Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

>> Rob: Happy Pride month, bub. And welcome to dear watchers at Omniversal comic book podcast, where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

>> Guido: We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey are me. I'm the best there is at what I do, Guido. And what I do is very nice.

>> Rob: Oh, and I'm Rob, and I'm the best at what I do. And what I do is fabulous.

>> Guido: Did you really, did you pre plan that in your mind or did you kind of.

>> Rob: I did. I did.

>> Guido: Oh, my gosh. So we both thought the same thing. Look at that.

>> Rob: Huh? But mine m had a touch.

>> Guido: It's like we're wolverine and Hercules.

>> Rob: Before we begin our trip into Loganverse today, Guido, what's new in our little section of the multiverse?

>> Guido: Well, it's Pride month. This is our pride month episode. I've been waiting for us to cover this character, and I knew it was a heavy lift of a read, but when we had a little more time than usual in preparation for this episode, and it was coming out this first Monday of Pride month 2024, it felt like the right time.

>> Rob: I love it.

>> Guido: And also, Comic Con season is almost upon us.

>> Rob: Oh, wow.

>> Guido: San Diego is just a month away. There's a whole season, you know. Come on. New York is the end of the season. Ah.

>> Rob: okay.

>> Guido: San Diego is the start of the season. Aye. Aye.

>> Rob: Gosh, you're really looking ahead because it's not quite October yet. It's not even.

>> Guido: No, I mean, we will get our badges. We should hear about our pro application within the next few days. So any moment now, we should find out about New York. But no, it's full on Comic Con season, so that's exciting. And the last thing I'll say that's new. I never am self promoting, ever. but I feel like I should. It's Pride month, so I have a book that we've mentioned before, but maybe not too explicitly. You can find it on my social media or dear watchers social media, because I posted about it for Pride Month, because it's a good time to pre order queer mythology. It's epic legends from around the world. I retell 20 ancient queer myths. It's coming out October 1, so in time for New York Comic Con or holiday gift giving or LGBTQ History month or just for the fall. So go ahead and pre order anything.

>> Rob: One of the stories that you cover in your book, also featured in today's reading as well.

>> Guido: I didn't even think of that connection. And yes, Hercules is in one of the stories, and so there is definitely a connection to today's episode. Look at that. How fitting.

>> Rob: And you can buy it on RuPaul's bookstore, which is a queer own bookstore for a queer author.

>> Guido: Yeah, it got added to Allstora, which was really fun, but it's also available anywhere and everywhere that you buy books. So please. That would be great. It has an incredible, incredible artist, James Fenner, who I'm excited for people to see everything that's inside it.

>> Rob: And if you are seeing us for the first time or hearing us, I guess we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today. Origins of the story, exploring multiversity and pondering possibilities. So thanks for coming along.

>> Guido: And remember, we want you to find us on social media, mostly threads, sometimes blue sky, always instagram at Dear Watchers and leave a review, a five star review, wherever you're listening.

>> Rob: And with that, dear Watchers, welcome to episode 135. And let's check out what's happening in the omniverse with our travels to today's alternate universe. And today, we grow out our mud and chops. To answer the question, what if Wolverine was gay?

>> Guido: What a simple question. And, we've got a pretty complex answer here. Yes, that's true, because in our reading today, there's actually a whole bunch of earths. Really, it's a multiversal story, to the millionth degree. And we'll, talk about all those earths that we get to see. But our focus is on the Wolverine of Earth, twelve zero two five, also known as Howlett. The Earth itself is actually only seen barely in flashback, though. This character is in about 20 issues, and we read every single one of his appearances from, 2011 to 2013. So, again, today is Marvel Earth 12,025. But it's a whole multiversal mashup that we are going to be diving into.

>> Rob: And before we do that, let's talk background with the character of Wolverine. I think he's a pretty popular character. Am I right?

>> Guido: Maybe some of our listeners have heard of Wolverine. Let us know if you have in our social media.

>> Rob: And, Guidozo, what is your background with this character? We've talked a lot about the X Men, but never, never really dived into Wolverine specifically.

>> Guido: Yeah. so, as our listeners, regular listeners, know, I'm a huge X Men fan. That's been my longest running comic obsession over four decades. So Wolverine is a key part of that. I don't I don't know what else to say. I consume everything. Wolverine. Because he's a key part of X Men. So I read the Wolverine title in the late eighties through the nineties, when I was reading in the two thousands, I didn't read every Wolverine solo title. Cause I was, like, paring back on books a bit. So while I still read X Men, I did let Wolverine go a bit, but the last ten years, I've read it all. So I'm very well versed in Wolverine. because I'm a huge X Men fan. I'd say in terms of my fondness for Wolverine, I'm totally middle of the road. I don't have strong feelings either way. I have loved some runs of his books because really cool people like Larry Hama did really nineties insane things. And that was fun to read at different times. But I don't love the character. But I also. There's nothing I dislike about the character either. I'm really, truly middle of the road, but know a whole lot about him. How about you?

>> Rob: Well, like most of the X Men that we've discussed on the show, I really got to know him through the animated series. And really, that, that portrayal on that show, that is, to me, it is Wolverine. It is that voice. Even just reading all the comics today, I just like that is the voice of Wolverine that I hear. So it was mainly through that and then through the video games. We talked a lot about some X Men video games on a past episode, and WOLVErIne AnD SCott are really the characters that pop up in pretty much every. Every X Men video game. And I know Wolverine also had his own solo video games as well. So it was more through that than through the comics that I really got to know.

>> Guido: Yeah. Because if I had to guess, you probably never read a Wolverine solo.

>> Rob: No, I don't think I did. I read gay.

>> Guido: What's interesting is. Yeah, what's interesting is he has some Kooky villains, which is a thing that you like, but, for whatever reason, you must just never have realized that and never bought those issues. But no, and I think it's the issues you were reading that we have in our attic of, like, random Spider man and Stuff are always based on villains, and they're all right around, like, 94, 95, 96. And that's when he had some just weird villains and weird stuff happening. But it Also might have felt impenetrable.

>> Rob: Yeah. The other thing, I think with Wolverine as a kid, at least I thought, and maybe this was through the animated series, and then other. Other things, but it felt like it leaned more into kind of the melodrama and, like, the soap opera angles of it for me, where it was about, like, his. All of his lost loves and things like that, and I kind of wanted more of the wacky villain. So now, knowing that maybe I would go back and check those out, that it's. That it's more geared towards that and a little bit, like, less like, oh, samurais and things like that. And I never really gravitated too much to that world.

>> Guido: Yeah, that's definitely the Claremont era of Wolverine. But once you get into the Q bird and the Hama era of wolverine, it's different. So, yeah, I think there's a lot there to enjoy.

>> Rob: Well, we're going to, emerge from our LIQUID chamBer, rip off those various wires in our big HELMET, and Head into origins of the story. Right now, on this VERY SHow, you're gonna get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years.

>> Guido: Ago, so let's do some background on Wolverine, both as a character and his creation. It's not gonna be exhaustive, because there's just not time, and we assume most people know most things about him. We did read his first appearance because, as you mentioned, while we've covered so many X Men stories, including Age of Apocalypse, which features a lot of Wolverine, we have not focused in on the character, and there are a good number of what ifs, and alternate universe versions, but this is our first one focused on him.

>> Rob: Well, this is his very, very abbreviated character backstory. James Logan Howlett, aka Wolverine, the world's most famous Canadian superhero, was, so.

>> Guido: Mean to alpha flight.

>> Rob: Oh, well, I think VIndicator is. We'll accept it. Puck.

>> Guido: Everybody knows PUck.

>> Rob: Yeah, he was actually born in the late 19th century, so he looks very good for his age. His powers include animal LIke senses, superhuman strength, a rapid healing ability, and, of course, his trademark claws. Logan's past is a tapestry of military service, secret government experiments, and personal loss. He was kidnapped, mind wiped, mind controlled, and had adamantium, indestructible metal bound to his skeleton. And that was actually introduced in the Avengers five years earlier as Ultron's shell. Fun fact. Despite his surly exterior, Logan found his new chosen family in the X Men, and his origin story has been retconned a lot. So we won't go all into it right here, but includes such villains as Sabretooth, Mister Sinister, and the canadian government.

>> Guido: And ties to Deadpool, which is why they're in a movie together.

>> Rob: Exactly. And there are countless alternate versions that have been depicted over the 50 years. This is his birthday year, so happy 50th birthday, Logan. And we're gonna feature some of those in future episodes.

>> Guido: Yes, we will. And so on his creation, he first appeared in the last panel of the incredible Hulk, number 180, before being featured in Hulk 181, which we'll get to in just a moment. That's 74. He's created by Len Wein, drawn by Herb Trimp. But apparently that character design is helped by art director at the time, John Romita Sr. Who did his costume. We also have Roy Thomas, who was editor, who has since claimed co creator credit, gets into the real murky territory of who creates and certainly who owns these characters. But Wolverine has had a lot of cooks, in the kitchen, if you will, because it's really a brief time later that he's then featured in giant sized X Men, brought right into the X Men, which is, of course, when curse Claremont takes over with Dave Cockrum doing art. John Byrne, who's doing art and writing at times, also advocates for him as a fellow canadian. Apparently. Frank Miller, of course, then in the eighties, collaborates with Claremont on the miniseries. That really sets a lot of his origin that had not been set yet at the time. And his catchphrase of, I'm the best there is at what I do, but what I do is very nice. And then there's even later years in the nineties, Barry Windsor Smith does just a gorgeous Marvel Comics presentation story that gives you all the weapon x backstory that had never been gone into in terms of the grafting adamantium onto his skeleton.

>> Rob: And he co created adamantium as a thing back in 1969. Barry Richard, Barry Smith. So, yeah, and then.

>> Guido: And then the stuff about him being James Howlett and living from the 18 hundreds, which is probably the stuff most people don't know. Yeah, I did it because it didn't happen till 2001. And so it's in the two thousands Wolverine, the origin series that Joe Quesada, Paul Jenkins, and Bill Jemis are retconning and giving that origin for the first time ever. So there's a lot of people who've contributed to Wolverine as we know him. And, just a quick mention, because our whole premise today, and the premise of this character, is Wolverine's queerness, I thought we should give some background on 616, Logan's queerness. His son is, of course, openly bisexual queer, Dachan. But for Logan himself, we have lots of the homoerotic stuff with Scott Summers, which even gets translated well into the movies for sure, there's some flirting between James Marsden and Hugh Jackman, I have no doubt. And then the Krakoa era polyamory with Gene and Scott. And there are many people who do a queer reading of his and Nightcrawler's relationship, which, of course, is really solidified by Asad Ribik's, cover in the two thousands of Wolverine looking at a naked Nightcrawler. so there is a lot to appreciate, about the possibilities of Wolverine's character and his identity. But nothing has ever been confirmed for the 616 version.

>> Rob: And in terms of other media, we can't really give a complete history of him in other media, because, as we said, there is a lot. He's definitely the most popular X Men character, bar none. Asked someone on the street to name an X Men X Man, and I'm sure it's gonna be Wolverine. He's been in countless tv shows, movies, always played by Hugh Jackman there, video games, and basically whatever else you can imagine. I even have a jacket with him on the back of it. But let's get into his comic book origin or not really even origin, but first appearance, at least a very. I think this is a real cheap book, right? Very easy to pick up anywhere in a dollar bin somewhere. And that book is, of course, incredible Hulk number 181 from Marvel Comics, November, 1974, entitled, of course, and now the.

>> Guido: Wolverine, written by Ilan Wein, pencilled by Herb Trimp, inked by Jack Abel, colored by Glynis Weine, lettered by Artie Simek, edited by Roy Thomas. And so his debut up against Hulk, he's been sent by the canadian government to confront Hulk. Hulk is fighting Wendigo. So that adds a little bit of a, let's team up against hem dynamic. But then they continue fighting. So this was your first read?

>> Rob: Yes. I have never read.

>> Guido: Was he the Wolverine you know and love?

>> Rob: Not quite. Yes and no. I mean, I think, like, as you were saying earlier, there's so many cooks, and this is, I think, a character that makes so much sense for kind of getting rid of the idea of creators, because while those three, or now four, I guess, people all lend so much to this very first appearance, there's so many aspects of the character, including the name Logan, that weren't added until years later. So I think, yes, I can see some elements of the character here, but the way he speaks, especially for me, like, he uses a lot of big words, which is not something I think of Wolverine using. But what I will say.

>> Guido: What I will say, though, is he has the sort of gruffness. Yes. It's not quite sarcasm, because I don't think sarcasm is in comics yet, in the sense, seventies. But, you know, his first line in this issue, of course, he shows up on the final panel. The previous is, if you freaks want to tangle with someone, like, why not try your luck against me? And that's very Wolverine. Right? So, like, there is an aspect to the character that's here. And, you know, he calls Hulk Sunny, for some reason. I guess that's him being a little sassy Gruff. So there are pieces of him that I think are here for sure.

>> Rob: That very first line, I was like, oh, my gosh. They really did get his, his way of speaking right away. And then it kind of goes away a little bit throughout the rest of the issue. He almost had, even though it says he's canadian, it almost had, like, an english reflection or something. Like, even like, the sunny that you just mentioned or something like that. It seemed a little bit more high society then we definitely, it might just.

>> Guido: Be, the Bronze Age voice, too. But I see what you mean. At one point, he says the Wendigo is weakening. He's bigger than the Hulk, but he's not nearly as impregnable. Like, why that word, like, it really doesn't make sense. Yeah. So it's fun. I mean, you've also got the important character traits, physical, character traits of him. even though at this point, it's not even clear yet that the claws are part of him or not, or.

>> Rob: The healing factor isn't really ever mentioned, retconned onto him.

>> Guido: But what you have is that he's short and tough and agile. You have all of those elements. Probably because there was a possibility they were going to make his origin that he was part Wolverine. Literally. No. So I think that's probably why they were drawing him that way a bit. But it, it, it's consistent. Even though people, of course, complain that hugh Jackman doesn't quite represent it. He does say he's five five. I don't know. Is that short? I'm not sure.

>> Rob: Well, I'm five six, and I would say I'm short. Okay, so he's. I agree.

>> Guido: So, okay, so he's short. Yeah. At one point, he tells Hulk he's five five. And I was like, okay, we actually know how tall he is.

>> Rob: Yeah. And they do mention the adamantium. So that does get in there. We do get the, they do call him weapon x as well. And there's that x in there. And they also call him a mutant, which they didn't have to do, because, like, he. They just could have called him, like, a super soldier or something like that. But I would think between calling him a mutant and calling him weapon x, they must have already had some plan to put him as part of the X Men, do you think? I couldn't really find something online about that. Do you think that's true?

>> Guido: Probably because giant size is really not that long after this. Lenwine, of course, wrote that. So I'm sure, I don't know that that was the motivating factor in his creation, but certainly, I'm sure that was the plan, because also, if giant size was being written at the time, which it almost certainly had to be, then I would imagine because of the international, element of giant size x Men, then it makes sense that, of course, he's introducing this canadian, just a few months earlier in this book, and then gonna use him again, you.

>> Rob: Know, and this is a weird fact, but just in 1975, in the very first sketch, in the very first episode of Saturday Night Live, they keep saying the word Wolverine over and over again, of course, a show created by another Canadian. So maybe 75. He had just been in, like, giant size x Men. They were like, wolverine. That's a good word. And he's canadian, too. I don't know.

>> Guido: Well, what is interesting, when you look at his history, which, again, we're not even going into all of these possible origins that were, at, play and all of that. What is fascinating, though, is he was popular immediately. It's not a character who grew over time, I'd even say. And we just spent time a few episodes ago on Deadpool. Deadpool. I don't think. While I think Deadpool was popular early, I don't think he was mega popular the moment he hit. Whereas Wolverine. It seems like you and I weren't around reading comics in 1974, but it seems like from everything you do read, that he was really popular, that he just stuck. And, I don't know if it's the design or the characterization, or it's probably everything put together, as it generally is with these kinds of moments and, things that hit the zeitgeist, but it does feel like he really hit right away.

>> Rob: Yeah, I think the fact that they then put him on this other revamped team, it was almost like a backdoor pilot, too, in that way, because when they introduced all these new characters, like Nightcrawler and Storm, to the X Men, who you had never seen before, it was like oh, at least I have seen, well, Dedicated Readers, I should say, at least had seen this one character of Wolverine in a previous episode, previous issue, and then so together, who you'd already knew, it was like, oh, okay, this isn't a completely new thing for me.

>> Guido: It's funny you say that, because, of course, throughout the history of comics, of Marvel Comics, it is almost a joke. Put Wolverine on the COVID when the book is in need of sales. Like, Wolverine is the character who will just show up and boost sales, particularly in the nineties when he is so popular. He would just show up and be in books that even if he didn't have a natural tie, you just drop them in a book, and all of a sudden it's like, okay, this book is selling now, and so Wolverine is definitely deployed.

>> Rob: We'll talk about it later. But that's almost what they're doing in the movies now, too. Oh, okay. Like MCU's flamingo. Put Wolverine back in it. Okay, there it is. Thank you.

>> Guido: Bring Hugh Jackman out of cryogenesis.

>> Rob: We need him back, which, by looking at him, he has been in cryogenesis. Well, we have about 50 other books to cover, so why don't we jump into our exploring multiversity? I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if? Okay, so we've got lots of issues to cover today for our multiverses. Those span from April 20, eleven to June 2013, and they are astonishing X Men hash, 44 to 47, with our focal issues being extreme X Men number one to 13, and then extermination one to two for the extermination crossover. And if you want more, extermination crossover, that includes astonishing X Men 60 61 and age of apocalypse 14. Of course, all of these million books are out to answer the question, what if Wolverine was gay?

>> Guido: Indeed. And so these books have a ton of creators. Sorry to all of them. We're not going to list everyone who worked on all of those books, since our focus is on this character of Howlett. This character is created by Greg Pack and Mike McCone, though most of him is developed in Pac's Extreme X Men series, which features art from a bunch of folks, but primarily Steven Segovia. And then the concluding arc of that. This extermination crossover pulls in these other books. So it has Marjorie Liu and David Latham doing co writing on the books. But let's assume Greg Pak primarily is creating Howlett with Mike McCone and Steven Segovia. So Pac, at this point, has done a ton of Marvel work through to today. In fact, he did the Phoenix End Song and Warsong miniseries. Most famous, I think, think probably for Planet Hulk and World War Hulk, a lot of which was adapted into the Thor films. He did a Hercules series in 2009, so prior to this, he had already written the Marvel Hercules character, which was with Fred van Lente. And if memory serves, as the series that made the 616 circulates canonically. Bi and Pac actually said Howlett is his favorite character to write in all of these mashup team folks, palette and dazzler. So we can see why he did everything he was doing over these three years. Pac has also done some DC and indie work, but really is a Marvel writer through to now. Then the artist on, Howlett's first appearance in Astonishing X Men is Mike McCone. He's a british artist who's done mostly DC work, a good amount of Marvel, including Exiles. So funny little tidbit there, since the Exiles are, of course, a team of different multiversal characters hopping from multiverse to multiverse that predates this series. And Steven Segovia, who does the art on the Extreme X Men series featuring Howlett, is a filipino artist who's done work for top cow and dynamite, DC and some Marvel, and is still working through to, literally, this month's new releases. So good creative team here. Greg Pak really leading the way on this character. So why don't we get a brief summary of the arc? again, the astonishing issues are one storyline that introduces him, and then he gets pulled into the extreme X Men title, and that's what leads into that culminating crossover.

>> Rob: Well, as you said, here's a very brief summary. We meet a few characters, including Howlett, our queer Wolverine, who were pulled over by an evil Xavier known as Savior, which includes our 616, Cyclops.

>> Guido: And that name is great. I actually didn't even realize it until you just said it out loud.

>> Rob: Savior Xavier.

>> Guido: That is real clever. Nice. This is the Greg Pac writing that I love. I'm a big fan.

>> Rob: Well, that team finds out Xavier's world needs to pull heroes from other worlds to use a sacrificial batteries to maintain their world. And so this exiles style band of multiversal heroes fights the corrupt Xavier, who also has dozens of Xavier severed heads at his disposal. Yeah, in jars, to try and save the world. Of course, they defeat him, and our Cyclops jumps back to the 616 after helping them. And over in another title by the same writers, a few months later, we discover that the multiversal band of heroes teleported and saved the entire world from destruction.

>> Guido: That other world. Yeah.

>> Rob: Yes. But Dazzler of the 616 ends up with this group, and they were told by one of the surviving Xavier heads that they need to find and kill ten evil multiversal xaviers, or the multiverse ends.

>> Guido: It's such a fun mission for a book, too.

>> Rob: Yeah. So they go on a world, a, world to world killings, free quest to find the ten xaviers, which also includes a squid, dinosaur, whale and unicorn xaviers. Yes.

>> Guido: And we'll get more into that.

>> Rob: Correct. And it leads to some pretty fun multiversal stories and worlds. And, yes, as you said, we'll get into more of that in a second. And then, to summarize, a sprawling and very rushed crossover that happens in extermination, where these multiversal teams all unleash some unnamed monster that looks a lot like the manhunters of the DC universe.

>> Guido: And literally unnamed. The whole time I kept being like, am I missing this? No, they are. They do.

>> Rob: They do look just like them. And of course they are going to end the multiverse now. Something's always going to try to end the multiverse. So a whole bunch of multiversal fun has to happen. Like Jean Grey taking in the power of Apocalypse, and then these other creatures get defeated. And so we wrap up the team we spend so much of the time with, many of them have to die. But Howlett lands back in the 616 with our dazzler.

>> Guido: Yeah, so that's a summary of three years of comics that everyone should go read. But to talk a little bit about the team and then get into our character today at different times, the team includes, well, it's led by the 616 Dazzler. So our Dazzler leads it. There's actually one really fun issue where they come to our world and she's like, oh, we have to save your world. And Scott is like, you do know this is our world, right? Like your world. It's a very cute, clever thing. Anyway, 616 Dazzler Howlett, who I'll get into in a moment. We've got the Xavier floating head. We've got Emmeline Summers. So an alternate Emma. Ah, she actually leaves the team pretty early. We've got an orphan teenage Kurt, who's like a spider Man Kurt mashup. We've got a sage. We've got an X Force zombie killing Dazzler, another dazzler who comes in. We've got Hercules from Howlett's world. We've got Scott Summers, who's a former slave and Union army civil war soldier. So that's who makes up the extreme X Men, if you will. So, to get into Howlett and who James Howlett is, he has a medal of the gods called adamantine, given to him by Hercules, which is golden and covers his skeleton, including his bone, claws and his skull, which makes him immune to psychic attacks. And note that adamantine is actually a real metal that exists in the 616. I mean, real in the Marvel universe, not in our world. And it's actually like what Hercules golden mace is made of, and it's supposedly what adamantium is named for, this metal of the gods, adamantine. So it's a fun twist there. Anyway, Howlett is the former governor general of her Majesty's dominion of Canada and viceroy of her Majesty's expedition to Shangri La. The world has no X Men that he comes from, and we actually don't know much else. That's pretty much everything we know about his world. He is described at different times as Wolverine meets Teddy Roosevelt. I love that narration that comes up. So all we know about Howlett, other than what I just said, is that at one point, so he's in love with Hercules, they end up together. At one point, they slay a monster. They reveal their love, but the gods didn't allow the love. And there's an interesting question that I want us to talk about, about is it because it's mortal God love, or is it because they're gay? And I'm not totally clear, but they're banished to a hell dimension, where they have to just kill demons for years until Savior pulls Howlett out of that, dimension, which kicks off the story that you just heard all about. And so then to get to jump to the end, you hear about the arc that Rob just described. The final time we've seen Howlett is that they're in the 616, and Dazzler tells him to have fun in Greece. So we know he's going to Greece. He talks about wanting to go to the underworld to get Hercules back. And now, eleven years later, we await his return. We can talk more about that. So let's talk about the character. We can get a bit into the plot. There's a lot going on. And I know we want to talk about those other worlds and all those kooky Xaviers, too. But let's start with Howlett, our focus for today. So what if Wolverine was gay? Do you like this Howlett character?

>> Rob: Yeah, it's interesting because when we first, when they first put the seed of him maybe being gay, it's kind of a off. If you're reading quickly, you probably would read over it. It's that kind of Dazzler, sort of.

>> Guido: Because they meet at first, they meet a different Hercules, and Dazzler sort of detects that there's something between the two of them and starts almost teasing Howlett a little. And it's not totally confirmed at first.

>> Rob: And then it continues just to be kind of almost like a running joke, but again, very much in the background. It's not really until we get past that, like, storyline or really meet Hercules as a character that we really kind of get into their whole backgrounds there. So I was interested, I was intrigued to know, like, hey, is this just gonna be, is this gonna be just like a hint that he's gay or is this gonna kind of be the background? So I was actually surprised with the fact that they made it very transparently. Oh, no, these two are in a relationship.

>> Guido: Yeah. And remarkable for the time, which is just so sad. But the world we live in, they show him and Hercules kissing on panel. Right. And that's, that's not very common. Granted, this is at the same moment North Star is getting married. And like, so we've certainly seen queer characters and we've certainly seen them be affectionate on panel, but this is Wolverine like. That's what is pretty remarkable to me about it. And again, it's one panel in a, one page flashback where we get this story of him and Hercules, but it is not at all even like the Richter Shatterstar relationship for decades was where it's like, are they together? Well, you could sort of read it that they're just close friends. It's like, no, this is very clear. Are in a love, romantic, sexual relationship. It's clear.

>> Rob: Were you reading this when it came out and what were your thoughts? Like, how did you take it when you were reading, reading it when it came out?

>> Guido: I didn't read it when it came out. I read it a few years later because it was, again, when I was sort of paring back issues and not reading every single issue. But I read it not long after it came out and it was fun. I thought it was really fun. I love, this is why we have this podcast. I love multiversal stories like this that have different characters from different worlds. It's why we haven't yet touched exiles. But that is a hundred issue series that does exactly this. And we will at one point have to deal with so yeah, I was into the story. I wanted more, though, and I still want more, which we'll talk about when we wrap this segment up. But at the time, I definitely was like, okay, give me more, Howlett. Like, all right, you've got us there, Greg, and you've made it explicit. But now give me more.

>> Rob: Yeah, I would say he is. Well, this is definitely dazzler's then story. Once we kind of get into the real meat of this arc. And then I would say even the Kurt character, our teenage Kurt, is kind of the second character, we kind of go a lot into Kurt backstory then with his family in one of our worlds. So Howlett really does remain a little. A little in the background for, like, a Wolverine character.

>> Guido: He's.

>> Rob: He's there to do the Wolverine thing and, like, use his claws and that kind of thing, and. But he's not at the forefront there. Hercules, even less so. I think Hercules has, like, very few lines, even despite all, so many.

>> Guido: Books, and then tragically dies at the end, which is why Howlett's gonna go to Greece to go try to pull him out of Hades. But you get the sense, and reading the Greg Pac interviews, I could find that were contemporary to this coming out, you definitely get the sense that this ended prematurely, that he had bigger plans for both the Extreme X Men title and this ongoing multiversal story. But also for Howlett. Theres one Q and a he did with a comic book website. And in that someone asks about there being a, spin off series for Howlett and Hercules, and he's like, very into the idea. And of course, I'm sure it was never even in development because I'm sure Marvel wouldn't have greenlit it. But it's clear that Greg had a whole sense of this character and wanted to do a lot. And I feel like maybe was saving some of that and m then because this ended so quickly, we didn't get a lot of that. Because I agree with you. You almost go through, you have the first arc that sort of just sets up what the extreme X Men are and what they're doing and what the potential is. And then the next arc goes into Kurt's backstory and makes it relevant to today because they go to the earth and that earth is overrun with AI. But I would imagine maybe he had a plan to keep doing that because we actually never, as I said in the intro to this episode, we never visit Earth. One 20. two five.

>> Guido: Never. It's seen on a one page flashback. And we know the Hercules from it, and we know the howlet from it, but that's it. We never go to that world. So I wonder if maybe we were going to end up going to that world or learning more about it.

>> Rob: Yeah. And we get, like, another one passing line from the fact that Howlett lost his governorship because the queen didn't look kindly on gay relationships as well. But that's like, again, not something that's ever actually explored. We don't even see that on a panel. It's just.

>> Guido: No, and that's what's interesting. So there's that line. And she. What? He says something. He doesn't say gay relationships. He says something to the effect of, it might even be like, man.

>> Rob: Loving other man loving another man. Yeah.

>> Guido: So there's that. But like you said, he only says that because he talks about why he lost his title and his authority and or his leadership role. Then the flashback is with Zeus. So it's a different part of the story. And Zeus condemns them to this other dimension because of the mortal human love. And so that's where I'm intrigued. And I sort of like that his whole story isn't about being gay. And I'm sure that was very intentional on Pac's part. Like, that first exchange is with Dazzler, and they're talking about how this world seems better because it seems to accept more loving relationships and dazzlers. Like, yeah, we still have some room to grow, but, yes, that's true. And then the flashback, though, I don't think is about being gay. I don't think that's why Hercules and Howlett end up getting sent to the dimension. Did you think that was why?

>> Rob: No, I don't think so either. I think it is for loving a mortal. Although, like, with everything in X Men, it works on multiple levels.

>> Guido: Totally.

>> Rob: Mm And it's. You can see the comparisons, too, to the Scott Summers character, who's a former slave in civil war. corporal, And like, that dazzler, at first kind of assumes she doesn't know his full story either. And then she, she kind of assumes one thing about him, and then that she sees the scars from him being whipped. And it then gives her a new perspective on, on this character and herself, not realizing, oh, I didn't really know who this person was. And I think she has a similar relationship with how she sees Howlett throughout this story as well. Oh, I saw him in just this one way. And as I learn, oh, three years he was in this demon dimension. I kind of just thought he was this gruff guy, and now I see. Oh, maybe there's a reason why he acts the way he does.

>> Guido: Mm Well, we should point out, too, that Scott Summers is black, and there is a reference to a wolverine that's a woman by one of the other, by the saber tooth that they encounter in the wild west. He says, oh, I already had to kill her once. And, so it's interesting, like, it's always been m canonical to multiversal stories that you can have transracial, trans identity, trans anything across a multiverse. So in the same way we saw it in the Loki tv series. But I like that this confirms it and sort of plays with it, both with the Scott summers and then obviously with Howlett and Howlett's sexuality. If we assume that the 616 Logan is straight, then this one is not. And that's interesting. Whereas Hercules, like I said, seems consistently bisexual in Marvel Comics across the multiverse, which is an interesting choice, again, especially since it's the same writer who does it twice.

>> Rob: yeah, well, and that kind of leads us also into the Xaviers as well, because that's another thing where we always talk about, and we've mentioned on this show before, that Charles always has this dark side that hasn't really been explored too much in, like, the films as well, but he's always a bit of an asshole or maybe even something worse. And that's something here that we're, like, really seeing in the character throughout all these different worlds where, oh, there's actually, there's, like, bad char, there's Charles, that Narnda is good, and then there's, like, truly evil Charles's. And that's something that's, like, connecting all of these characters.

>> Guido: Well, in the Charles and the head Charles that's guiding them. Like, they think he's evil at one point, but then it turns out he's not. He's being controlled by another one. And it's all these layers of what makes Charles evil. So, excuse me. Let's talk about some of those alternate worlds that we see in here before we get more into Howlett. We have. And these worlds, again, you don't see a lot of them. So we have the world that Howlett gets brought to with Savior and the headless Xavier. So we've got that world. We've got a world that has gods and steampunk, and Xavier is sort of this steampunk character fighting against these gods that are the mutants. Then we've got a wild west world where Xavier is like an evil sheriff, and you've got the other Scott Summers sheriff and Sabretooth and all that. We've got the orphaned Kurt world, where danger and the robots have taken over the whole world. So it's like a post apocalyptic, robot ruled world. We've got a world where the brood have taken over, and Xavier becomes the Akanti, which is that giant whale that floats around outer space. But then actually the Akanti, Xavier gets pulled to the 616, which is when Dazzler sees Scott and has that funny exchange about it being her earth. We've got a zombie world, which you just see briefly the dazzler that's killing zombies. We've got the wildest of the worlds, the unicorn demon world, where we have the witch king Xavier. And at first you meet them all, and theyre all unicorns, and you think like, oh, this is a weird world, Greg. And then you learn that that was actually like a, facade, and theyre actually all demons, and the witch King Xavier is ruling them. You have a little bit of backstory from the Scott summers world with the civil war, where the X Men are part of the civil war, and you see some panels where theyre all, like, fighting, and its a fun, fun idea. It's like the, there are classic DC elseworlds that do that. Then you've got the post world War two alternate world where the world is kind of underwater. And that's because Xavier, I love this. I love that Xavier's not a Nazi. He's the head of the fascist party in the UK and actually, like, kicks Hitler out and so that he can take over. But then Namor, who's aligned with the Japanese, floods the entire world, and so you end up with, basically it's nazi versus Nazi.

>> Rob: Yes. And instead of a swastika, it's an x, of course, which, yeah, but, you know, this was making me think we covered a what if a long time ago where Namor was a Nazi.

>> Guido: Yeah.

>> Rob: Remember that? So I almost was thinking, oh, something with the ocean.

>> Guido: I don't know why.

>> Rob: Yes. It was also like them taking over the ocean is. Yeah. So I was like, oh, this feels like a reference to that.

>> Guido: And then the last one we've got is, like, some alternate ancient Egypt where they're building a sphinx of Xavier. And that's where the multiverse starts to crash into each other, and you get the Xavier showdown. And then that leads you into the extermination plot. Anyway, so a lot of really fun worlds. Do you have a favorite that you liked seeing?

>> Rob: Oh, I think just like, the craziness of, like, whoa, there was a dinosaur world, too. We didn't. I don't think you mentioned that one.

>> Guido: Well, it's the savage world, and it's. Yeah, we barely see it, but, yes, there is, briefly. That's true. a, like, kind of savage world. It's like a savage land takes over the world. You're right.

>> Rob: I think it's just fun to not have the characters or this point. Charles always be human as well. So going into him being.

>> Guido: Yeah, there's a giant floating whale demon thing.

>> Rob: Yeah. yeah, there's. The very first one we see is like a Cthulhu squid monster kind of thing with a giant brain on it. So it's fun that it's not always like, oh, it's not always just a human Charles world. And some of them, as you said, we kind of. We go into, in m much more detail. I think that the wild west one, we get a lot of detail from, and that one is very interesting, kind of. It also has a little bit of steampunkiness to it as well, because the Cyclops has very, like, steampunk kind of goggles. But it's interesting, and it's interesting because that Charles in that world, just starts off as a card thief. A card, trick. Trick. He's able to read the cards and people are getting angry at him. And then he realizes, oh, my powers are so much more powerful than I thought. I could just, like, kill people with my brain. And then he takes over the whole. It's like, oh, that's an interesting story of, like, oh, just start by cheating at cards and then, oh, you're gonna, like, take over this whole western town.

>> Guido: Yeah. Lots of corruption in these xaviers. Is. Is there one of the worlds that you'd want to see more of?

>> Rob: Oh, gosh. m. I. Well, the robot.

>> Guido: I have the answer for you. I know your answer.

>> Rob: Oh, what's my answer?

>> Guido: The. The witch King Xavier.

>> Rob: Oh, well, that was very interesting. Yeah.

>> Guido: That is like, there's very, like, very, very lovecraftian, too. He's like, calling demons, like, Shaggoth or whatever, like, there's something, you know, so it's just that one's like a really over the top horror movie world.

>> Rob: Yeah. But, like you mentioned, though, the robot robot world is very interesting to today, like, AI and the sentience. And there's an interesting, like, moral questions where they're trying to defeat the robots. But the robots robots are also, they considered people. So can they really kill the like. That was a very interesting, very kind of X Men like question.

>> Guido: And, there was a cool question in that especially, too, that most of the robots were created after the robot uprising. So can you hold all robots responsible for the fact that robots took over this world? And I loved that question, I think. Yeah, I imagine that question had layers that could relate to the legacy of slavery. And who do you hold responsible for things that happened before your generation was alive, but your life is built upon that oppression? So I think, yeah, there were really interesting questions in that one. The civil War one, though, felt ripe to me, too, for some sort of elseworlds tale, for sure.

>> Rob: Mm Yeah, it'd be interesting to do a whole nother spin off of any of these and kind of just go more in depth into any of these. I could. I could see a whole world, even if you take it out from the characters that we meet here. But I think there's definitely a lot of room to build on these. These worlds.

>> Guido: Yeah. So let's move into our next segment, and we can talk about what we want to see of Howlett and Wolverine overall.

>> Rob: Okay, it's time to ponder some possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted?

>> Guido: Diverted. Averted.

>> Rob: So, gita, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?

>> Guido: Well, let's start with Howlett and what we want to see if hem. Then we could talk a little bit about Wolverine on screen, since it's imminent in the next six weeks, which is fantastic. And there's lots of queerbaiting with some of the advertising. So we can talk a little bit about Wolverine as potentially queer. And then I do want to return to Wolverine in the comics and explore a little bit about what we want to see from 616 or otherwise. So let's start with Howlett. Do you want more Howlett? Would you read a Howlett series? Would you read a mini series? Should he have an ongoing series? Is there more to be told with our queer Wolverine?

>> Rob: I definitely think there's more to be told. I think judging by what we get to see of him in the books that we discussed, it's hard to say. I wouldn't just judge it on that, because, as I said, like, he's is in the background, and I feel like they don't give the character as much growth as he could be. That's also the. So it's, like, the reason why I want to see more, but just based on these books, if I didn't, like, think the bigger picture, I'd go, I, don't know if I would need to see more. Does that make sense?

>> Guido: I guess, but I think I need to see more, so it makes sense. I just guess I don't agree because I think he's, some of it is just in the design even. I think what's fun about his design to me is that, and whether this is Mike McCone or Steven Segovia or Greg Pack or some combination, he looks like so many queer archetypes.

>> Guido: And yet looks like Wolverine. So you've got the bulky hairy chest, at, ah, various points when he's with Hercules, or there's that fantastic, fantastic cover of that issue when you get their backstory where he and Hercules look like they're wearing like a very seventies leather bar outfit. And so it's just, I think it's, I think there's so much fun in the character design that even though I think probably what you're responding to is like, you don't get a ton of his personality because there's just not a lot of his dialogue. I want to see more, and I'm assuming his personality will come through in more. Again, I think Pac was probably setting up a series potential where you have Howlett going to get Hercules out of hades, and I want to see that. That would be so fun and epic and mythological and all of those classic things.

>> Rob: But yeah, I think there's a lot of potential with that storyline in general and exploring what that means and pulling in those archetypes, as you said. And I do think, like, it would be great also because it's a quest that quests always have a group, and this has very much like, these issues we read very much have that quest feel that kind of, yeah, they have a mission, fellowship of the Rings, and so you and I think Wolverine is always a character that works really well when you have a foil for him to play off of Kitty Pride or Jubilee or in this case, Dazzler. So I think, like, they would be, who would you put with him on this quest? Because who would you think he could play off of?

>> Guido: Well, if we assume it wouldn't be a multiversal team, I think those are always fun, but I think you can do anything at that point once you have a multiversal team. Since he's in the 616, I think we'd have to think of who in the 616 would go well with him. Now, of course, obviously Deadpool as another queer, pansexual character. Like, oh, he'd have so much fun flirting with Howlett and like really, teasing that out a bit. So I think Deadpool would be a lot of fun. Maybe because of what you're saying about his personality. I guess I'm imagining quirky characters with him because I think he is the more serious, heroic straight man.

>> Rob: No.

>> Guido: Yeah, not the straight, not straight man.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: so yeah, I think that would be really fun to see. What, what I can't understand, ah, other than conspiracy theories, is why we haven't seen him in eleven years. It's very strange to me that he's not killed off. I mean, even if he's killed off, you can bring him back, but he's not killed off. He's really just gone in the 616 and no one has touched him.

>> Rob: Mm Yeah. There's also the classic multiversal storyline of him meeting the 616 Hercules as well. And like, would they have the relationship, or was it that specific Hercules that he lost? That was the one he had the connection to. So even right there, it's like, oh, that's a great thing that you could explore without him even having gone to the underworld. If they don't want to go there for some reason.

>> Guido: And he has to meet the 616 Wolverine.

>> Rob: Exactly. Yeah.

>> Guido: Which will be fun, because Wolverine, first of all, Wolverine is an incredible parent. His queer Child, too. So we know that he will have zero problem. There's actually a mini series that just wrapped up Weapon X Men that we will talk about one day that is multiversal wolverines. It includes a transgender Wolverine. it includes really fun wolverines. And Howlett is not in it, but, and it just, I can understand it because the 616 WolVerine Encountering other versions of himself is a story that's been done, and for some reason, people are not doing it with Howlett. I don't know if, you know, I think sometimes if a creator has a lot of attachment out of respect, I think sometimes people don't want to take another creator's character. And this is completely Greg Pak's character from start to finish, as I speculated. I bet he had other stories and he writes for Marvel. So maybe people, out of respect, like, want to sort of leave Howlett for him. But it's been eleven years and no one's greenlit. He's bringing Howlett back. So, from our mouth to conservative Marvel's ears, we want a Howlett miniseries. Even in the pride one shots, like, they don't do anything.

>> Rob: Totally. I mean, yeah, even if they don't want to devote a whole book to that's a perfect platform to give him that story. And you could tell, I mean, it might not be as good, but you could tell an abbreviated version of the Hades story in one of those shots.

>> Guido: Yeah, but they don't even call them pride one shots anymore. It had to be the wedding special this year, so nothing like going further back into the closet at Marvel, so. But the movie that's coming out next month, I don't think we're gonna have queerness in that movie. I really don't. But that's the cynical part of me. But we are teasing. Ryan Reynolds loves to tease a pansexual deadpool, and then they're certainly teasing some sexualized content in this r rated film. Do you think there's any chance we'll have queerness in Deadpool and Wolverine from either character?

>> Rob: I think Deadpool will be. I mean, I think they've been.

>> Guido: Yeah, but will it be queerness in the sense that, like, he comments on another man being attractive, which doesn't even mean he's queer. Straight men can find other men attractive. Or will it be like, no, he has had or will have relationships?

>> Rob: I think they're going to make it pretty explicit. Now, I know Marina Bacaran, who was like, the love interest, is back in some form, but I don't think that's confirmed.

>> Guido: But I'm pretty sure we know she's back.

>> Rob: But I bet they make Deadpool canonically queer. And I think it's more than just a passing reference in. That's what I think. Now, I don't know about Wolverine, especially being that the character, in the comics has never has it been that questionable in that way.

>> Guido: If we get alternate wolverines on screen, do you think they ever make one queer? Would we ever see Howlett? Let's assume this movie, we know this movie has the multiverse in it, so let's assume they keep encountering different wolverines. Do you think Howlett would ever be one?

>> Rob: Yeah, I think so. Especially, again, if they lean into the idea of Deadpool being a queer character, that I think that would make so much sense that he isn't going to be in a relationship with the main. The Wolverine we know. I don't even know if that's going to be the Wolverine we know in the movie or not.

>> Guido: No, it's not clear.

>> Rob: Yeah, but I totally think he could encounter another Wolverine in another. In another world. Yeah, 100%.

>> Guido: Well, you know what I was wondering is, could we have Brett Goldstein in this movie?

>> Rob: I was thinking that too.

>> Guido: Yeah, I doubt it, but we know we have all these dangling folks that are being unused. Hercules, again, is canonically queer in the 616 and in this world with Howlett. And so could Brett Goldstein somehow show up in the movie with Deadpool and Wolverine?

>> Rob: Yeah, and Hugh Jackman's probably his second most famous character, maybe after Wolverine. Way down the list after Wolverine, I guess number two. But was he played on Broadway? Peter Allen, a very famously gay singer songwriter. So he has played queer, characters before. And, he's been in a lot of musical theater, so not that all gay characters have to be into musical theater, but we could have a show tune singing Wolverine somewhere.

>> Guido: That's true. That's true. That would be really fun. So, yeah, I don't know. We'll see. We'll see what we see. And how much of this is just teasing, how much of it is made explicit, how much of it's pulling from Greg Pak's run. I want to go back. Go ahead.

>> Rob: Wolverqueen drag queen Wolverine. Shantae, you slay.

>> Guido: I'm sure someone floated that idea. I don't know if we'll see it, but I'm sure that idea has come up out of someone's mouth. But on comics, I want to end on comics. There is actually a relaunch of the title coming this fall, and that's really exciting. Not that titles aren't relaunched often. And of course, this is the new post Krakoa era relaunch of every X Men related title. But it's gonna be great. It's Saladin Ahmed and Martin Ciccolo. What do you want from Wolverine comics? Considering you've never read them, what would make you read them? Like, what do you want to see in a Wolverine comic?

>> Rob: I think humor, and as I said earlier, I think one of the things that was stopping me was sometimes thinking of some of the more melodramatic elements. But I think when he has really succeeded in the animated series, especially, it is because he is a funny character, and I think especially giving him someone really strong to play off of in, and I think that's why he works so well even on the animated series opposite, like, a Jubilee, because they are such different personalities in that way. So I think I'd love to see that kind of humor, not just because I think there's, you could definitely lean into the Frank Miller ness of, like, oh, and I don't know if his comic was this way, but into that, like, oh, I'm gritty and serious and, but I think it's nice to have that kind of sarcasm as part of the character as well.

>> Guido: Yeah. And there are, different iterations of that should you ever wade into the Wolverine territory, not just the nineties ones I was naming, but in the 2010s, actually, Wolverine and the X Men is a title by Jason Aron that's very wacky and cartoonish, and it's like his struggles when he is now leading the school and all of the young X Men. And that is, like, a comedy title. So I think that is a part, even the current run that's wrapping up Ben Percy's run of the Krakoa era, which lasted 50 issues. And it's fantastic, and it's gritty and violent at times, but he puts in some humor at times, too, and leans into that, balancing it pretty well. I expect from Saladin Ahmed that this title will do the same coming up this fall.

>> Rob: Yeah. Is there something that you're hoping from this title?

>> Guido: No, I think just fun. I think Wolverine. I think, like you said, it's almost like. I don't know. I don't even want to liken him to the Punisher because I really dislike that character and how people have approached that character, not just politically, but just even character wise. But I think you could easily descend into a really dark place with Wolverine, or not even dark, but just getting stuck in the murderous rampage idea in the, sort of global crime thriller, vigilante death wish aspect of him as a character. And I think it's a lot more fun when he's a mutant and an X Men and wears a costume and all of those things. So I'm hoping the TItle does that, and I'm gonna assume it's going to, since there's so much now synergy with the on screen stuff. I think we're gonna see the fun mutant costume wearing Wolverine and just build out his mythology a little bit and get some of those wacky. You didn't have any idea where did we hear about LCD? And you were like, is that a real character? And I was like, yeah, LCD and Albert are great Wolverine characters from the nineties. Where was LCD being referred to?

>> Rob: But, you know, I'm thinking now to a character that he's a good comparison to who this is. The kind of Wolverine I want is also Spike. Buffy, that's also a character that's got a similar personality. And I think the other thing that.

>> Guido: They complain, you don't want him to be angel. You want him to be Spike.

>> Rob: Yeah, I wanted to be Spike. Exactly. That's a perfect comparison. And the other fun thing with those characters, which I don't know how much they lean into with Wolverine is like, pull in the fact that, like, he was riding in a horse and Buggy and like, I went to the Nickelodeon to see a movie. Like, it's fun that, like, he lived through all of this and is also, though we're in modern time and that's like the fun thing with a character like Spike, he can like, talk about that stuff. So it'd be fun to also incorporate, like, the olden times into Wolverine's character.

>> Guido: Yeah, well, maybe, we'll get that. If not in the pages of the books, then maybe on screen, though I doubt that one. All right, so I've been the best there is at, what I do. And that is a wrap. Dear Watchers, thank you for listening.

>> Rob: I've been Guido and I have been rob.

>> Guido: The lengthy, lengthy reading list is in the show notes, but it is worth your time and you can find us online at deer Watchers.

>> Rob: Leave us a five star review wherever you listen, and we'll be back soon with another trip to the multiverse.

>> Guido: In the meantime, keep pondering the possibilities.