Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

>> Rob: An, omniversal comic book podcast that does a deep dive into the multiverse. What is.

>> Guido: Dear watchers, I see what you did there. It's jeopardy. And we are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your jeopardy. Game show hosts on this journey are me, Guido, and me, M Rob.

>> Rob: And before we begin our trip to the jungle, to the jungle, what's new in our little section of the multiverse? Guido.

>> Guido: Well, our last episode was so much fun if you didn't listen to it because you were avoiding Deadpool and Wolverine. Spoilers. Hopefully you've seen the movie. Now go back and listen to it with our special guest, Elliot of Elliot comic art. We're seeing the movie a second time just very soon after we're recording this, and it was so much fun to explore, and it seems like people are loving it as much as we did. So go back and listen to our last episode.

>> Rob: And I avoided spoilers beforehand, so hopefully other people also got that same experience because it's so hard to get clean. Really avoid spoilers.

>> Guido: Yeah, well, hopefully. Hopefully they're getting better with that, just as an, industry, to the extent possible. Just less leaks and more control, which is nice as a fan of stories. Speaking of stories, my book, queer mythology, coming out in October, has my first book event in person in Brooklyn in New York October 6. And there's a few more already in process being scheduled. So look for some events in October when the book releases, which I'm so excited about. And then the last thing I'm really excited about is, should be the most exciting thing for us because it's our third anniversary of our show. Three years. Three years. Yay. And Elliot drew us, surprise art that we posted and he posted. So find us on social media watchers and you can see the art he drew. Find time on social media at Elliot comic art with two l's, one t, but three years for 140 hours? My gosh.

>> Rob: Yeah. I was just scrolling through Instagram and suddenly it was like, wait a second, that's us.

>> Guido: That's us.

>> Rob: Because he didn't even tell us. I just found it in real time with everybody else.

>> Guido: It was very fun and, yeah, it's been fun. Did you imagine we'd be here three years later?

>> Rob: Yeah, I think so. I think so.

>> Guido: Neither of us had, like, really clear designs on this project when we started, so I think we'll, we had, decided we were just gonna do it because we wanted to do it and it was fun, and we're gonna keep doing it because it's fun.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: But our structure has stayed the same remarkably since the beginning.

>> Rob: Yes. And switching to every other week, which we did a while back, definitely, I think, also helped our sanity. I think if we tried to keep doing it every week, maybe we would have gone, oh, gosh, this is a little too much.

>> Guido: Well, we both have lots of other creative projects in the works. And that's the fun thing about, doing this work, is it's opened up new opportunities. That's why we had to go to every other week. But we're really excited that we've been doing it for three years. 140 plus episodes. We had some bonus episodes there for a while, and, we're not going anywhere.

>> Rob: Mm And if you're joining us for the first time, well, where have you been for the last three years? That's my question. And speaking of three, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse, origins of the story, exploring multiversity and pondering possibilities. So thanks for coming along, and remember.

>> Guido: To leave us a five star review wherever you're listening to us, and find us on social media. Dear Watchers.

>> Rob: And with that, dear Watchers, welcome to episode 140, and let's check out what's happening in the omniverse with our travel today's alternate universe. Today we are becoming one with nature to answer the question, is that right?

>> Guido: I don't know.

>> Rob: Sure. Yeah. What if Wolverine teams up with Khazar, Shayna, and Namor to save endangered species from, ironically, the conservator, which is also.

>> Guido: Like, definitely a lawyer who manages people's wills, you know, like in probate court, you hear about the conservator. So it's kind of funny that there's a villain in the conservator that has absolutely nothing to do with that aspect of being a conservator. But it's just funny. So this world that we're exploring today, we're breaking our own rules, kind of, over three years and over 140 hours of content, we've really not broken our rules. Our rule being that we start with something about the prime canon and the origin of the story. The second segment, we go into some sort of twist on it, an alternate universe or multiverse, or some sort of crash or clash or mash up. And then we go into what's next, what's in the future, what we want, or what story was written after. But apparently this core story that we're focusing on today is a 616 story, meaning the prime Marvel comic canon. But we don't buy it, so we're covering it as an alternate universe. If one day we're proven wrong, if there's a sequel or somehow mainstream 616 comics refer to this, or the conservator shows up again, we look forward to being told that we were wrong, but we're treating it as another earth for today. And, as far as our background with Wolverine on the show, there have been a whole bunch of episodes that have included him sort of on the side, because, of course, we've covered X Men lots and lots of times, but he was not a focal point for us until episode 135, just a few months back, when we explore the gay Wolverine of another universe. And in that episode, we look at the 600 and Sixteen's, Wolverine's first appearance for the first time. So if you didn't catch 135, you can hear us talk about his first appearance in Hulk there.

>> Rob: Yes, but, like, let's talk a little bit more about our backgrounds with Wolverine, because we've touched on this in the past. But, Guido, you, of course, are the ultimate X Mendez fan. So where does Wolverine land for you in your fandom?

>> Guido: Well, and I'm sure I mentioned this on 135, I frankly don't remember, so you might be hearing it again. But as a. Yeah, as an X Men collector, WolVerine was always in my orbit. And while I don't love him in the way that a real WOlVerine fan loves him, I also don't dislike him. So I have bought lots of his title over the years, read lots of his titles over the years, and in particular, when my fandom increased and when my own personal income increased as I was like a teenager and moving beyond allowances, I would buy Wolverine's title and every miniseries because it was tied into the X Men. So I had to have it. So I have consumed almost all the wolverine that's out there to consume, and I. I'm fine with him. I don't love him. I don't dislike him. He's right middle of the road, I guess, for me. And, of course, I've consumed every multimedia iteration of him. And this comic that we read today, I know we both consumed, so we'll get into that. But in terms of Wolverine, remind our listeners your background on the character.

>> Rob: I think a bit of the same as you, where it's a little bit middle of the road. He wasn't a character I gravitated to all the time, but he also wasn't a character I avoided, so I liked him. So much of my understanding of the character, and even when I was just reading today's issue, I hear it in the voice of Cal Dodd from the animated series. I can't help but do that. And I even mentioned on our last episode covering Deadpool and Wolverine, that I never really loved Hugh Jackman's Wolverine, even though I get it, he's a really good. It's a good performance. But, he wasn't my Wolverine. And I think that's just because Khaldod's voice is just so ingrained in my brain that because Hugh wasn't. That he wasn't Wolverine to me.

>> Guido: Well, and this issue has, a lot of the. I could hear the lines coming out of Khaldi's mouth, even though this actually predates the animated series. But there's something about this issue, and we'll get into it, of course, that I can totally hear that too. Well.

>> Rob: Throw on your loincloth and grab your claws. It's ready for origins of the story. Right now, on this very show, you're gonna get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago. So for this segment, we actually aren't going to cover a story. What? Oh, no. But let's actually cover Wolverine and team up, since it's our main issue, has him teaming up with a whole bunch of amazing Marvel characters.

>> Guido: So from randoms, but from randoms.

>> Rob: Well, maybe not so random. I don't know. We'll discuss. But from his very first debut, Wolverine was a social character, which is ironic because his story becomes so much about him being that loner guy.

>> Guido: It is funny that, like, he's always with other people and known for those team ups or mashups or even, fights. But, yeah, is also, like, the man who wants to be left alone. Like that sort of western cowboy guy.

>> Rob: Yeah, because really, in his opening debut, you think of him paired up with the Incredible Hulk, and then that obviously is followed by him joining the X Men in their big, major reboot. But, Guido, can you tell us about his other team ups?

>> Guido: Yeah. Oh, there are a lot, but let's give a little history here. So, of course, there's the title Marvel team up, which predates Wolverine's first appearance. It starts in 71 or 72, and is really a title for Spider man team up season every issue. So it's not until 1980, two's number 117, that Wolverine shows up for his one appearance in that volume. They did have Wolverine in the Marvel team up annual in 1976 with the whole new Giant size X team. But Wolverine's first solo team up with Spidey is not till 82. And so, aside from the fact that he debuted in someone else's title, then, of course, had his most famous appearances be part of a team, 1982 is his first solo title. It's a mini series, and it's not until 88 that he gets his ongoing. Neither of those actually feature too many team ups. They do have a constant cast of supporting and guest characters and lots of antagonists, both familiar and new. So at this point, though, Wolverine's star is rising in the mid eighties, and he's crossing over into a lot of books, and Marvel Comics presents essentially becomes a vehicle for Wolverine. Some of the stories are solo expanding on his origin, but others feature him teaming up with Havoc, Hulk, Ghost Rider, Cable, Nightcrawler, Typhoid Mary, Venom, Black Widow, and Doc Sampson. You know, these, these, like, anthology spotlight books always pull in, like, d list folks that no one even remembers, which is.

>> Rob: I'm not going to say any of.

>> Guido: Those are d list Doc Sampson. Come on.

>> Rob: Not a d list. I'm going to put him at high.

>> Guido: C, low b. I don't know.

>> Rob: I, don't know typhoid Mary in the same level, I'd say. Right. And then the rest of them are kind of a list.

>> Guido: The rest of them are major. Yeah. Anyway, but he, that's not all, because he has so many miniseries, one shots, tie in team up books. I would venture a guess he probably has the most miniseries of any character in the Marvel universe. Maybe Spider man has more. But Spider man has always had his flagship anchor books, and usually at least two. So I don't think he's had as many minis as Wolverine. So his first major team up series predates even having an ongoing. And that's the Wolverine and Kitty Pryde miniseries from 1984. Then in 86, he has a one shot team up with Spider man in 88. So same year as his launch, he has a title, a mini series with havoc. 93 gets a mini with Punisher 95, very famous, very good foil. Covers team, up book with Gambitan, with Venom. And then since 96, we've had team up books or one shots mini series with the thing, Iron Fist, Electra, Hulk Dupe, Spider Man, Captain America, Black Cat, the Agents of Atlas, Power Pack, Jubilee, Hercules, Quentin Choir, Nick Fury, Alpha Flight, Deadpool, Boom, boom. Yes, boom, boom, Blade, and most recently, Predator. Although that's a versus book, so it's not quite a team up. So a lot of people.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: Who are getting, sometimes getting like, above the title, credits. because basically, exactly. I mean, there's so many team ups. Why does this character have so many team ups? I guess just because he's giving them a bump. I think that's one reason, truly.

>> Rob: Actually, that's the commercial reason. But I think the artistic reason is I think he's just got the perfect personality to fit with all these other characters. Like, I'm thinking, like, he plays well off of Scott Summers because WOlverine's rule breaker, ANd Scott follows the rules. He plays off a well, well off of DeadpooL because WOlverine's more serious and Deadpool's Funny. Like, in this book, he can play off of NAmor because they both can take themselves a Little too seriously.

>> Guido: Yeah, they're both like, grumpy people.

>> Rob: Yeah, yeah. So you can put him into all these different scenarios, and I think different elements of his personality can come out. Like, sometimes he's probably the funny one, like with Scott, he's the Funny one and Scott's the SErious one, but with Deadpool, he's the Serious one and Deadpool is the Funny one. So there's a lot of flexibility there. What, what do you think?

>> Guido: Yeah, I think that's a good point. I guess in part it's, and I feel like we've talked about this sort of paradox where because he's a remarkably consistent and clear character, it actually makes him quite versatile.

>> Guido: And so I think that makes a lot of sense. I do think a lot of it is commercial, though. I mean, when you look at this roster of people he's teamed up with, like, no, one wanted to read a dupe book before Wolverine was in it. And I know Dupe has lots of fans and he's a very funny little character. But, you know, power pack is a good example. Boom boom is so random. And then when you go back even into like, Marvel Comics presents the havoc and doing a havoc miniseries, like, that's just, it's all just a little where you're like, this is weird. Why did this happen? I think the only ones that make a ton of sense are kitty Pryde, which is great and totally Retcon's origin stuff and is a lasting impact. And then people like Punisher and Gambit and venom, these characters make a ton of sense. But beyond that, I think he's teamed up with almost everyone.

>> Rob: Yeah, there's something you said power pack and KIttY PrIde, and then of course, in the movies as well, they've paired him with a kid. And even in the comic, I mean, even in the animated series, HIm and Jubilee are often paired together. So there's SOMEThinG AbouT, yeah, there's something about putting WOlverine WiTH a child or a younger character that, that there's a lot of diamond dynamics there to play off.

>> Guido: Yeah, well, he can be the, like, reluctant, gruff father figure who has a heart but is, does not want to be around kids or having to take care of people. So I think it's fun. Well, while we're talking about team ups, what's your fantasy team up that you want to see? What's a team up book? LEt's stay realistic. So let's stay in Marvel. What's a team up book you want to see with Wolverine?

>> Rob: Oh, the one I was just going to say, see, he's teamed up with so many people. The one I was going to say very few left is actually in the list. I just missed his name before, but I was going to say Nick Fury.

>> Guido: Because they even has a graphic novel and a follow up series. There's a good chunk of that. But why do you, why do you want to see it even though you haven't read it?

>> Rob: Well, because I think they, they both, that would be one of those times where they have similar personalities versus, like, a Scott and Logan kind of thing, where sometimes, like, when you put the two characters have similar personalities together, there's going to be a lot of tension. And maybe Nick was, you could retcon it, too, that Nick was involved in Project X or something like that. Right? Like that he was tied to Wolverine's origin story, maybe. I don't know. There's a lot of possibilities there.

>> Guido: Yeah, there's lots of spycraft, and Wolverine's origin has lots of spy stuff. So, yeah, that does happen. That's, that's an interesting one.

>> Rob: What about you? What do you think?

>> Guido: It's hard for me to decide because I've read all these books and I've read all the team books where he gets lots of interactions. What I'd say is, my two favorite X Men characters are Rogue and Gambit. We've seen Wolverine and Gambit, and I think, and I, think Rogue would be really interesting. You see them interact a lot as teammates, but we've never pulled the two of them out. Generally, a team up miniseries book, that's what it's doing. It's pulling the characters out and putting them somewhere else so they'll go off and have to solve this crime, or they both get stuck somewhere together or something like that. And I think that'd be really fun with Rogue, because I think Rogue's tough, no nonsense edge and sarcasm would work really well. The two of them clearly love each other deeply, are two very close characters that have never had a romantic interaction, and I would not want to see that. I appreciate that they're totally platonic, but are very close. And so I.

>> Rob: Well, there's almost something about the touch too, right? Like, Rogue can't touch people, and Wolverine can touch people, but he's got the claws, so it's almost doesn't want to be touched. Right. Yeah. So there is something interesting there. Like, he can keep you at bay because he has the claw. She wants to be touched, but she can touch you. So there is an interesting dynamic there.

>> Guido: To explore and her southernness. And he's not obviously from the southern United States, but he has that sort of gruffy, edgy country feel that you get. And so I think the two of them would be really fun for a, good mini series.

>> Rob: And the other character we didn't mention is Sabretooth, because Wolverine is one of those superheroes who has such a definitive.

>> Guido: Yeah. Although they have really not teamed up. Now, there's a few books where you get to see them team up, for stupid reasons, of course, like comics. And then in the past, you get to see the history when they, with Maverick, were secret agents. But there are not team up books for Wolverine and Sabretooth. I actually looked thoroughly to make sure I wasn't forgetting something. But no, they really are always in antagonism with each other. So that's why.

>> Rob: But that would be interesting.

>> Guido: Name him.

>> Rob: Since Sabretooth really is just evil Wolverine. So, like, having them actually have to pair up for whatever reason and seeing.

>> Guido: Yeah, Sabretooth has been on the X Men before, so it's happened, but it has again. Yeah. It's not been a mini series solo book, so that would be a possibility. Yeah. So lots of fun team ups. Some of those we're gonna cover at some point, because some of them actually get pulled into the what if titles, especially around Spider man. There's a what if that has to do with their relationship. So we will explore some of these team ups again in the future.

>> Rob: Oh, Guido just disappeared. Oh. I think he's been teleported to some mysterious island somewhere. Okay. So it's time to explore some multiversity.

>> Guido: I am your guide through these vast new realities.

>> Rob: Follow me and ponder the question, what if? And today we are discussing Wolverine. Global jeopardy. Number one from Marvel comics. It's actually, though, entitled the heart of animals. I totally missed that title.

>> Guido: In there, taken from the quote, there's an opening quote that. That's taken from.

>> Rob: Oh, yes. Mm And that cover date is December, 1993. Our question, of course, is what if Wolverine teams up with Khazar Shayna? Is it Khazar and Shanna? Who knows? And namor? Or is it Namor to save endangered species from, ironically, the conservatory.

>> Guido: The conservatory. All right, so this book is written by Peter David, penciled by Richard Howell, inked by Bill Anderson, colored by Richard Howell, lettered by Steve Dutrow, and edited by Glenn Hurtling. So at this point, writer Peter David, had his first story in Spider man in 1985. It was bought by the editor at that point, although he was not working so much in the writing of comics, he was brought in through sales by Carol Kalish, who you'll hear about again in just a moment, as she is quite key to this issue. He gets a handful more spideys, to see the light of day before being given the Hulk title in 1987. That starts a twelve year legendary run. At the time, he'd written some novels, especially some licensed tie ins and some Sci-Fi stuff in his own universe, and a few random single issues for DC in the late eighties, early nineties. After this, 1993, of course, he goes on to tons of famous runs, including Spider man, she Hulk, Supergirl, Young justice, tons of Star Trek comics, and my favorite for Marvel, X Factor, the longest run on X Factor, and a really, really kooky run on X Factor. So that's Peter Richard Howell at this point, is, he, or prior to this, was partnered to Carol Kalish. Again, more in a minute. The two of them co edited some magazines, and in 1982, he starts some work at Marvel. Then in 83, DC, he does some co plotting and what's called producing of books, but also draws. He draws and does the co plotting on Hawkman and vision in Scarlet Witch, as well as a bunch of single issues from things like Marvel Fanfare and what if. And the same year that this book is out, he relaunched Vampirella and co founds, the Claypool comics company, best known by me and many people, for the 150 plus issue run of Elvira, mistress of the Dark, which he wrote and drew also. So very cool work that Richard has done. We'll get back to Carl Kalish in just a moment, but let's give a synopsis of this book, since it's. It is digital, which is unusual for a book like this, but most people probably have not read it, or if they did, they read it in 1993 and don't remember it well.

>> Rob: I'm gonna spoil the whole thing here, so watch out. But Wolverine, Namor, Khazar and Shayna each witness rare animals disappearing before their eyes. Their investigation brings them to discover that a being known only as the conservator has been whisking the animals away to his island. Castillo. Castillo, who knows? To keep them safe, he imprisons the heroes. But Zabu calls devil dinosaur in to free them all.

>> Guido: Because he's multilingual. I love that.

>> Rob: Yes, he's multilingual.

>> Guido: Zabu is multilingual amongst animals.

>> Rob: So Shayna explains to the conservator that they are all on the same side, and he would be better off helping the animals fight for their place in the world than hiding them away. So the conservator partners with the WWF, the World Wildlife Fund, to make his island a sanctuary for animals. And then the book ends with our heroes prepared to stop a poaching, only to discover it is a documentary crew instead. And they all have a nice laugh.

>> Guido: Yeah, because the people are saying they're gonna shoot the animals, but of course, that's with a camera. puntastic.

>> Rob: Yes, yes. And we should also mention that every few pages, there are also.

>> Guido: No. Every right page of the book.

>> Rob: Every right page, yes.

>> Guido: Yeah.

>> Rob: There are photos and also bite sized facts about different endangered animals that are, for the most part, featured in those pages. And it also ends with some tips to help the environment.

>> Guido: And before we dig into that story, for those who don't know this issue, there are three important background things to know. So number one, it has an embossed cover. So that's important because that's what everyone sort of remembers. I don't even know. We'll have to ask Tencent takes. And Mike, who loves gag, gimmick books. Like, is this the first embossed cover? I doubt it. It's 1993. I'm sure there's been embossed, but for some reason, this one stood out in at least both our minds. I think most people remember this cover really well. Why?

>> Rob: Yeah, I do remember well, but I guess because it was so rare that having that cardstock and the boss and, you know, it's also because it's all black with, like, stars, and then the heroes really pop in it. So there's so much that Richard Howell actually does with color throughout this book that really stated my memory. And I think it starts with the COVID with that stark.

>> Guido: And the logo is embossed too, which.

>> Guido: Yeah, I guess just because there's something tactile about the embossed. I mean, it's just weird because, like, I guess at a certain angle it looks cool, but I think it's more about the tactile part of it. So it's just interesting that embossing was, like, a thing to get people to buy books and stands out in our minds. And I. It hasn't come back. We're in an age where they're redoing gimmick books. Like, there's been tons of foil covers. There's been a few, like, scratch and sniff or glow in the dark covers. There are the die cut covers. But I don't think embossed has really made a return just yet. So maybe it will, but I know we'll talk.

>> Rob: Oh, I was gonna say too, I know we'll talk more about PSA books as well, but for the most part, they seemed so superfluous, like, oh, they were, they were cheaply made. Right? I think because this had this fancy cover, it made this, like, pristine. Yeah. For me as a little kid, it was like, ooh, this is fancy.

>> Guido: Even though this one was totally a prestige book. I agree. And so on, it being a PSA book, of course. Public service announcement. This book was apparently produced with the one and only WWF, though. World Wildlife Fund. Oh, yeah, the wrestling Federation. At the time, those of us who were kids in the eighties and nineties thought there were two WWF, but, the WWF that protects animals. Put the kibosh on that at some point. They were founded in 1961 and are still to this day, the largest conservation organization in the world. Now, we could not find a whole lot about what this meant, that it was a co production produced in cooperation, is the language on the title. The signs of this are, of course, the photos that Rob mentioned. There is a synopsis of the organization's work on the inside cover and a few tips at the back that are like, real typical environmental movement greenwashing in the nineties. Like, turn off the lights when you leave a room and you'll save the world. but it's not clear if there was any sort of profit sharing or anything like that that was happening or what else the arrangement was, and we couldn't find that information. We will talk more about PSA books in a few minutes in our next segment. so I'm going to share the third and final thing about this book that everyone should know, which is a little bit about its genesis. The book seems to exist for Carol Kalish, so the person we referred to was the Marvel sales department lead, who is credited with creating, essentially, the direct market of comics. There's lots of really cool anecdotes you can find online. There is some, pushback. There's actually some controversy about her. It's interesting, but let's disregard that, because I'm sure misogyny plays a role in that. and she is clearly someone who had a role, if not led, in comic books, being able to be actual thriving businesses. And she would visit the stores, she would help them figure out how to order comics, how many to order, how to deal with their cash flow. She did a project where Marvel bought cash registers for all the local shops, and that was. And they were subsidized. And really interesting stuff she was doing, obviously, on behalf of Marvel as a company, that may have, led to the destruction of the direct market eventually. Ultimately. But her work seems to have really been committed to helping comic books thrive. She also got comics into bookstores for the first time. So really, she is remarkable in all of that. And sadly, died quite young at age 36 in 1991. She had hired Peter David, giving him his start, and he wrote a very long eulogy in comic book resources, or one comic book interview, one of the comic book magazines, and was partnered to Richard Howell for many years. They worked together and lived together. So that and the company they actually.

>> Rob: Worked for before Marvel, I saw, then eventually became diamond. So even before joining Marvel, she was so keyed into what would become the direct market. Like she was doing it before.

>> Guido: Yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting to see that side of things, and especially being so young that she was able to have such an impact. So at the back of the book, there is also a dedication to her from Terry Stewart, then president of Marvel Entertainment. And he doesn't really talk about why the book exists, and it's still not totally clear why. Like, did she love the WWF or was the timing just that it worked out that way? But the fact that Peter David, and Richard Howell are both on the book says to me that it had to have something to do with Carol Kalish. But they don't make it crystal clear. Like, again, why it's the WWF and Carol Kalish. The only thing that is clear, other than Peter and Richard, is that Carol Kalish loved devil dinosaur since she was a child. And of course, as you mentioned, devil dinosaur came swooping in and saved them. So clearly, the story was created with this memory of Carol in mind. But the WWF link is still a little mysterious out there, so unknown. Yeah. So let's dig into the story, the book. What, what it. What did you think rereading it?

>> Rob: Well, this was a book that was seared in my memory. I don't know why it's one of those random books, but there's something about this book. It must be the embossed cover, but it really just stood out for me as a book because I didn't, like, love any of these characters. They weren't, like, my favorites.

>> Guido: But did you love endangered species? Like, this is. I mean, I'm a little older than you, but I remember, like, there was that mail order fundraising thing you'd do at school, and you would, They. They always would sell shirts with different endangered species on them.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: Is that where, like, the wolf shirts started? Species? I think so, like, we think of.

>> Rob: The nineties, and we think of those, like, corny painted wolf shirts and stuff like that.

>> Guido: So some of that might be why this resonated with you so much. Just all the animal stuff.

>> Rob: It was out there, too, because, of course, I was a big captain planet fan. And there was something also, I guess, like you said, greenwashing. It was such. So in Vogue in this time, in the nineties, like, everywhere you went. And I remember just even on Sesame street or later, other animated shows, always doing some environmental stuff. Ferngully, the last rainforest. I love that animated thing, too. So it was just. It was in the ether. So maybe that's why I did gravitate to it. I don't really know, but I. Everything from the COVID to even reading the pages, and it's just stayed in my memory. So it was very fun going back to reread this so many years later.

>> Guido: Well, it also has. I mean, I love Peter David. I'm a big Peter David fan. We got to meet Peter David a few times at different cons. He's always willing to share great stories, and, I love his writing. And it's here, like, everything that's good about him. He took this very simple book that is quite short for a comic because every other page is the endangered species. So it's a very brief comic. Not interested in background, not interested in character. Clearly, that's not the purpose of it. And yet he gave the character so much life. And their dialogue is funny and witty. There's these great moments where Wolverine makes fun of, namor for being the only person that's wearing less than Khazar wears.

>> Rob: I love that joke.

>> Guido: And then you commented, right after reading it, you commented about Shayna and the great sort of meta moment where she. Where they start fighting. Or, Namor and Wolverine start fighting. And she calls it obligatory. as if that story device in comic books, superhero books, is obligatory, and it's true. So it just has that. That Peter David essence in it, even though it's not a quintessential Peter David book. And I think that makes it stick.

>> Rob: Yeah. Shayna, especially has some really good lines. There's one earlier where they think they hear a. Well, it is a gunshot, but she says something about, like, a car backfiring. And, of course, they live in, like, the middle of the jungle. And Khazar says, like, shayna, you're so ridiculous that she has a lot of. And she kind of is the one who swoops in at the end of the day, too. Maybe knowing that this was dedicated to Carol, he wanted to give a little extra emphasis to the female character in the book.

>> Guido: Yeah, with the exception that Richard Howell draws the most absurd outfit ever on China. I mean, it is like, it is the inspiration for the Jennifer Lopez Grammys dress. There is no doubt in my mind, because how she is keeping this bathing suit that only exists basically on her left and right side and does not exist down the center of her body. How it's even like, staying up is beyond any law of physics. So other than the absurd outfit and the fact that she gets hit in the head with a rock and taken out of the story kind of early on, I agree with you that she has the best dialogue.

>> Rob: Well, but on that note, too, the men are very scantily clad, as is that joke as well, maybe as a boy, even as it being, like, a PSA, about, like, saving. Saving the planet, it was still. It's like, oh, here's all these, like, hunky guys running around, too.

>> Guido: Yeah, Wolverine looks ridiculous because he is with just three half naked people.

>> Rob: For sure he is.

>> Guido: And it is so silly. Now, you love villains, and the conservator has never shown up ever again. Do you want the conservator to be an ongoing villain? he's also sort of just a copy of a few existing villains, like the collector. And then you pointed out, he looks like the stranger.

>> Rob: He looks like the stranger. And then there's this weird little joke where Shayna is reading the Stranger by Albert Camuse. So I was thinking, oh, that must be like, why is she reading this book?

>> Guido: I didn't. I don't know. It is so weird to me because it's not even the quote at the beginning, which is some weird 1628 dedication to King Charles. The quote that inspires the title, which is the heart of animals is the foundation of their life, the sovereign of everything within them, the son of their microcosm. But, like, she could have been reading that, whatever that came from.

>> Rob: Yeah. And isn't it like the ultimate book about existentialism, which this is like the least existential story as well?

>> Guido: It's kind of, yeah, I think he's definitely writing like Kezar as the bimbo, kind of, you know, in a stereotypical situation. she's the smart one. She's the one who gets on the computer to call the, like the essentially stand in for the WWF director that she knows. She's the one who's wearing her glasses and reading a book. Like, she definitely is supposed to be the clever one of these two, for sure.

>> Rob: Totally.

>> Guido: And the deep one of these two, I suspect, too.

>> Rob: Yeah. but the conservator basically is like an amalgam of all those. What are they? The elders of the universe. He looks exactly like the collector. I looked it up because I couldn't remember exactly what the collector looked like in comics. And even the color scheme where like these magenta with the white hair, it's exactly the same colors. Even. So, I guess they couldn't use the collector because he was a pre existing character.

>> Guido: Well, and I don't know. That's what's weird. Like, that's what's sort of weird about this book is who cares if it's supposed to exist in continuity? But then it seemed like, were they trying to have it fit into continuity? I, don't know. I know lots of people have sort of gotten stuck on the fact that Khazar and Shayna were almost never in Africa, and yet for some reason the caption box has them in Africa here. So there's like mistakes in continuity. Well, one piece I read, why not use the collector for this? Would you have to explain his motivation more or you don't want him to be a hero at the end? I don't know.

>> Rob: One piece on that I read online, just a speculation, I guess, was maybe because this book, being that it was together with the WWF and was going out to a wider audience, they didn't want to just like confuse people with what the savage land was. So they just said Africa. That was the stipulation I had seen.

>> Guido: Yeah. And that might be why it's not the collector or the stranger or something.

>> Rob: They didn't want to just throw in.

>> Guido: But of course they're not. Like most people don't know Khazar and Shayna and or anymore at this point. So it's. The title of the book is even wolverine in global jeopardy. But as we pointed out when we were reading it, it's very evenly split amongst the three core character groups. So it's, it's, yeah. Not clear why they made up the conservator and why he never made another appearance, but. Yeah, but it's,

>> Rob: Yeah, I would be interesting if they tried. I guess the, the issue is if you make him out into an out and out villain, he does just become the high evolutionary or the collector or they're all those other characters that.

>> Guido: Right. That's what I mean.

>> Rob: Collectively redeemable. He has to redeem.

>> Guido: He's motivated by protecting, he has to be motivated by protecting animals. He's just doing it the wrong way. And on, that, like, it's. I don't get what Peter David's reacting to. It's sort of a weird message. Like, there's so much speech ifying at the end about, like, hiding and running solves nothing. And if you really cared about animals, you'd be out there educating people. And it's, what's weird about that is like, I don't think anyone was actually doing this right. Like, usually when you get, a social issue, heavy handedness like that, it's to say, like, no, no, it's better to be out there and fight and blah, blah, blah. Ah, but in this case, she's like, don't hide the animals. People need to know about them. And it's like, well, were people hiding animals? Like, what is he reacting? And I guess its not that. I guess he's trying to say, go out there and raise awareness and fight for animals, but he's doing it through the lens of this character. It just sort of reads weird because I'm like, is he saying people are out there, like, hiding animals and shouldn't be? I don't know what's. I don't know what that is.

>> Rob: Yeah, you could read it. If you really read into it, I guess you could read like an anti zoo argument.

>> Guido: I would know where the WWF possibly it, which, which I am definitely anti zoo, so I would be fully supportive of. But maybe they didn't want to let them do that because they would offend.

>> Rob: People or especially for kids, where a lot of kids go to zoos, so they didn't want to say, like, don't go to zoos kids. But I would have to think the WWF, I mean, it's the World Wildlife Fund. Like, wildlife not zoos. So maybe that was kind of a subtle way to introduce that idea.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure, but it's. It's fun. It's worth revisiting. It's fun. It's sort of meaningless and throwaway, but, But I like it.

>> Rob: And, yeah, like you said, there's lots of good dialogue. Nabor, he has a lot of fun with. With his pomposity, and there's those puns. Like, it. The fact that it ends on this kind of punny joke. And I think Richard Howell's art is. I was saying to you, before we started recording, like, I think, or even going back to the COVID just the art stands out at me. There's something about the colors, which he also did here, that just really, they're super bright colors. Like, it's not faded at all. It almost reminds me of, like, when, like, the all reds work on comics and everything is, like, super bright and articulate in that way. It is.

>> Guido: And. And I pointed out to you, too, it is very silver aged. But the other thing that might be happening here is it's printed on glossy paper, which also might be part of why it felt like a prestige book. And so that probably preserved the color really well because it's very silver age looking. But unlike those which were printed on newsprint, where the colors would fade fast, this is on glossy. And so I think that helps it pop.

>> Rob: Yeah, definitely worth.

>> Guido: So do you want a, sequel to this story? Do you want Wolverine in global jeopardy. Two? Wolverine in double jeopardy.

>> Rob: Well, that would be a great title, of course. Well, I think the interesting thing is that it is ripe for a sequel, because now we're really seeing the effects of climate change far more than we were in 1993. So I think doing, like, a book like this today would actually be very smart. And wolverine as a character who is connected to the earth and also a character who's been around, like, in HIS. His own life for hundreds of years, so he's seen the way that the earth has shifted. Like, that's actually a really good character to tell a climate change story through. So I think it would be less about, like, tearing down the rainforest, which I'm sure is still happening and isn't a big issue, and maybe something more about climate change and pollution as a whole.

>> Guido: That would be so interesting. But let's. So let's move into our third segment, because we're going to talk about if that could exist today or not.

>> Rob: Yes. So let us ponder some possibilities. Will the future you describe, be averted.

>> Guido: Diverted.

>> Rob: Averted. So, Guido, what are we talking about for pondering possibilities?

>> Guido: Well, let's talk about the PSA comic aspect of this, the public service announcement aspect. And we're not going to do a history of public service announcement comics. Our friends at Tencent takes often go down the rabbit hole of where these things come from, and they have a great history, and they're heroes for hope X Men benefit book episode. So go check that out. But there are countless PSA books that we also love collecting. I love collecting, like Captain America meets the asthma monster and Spider man stopping child abuse, storm stopping drug use. And it's really a fun area of comics to collect, but it does seem to have gone out of vogue. They're definitely not as common. And I'm wondering why, and, like, could it work for them to come back? Why don't they come back? Why isn't there a wolverine in double jeopardy partnering with, if not the World Wildlife Fund, than some other climate crisis organization or even the Un or something like that? So what are you thinking about that?

>> Rob: Well, and for us, people who grew up in the eighties or nineties, it was just so common. Not just in comic book form, but on so many animated programs, he man and GI Joe always ended with their psas. And then even when a show didn't have that, it had the moral element into the storyline as well. So I think we were just so accustomed to it. And maybe that's one of the reasons why this book stood out to me, is it didn't seem like, oh, that's like, that's so rare. That's so special. I was just so used to it. And I wonder if a younger generation is not used to that now.

>> Guido: And on tv, of course, that was all through regulation, which has everything deregulated, so it doesn't exist anymore in comics, though. I don't think it was ever regulatory that they were doing that. I think it was probably these groups realizing comics are a medium to get to kids. And so, hey, let's partner with Marvel or DC to send this message. And so either a government agency or a, non governmental organization like the WWF would probably pay in most cases. Again, I don't know how this worked, but pay for that or arrange that or something. And so, yeah, maybe it was happening, though, because what you're saying is, culturally, children's entertainment had more of that in it, but I think it was coming about for a different reason, and I just don't know why it doesn't persist. Part of me wants to imagine now it's the controversy of it. No one, these are all now big corporate conglomerates. Of course, DC was under Warner Brothers at the time, but the world has changed a lot. And I don't know, maybe they would just be worried about who they're partnering with or what it means. I mean, there's also, there's the totally neutral ones that could be done today. Like, there's all those car safety ones. There's Supergirl. And the seatbelt one we have. That's a fun one. So though that was done actually with Honda. so there's still ones that could be done today that seem not controversial. I don't think anyone's gonna care if Supergirl released an issue telling people to wear seatbelts, although someone probably would.

>> Rob: Actually, I was just gonna say, I think maybe they're concerned is like, there's nothing not controversial and there's nothing neutral. Because I was thinking, like, oh, you could do something on anti smoking. And then it's like, ah, the woke comics telling our children nothing what to and not to smoke.

>> Guido: Smoking actually could be one of the few safe ones because I think most people would agree it's okay to tell children not to smoke. But, yeah, you're right. Like, even seatbelts are certainly like nutrition. People would be like, oh, you're infringing upon our freedom by having this comic book come out. so I don't know why they.

>> Rob: Don'T do them unless they think. Also, there's ways, there's other ways to get these messages out that aren't through comics. So organizations are like, oh, kids aren't reading comics. So, and better do it on YouTube or TikTok or something that he's actually gonna target. I mean, I guess that would be a question. And I don't know. Like, are a lot of kids even reading comics in general? Like, would a PSA get through to that audience? Or is it m more like people in their thirties that are reading comics?

>> Guido: Well, we need, well, I'm not in my thirties, but people in their thirties need social messages too.

>> Rob: They do, they do, they do. But not like this. This kind of social storytelling.

>> Guido: Yeah, but, well, you're making me realize, too, there are actually social issue comics. One, they're usually driven by story. So of course there's plenty of comics that are biographical or memoir or telling a history. Those are becoming more and more increasingly popular, usually indie publishers. But you're also reminding me just a few years ago with Kelly, Sue DeConnick was one of the bigger names but a bunch of great people committed to it. There was that anthology book that the New York City Department of Education did, which was all comic book stories, again, about real life heroes, but they self published it. And that's interesting. I wonder. So there are some public agencies, nonprofits, awareness organizations that want to use comics, and yet at least the big two are not entering into these partnerships anymore. So I don't know. There is something in that, I think.

>> Rob: And DC's pride book touches sometimes on some, I wouldn't say PSA, but kind of social issues.

>> Guido: No. And social issues should be present in stories and shouldn't always feel relegated to PSA books for, 10,000%. Sure, I stand behind that. But yeah, I'm thinking about a book that is just blatantly out there to deliver one, to raise awareness about one issue. And there were AIDS awareness books in the early nineties. Those don't exist and the big two never did a dedicated AIDS awareness book. Of course there's like Peter David's Hulk, which has an AIDS awareness issue. but they, yeah, ah, I can't, I can't think of dedicated PSA books recently.

>> Rob: What, what issue do you think? Like if a comic did pick it up, what issue would you want to see them cover?

>> Guido: Any, I just want it, honestly, I just want it to exist. I'd be totally behind a, here's, how to cross the street safely book just as much as I'd be behind, AIDS awareness book. or I mean, there's the very famous pages. I actually had them hanging on my office wall for many years of the pro immigration superman pages that were done. Those were PSA pages that were published in other books back in the fifties and they were all about like being welcoming to people coming to the country. So, I'd take anything because I think generally, these are oriented around making people healthier or making the world a better, more inclusive place. And so I'm always in agreement with those messages.

>> Rob: Yeah, it would be interesting to partner characters with a topic. Like, I'm thinking going back to climate change could like storm, Storm makes sense to do something with climate change if it's a medical issue. Do you put like Doctor Strange because he's a medical doctor? Like it could be fun to find.

>> Guido: Series of them or, or an anthology book or something.

>> Rob: Mm. Yeah, I love to see an anthology book that takes a character that like specializes in something and then put them.

>> Guido: Have Doctor strange and Doctors without Borders and.

>> Rob: Yeah, that would be great. Yeah. I love that. Mm

>> Guido: Yeah.

>> Rob: And technology or something like that.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah. He can be with the electronic frontier foundation, and. Yeah, it would be really cool, but I have a feeling it's the corporate entities will not make partnerships with these organizations that, yeah, they do in other ways. Of course. Sometimes they have their, like, charitable giving arms or whatever that, thing is, but I have a feeling that with the IP, they don't want to, like, go down that road, which is very annoying. So I don't think we're gonna see Wolverine in double jeopardy anytime soon.

>> Rob: It's the. It's the sequel to Deadpool and Wolverine. Well, yeah, an adaptation of this comic, a cause movie.

>> Guido: Those always do. Well. Well, that is, a wrap. Deer watchers, go out there and save an animal, but make sure you share it with the world and don't keep it to yourself. And thank you for listening. I have been your host of this episode of Jeopardy. Guido.

>> Rob: And I have been rob, reminding you to always spay and neuter your pets.

>> Guido: The reading list is in the show notes. Find, us online at Dearwatchers, especially on threads and Instagram, and leave us.

>> Rob: A five star review wherever you listen. We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse.

>> Guido: In the meantime, keep pondering the possibilities.