Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

>> Rob: Thunderbolts of lightning. Very, very frightening. Galileo optional. Welcome to Deer Watchers aniversal comlic podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

>> Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up the omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey are me, Guido. But when I take my mask off, I'm secretly the supervillain Rob.

>> Rob: And it s like thunder. It's like lightning. It's not very, very frightening. It's me, Rob, not Guido.

>> Guido: No, you're supposed to be me. I'll be you.

>> Rob: Guess that's true. But then I'm the hero.

>> Guido: I guess you're the only villain here.

>> Rob: I guess that's true. What could we be possibly talking about on this episode youo It's a mystery. But before we begin our little trip through the multiverse, what's new in our little section of the OFM the verse Nothing's new.

>> Guido: But a warning on we're going to get right into today's episode. It will have spoilers but not until our second segment. So we will be very cautious. We hope everyone will continue listening regardless if you've seen the new movie thunderboltsteris. But we will not spoil the movie until we get into our second segment and we'll give plenty of warning. We will spoil a 28 year old comic. So if you are concerned about that then you should stop listening and you should probably, I don't know, do some reading. It's been 28 years. You've had the chance.

>> Rob: We read we spoileds newer and older comics than that on this podcast though. And speaking of segments, if you're joining us for the first time, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today. Origins of the story, exploring multiversity and pondering possibilities.

>> Guido: So thanks for coming along and remember, don't be a villain. Leave us a five star review on social media and you can always find us at Deerw Watchers.

>> Rob: And with that, welcome to episode 159 and let's check out what's happening in the omniverse with our travels today's alternate universe. And if you can hear me over those big claps of thunder and lightning today we are answering the question what if the Thunderbolts actually became a team called Redacted?

>> Guido: Yes, we are pulling off the masks and revealing all. And we have never discussed these great folks. So I actually don't have any backstory to refer our listeners. 2 the Alternate Earth, however, that we're addressing today is the mcu, which is a little unusual. Normally we save the MCU Earth for our third segment, pondering possibilities. But today we are treating it as the alternate Earth. It's sometimes known as Earth 199999. And then it got renumbered as the 616, though controversially. Cause people think that's the comic universe. It can't be the on Scren universe. So we're just going to call it the MCU.

>> Rob: Why is it called 199999?

>> Guido: That was the number that they gave it in some of like those official designations.

>> Rob: It didn't start in 1999, like obviously.

>> Guido: well, that's also more nines than there are in 1999.

>> Rob: Yes, that is O. Is it? Oh my gosh. I didn't realize.

>> Guido: Okay, so it's not that. It does have that look though. But I have no idea. I guess they just put it as like sort of the end of the line Earth. I don't know why they had done that in some of their early cataloging. But then of course we know, controversially, Kamala Khan numbers it 616, so. And Mysterio does, but he's possibly lying. And anyway, that's a tangent. So our in depth coverage of the MCU has happened a number of times, but most prominently we covered Multiverse of Madness. We covered Deadpool vs Wolverine, we covered Kang the Conqueror, and we covered Loki. So if you go to deerwatchers.com comm you can always search our episode titles and find our back catalog because they're evergreen, they don't go out of style. Although some of that Kang Conqueror episode I'm gonna guess is wrong. We can't predict the future.

>> Rob: Well, we've never discussed this team on the podcast before, as you said, Guido. In fact, we've not even discussed many of the individual members of this team. No, no. But what is your background with the Thunderbolts?

>> Guido: So this is peak going every week to the comic store of my childhood for me. I mean, I'm 16 at this point, so I was reading a lot of Marvel books. And on top of that, the Thunderbolts came about in the wake of onslaught. An onslaught I, loved. I still love. I will defend it to its haters all the time. And so I read this and maybe one or two issues that followed it, and that was enough for me because I didn't care beyond that. So I read this in 1997 when it came out. I have it, but that was really the extent of it. I read some of the more recent reboots of Thunderbolts, in particular from, I'd say like the Bendis New Avengers era on when the thunderbolts heav liaison with Norman Osborne and when there's all these different iterations. So I've read those versions. I've never gone back and read the rest of this first volume title. So I am familiar. And, we'll talk about how big a fan I am or not later. So that's my history with it. Reading it in 97 and then on again, off again. What about you? Yeah, this is an unusual one for us, I think.

>> Rob: Yeah. Because I definitely remember picking these up in the comic book store, the local comic book store. When, at the time they came out, I wasnna say I thought I got them from Jambalaya in Allendale, New Jersey. But now I'm looking at the year and maybe that wouldn't work out. So maybe my memory is playing tricks on me.

>> Guido: Memory is very flaw.

>> Rob: I do remember getting these though, and getting maybe, I don't know, the first like six to ten issues. I kind of remember reading it and then especially at that time, not always being super diligent about getting the books every week and kind of dropping off. So I never finished reading this initial story, but I very much remember getting these. And I guess we're not going to quite reveal yet, but I was a big fan of a lot of the characters who are the thunderbolts in the original run. So that made me almost so much more excited to actually read it. But yeah, I feel like I should go back and finish it one day because it's just dangled there in my memory somewhere.

>> Guido: Well, it lives on in our three omnibus editions that we have of this first volume.

>> Rob: Well, speaking of memories, why don't we go back to our origins of the story right now on this very show, you'renna get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago and Bill Clinton is in the Oval Office. My Heart Will Go on is coming out of the radio and in your hand you are holding thunderbolts. Volume one, issue hash one from April 1997. And the first story is entitled Justice Like Lightning.

>> Guido: So this is created by, written by Kurt Busk and Mark Bagley. M. Kurt does the writing, Bagley does the pencils. It's inked by Vince Russell, colored by Joe Ross, lettered by comicraft and edited by Bob Harris. So Kurt, of course is at this point a legend. His legendary Marvel work is kind of just starting around 97 caus. Of course, it's the Marvels. The book that he does with Alex Ross, which is a, huge groundbreaking, only happened a few years prior, starting in 94. And then he creates this team. And Mark Bagley, probably best known for Spider man art and definitely, I'd say his art defines this era of Marvel books for sure. So a really great team. Why don't you give our listeners a quick summary in case it's been 28 years since they read this book.

>> Rob: Well, after the Avengers in the Fantastic Four are killed in their battle with Onslaught, New York City is down. Heroes until the Thunderbolts appear on the scene. The Captain America, like Citizen V meteorite, who can fly and shoot beams. Atlas who can grow to huge sizes. Techno, who has. He's the gadget guy. Mach 1 with a super flying suit. And Songbird who has powerful screams. The new team defeats the Rat Pack and the Wrecking Crew. But in the final moments of the book, it is revealed that the Thunderbolts are in fact the villain Moon, Moonstone, Goliath fixer, the Beetle, Screaming Mimi and their leader, Baron Zemo.

>> Guido: Yes. Shocking.

>> Rob: So was this shocking actually, like when you.

>> Guido: So let me tell you. Yes, yes, please. And also I dug into, Kurt Busk writing, reflecting on this coming out. So here's what's really cool. They did everything they could to keep this a, secret, to the point where Kurt Boziak talks a lot about how a few. The first of all, the marketing team was having a really hard time marketing the book without revealing it. And so they had to convince the marketing team like, no, you cannot reveal it. You're just gonna have to market it as new heroes in the wake of onslaught. And they decided to go with, okay, fine, new heroes with a dark secret. So they do that. Meanwhile, there's a few leaks happening. Of course, this is like proto Internet days, so it, doesn't get widespread. And Kirp Busiak talks about how they actually bribed a few journalists in the comics world. They gave them exclusive interviews on other subjects to not print what the leaks that were coming out about this so that it would be a secret. And then, in fact, most of our listeners who are fans probably know they debut in fantastic, I mean they debut in the Incredible Hulk before their number one and the Incredible Hulk editorial team actually mistakenly wrote in the, solicit for the Hulk issue the superheroes that are secretly super viilllains. But Peter David, who was writing Hulk, knew the secret and knew that Kurt Busk was trying to keep it a secret and caught it and got them to take it out.

>> Rob: O. Wow.

>> Guido: So it was kept a pretty good secret. And I do remember being shocked. Now, do you remember anything with the spoiler? Because then I have one more thing to say about that. no.

>> Rob: I can't remember when I read it if I knew that they were the villains already, because I did like villains. I especially liked Baron Zemo. So I can't remember if I actually knew that going in or if it was a reveal to me at the time.

>> Guido: So it was definitely a reveal to me. Here's the thing. I didn't care. I didn't. I didn't know these characters. Like, like you. You're obsessed with villains. So even though my knowledge of the Marvel universe is far more extensive, I just didn't care about any of these characters. And so that is why, like, it's a very cool reveal. even to this day, rereading this issue for this. It's such a well constructed issue. Bruceiak does a great job of getting you to like these characters. They have their own little soap opera dynamics going on. They save the Statue of Liberty, like, it's all there, as if it was going to be a new team, and then it's not. And that's a shocking reveal. But I just didn't care because I didn't well know who any of them were except baron'emo.

>> Rob: Yeah, I'd say. I'd say that is probably hindering it a little bit even now, like, in hindsight, because, yeah, Baron's ememo. I'd maybe put the Beetle up there. I don't know. The Beetle might be like the next most famous. But if you didn't know the Squadron Supreme, I don't know if you'll know Moonstone. And then a lot of these screaming Mimi. I don't know at all. And the fixer seems kind of generic Goliath. I mean, I know there's just a bunch of people that can grow big, but not. Does not really stand out. So I do think, yes, it's not like it's Dr. Octopus and the Green Goblin. It's like all revealed that it's all these big A Lister villains, which I think.

>> Guido: Which is what part of why it works, frankly. Yeah. But though it works, I think better because it's more believable. It'd be a little obs.

>> Rob: It is believable.

>> Guido: All these. It's all these successful arch villains. So it sort of works that he's building this B list villain Team, if you will, or even C list villain team works narratively, but it'just didn't pull me in. Having said that, I. I would go back also and read more of it. I know that it gets some good soap opera telling of its own. They do tons of crossover titles. again, this team has had probably 10 iterations and we're going to talk a lot about the nature of thunderbolts and what. What should always be there and what doesn't have to be there. But anyway, rereading it was really fun and I enjoyed it. And like you, I always think. I mean, I bought the omnibuses with the intention of reading the series, but never did. So like you, I would go back.

>> Rob: And read it, take you right to that time. right. Like it just is so iconic of that era. So I think that is very enjoyable. It's a very wordy issue too, I thought. Especially when you compare it to a much more recent issue that we're going to talk about a little later on in the show.

>> Guido: Well, Boostiak is wordy, but I think he's well paced. I don't think it plods on. This is a double size issue. So that's probably part of why it felt denser to you also. So that.

>> Rob: And the Citizen V character especially, who's actually Baronemo, has a very distinct way of speaking. It has this kind of gravitas pseudo which he show. But that kind of hide'probably it probably is,

>> Guido: It probably was layered in as a clue even because that is sort of. It's the thing you always want from a megalomaniacal villain is like you want them to be like almost Shakespearean in this absurd way.

>> Rob: And that's one of the reasons why I think I liked Baron's Ememo as a character because you don't really ever see. For the most part, you don't see his face. I think they played it up a lot more in terms of his personality in that way with kind of. He is the ultimate kind of I just want to take over the world style villain. Like he's not a Dr. Octopus kind of character where maybe there's a little bit more nuance to him. He's strictly about revenge for his father and let me take over the world.

>> Guido: And his character is an interesting one, which neither of us are experts on, but it is based on. He refers to actually Citizen V being a World War II hero. And that is true. Citizen V was a comic book hero from the 1940s, so it's a cool thing that Busk is doing there where there's plenty of examples we know from the Human Torch and Vision to countless others less known ones where they Marvel took Golden Age characters and reinvented them. So it's a fun addition that this is sort of a reboot of Citizen V, if you will. obviously it's not in the end, but it's a fun use of that, I'd say.

>> Rob: Yeah. I was reminded a lot reading this of a lightereight Squadron supreme. And I think the Squadron supreme comics is up there with Watchmen. Like I think it's that.

>> Guido: Yeah, it should be.

>> Rob: So this does. Does not approach that. But There's.

>> Guido: This is 12 years later, so.

>> Rob: But there's a similarity there, I think.

>> Guido: Yeah, I think there's inspiration and I think Busiak would probably say that for sure.

>> Rob: Hm. The soap opera, even the use of Moonsar to come here. M. Yeah.

>> Guido: I mean Moonstone pre exists Squadron supreme or the character that's this Moonstone debuts elsewhere prior to that. But yeah, I think there's definitely influence in terms of just the question it's asking here in particular what would happen. And I like, you know, in some of the other interviews I was reading with Busiak, he talks about how this, the idea came up when they were at the writer's retreat at the summit and they were going through Onslaught and they knew that all the core Marvel universe heroes would disappear at the end of Onslaught. They. He proposed, well, what if we got a new team? Because everyone else who will exist in the universe who's not the Fantastic Four, not the Avengers, not Iron man, not Hulk, not Thor, is sort of a darker sort of street level. It's the daredevils who are going to be left behind. And so he was like, okay, what if we design a whole new team? Flashy, bright colors, spandex outfits like a classic superhero team, but secretly they're super viillains who are trying to fill that. That void. And then what he was most interested in, which I think is probably why the series has the staying power it did, he said he was most interested in the question of what would happen when they start being loved and admired for their heroic acts. Would it call their. Their nefarious villainss into question inside their own being. And I think that's why it's so reminiscent of Squadron supreme. Because like Gruenwald is doing in that Busiek is asking these bigger questions. He's slightly deconstructing superheroes with this, which is what Squadron's doing, which is what Watchmeman's doing. He's doing it in a very different way and in a very much more comic bookie, superheroy way. But he is asking questions about like, what is the nature of a hero? Why, why do we love them? What will newscasters do? In this case, the mayor's aid meets them right away. Like, there's all of those dynamics at play. So.

>> Rob: Yeah. And you know the Onslaught story so much better than I do. But I was even thinking here, it's like when you have a villain like that or a Thanos or something of that size, the. The Beetle or Goliath or the Fixer seem pretty small in comparison. Like, I almost feel like it is an interesting story of like, oh, if you had a villain like Onslaught that's really decimating the world as we know it, it almost makes sense that like, a character like the Fixer is gonna go, well, actually, I'm gonna kind of step into my own as a hero. Like, I'm not a villain. Come when you compare it to this other force that's just killing and causing all this destruction.

>> Guido: Yeah. Similarly too, what I thought you were gonna say, and I think these are. These two things could be happening in tandem. They're also rebranding themselves as a bigger deal than they were originally. Like, like we were saying, these are a lot of C list characters. They now have all sort of upgraded their designs a little so that they come off as a bigger deal than they were. So not only does it shift how they're situated as a villain, but I think it just shifts in terms of their power or how big a deal they are, which. So it's working on all these different levels, which is probably again, why this series that m surprisingly lasted to 150 plus issues. Mmm, did.

>> Rob: And another interesting thing that they do here, which you only get touched on, is they talk a lot about the fact that the Avengers were working on a federal level. And in fact, the mayor of New York wants the Thunderbolts to represent to be the official New York superhero team. And that's actually kind of an interesting concept there because yes, we have people, we have these superheroes that work for the federal government or work for SHIELD or they're just on their own like a spider man. But it's interesting that, Oh, what about if a city like New York had their own superhero team? What would that be in working for not like a federal level, but kind of a smaller municipality? I mean, it's New York City, so it's pretty Big. But that's kind of an interesting idea that we only get a little bit here in the first issue, and I'm curious how that would continue to develop as the story goes on.

>> Guido: Yeah, agreed. Well, maybe one day, one, of one or both of us will read it and find out.

>> Rob: Until then, let's, let's all go to the movies. With exploring Multiversity.

>> Guido: I am your guide.

>> Rob: Through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if?

>> Guido: So it's time for our spoiler warning before we dig into our what if? And as I mentioned, the Thunderbolts have been reinvented and rebooted a number of times, but they have a shockingly small number of alternate universe versions of them. And so normally, what we do in this segment, as our listeners know, is look at an alternate version of the team. There aren't too many compelling ones for the Thunderbolts, so we decided to look at a movie that is hot off the presses or whatever the equivalent of a press is on screen. Hot. Hot on the screens. So, spoiler warning. We are going to spoil through to the very end of Thunderbolts in just a moment. So if you care about a spoiler, then you should come back and listen to this after you've seen the movie. And if you don't care about the spoiler, stick around. Here we go.

>> Rob: So this is Thunderbolts Asteris from Marvel Studios and released just like now in May 2025. And we're asking the question, what if the Thunderbolts actually became a team called.

>> Guido: Redacted, and it's directed by Jake Schreierier, written by Eric Pearson and Joanna Kow, and produced by Kevin Feige.

>> Rob: Oh, I've heard before.

>> Guido: And again, this is Earth MCU that we're looking at. So I guess let's start with some general impressions, and then we'll get into the question and the big spoiler at the end that everyone was sort of waiting for in terms of what the asterisk is. But let's just start with an overall impression of the story.

>> Rob: I. Well, you and I disagree a little bit on this one.

>> Guido: Only slightlyightly. It's just, shades of gray between.

>> Rob: I think we. Well, I'll just speak for myself. I enjoyed it. I would say it's kind of a middle of the road Marvel movie, but after some movies like the Marvels and the New World Order, I would definitely rank it far.

>> Guido: Brave New World.

>> Rob: Brave New World.

>> Guido: World Order. New Order.

>> Rob: That's the wrestling. But, yeah, I Would definitely rank it far ahead of those movies. I thought it had good humor, good action for me, and where it lacked in for me was kind of the character development. I think it felt a little reliant on, like, oh, you've seen these characters before, you know, a little bit of their backstory. But a lot of it felt, in that regard repetitive. Or I kind of wish a lot more of the development, the arcs had been on the screen rather than just told to us. But overall, enjoyed it. What bit? What did you think?

>> Guido: Yeah, I think it's great fun, and I think there's a lot of holes and questions and mess that I chalk up to the transitions over the last five years that we know they've been going through as a storytelling business behemoth. And in spite of those things, I think it's really fun and has good action and has good team interplay and good team dynamics. And it was definitely a return to form for Marvel movies. I think it was the first Marvel movie in a large number, definitely since Wakanda Forever, maybe even slightly before that, that it felt like, oh, okay, I'm excited for the future. I see what they're doing here. It has a tone I like and can get into. I want more, but I'm also feeling satisfied. So I think it did a lot of important things for me. As our regular listeners know, I was beginning the divorce proceedings for me and Marvel, and I. Luckily, I think we're just in a trial separation now.

>> Rob: Well, I felt like looking back on some of those recent movies, like, the Marvels felt like they were revising it after they shot it with the latest Captain America. We know that they revised it, like, while they were shooting it, but they did revise it, like, while they were actively making it. This one feels like they revised it in the writing period before they got.

>> Guido: In front of it. Yeah, I.

>> Rob: So it's still, like, you're saying there's still stuff you can tell. Oh, this probably wasn't how it was meant to be, but unlike those other movies where the changes were made kind of during or even after I think the movie was already made, like, this does feel like they at least had time to address some of those issues in advance.

>> Guido: Yes, agreed. So what is our unredacted question? Our, unredacted question is the big, biggest spoiler of the movie, perhaps. What if the Thunderbolts actually became a team called the Avengers or the New Avengers, depending on which version you want to go with. And that is such a fun twist at the end of the movie. I think the asterisk was definitely bothering me for much of the movie. I was like, what did the asterisk mean? Did it just mean that this is kind of more of a century movie than a Thunderbolts movie? And then I love that Valentina introduces them as the Avengers and then they become known as the New Avengers, which.

>> Rob: Is, you know, because they're just great. A little angsty and darker. And they came out of the 90s. They should have been the New Avengers. Nu. Like corn. Like.

>> Guido: Like you're just New World Order on the mind.

>> Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's like the edgy, you know, new metal, you know, and it's kind of back in vogue now too, so it would have worked.

>> Guido: So I think what's interesting in terms of the alternate universe here is obviously going into this movie, there was a question in mind, and I'm sure everyone else's mind, like, okay, are they goingn secretly be villains? Right. That would be. That would be the Thunderbolts. That would be staying true to the literal interpretation or the literal sequence of events, I should say, in the 1997 comic, is that they are secretly villains. That's obviously much harder to do on a film than it is in a comic. It's also not been true of a lot of the rebooted versions of the Thunderbolts. They're not. Not every version of the team that gets created is just a secret identity swap. And so I think this is an interesting retelling of what makes the Thunderbolts. The Thunderbolts, in that they are not what you think. And in this case, you have that operating on a few levels because in the end, Valentina's telling the world they're the Avengers, but they didn't intend to be the Avengers. They didn't even necessarily want to be that. They're a little bit darker. Darker in that they've all probably killed people at different times in their careers. They're a little closer to an anti hero than an actual hero. But it doesn't have the. Like. It's actually Baron Zemo, of course. That would be so fun if u. What's his name? Daniel.

>> Rob: Daniel Brulels. Yeah.

>> Guido: Yeah. If Daniel Bru, like, showed up and was, was actually Sebastian. Stan was like an image inducer that Daniel Brol Was using or something.

>> Rob: So I was kept waiting for him actually. Like, that was one of the things I thought because I knowing m not their later iterations, but really knowing that 90s version and associating the team mostly with him. Because as you said, like, it's otherwise, it's kind of third tier folks. So I was like, oh, is he going to make an appearance? Because it's such. He's such an iconic character with the Thunderbolts. But no, I think like what you're. Yeah. I wouldn't say any of these characters that are in the team in the movie, I would classify it as villains. Yes, they've done bad things, they've been anti heroes, but they. But someone like the Fixer or the Beatle for example, have. Were out and out like villains, robbing bans, doing all those kind of things, which you don't get from this. From this team. Maybe they also. That's why the questioniate a bit from the Suicide Squad. I don't know, like where like that are also like out and out villains in that way.

>> Guido: Yeah, they're being manipulated. Like they're being forced to do what they're doing.

>> Rob: So true.

>> Guido: There's not, there's not a trick there, this one. I think the trick, if you will, is that again, they're not. They didn't want to be the Avengers. That wasn't their plan. That wasn't why they were doing what they were doing. So it's almost Valentina. Valentina's almost the Baron Zemo of.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: The movie version of the Thunderbolt. She's the one who's manipulating everyone. She's the one who's like putting on this facility. She's doing it in that moment to protect herself because this whole thing went south because of her, obviously. And they agree to do it. And I love when Yelena says to her, like, we own you. Like at that point they're in and they like it and they all. It's. It's a little bit of what Kurt Busk was saying. Like what happens when you do start to get admired and appreciated just as a human being. Again, as you said, these aren't villains here, but you see that in this narrative a little bit. They're all reluctant heroes. That at best they're reluctant heroes. And now they're getting popular. They're. They're having cameras take picture, photographers take their pictures. The whole end credit sequence shows like all the newspaper coverage and magazine coverage. And so that aspect of it is the same as the 1997 comic book run. like what happens when these characters are. Are doing things that the public adore them for.

>> Rob: Yeah. And there's a connectivity like a looking glass version of this Thunderbolts team with the Eternals actually I'm thinking because the Eternals is almost the opposite. In some ways they think they're heroes, and in some ways they're villains. Well, or they don't know that they are going to be villains, but they're being tasked to destroy the Earth. Right. So in some ways, like, oh, they kind of start thinking that they are the saviors and in fact they are the destroyers. And of course, over the course of that movie, we see them coming to terms with that and where do they stand? So there's almost a difference here because here we have these characters kind of starting thinking, well, I'm not a hero. And they are on the journey to try to become. Well, they inadvertently need to become heroes by the end of it. So there's almost a flip there in some ways.

>> Guido: Yeah, I could see that. I don't want to talk about the Eternals because they are a sore spot because I love that movie and I cannot believe that none of those characters have shown up ever again.

>> Rob: And we're not announ's a. what if.

>> Guido: Oh, please, get out of here.

>> Rob: And what if. I was actually thinking of that movie a good amount. There's almost something I thought with, And with. And. And what. What's Richard Madden's characters. What's his name in the Eternals?

>> Guido: Icarus.

>> Rob: Icarus. There's. There's almost something a little with like Icarus's arc and with Bob's arc in this.

>> Guido: Yeah, well, it's a very powerful being, but who's dealing with their own struggles. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I was thinking a lot about the Eternals too, because that's the last movie that I got really excited about and felt really had the Marvel magic in it for me. So it feels like. And that was four years ago. So it feels like it's been four years of a lot of like, slogging along and now we're back. And so it's interesting to think there's some parallels in these. I think also because the Marvel magic is best when you have a team movie, and we haven't had too many of those in. In the. In between. So I think that is probably why there's echoes of it also.

>> Rob: In fact, you and I had both said that this movie, the Thunderbolts, and now we think that there might be like a two hour mandate with some of these Marvel movies and that they might have actually benefited from this movie being longer, which I think actually since you have this team element, like you could have sat with some of these characters, especially a character Like Ghost, who doesn't really get as much to do in the movie. I think that would have actually benefited. And the more we were talking about it, I was thinking, oh, actually, this movie might have been even stronger as a TV show, because most. A lot of the Marvel TV shows feel like they are dragged on. But what like Agatha all along did really well is like, oh, let's focus each episode on a member of this cast. And I could have seen, like, a Thunderbolts TV show doing that as well. So I actually think it would have even been better as a television show, while most of the TV shows would have been much better as a movie. Or maybe not made at all.

>> Guido: For sure. So an interesting, alteration to the question to get at what the nature of the Thunderbolts actually are. And I think in our final segment, we'll dig in even more to what is a Thunderbolt story.

>> Rob: Yeah. So let's wrap up with some pondering possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted?

>> Guido: Diverted? Diverted?

>> Rob: So, Guido, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?

>> Guido: So, like I said, they've been rebooted a number of times. They generally are working for someone, interestingly, maybe that feels like it's part of their nature. So you have Wilson Fisk's Thunderbolts at one point, you have Luke Cage's Thunderbolts when they actually try to rebrand them as heroes. At one point, you have Norman Osborn's Thunderbolts.

>> Rob: And that's a little. All little Suicide Squad as well, right?

>> Guido: True. Maybe that's why you feel a little bit of that connection. So there's so many different versions of main prime 616 universe canon of Thunderbolts, But I decided to go for the most recent. With the exception of the One World Under Doom storyline happening right now, there's an event that relates to Thunderbolts, but the last Thunderbolts solo title, that is just from last year and was clearly inspired by the MCU composition of this team. And so I want to talk a little bit about this issue, and then we can tie it back to our alternate universe, which was the MCU.

>> Rob: O this is Thunderbolts number one from Marvel Comics from February 2024. And this story is entitled Op01 Operation Skullurn.

>> Guido: Yes. And it's written by two of my favorites, Callin Kelly and Jackson Lansing, Penciled by Geraldo Borges, who did the inks, colored by Arthur Hesley, lettered by Joe Sabino, edited by Caitlin Lindvet and Alana Smith. And so this is considered the Thunderbolts Revolution team, if you will. And it follows the big Captain America storyline in which there's this whole secret society called the Revolution. And they, Bucky and Steve take them down. And so this has Bucky going to Valentina and wanting to finally destroy the Red Skull. And in the wake of this other secret society being taken down and wants to do that as Thunderbolts, if you will, and recruits Valentina and they end up recruiting, Sharon Carter, Destroyer and Red Guardian shows up. And I think that's everyone in this issue. Right. But then next issue we get Yelena, White Widow, Black Widow. So we got a few of the other MCU characters showing up in this, which is a mini series. So this is only four, I think four issues. So what did you think?

>> Rob: I was just going to say before we get into that, like on, obviously you're not in the room when it happens, but does Marvel. They know they're making the movie, so do they then say like, oh, Colin and Jackson, like, you need to like make this team. That kind of reflects.

>> Guido: Yeah. Ever since. So it was about three years ago maybe now that Kevin Feige took over creative control of both publishing and the studio so that there'd be for a vomit inducing word, s. More synergy between them. And so, I don't know how it happens, how the sausage gets made in terms of direction, but I mean, this one wouldn't have been hard because they're, they've been teasing at this point that Kelly and Lansing are writing this. There's probably even like a teaser poster out with some of the characters. So it wouldn't have been like a huge surprise or spoiler for them to say to Kelly and Lansing, like, here's. Here's a roster we want you to figure out how to use. So, yeah, I don't know how exactly it happens, but it definitely happens. It happens all the time with books, over the last two years where you have the same characters that you're seeing on screen come out in books around the same time that you're seeing them, in the movies. So. Yeah. What did you think of this issue? I thought it having not read what's leading into it.

>> Rob: Yeah, it's, it's hard because I'm coming at this ad in a vacuum. But I mean, I thought it was perfectly fine. I think the biggest issue with me is just determining like, oh, what makes kind of go back to really our central question of this episode, which is like, what makes the thunderbolts the thunderbolts? Like, is this enough of an antihero team to be that, like, you kind of go from, like, villains in our first issue to kind of these antiheroes in the film to hear, like, I don't know if they all kind of qualify for that. So.

>> Guido: No. they're just like rogue warriors, if you will. They are very much like suicide squad, Although not even as bad as suicide squad. They're. They're. Yeah. Because you can't say, you know, Sharon Carter was never a villain.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: So Bucky and Valentina. Fine. and you could say Black Widow, too. you know, has killed. Has been a villain. Red Guardian, I guess, is probably right on the line also.

>> Rob: But, yeah, I guess the difference here is that you have Bucky willing to kill the red skull yese he kills.

>> Guido: The bodies inhabiting there. Sharon curses a lot, which I love. So, you knowthough it's kind awkward because it.

>> Rob: They blanket out, and it's. It's like watching a network television show where someone's cursing and theying. And it's like. It's almost worse because it's. I can't.

>> Guido: It draws attention to it.

>> Rob: It draws attention to it. Yes. It makes it, Yeah. I kind of wasn't in love with that, actually.

>> Guido: Yeah. Well, I think the biggest takeaway, so. So I agree. It's. It's continuing this process, which, again, has been done in comics for the last 10, 15 years, too, of broadening what the thunderbolts are and not having them just be a, a team with a secret, if you will. But I think one of the things that struck me reading this was, where the hell is Sharon Carter in, the movies?

>> Rob: Movies, yes.

>> Guido: I mean, because it almost makes me wonder if there was an early draft of the script that had her in it because of the way they're using her, featuring her so prominently in this. And now she's featured in the Captain America run leading into this. So it makes a lot of sense. It's not like they shoehorn her in. She takes on the destroyer mantle in that run. So. So it makes sense in the comics why she's here, but it would also make sense in the movie.

>> Rob: Yeah. And she was such a big character in the fcon Falcon winter soldier.

>> Guido: She has a secret. And we don't. We still don't know what the hell or secret is. I don't know if we're ever gonna know what it is. And, it's just shame.

>> Rob: Yeah. what. What was it called? What was her.

>> Guido: The power broker.

>> Rob: Power broker. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But. Yes, no, it totally would have made sense. I mean, I think we said the same thing with the, Captain America Brave New World as well. Right? It's like, oh, either one of those, she really should have been in.

>> Guido: But reading this makes me think, oh, she could have fit in with thunderbolts. Like, yeah, that could have been a secret. Or, you know, like, there could have been some secret with that, or, I don't know, she's pretending to be someone else, or who knows what's happening? Like, you could have made it work. And I get it. I don't know. If it ever was in a draft script, then maybe it would have pulled them away. But reading this issue, really, especially since Yelena joins this team. Like, this team is the movie team. No. Century Plus Sharon Carter. So it's like, why? What are you doing? I don't. I don't get it. And that's a shame. But would you read more of this miniseries?

>> Rob: M. Probably not. I mean, it actually kind of made me want to go back and read the 97 one more read, and I kind of like. Like, one thing I like about the 97 one, which neither the two other versions of the team that we're talking about, do, is that there is, like, this kind of unabashed spandex superhero aspect to it, which is actually kind of interesting.

>> Guido: And he's becoming more of an espionage.

>> Rob: Yes. And I love the jsa. I love the Squadron Supreme. Like, I love those kind of unabashed where they're just like, we're gonna have capes and bright colors and all those things. So I kind of like that they embrace that here. And, yeah, this feels like a little bit more like, oh, yes, we're gonna do the quote unquoteion impossible. Sharon's gonna curse.

>> Guido: Yeah, everyone's wearing leather and has guns.

>> Rob: Exactly. Yeah.

>> Guido: Yeah. But it's fun. I mean, I love Kelly and Lansing a lot as writers, and I do like this ensemble of characters. It'just it'short it's four issues, and it's meant sort of to be an epilogue to the larger Captain America run.

>> Rob: And it's interesting, kind of going back to the movie, too, before we wrap up. It's like, it's interesting because it felt a little bit like watching the movie. Oh, these are characters that were in other movies, but we don't really know what to do with. But we're Marvel, so we never want to stop using characters like, we want to still use them. So it's very interesting to think that. Oh, now, with the kind of announcement that they are the Avengers or the New Avengers, that we will see a lot more of these characters. Like I could have almost seen it like be like, okay, like this is a way to say right off character like Ghost or John Walker, like we introduced them, they didn't like really catch fire the way we thought. We'renna kind of get rid of them now with like this other movie, but instead like we're actually going toa see more of them in some way. So I'll be really curious to see like what is that? Like they're not getting their own movie. We're not going to probably see a new Avengers movie. So like how will they play ap part in some of the upcoming MCU movies in that way?

>> Guido: Yeah, agreed. And how will the Eternals play a part is also important question.

>> Rob: Well, we'never got you know, Black Knight at the end of the Eternals that we're never gonna see.

>> Guido: But I don't care about him. I t care about the Eternals. So yeah, if the Thunderbolts was to be rebooted in comics, do you think they have to be villains? Do you think they have to have a secret? Like what do they need in a totally fresh five years from now there's a new comic run, but it. But everyone. Or three years from now, the 30th anniversary of Thunderbolts, someone wants to do a new series that like feels like the original. Do they have to have a secret? Do they have to be villains? What is the Thunderbolts?

>> Rob: I'd love to kind of go. I'd love to do like a more go back to the pure villains idea of it and maybe get some either newer characters that have been introduced in the meantime or maybe some bigger name characters like maybe let's look at some of like the Spider Man Rogueues gallery. All of which are more memorable I think than some of the characters they chose for the original Thunderbolts, except for Zeo. So I would like to see an out and out villain team again, but maybe with some either fresh blood or some bigger names.

>> Guido: I agree. I think I'd like that to be built into the nature of the Thunderbolts. I think what has to happen and I am sure there are storytellers that could do this. What I think you need is you need a different reason that they exist.

>> Guido: You can't just copy the 97 deal. But I'm sure that again, a good storyteller can come up with a compelling reason why these villains have come together and formed a fake superhero team. I think. I think if you do that, it's the classic thunderbolts.

>> Rob: M h, yeah, totally.

>> Guido: So, from our mouths to, Kevin's ears.

>> Rob: He'S gonna be a little busy with, a billion dollar movie for.

>> Guido: The next couple years. Two of them, potentially, for the next two years. Well, in the meantime, that is a wrap. Deer Watchers, thank you for listening. I have been guido, but secretly Rob, pretending to be the hero Guido and.

>> Rob: I have been robbed, but secretly guido. Note. Actually, Rob.

>> Guido: The reading list is in the show Notes. Follow us on Bluey, Instagram threads,

>> Rob: Deeratchers, and leave us a five star review wherever you listen. We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.

>> Guido: In the meantime, keep pondering the possibilities.