much the exact same story, which is that right now they're a good person, but they're destined to grow to be a great evil. So they both have pretty much the exact same story. And there's this question of, as I just said, like their father or a paternal figure there. So, uh, the fact that they're both in this story, that does get a little confusing. It almost feels like, oh, they should have just made it maybe one of those characters, because it's like, wow, this is quite the coincidence. That there's two people with such a similar backstory there.

Yeah, I agree. So I think it just doesn't work. Uh, I then think again, knowing that I'm biased, but I don't think the writing works. I think when he tries to be clever and adolescent, it comes off as a little cringeworthy.

I didn't quite get that at one.

Point, gertie talking about how she's PMSing and she's going to prove what a bitch she is. And it just feels like, oh, God. Brian k vaughan alan Heinberg Granted, these are, uh, not yet middle aged, but between quarter and middle age white men writing a whole bunch of adolescent characters. They can pull those voices off much better than I think CV can hear.

I didn't really have that thought. But it's definitely kind of what we were talking about a couple of weeks ago with Buffy, where you have to kind of write in Joss Whedon's style, for better or for worse. And it definitely feels that same way here, where he's definitely writing in the style of those two, uh, those two writers very much. So it definitely doesn't feel like but.

I don't think it's executed nearly as well. Yeah, it's also overwritten, honestly. I think there's not just the volume, not just the number of long text boxes or caption boxes, but even just the sentences. There's a way that it's a little clunky and it takes away from the flow. Even not reading this as five separate little subparts, but reading it essentially in one sitting. So it feels like one big, giant size. What if it still has like a very clunky pacing?

Well, I think maybe some of that is because of how it is separated and because they're also not all the same length. I think one of them felt like.

Literally the first one is longer.

Yeah. And one of them felt like three pages. All of a sudden, it was over in literally about three pages. And then other ones feel like, uh, almost like half of a comic or something. So that might be one of the reasons why it has such an odd pace to it.

Yeah. So I don't have much else to say about this earth.

I thought the Iron Land was going to be Alex Wilder, actually. Uh, right.

Because that's the other thing. This what if takes place in a weird moment because it takes place almost like at the start of volume two of Runaways. So all of volume one of Runaways has happened, including Alex getting killed. And so yeah, Alex could easily have.

Come back and like, the other, like Victor and like young Kang. He's like the duplicitous one who's kind of got both he's good and bad at the same time as opposed to the rest of the character. So I was thinking, oh, he's going to be like the leader, the Tony Stark. Right. But, uh, then I was surprised, actually, a little bit when it was when it was revealed that it was then Victor. And yeah, not necessarily in a good way, but surprised.

So do you want to go back to Earth 2000 and 912?

No, because it's basically the Runaways.

It is totally just the Runaways. I think actually the only thing that would interest me there was a Runaway as Young Avengers crossover series. It was during Civil War. A miniseries. But the only thing that would be even remotely interesting to me about Earth 20 912 would be finding the people we know as the young Avengers on Earth 20 912. Like what happened to them? Mhm, because we don't know that. This is just a runaway story. Plus iron lead. That's basically it.

Yeah, I would be interested to see how they do react. Uh, I uh, mean interact because the Runaways are like the more bargained version because they're on the run and they are children of supervillains in that way. And their powers are a little weirder, while the Avengers are the children of young Avengers, are children of the Avengers and they have this more privilege and one of them is a millionaire. So it would be kind of fun to see this kind of haves and have nots of young superhero teams interacting.

Well, you'll have to read the six one six version of that, which is going to be superior version anyway. So all right.

Okay. We're going to remove our charm bracelets, power up our LSD inspired light powers, and go into pondering possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted? So Gito, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?

Well, we are going to, like we did last week, focus on the on screen depictions. So we'll talk a little bit about Runaways, the series and if we think that that version of Runaways could show up again and what the future of the Runaways could be in the MCU or in publication. And then we're going to talk about Young Avengers because as our listeners know from last week, my final quantum mania prediction was that the Young Avengers will show up. And I want to talk more about that. So let's start with the Runaways. Let's just start with our reactions to the TV show because it does follow all of these stories. So it does work as a third segment piece. I think what's cool about rereading this and having not reread this since the show was on, the show adheres really closely. It does almost identically to the comic series. And that feels unusual. You know, Cloak and Dagger didn't do that. Daredevil didn't do that. And none of the Netflix shows, jessica Jones doesn't even do that perfectly well. And that's fine. I love those shows. But I was surprised rereading this, how closely the Hulu runaway showed totally to.

The source material episode, where they really kind of discover, uh, that their parent. I guess it's probably in the pilot of the TV show and then the issue in the comics where they discover their parents are some kind of villain and killed someone, but they don't quite know for sure yet. I mean, that is panel for panel, shot for shot. It feels like there, I mean, there's so much to the characters, but you.

End up in the old mansion under the Labrador pits. Uh, really, I just couldn't believe how much of it. And Karen Lena doesn't know she has powers. They're being inhibited and gertie and the science experiments her parents are doing. I mean, it's really remarkable to me how closely it adhered with very little alteration, uh, in the origin. The plot, of course, then deviates significantly. So I really liked the show a lot. I don't know, we just must have felt busy during the third season when it came out and we never watched it. But I really enjoyed the first two seasons of that show and look forward to watching the third.

Yeah, I enjoyed it. I think at the time, or even now, in my memory, it was like, oh, this could have been shorter. And even reading these runaways comics, I really enjoyed volume two a lot more than I enjoyed volume one, I think when it's kind of ditched the pride and their kind of connection and their origin and kind of just, okay, we're going to tell a new story with these characters. And that was the thing. I don't know if they did in the third season that we didn't watch, but even the second season felt like a very prolonged origin because we're still getting into the fact that one character is an alien and all those kind of things.

Yeah. So do you think we'd see the runaways? Uh, I don't think we'll see the hulu runaways, of course. No, I think at this point it's been so long, and I think they probably weren't popular enough that they'd bring those characters back even for an homage. But do you think that we will see a new version of the runaways on screen anytime soon?

I don't think any time soon, in part because we'll probably see the young avengers. They're only going to want so many youthful teams. And also, I think because the runaways do have these kind of weird powers that I don't think they translate as well to on screen.

They give uniqueness and diversity in that I think Chase having no powers and HM having the fists, and Gertie being able to talk to a velociraptor, and Nico being a sorceress, and Carolina having the light being an alien. So I think they're actually a more unique array of powers, but they are a little harder than to communicate, I'd say.

I think the tone of The She Hulk show would be a really good tone for them to strike on a TV or film. A little bit of that mitt, uh, commentary, like what the Runaways have with their code names and that they can never really decide on a code name or they're all kind of horrible and playing a little bit with comic tropes like what we saw with these semi forgotten 90s young heroes that come back. I think that would be really fun. And I think the she Hulk TV show struck that tone really well. So I would love for them to come back but not take themselves so seriously. Maybe as seriously as the Hulu show was trying to do.

Yeah, I think people have also speculated that some of the individual characters might get pulled out. I think that would be hard to do because these characters are really bound up in this because they were created for this and have primarily existed. But people often talk about also because she's in the Midnight Suns video game that Nico Minoru would be a good character to bring in, but it would be hard to bring any of them in without making them runaways.

And it is like Buffy in that way. Do you want to see a willow standalone show without Sander and Buffy there to be on, something to play off of? And this very much is about how they all interact as a group.

Yeah, I agree with that. So, Young Avengers, here's what we already know in the MCU, of course. So we met a, uh, young Billy. We met Kate Bishop, got lots of time with her on the Hawkeye series. We met Isaiah Bradley's grandson. Who is the patriot?

Eli.

Yeah. And I think is that it?

And Cassie. We've met Cassie Lange.

And we met Cassie Lange. So we have there four of the members of Young Avengers already on screen. So we do know it is, uh, an inevitability at this point.

And America joins them at some point as well. Right.

America is in a later, right? In the kieran. Gillen, jamie McKelvey, America and Kid Loki are in the team too.

We've met a, uh, child's Loki as well. Not that it's going to be that same character and other younger characters like Kamala Khan, who I know is going to have her own in a Marvel's movie, but there's other teenage characters that we've certainly met.

Yeah, I think also there's a later Captain Marvel that joins the more recent team, but it's a foregone conclusion that they will exist. I guess the question is how? And of course, the question is when. And last week I made the prediction that Quantum Mania will be it. And I'm standing by that because I think for two reasons to me. I think, one, they can't drag it out anymore. We have enough of the ingredients that I think it's going to be hard to keep dragging it out. Two, I think that there needs to be a little bit of a wow factor and a surprise at the start of this next phase. And Quantum Mania is our first opportunity for that. So, as I said, on the last episode, even if it's not in the core plot of the film. The Stinger, I think for sure will put this team in place. And then where we go from there, who knows whether it's then a TV show, whether there's going to be a young Avengers movie. Maybe they're going to be the costars of Captain America new world order. Who knows where we go from there? But I think the team is just ready and they're going to put it in place fast.

Yeah, I think you're right. And I'm thinking the other big teen well, now not quite a teen character in Peter Parker is now kind of moved on with his life. The next time we see that character, he's going to be working for the Daily Bugle, probably, or living a more adult life. So I think there is also now a gap for let's show the more youthful story. And there's a lot of fun stories to be had there. Yeah.

Ah, other than Miss Marvel, there hasn't been that. And as you said, Miss Marvel could join the young Avengers. She's in the champions in the comics a lot, but they could always combine that lore a little bit. I'd say there's no reason that they can't. And I think the ingredients of the young Avengers, that the only ingredients, I think that they need to make it feel like the young Avengers is this idea of paying tribute to the Avengers in your own way and that's it. Beyond that, I don't think they need anything else that makes it young Avengers. They don't necessarily need Kang to kick off the origin. But part of why I think Quantum mania could lay the groundwork is that we have Kang in that. So why not incorporate something now? I don't think we're going to have a young Kang Iron Lad, though maybe we will. I mean, he is the reason the young Avengers exist. So perhaps that's why I'm feeling so confident that Quantumania is going to be the kickoff of this. He could be the reason this team ends up existing. We already know, of course, that Cassie Lang appears like she's going to have powers in this movie. So why not pull in a few other people that everyone's not expecting?

Mhm. And I personally loved also, I loved Haley Steinfeld's portrayal of Kate Bishop. I think the Hawkeye TV show after WandaVision was probably my favorite MCU show. I just think it was just so fun and funny and really now reading these comics, I can see that tone that they have in there, that irreverent comedy that's mixed in with the action. And I think that's also the MCU tone as a whole. And I think I'd love to see that character in, um, a group. And maybe also being that Haley Steinfeld is probably a little older than some of the other actors, she would make like a great team leader.

That's what they agree and that's why some people were upset when they cast O'Shea Gomez as America Chavez, because she is young, 14 or 15. But that's kind of a fun thing. Put her and have Haley Stanfeld have Kate bishop be a bit more of the mentor. Have Cassie lang perhaps be a little bit younger. Have wicked be a bit of an older mentor. The young avengers, I think, can range anywhere in age from 13 to 23. I think you can have characters of different ages in that there's no reason they all need to be 17.

It's not like and they'll be playing the characters for ten years. So they need to start them young too.

Yes.

They're not going to be the young avengers for too long, then, once they turn 30.

Yes. So I hope that we see the young avengers. I also think it'd be really cool if Alan Heinberg came back to write a TV episode of the young avengers.

Yeah, I would definitely be down for that.

That's on my MCU wish list. Anything else as we ponder the possibilities of the runaways and the young avengers?

No, but I think you're right. I think we'll see them on screen sooner rather than later. Sooner than the x men?

Sadly, yes, that's true.

If they can only have one group of teens with powers, it's not going to be the X men. It's going to be the young avengers. Boom.

Um, all right, well, that's a wrap. We'll find out in just a few days if you're listening to this episode when it comes out, if we were right. Dear watchers, thank you for listening. I have been youngido, and I have been runaway.

Rob.

The reading list is in the show notes. You can follow us on all social media at dear watchers and leave a.

Review wherever you listen. We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.

In the meantime, in the words of Wattu, keep pondering the possibilities.