Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Welcome to Dear Watchers in Omniversal comic book podcast, where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey are.

Me, Keto, and Me from the dust bin of history. It's Rob.

Oh, uh, there you go. I was trying to think of something, but it just didn't come to me.

It's a tricky it's a tricky one. But before we get into this week's quite interesting episode, guido, what's new in.

Our fun little section of the universe?

Okay. Yes, funny.

Funny, uh, fun. Well, last week was our really exciting interview with Luciano Vecchio. So if listeners haven't heard last week's episode, go back and listen to it. It was a great conversation. It's had a great reaction from listeners and from people online. We've loved seeing what people thought and found when they heard his story and where he came to his work from. And some connections happened today because Grant Morrison came up in his story. And I might have something to share about Grant Morrison later on in today's episode.

OOH, exciting.

Yeah.

If you are joining us for the first time, we have three sections of our travels today. Origins of the story. What inspired this other reality? Exploring multiversity. We dive deeper into the alternate universe and pondering possibilities. We examine the impact and what's followed or coming in the future.

And remember, you can support us by leaving us a review. Wherever you're listening, you can join us on Coffee, where we have a spin off show, Omniversity. Um, thank you for your support and spreading the word.

And thank you for listening to today's episode. And with that, uh, dear Watchers, welcome to episode 87, and let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with today's alternate universe. And today we are asking the question, what if there was a land of canceled heroes?

And guess what? There is. So this is an unknown Earth. It may even exist across the entire fictional Omniverse. More on that soon. But in Marvel's Multiverse, the Marvel Wiki folks gave it the temporary number of seven nine Earth 709. Because there's not an existing designation for this land of canceled heroes, though we have seen it a few times, which we're going to share all about in just a moment.

Mhm. So the land of canceled heroes, guido, these are heroes that tweeted antivaxxer things on Twitter, right? They said bad jokes on Twitter, sent out pictures of their private parts, so they're all canceled now.

They're private parts? Hold on. The whole schmele was going well, and then you had to say private parts. So, I don't know, you should be canceled. No, you should be canceled for calling one's genitals their private part.

But I grew up in the 18 hundreds. That's what they were referred to. Anyway.

Uh uh.

That's not what they are. About?

No, we can explore what might define a canceled hero, particularly in this media saturated market. I want to talk about what cancellation means today. Not the version of cancellation you're describing, but the version these writers are talking about, which is they cease publication.

Yeah, exactly. So, Gito, what was your background with the Land of Canceled Heroes?

So I knew it existed and I was waiting for us to cover it. I did not know all of the tentacles this land has and may have until we did research and prep for this episode. But I knew that KZR ended with this really wacky meta sequence, and I've just been waiting for us to cover it. How about you? I think I took you by surprise when I told you to read case R 34.

Yes. I had no idea what to expect. I had never heard of this mystical land before, and I'm sure many of our other listeners haven't either. So with that, why don't we jump on our saber tooth tiger and ride into origins of the story right now.

On this very show, you're going to.

Get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago, so the Earth we are covering today kicks off with Kzar. And we last covered Kzar back in episode 42. So we're not going to spend too much time really talking about Kzar as a character.

He's a little go back and listen to episode 42 because it was a lot of fun.

Yeah, that is one of my all time favorite What Ifs, and I think it is yours as well. What if New York remained the savage land forever and there's thanos in it? And there's lots of really great humor really recommend that that's What If? Volume two, issue 112. But then we also, as part of that episode, also covered his very first appearance way back in Xmen Number Ten in 1965. We also talked a little bit about his appearances in the 90s as well, leading up to that What If? And we looked at his origin there and really loved it. But in this case, it's really just a metaphor or a vehicle for more meta storytelling.

Yeah, I don't think it's a metaphor. Too many uses of the word meta going on here.

That's true. There's maybe some metaphor in it, but we'll get to that in a moment.

And we also have for our origins, we're going to share with you some of our episodes where we've started covering the meta storytelling. What's funny is we've never shared with our listeners when we were talking about our spinoff podcast, um, diversity. I remember one of the things that we talked about and I think I brought up was my dream, though I think it would require way too much research, my dream of doing a podcast all about meta fourth wall breaking stories because we love them. And I think you and I had just watched an old I Love Lucy commercial that was shockingly meta, where it breaks the fourth wall, and it really surprised us. And it just had me thinking about how much I love meta storytelling. And that's been clear to our listeners of this show. It's been clear to the listeners of Omniversity because Prometheus is quite meta, and I think we'll go into some other meta things when we finish our Promethea Book Club. But if you want to go back and listen, I'd say episode 33 of our show, where we cover the very famous what if where the Marvel bullpen become The Fantastic Four. That's a great example of Marvel Bronze Age meta stuff, where they're using the people that you know in Marvel and placing them in the world of the comics. We also talked a lot about meta storytelling on episodes 45 and 46 because you and I looked at Elvira in Horror Land as she goes through the multiverse of horror movies. And then we did an interview with David Avaloni, the writer, and talked a lot about his work in meta storytelling. There was our first imaginary story in episode 51, which was Superman watching the Superman serials with Lois Lane. And then the last episode I'd recommend as an origin to this one is if you didn't listen to episode 72, where we interview Kat Gruwald about Mark Gruenwald's impact on Marvel. I mean, he is the king, I'd say, of humorous 1980s Marvel meta jokes. And I'm sure he played some role in at least some of what we saw today. He even gets an odd shout out in one of the later issues. So those are some of the times that we've explored meta storytelling, and I love that we're going to be able to explore it in this alternate universe today.

Yes. So did you know, Keto, that this whole segment you just had was actually a dream? And when we wake up in exploring multiversity, you're going to wake up in a bed next to Suzanne Pleshette. So with that, what does that mean?

I don't know. Uh, new, uh heart. New heart, yes, with this comic connection there, I used to buy the comic that that was very meta because they actually released the Mad Dog comic that he drew in the show of the later show, not the Met later show. That was the later show. Yeah.

Trying to get my eighty s meta Gruenwald esque joke in there. So with that, let's go to Exploring Multiversity. I am your guide through these vast new realities.

Follow me and ponder the question, what if?

And today we have Kzar the Savage from October 1984. This is issue number 34, the final issue of this run. And this story is entitled Savage in a Strange Land. But there's also an epilogue, and there is a little book end story called The Last Kzar Picture Show.

Yeah. So this is written by Mike Carlin, penciled by Paul Neri inked by Carlos Garzone colored by George Russos lettered by Janice Chang edited by Danny Fingeroff And, uh, the bookends, which are photography by Elliot Brown. They're one of the classic Marvel Bullpen photo series. And the script is also by Mike Carlin with lettering by John Morelli. So we're going to talk about these three chunks separately, and our briefest conversation is going to be about the main story of this Kzar. So a quick summary is that Shane has been captured by these aliens with some giant bone key that's a gateway, and Kazar and Zabu follow her and find that it's an artificial jungle that these aliens created to produce adrenaline because they can use it as a poison or something to get back at their former employers. And Kzar then rescues Shana and escapes, and she discovers she's pregnant. And so they sort of live happily ever after. They quite literally close the door in the final panel. But that continues in the epilogue, which we'll get to in a moment. But let's stay on the main story, which is the six one six for Earth. Six one six for just a moment. Did you enjoy the main story having zero context of the rest of this run of Kzar?

Uh, not really. Only when I was kind of reading it as a metaphor. Uh, there's that word for the end of this run because it's so completely ridiculous. You have these aliens, they're kidnapped all the people from the Savageland to get their adrenaline, and Casar produces the most of all, and as you said in the summaries, to get back at their bosses, who wanted them to build this artificial zoo but then left. We have no idea who the bosses are. But this whole thing kind of feels a little bit like Mike Carla is saying, well, this run is ending, and then these bosses were leaving. And I don't know, it's not quite clear because, as you said, we're kind of jumping into it. But it does feel like they're trying to say something. It almost feels like this is such a stock story, almost comically. So is aliens kidnapping him and it's just so random, or it feels like.

It was going to go somewhere much further, and it got cut short. So he had to real quick come up with I mean, the aliens literally explained their motivation on two paragraphs of caption boxes. So that made me think like, okay, he had this story plotted for longer, and then a cancellation notice came through.

Aliens are a little saucy, like they're bringing them their food, and here's their food, and, oh, let's speak in English because that's what these people speak. And they kind of look a little like, I don't know, like the creatures from The Fifth Element that show up at the end or something like that.

So it's fun. Uh, I love the art, but yes, out of context, it's a weird rushed for sure, ending, but it's really just a vehicle for where we're going. Let's start with the odd detour that's actually on the inside front cover and inside back cover. But if you read this issue digitally, this is one of the rare instances where Marvel Digital did a great job of scanning these pages and including them. Usually they leave out things like the letters page, but luckily, they knew this was too fun and funny and needed to be included for the whole experience of the issue. So what is happening on these two page photo stories in the front and last cover?

Well, there is a party to celebrate KSR's cancellation, one of the many Marvel Bullpen parties. And everyone's there having a crazy Marvel Bullpen time. But Mike Carlin is really trying to get his coworkers out of the room, so he actually tells them that moonlight is having a cancellation party. They've got food. They all rush out to do that. On the back cover, Mike Carlin is pretty much alone, and he's monologuing a bit, and then he uses this point. He's all nervous, and he uses this moment to propose to one very special reader, patricia Powers.

Yeah, it's so weird. It's one of those great instances of the Marvel Bullpen. That's why I recommended listeners go back and listen to the Mark Groonwald episode if they didn't, because it's just clear. It's these people having fun. They obviously all had to pose for these photos. They're not existing photos because they show, like, everyone partying. And Mike Carlin with his head down looking sad. So they went through the office and posed for these, and I think that's just hilarious. And then I suspect this is a real proposal that he's making to someone. I tried to find if he's married to a Patricia Carlin. It's pretty hard to find because both names are pretty similar, uh, pretty common mike Carlin and Patricia Powers. So I couldn't find direct confirmation. Maybe she said no.

Publish this in a comic for everyone to see. That would not be great.

But it is just a really fun artifact. And it's funny that they used the cancellation to play a little bit, and I don't know why it's called The Last Ksr Picture Show. I know there's a movie, The Last Picture Show, contemporary to that of something.

Of course. The Last Picture Show. Last case. And what was fun, too, was at New York Comic Con this year, we actually got to go to a celebration of Mark Ruinwald. And a big part of that was actually Elliot Brown's photograph of the Marvel Bullpen. That's actually where we got to meet Katherine Grewwald. And so it was really cool to see Elliot's name here, because he was one of the primary documenters of the Zany.

He was an assistant editor. But, yes, he took all the pictures. Uh, and I'm waiting for a book from him. He mentioned it on that panel.

Yeah, it reminds me I said to you, even though he was doing with artwork. But it reminds me a little bit of, like, the work of Drew Friedman to those kind of indie comics where it was not celebrities. It was kind of the take on the normal man there. And, uh, also, I really liked I growing up, I loved Bullseye, that little one panel comic that they had in all the Marvel issues. Yeah.

Uh, bullpent and solicit.

I loved all of those insights, all the behind the scenes look at Marvel. So it's just great to get this here with some of the in jokes and everything.

Yeah. And it's fitting that there's this meta wrap around, because then, of course, there's the epilogue to this issue, which is what takes us to Earth 709, our land of canceled heroes. So in the epilogue, we see that Kzar is in a comic book. So there's someone reading the final pages of the story when he clicks the door shut. But then Kazar gets pulled out of the comic and sort of turned into a spirit, and he has to fight all these shrouded demons. One is clearly man thing. One is clearly Silver Surfer, Miss Marvel. And he's like, oh, no. Not again. Here we go. I hate when this happens. Don't you guys ever get tired? Clearly, he's been fighting this battle before, we should say. And it's all a bit he gets to Devil Dinosaur, and he's like, all right. But no one is a match for Kzar, lord of the land of canceled heroes. So what did you think when you flipped that page? Like, that was new for you? And then I'll go through everyone who we see in this who makes cameos, and we can talk more about it. But what did you think in that moment?

I was totally surprised. I wasn't sure what was happening. And like you said, you don't quite see all of the characters that he's encountering. You can't quite tell who they are. But then I was like, oh, that's definitely man thing. And he calls them, um, this thing. So you get that. And then Silver Surfers. Easy to identify. And Ms. Marvel. So it was like, oh, something's going on here. There's this big mansion, then, so it has that kind of old Dark House deal. What's happening? So I was then completely surprised that we're going into complete meta, uh, world. It almost reminded me of I haven't read, actually, the Sandman comics, but even the Sandman TV show, where in the dream world, basically, all the dreams are kind of hanging out before they get plucked.

Right? It's like a limbo limbo.

And I think you've seen that in other places before. So that's what it was making me think of.

Well, we find out kzar is the king of this place because he's been canceled the most, and everyone welcomes him back. And he has now reached the point where he has been terminated more than any other character in the Marvel Universe at the time. And he swears he will be back. And in this land with him we have Silver Surfer, Miss Marvel Man Thing, Devil Dinosaur, Nova, Spider Woman, Deathlock Killraven, Goliath, dr. Juid Brother, Voodoo Two Gunkid Morbius, Dracula, the Howling Commandos. It the living Colossus kid cult Omega, the Unknown Phantom Rider, shang Chi werewolf by Night Zombie and I love they're hanging a banner up that says coming soon. Crysta clearly Kristar. Which is very funny because Kristar ends early the next year. So they must have known the writing was on the wall, or maybe the cancellation had been announced and a tower.

Duck hanging the banner.

Oh, yes. I didn't even add him to our list. Um, so it's funny. It's a great example of metahumor, this land of canceled heroes. Now, obviously, the other fun thing is some of these characters have been canceled since I mean, Omega the Unknown was just barely resurrected once, uh, for one series ten years ago, and then Steve Orlando just brought him back last year. Um, Kid Colt. I don't know. There's been much with it. The living, Colossus. And then, of course, you have characters like Captain Marvel and Shang Chi, who chong Chi has only had an ongoing since the movie. Captain Marvel, though, has had a huge renaissance, if you will. So it's just really funny to see who in 1984 was in the Land of Canceled Heroes with him, some of whom are still quite canceled and some of whom are thriving outside of the land.

Yeah, it's a lot of those mystical characters that must have been really big.

Well, there was the horror Bronze Age of the 70s, which we've talked about on a few episodes about this Rider or Man Thing or ah, Werewolf by.

Night, werewolf by Night, Dracula. Yeah, all those characters kind of popular.

So, like, all those Bronze Age horror titles by 84 are canceled. And so they're hanging out in that land waiting for their king, Ksr to come along. So I think it's a lot of fun. It's fun to look at the Easter eggs. It's a fun epilogue to this story. But we have seen more of this Earth. So I'm ready when you are to find out.

Yes. So let's close the door, just like Shannon to close the door on their story. And we'll open the door on pondering possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted? Averted and Guido, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?

Well, there are two more official appearances of the Land of Cancelled Heroes, and we will go into some detail on those. And then I actually do have a few other tidbits about places this land might show up that are very surprising. So we're going to stay in our land of Canceled Heroes and see where it's taken us. And then we can talk a little bit about our love of canceled heroes.

Yes. So first up is Silver Sable and the Wild Pack, issue number 35 from April 1995. And it's actually the backup story in that issue, lil Sylvie.

And that's written by Gregory Wright, penciled by Stephen Butler, inked by Pam UK and colored by Mike Rockowitz, lettered by Steve Duterte and edited by Craig Anderson.

And then we have Deadpool, issue number 34 from November 1999. And that is chapter ten, verse one, sending in the Clowns, written by Christopher.

Priest, pencils by Paco Diaz, inked by Rodney Ramos, colored by Shannon Blanchard, lettered by Richard Stark's, comic Craft and edited by Ruben Diaz. So, uh, these are, of course, eleven and 15 years later, we have these visits to the land of canceled heroes in Silver Sable and the Wild Pack. As you mentioned, it's a backup with Lil Sylvia, who's like a cartoonish version of Silversable, who ends up going to the land of canceled heroes and having to fight the spirit of canceled comics.

Who'S like a giant devil, kind of a little bit like Night on Bald.

Mountain, though it turns out that that's fake. And in fact, it's a tiny little corporate suit with a mustache and white.

Hair, little Stan esque, who in the.

End, or it looks a little Mark esque, I'd say it does.

It definitely looks like kind of the two of them together a little bit. Yeah.

So in this story and then I'll get into who's in it. In this story, we have her arriving and fighting this battle because, um, her title has gone down the tubes. And I love that they send her there in a tube and she says, I hate visual metaphors. Very cute moment. So she gathers the, uh, league of Liberated Leading Ladies, who are all canceled women in tight costumes, hot women who would run you through for drooling according to the script here, who then battle this spirit. And they get him to convert to the businessman version. But it turns out that he was canceling Silver Sable because she refused to wear this really skimpy outfit mhm that he wanted her to wear. And so therefore, it was going to be canceled. And she says that one day she'll be back to get revenge. And she wants a video game, a feature film, television show, t shirt, poster, lunchboxes, theme park, and a balloon in the Thanksgiving Day parade. And that's the end of this cute visit to the land of canceled heroes. So in this land we have the wild Pack, little Sylvia Acroyear blackbolt Black Panther Brother Voodoo Devil Dinosaur iron Fist kazar phantom Rider Powerman rawhide Kid league of the Liberated Leading Ladies includes Dazzler, miss Marvel Red, sonia Scarletic Shana, Sheehlk Spiderwoman We have a cameo from Mickey Mouse. We have tombstones in the graveyard for titles like Nomad and Tomb of Dracula and what the kid cult? The whole entire new Universe, which has an atom bomb explosion on the graveyard, which is great and Night Stalker. So lots of in jokes here to not just canceled characters, but canceled titles and things that we haven't seen in a while. So did you enjoy little Sylvie's visit to the land of canceled heroes?

Yeah, it's very much in the tone of shows like Animaniacs and Freakazoid. And I was seeing animaniacs premiered a couple of years before this. So it's got that kind of wacky tone even when she references, as you said, the visual gag that felt very much of that style of humor where we're kind of going to spell it out and even the animation or the art, which is definitely this more cartoonish look.

Yeah. And it's also like, what the it's funny that what the is on tombstone there, because all the what the titles have the cartoony Fred Hembeck esque art. Fred Hembeck usually did parts of them. And this is a fun play on that. I don't know anything about the Silver Sable and the Wild Pack title, of course, nor is any knowledge required to read this, but it's fun to see her and all of these women who've been cancelled. And I like the slight commentary. It's not the strongest, sharpest commentary, but the slight commentary on the sexism of comics, uh, with the corporate person saying we have to keep female characters in their places. It's funny.

Yeah. And I think when you look at the characters that you mentioned that are featured here and then even go back to the Kzar issue as well, I think it is striking when you look at the number of non white characters or female characters, maybe more so in this case. But going back there to that, where you have Death Lock and Shang Shi and Goliath and all these other well.

Especially it's eleven years later and a lot of these people are still canceled, right. Brother Voodoo and Miss Marvel and Spider Woman, like, they have had nothing in eleven years at a minimum. So that is also shocking. And you're right, it is disproportionately women and non white men.

Even the line about there's a fun joke about Dazzler being replaced in the X Men by a child, and it's jubilee there, and Dazzler saying, well, this goes coming back. But even that, you can even read into it as being a bit of commentary. And Dazzler was representing the young, the hip and okay, but now she's aged out, we got to put in the younger one. There's even a little bit in that, as you said, they don't kind of go too deep into it, but it's definitely there.

Yeah. Rwanda said, uh, she got canceled because she ended up married to Vision, so there was nothing left for her.

And that is something we hear all the time when characters, queer characters or female characters marry off and then, oh, they don't have anything to do anymore. They kind of put them, uh, into the background. So it's definitely there.

Yeah. So another clever visit. And I also just I think it's funny. I wish I knew if Gregory Wright had read the Kzar, was a fan of the Kzar, or maybe someone told him about it. It's just funny to think that this one time appearance of this concept, eleven years later makes another appearance.

Well, you mentioned that the character, the corporate character might look a bit like Mark Gruenwald. And Mark does have a very random, oblique method shout out, shout out where it's on the credits page where everyone else has their credits listed of what they actually did. And then it just says, mark Ruinwald really does like cheese. I don't know what that is. I don't know if it's cheese in terms of humor or cheese the actual food, but maybe knowing that Mark was the person who knew all of this stuff and knew all things metaverse omniverse, maybe he gets that credit because he brought the world of canceled heroes to Greg Wright.

Could be. And then, let's see, four years later, we end up in this Deadpool issue. So this is an interesting one because what's happening here is that the issue prior is Joe Kelly's last issue on Deadpool. Joe Kelly is the voice of deadpool. He is really who can be credited for Deadpool's meta fourth wall breaking voice. He starts it in his writing, which is the first ongoing that Deadpool has. This is then the continuation of that series taken over by Christopher Priest. Christopher Priest, of course, here is very cleverly making a joke about the fact that he's brought in two series and then they always get canceled. So he's always brought into a sinking ship. Now, the setup is really fun because first of all, we have a few great jokes right off the bat, like the mailman calling Wade Slade, which is a great joke because of course, he's based on Slade Wilson Deathstroke, the terminator, and he's Wade Wilson. Then he calls him Blade or Mark Wade. So lots of jokes here as Deadpool is then carrying the letters bag of everything that made the book work and every story idea Joe Kelly had. And he throws it into a swamp and then comes upon the League of Canceled Heroes who are playing poker, most of whom are Christopher Priest or Christopher Priest wearing a mask, pretending to be a character that Christopher Priest drew. And I'll name all those characters in just a moment. And, uh, Deadpool refuses to participate in this, resists it, decides that he's going to go dive into the swamp, get this bag, save this series, not be canceled. And that actually then has him coming up into a laboratory, which kicks off the actual 6116 story that's playing out here. And then that's it. That's the last reference to this land of canceled heroes, land of canceled comics in Deadpool. It's just that sort of prologue. Now, in this land with him, we have Iron. Fist, Luke Cage, kzar Zabu, Moon Knight, Black Panther, DC Comics steel The Ray Hawkeman Green Lantern and acclaimed comics Solar and Vincent Van Goat. And all of these are with the exception of Kzar, who needs to be there because he's sort of the king of these are Christopher Priest written books. So that's why it's fun that you see characters pulling their mask off and they're all Christopher Priest. And it's great self deprecating humor, but also, again, a little bit of meta humor about his books getting canceled and who these characters are. And he brings in, of course, these other companies so that our land of Canceled Heroes becomes an omniversal nexus point, if you will. So, did you enjoy reading this?

Yeah, and I liked it even more. This is something that actually benefits from doing a little research after the fact because I wasn't sure I didn't know that at first. When we see three of the people sitting around and one's dressed as Black Panther, one's as Steel, and one not quite sure 100% who it is then, but he's wearing, uh, a mask or has a mask pulled up, and they're all Christopher Priests. So I love that he is commenting on his own career through this as well.

Yeah, it is really fun, clever stuff that's going on in this intro. Good start to taking over a, uh, meta fourth wall breaking title. And it's fun to see different characters, different companies coming together and have this idea explored, which I'll get more into in just a moment. Anything else about this deadpool entry in our Earth 709 League of Canceled Heroes visit?

No. I'm really curious to see what was the background with this. How did they know about our League of Canceled Heroes? It's only four years after the Silver Sable, but even then it seemed like such an obscure thing that people were latching on to. So it's fun that it's kept going. Pretty reality.

Well, and in a moment we can talk about if we think it can continue. But the last thing I want to add is that this is, I think, and this would be a very Mark Gruenwald thing to do, as he did in his Zine Omniverse, which is map out how fictional reality could occupy the same omniverse. And in this case, clearly, Christopher Priest is getting at this idea that everyone's heroes would be in the same place, they'd end up in the same limbo. And there's been a few other appearances of this. So arguably in Animal Man 25, which is Grant Morrison's run, which is incredibly meta, animal man ends up in a limbo that's sort of chauffeurred by Merryman and Mary man takes him through where all of these stories go when they're ending or being canceled or not being used. And then that, of course, leads him to meet Grant Morrison. And then there's an entire issue where he's having a conversation with Grant Morrison, the writer so really interesting stuff there. There's also, for DC, Brian Azarello's, Doctor 13, which gathers up a whole bunch of canceled and underused DC characters, and they all come together to fight the architects, who are all of the DC writers. And then I also found online that there's this really cool reference in the very little known first comics published, grim Jack by John Ostrander. John Ostrander, co creator of Suicide Squad. So he's not little known, but this title is. So in Grimjack, there's a whole backup story where there's a character who ends up in heaven, and he finds all the characters who were killed by DC's crisis. So you have, like, supergirl floating around, and you have Flash, and then you also encounter Electra and Jean Gray and Kzar in a courtroom, all arguing to get restored and get pulled out of limbo. And we find out that limbo is sometimes also just a hiatus, and you can't get pulled out of it. So it's fun that multiple creators have used this concept before. And it's fun to imagine that it could truly be one shared space where all of these characters who are not.

Being used go, yeah, I think it could definitely be a comic onto itself where exploring a way to uncance these heroes is to follow them in the cancelled world and what are they doing there? And maybe there's a threat to the canceled world, someone who wants to cancel them forever. Delete this limbo. It feels like a really fun meta, uh, fourth wall thing, that we could bring back some of these obscure characters and yet at the same time, keep them outside of mainstream continuity in whatever.

Yeah, I think that's the part that's the part that I think would be fun. Because when I think of the concept, I agree. I would love to read that. And I think of books like Mark Russell's One Star Squadron from last year, where he's gathering sort of the, uh, delist heroes and saying, like, well, what are these people doing? What are they up to? And comes up with a really fun story of that. But it's taking place in universe. And Marvel's done that plenty of times too, with underused characters.

Yeah. I think two weeks ago in DC, we read about some of the kind of forgotten youth heroes of the 90s, like Dark Claw am I getting his name right? Dark Wing? No. Dark.

Dark Hawk.

Dark Hawk. There we go. Dark Hawk. Some members of the new warriors. And they were kind of all coming back. So, uh, that was kind of a fun thing to revisit yeah.

In marvel.

Not in, uh, marvel.

Um yeah. And so I think what would be fun, though, about what you just said and what this alternate universe does is it gives you a little bit of freedom. A to not tell stories that are in Earth Six One Six or Earth Prime in DC, but B, also to play, like to tell some funny kooky meta story. Uh I don't know what but you can have all sorts of things playing out with creators being involved, which both comics companies have done a lot of the time, told meta stories where creators are characters in them. But I think it could be really fun and I would love to see it. And there are a few people on this list. Unless you count miniseries. If you count miniseries, then I think at this point, DC has resurrected almost everyone who we saw in these three appearances of League. I mean, Marvel has resurrected almost everyone we saw at some point. But there's a few like Kill Raven, he makes an appearance in Avengers Forever, but he's never had a title of his own since the 70s into the then Chris Are same thing hasn't come back. So it would be fun to find the people who really have been stuck there for 30 years now. Some of them are like rights issues. It's not clear that Marvel entirely owns the rights to Kristar, but some of.

Them are bringing some of the characters back and have their old form there. So I think it's in the Silver Sable one where Luke Cage is making fun of the fact that he's wearing his old outfit. Like you have characters in kind of their outdated version as well. Or maybe a character. I'm thinking in DC world where some of those old characters like Hawk Man or Dr. Fate have been many different people over time. Well, then you just visit like the Kent Nelson dr. Fate, who's living in this limbo because maybe the Doctor Fate currently is someone else in the mainstream continuity. So it's a fun way to even characters that are still active, you could pull in alternate versions of them that might have been put aside.

Yeah. It's also interesting, before we get into some of our favorite canceled characters that we'd like to see, I was thinking about the fact that all of these companies at this point are giant IP farms, as we know with MCU and the DCU. So doing something like what you just said would help because it would bring the characters back into rotation. People would know who they are and then they could mine them for all sorts of stories. I think it's interesting that there are characters who are just unused because why not use them? You only have the potential to develop a fan base, to develop good stories, to develop profit. You only have the potential for all of those things by bringing them back in mhm.

And in some cases, maybe you'll have a character like the Guardians of the Galaxy that are not the super mainstream characters, and then they find this huge new audience. So you never know which character is going to take off.

Yeah. Slowly through this world of miniseries that both publishers have been in for the last few years now. I do think they're getting to every character. Like I said, even someone like Omega the Unknown, who barely anyone knows. Steven Orlando wrote a, uh, tiny, um, little Return of but we haven't seen any more. So I think they will ultimately get through them, but not in some of the clever ways that these writers we saw today did. And I wish that would change. So who are some characters that have been canceled that you would like to see back? I actually have an answer for you. I don't know for myself.

Uh.

I think that you probably forgot to say Terror, Inc. Oh, yes.

That would be a great canceled character. Yes. Terrain.

And that's the name of the character is Terror Ink. I know it's the name of the title of the comic, but is he just Terror or is he Terror Ink trading card?

It was terror, inc. Though he might just be known as Terror. I'm not 100% sure. But yeah, he's made from body parts and he's got this metal hand that has his old memories in them. That would be a great character I'd love to bring back. Yeah, I think a lot of those characters I'd have to think from back to the, uh, was also thinking and maybe they do exist in I know they've been brought back in various comic forms over the years, but I'm also thinking characters not from the two big publishers, but from the pulp world. Characters like the Phantom, as in the Leigh folk Phantom, or the Shadow who has come back, I know, or even Dick Tracy, who I know has had comics. But those kind of characters I think would be fun because I think a lot of people of our generation and certainly younger have no idea who those characters are. They've they've really faded away. And bringing them back into a comic form because probably a movie would be way too expensive. Nobody wants to see a movie for a character maybe they've not heard of. But a comic would probably be a much more economical way to bring those characters back.

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Um, for me this is hard to answer because there's been characters who've lost their main titles, but you see them in other things. So I'd even put someone like Dazzler in that category. Now, Dazzler has been under used for sure, but I don't see her as someone who's living in a limbo right now, as opposed to someone like an Aquarius. Aquarius in Marvel is living in limbo. He hasn't been heard from. No one's thought about him. There's a few characters like that, a lot of whom I haven't even heard of. I mean, you and I love going through the official handbooks or the who's who's. And it's in there that you really find these characters where you're like, oh, that person is definitely in the land of canceled heroes.

Mhm.

So I know there's a few kooky ones from those books that would be great to resurrect, who have just strange powers and are completely forgotten. But I had a hard time thinking of people who are totally invisible today. Who was going to be your answer other than Tyrank?

I was going to say the pulp heroes. But then I'm also thinking back to some of the JSA characters, like the original Adam, who has no superpowers, he's just a short guy who's a good athlete or I love the original Sandman, the Wesley Dodd Sandman. And I know those characters have come back kind of periodically, but for the most part, I don't think at least that Adam is the main Adam these days. I don't even know where he exists. But it would be fun to kind of have those characters resurrected again in some kind of alternate universe where they don't have to disrupt the mainstream continuity.

Well, it's the same we saw when we looked at the golden age heroes of pre Marvel, like the timely Atlas heroes. Because, again, I don't see them as living in limbo, because there have been a few titles. There's been two agents of Atlas titles where they've had Quasar and even Venus and 3d man and some of those early characters. And so I don't see them as being totally forgotten, but it would be fun to see them back, and it would definitely be fun to see them all tied together somewhere. I mean, I'm just scrolling through the official handbook, and there's characters like Angar, the Screamer. I'm just flipping through. There's so many who just would make who I'm sure the right writer would have a ton of fun telling stories about these characters that have barely an appearance in the Marvel or DC universe and have a lot of potential to be played with.

Yeah, I think Villains especially I was just trying to think of heroes, but I think villains, there's so many that you could pull from and even stuff like Hatemonger. I don't know if he's been used in a long time, but it's like, oh, that would be an interesting character to do something with in 2023.

Yes, that one. I think you've even mentioned that before. So yes, he's not in limbo, though. He's definitely been around, I'd say, a few times, so well, then that's especially.

Villains is even trickier because I think it's easier to maybe pop them into an issue as being a one off batty. And maybe the heroes, you might feel like you have to develop a little bit more. As you said, some of these characters, like Dazzler, have been around, but underutilized. And of course, the villains, for the most part, are not getting their own books. So I think it is different when you're dealing with some of these heroes, like we've both been mostly talking about today.

Yeah. So tell us who you think should be resurrected from the land of canceled heroes. Or who should have a story told in the Land of Canceled Heroes about them. I'm sure there are lots of characters out there that people are ready to see or ready to see together with their fellow canceled friends. Even Kazar had a miniseries a few years ago that was great. But he is nowhere, so he's still king of the Canceled Heroes. I say he's still down there ruling over them.

I'd love to see him back. Going from some of the other Kzar books that we've read, there's actually a lot of humor and a lot of potential there. So I think maybe he leads the.

Revolution for the League of Canceled Heroes. For the Land of Canceled Heroes. I look forward to that story one day. So that is a wrap on our visit to the Land of Canceled Heroes. Dear Watchers, thank you for listening. I have been ghetto.

I have been rob, and this entire episode was just in your head inside a snow globe.

The reading list is in the show notes. You can follow us on all social media dear Watchers, where we want to know what canceled heroes you want to.

See, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcast. We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.

In the meantime, keep pondering the possibilities.