Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

>> Rob: Double, double, toil and trouble. Agatha and Zaytana are a witchy couple of episodes on Dear Watchers, an omniversal comic book contest where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.

>> Guido: We are traveling with you through the witchy stories and worlds that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers, your witchy watchers on, this journey are me, Guido. Oh, I should have said it backwards.

>> Rob: That or Robana. But that sounds like a car company or a prescription manual.

>> Guido: So you be boar, I'll be Odig.

>> Rob: That sounds good.

>> Guido: We have our magic names.

>> Rob: And before we begin that magical journey today, Guido, what's new in our little section of the multiverse?

>> Guido: Well, our last episode was Agatha Harkness, and we wanted a little bit of a continuation, which is why this episode is here. However, since our last episode, the first two episodes of Agatha all along debuted and we made some good predictions and that wizard of Oz just won't go away. So there were direct references to wizard of Oz. No spoilers for Agatha all along, but it's great. People should watch it. And I am curious which of our other predictions are going to come true. Which. Which.

>> Rob: Yeah, exactly. Well, we should give some context, too, that we covered an issue where Agatha was actually in the wizard of Oz. she was Glinda, the good witch, and we were talking a lot about how Oz really gets mapped onto superhero journeys. I think that's a conversation we'll be continuing today with one of our books as well.

>> Guido: Yeah, but now, I mean, again, I don't want to spoil the first two episodes for those who are late to the Agatha along game, but my gosh, the. The references are explicit. They're not even subtle. I think we're going to get a lot on purpose of wizard of Oz. It's even in the end credits, they show some of the illustrations from the original Alfrank Baum edition. So wizard of Oz and witches are really fun. It made me think about this. Tongue twister. Ready? If two witches would watch two watches, which witch would watch which watch? Ooh, try it.

>> Rob: Tricky. If two witches would watch two watches, which. I almost got it. If two witches would watch two watches, which witch would watch witch watch.

>> Guido: Yeah, there you go.

>> Rob: I can get the diction, but I can't get it quick. Having those speech therapy classes as a kid, it's coming back to haunt me now.

>> Guido: And we are covering two witches, so that's why. That's a fitting one. The last new thing is when this episode is out my book, queer mythology is out in a week. A week. One week.

>> Rob: It's been, oh, my gosh, almost two.

>> Guido: Years in the making, and in one week, it's out. It's already been in some other podcasters hands, and some advanced review copies have been out. So lots more to come. Lots of events this fall and winter. And if you're looking for 20 cool myths, real ancient myths, but that feature queer protagonists, check it out in a week. Queer mythology.

>> Rob: And like we said last episode, not explicitly witches, but there's some witch related witch, adjacent mythology in there.

>> Guido: We were even just listening to a really interesting conversation on a podcast, a, ah, history podcast. We've been enjoying about what it defines a witch. And I think that was really interesting while we were reading today's character. So I think we'll probably return to that question of what's a witch versus a magician and what are the rules?

>> Rob: So, well, if you're joining us for the first time on this very witchy podcast, we have, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse origins of the story, exploring multiversity and pondering possibility. So thanks for coming along.

>> Guido: And remember, leave a five star review wherever you're listening, and check us out@deerwatchers.com. where you can find all our past episodes.

>> Rob: And with that, welcome to episode 143. And let's check out what's happening in the omniverse with our travels. Today's alternate universe. And today we are donning our pointy hats and broomsticks, or should we say our top hats and fish nets. To answer the question, what if Zatanna was one of the first on screen featured heroic witches from either DC or Marvel?

>> Guido: Whoa. Oh, my gosh. People's minds were just blown with that question today. And the earth that we are visiting today is the earth DCAU. So the DC animated universe, which we first covered back in episode 73, almost half, the number of episodes prior to this one to cover Kevin Conroy and Dark Claw, Amalgam and Batman, the animated series. But we also looked at Clayface in episode 96 and Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn in ep 103. So go back and check out our coverage of Batman, the animated series and the DCAU there, because DCAU is the home, of course, of the animated series and all the DC. Hundreds of hours of animated episodes and movies that they've sort of fused together into one universe and a few occasional tie in attempts in comics.

>> Rob: and Our lady of the hour, Zatanna. Zaitana. Zatanna.

>> Guido: Zatanna. Zatara.

>> Rob: Will work. Exactly. So what is your.

>> Guido: No, no, her last name is Zatara. I'm not saying, like, tomato, tomato. I'm saying her full name. Zatanna Zatara.

>> Rob: That's true. It does. It sounds like that tongue twister you were giving us before. But what is your background with this character? Because she's not, she's not in the a list, I guess. She's a b lister, let's say.

>> Guido: Well, I don't know that we should put people on ranked list. She's on somebody's a listen. And, she has appeared a lot of times. So I think as a comic fan, I always knew who Zaytana was, but she definitely lived in the background up until Justice League dark. And I'll go into a little bit more about Justice League dark when we talk about her history. So as a huge fan of that, of all of those series and the reboots, I knew Zaytana through that. Outside of that, really just her look and her occasional appearances in other JLA books. So not a lot that I knew about her. and was definitely not a fan because I didn't know what I should be a fan of regarding her. How about you?

>> Rob: Well, she was a super friend though, right?

>> Guido: I don't think she was on super.

>> Rob: Friend, so I guess I just knew her then from the back background. I was never a huge, like, Justice League reader in general, so that would been probably the main part, main place. I would have seen her growing up. So I think, like you, you had said her look, her look is very striking. Yeah, it's almost got a little.

>> Guido: We'll get into it. We will get into it for sure.

>> Rob: So.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah. Certainly been licensed. Probably more than her true narrative featuring would normally dictate. So she probably has more seen her a lot.

>> Rob: Statues of her. Those little statues you see at nuke Comic Con than characters that have more appearances than her.

>> Guido: That is for sure the case.

>> Rob: Let's get into it before someone drops a house on us. We're going back to origins of the story.

>> Guido: Right now on this very show.

>> Rob: You're gonna get the answer to all your questions. Amazing story begins a few years ago. And before we get into her first appearance, let's give a little background on her creation. And really before you can talk about Zaytana, you should talk about her dad, her father, Zaitara. These names, I feel like I'm gonna definitely screw them up. They also sound like thundercats, right? Don't the Thundercats all sound like that too?

>> Guido: Yeah, a little bit. Chitara sure.

>> Rob: Exactly. Well, Zaitara first appeared, and I don't know if you've ever heard of this book, Guido. It's called action comics number one in 1938.

>> Guido: Go to your local comic store, see if you can get a copy.

>> Rob: Yes. Yeah, it's in the dollar bin. It was in his own story. Zaitara, master magician by writer and artist Fred Guanineer. And I would have to imagine this is like a deep trivial pursuit question, like, what character premiered in action comics number one? That's nothing. Superman.

>> Guido: Well, I think you could probably list a lot of people like Lois Lane, et cetera.

>> Rob: Oh, that's true. Well, not Superman.

>> Guido: It probably does surprise people. And it sort of stinks for huge fans of Zataara because they're never getting his first appearance. So that's a tough grail if you're a big fan of Zatara.

>> Rob: Well, you know, they're also, if you're a big fan of Zatara, you're also probably a big fan of the Lee Falk comic strip character Mandrake the magician because they are basically exactly the same. Mandrake actually premiered four years earlier in 1934. And so there's lots of similarities there and also some similarities with the Phantom, the other big leafaul character. And like his daughter, Zatar is both a professional magician and an actual magician who cast spells with backward speech. So that all started with the dead cat.

>> Guido: And by professional magician, you mean like an illusionist? An illusionist, a master of tricks or whatever. A stage magician, if you will.

>> Rob: Exactly. And I actually couldn't really find much of her background on why she was created, but I did see her first several crossover issues, all edited by the legendary Julie Schwartz, and they all focus on her searching for her father. So that's how she was introduced.

>> Guido: Yeah, it's a big part of her story. She debuts in Hawkman Hash four, which we're going to talk about in just a moment, then quickly shows up in a good number of places, a handful in the sixties and then a whole lot in the seventies and beyond. Adventure comics, a few specials bringing together the magic characters, Justice League of America in the eighties, world's finest. She surprisingly becomes a staple in this era. She then shows up in swamp thing. And finally, post Crisis on infinite Earth, she gets a solo title, which we will also cover in a moment, followed by some appearances in Books of Magic, a limited series in 1993, her first eponymous multi issue series, one shot in 2003. She's featured, of course, in the two thousands in Identity Crisis and the JLA reboot at the time she's part of Grant Morrison's seven soldiers. Her first ongoing solo title ever is in 2010. Last 16 issues. And it's created by Paul Dini, whose name you're gonna hear again this episode. So lots of overlapping connections. I think there's a few people who bring Zatanna's legacy forward because she only has a few major narrative plots going on. She then is a huge part of Justice League dark in both the New 52 and the rebirth era of that team.

>> Rob: I feel like her character appearances go hand in hand with the interest in occult and witchcraft in popular culture. Like, we know that in the sixties, people were getting really into tarot and the paranormal. We also get Doctor Strange, right? So she appeared first, appears, then. Then comes back in the nineties. I'm thinking the craft and wiccan and the revival of that, and now her being a popular character with kind of the return of witchcraft as something to celebrate. So maybe she rides that wave in popularity. What do you think?

>> Guido: I don't think I agree. And I think we'll talk about this when we get into the nature of her character, because I think she reads a much less occult than she does illusionist. So I don't think I would map her onto those same trends.

>> Rob: Well, let's start with her first appearance, which, as you mentioned, is in Hawkman, volume one, issue number four from DC Comics. This is from November 1964, and the story is entitled the Girl who splits in two.

>> Guido: It's written by Gardner Fox, penciled by Murphy Anderson, who also does the inks. Lettered by Gaspar Saladino, edited by Julie Schwartz. We've covered Gardner and Fox before, of course. Legend, co creator of DC Comics. Characters like Barbara Gordon and Flash and Hawkman and Doctor Fate and the original Sandman and Justice Society of America. Justice League of America did so much work. Murphy Anderson worked for DC Comics for 50 years, co created Zatanna, revived the Spectre, and also did the Buck Rogers syndication. Was the person responsible for the Wonder Woman that is most famous? The one on the debut issue of Miss magazine, number one from the seventies creative team.

>> Rob: Big female characters there. Yeah, Wonder Woman and Zaytana.

>> Guido: But why don't you summarize this issue? It is one story in a multi story Hawkman issue.

>> Rob: Well, Hawkman and Hawkgirl find mysterious placed items in Midway City Museum that lead them to adventures exploring culturally, outdoors, and just plain racist stereotypes. But along the way, they each discover a weird comatose Zatanna speaking in some kind of obscure language. They reunite the two zaytanas when they realize they are both speaking in half words. Zaitana explains that she cast a spell trying to find her missing father, Zaitara, and got stuck apart only with enough energy to move the items to a lot, alert the hawks of whom she knows, seems to know at least their true identities. And then Zatanna teleports away, but they are sure to see each other again.

>> Guido: Yeah. So this is a ridiculous, ridiculous, like, golden M age, Silver Age comic. It is quintessential DC 1960s absurd things.

>> Rob: It really made me appreciate Marvel, you know, when they say how Marvel was changing the game with Fantastic Four telling.

>> Guido: Adult stories, which is a year prior to this, of course.

>> Rob: And then you read this. This feels like it was written 20 years earlier than.

>> Guido: Totally. Absolutely. you almost wonder if, like, it was possibly sitting in a filing cabinet for 20 years, because it's just ridiculous. It's so pulpy in that, in the way. And what I mean by that is, like the golden age of pulps where, like, everything is a deux machina, everything is super convenient. There's no explanation needed. You really were amused by Hawkman's absorbicon, which gives him all knowledge of the world. It's just this little thing that he can put on his head to know absolutely anything and everything.

>> Rob: And they also have, like, a spaceship. I mean, I don't know the Hawks mythology too well, but, they also have a hulk.

>> Guido: They are alien, so it makes sense.

>> Rob: Well, aren't they, like, well, we won't. It's not a Hawkman episode. I thought they're like. Anyway, yes. They have lots of amazing technology to help them on this. really does focus on them, not on Zatanna. Yeah.

>> Guido: Well, focusing on Zaytana M. What I think. I think two things are great about this debut. One is what we have been skirting around and have to talk about her design. Her design is so good. The other, I'll, hold the other. Let's talk about her design.

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: Well, you and I before. Go ahead.

>> Rob: Feels so modern or modern of the time, I should say, versus the rest of the issue, like the best of the.

>> Guido: I don't even know that it feels modern in 1964. I think it's so good. It's timeless. I think it's one. There is a reason Zaitana, other than the, the seventies, eighties costume, which we'll get into in our next issue.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: This look of Zaytana's, her stage look is 100% consistent the entire life of this character. So for 60 years, actually, 60 years next month. Oh, my gosh, we're coming upon her anniversary 60 years next month. Zeytana has been, has looked exactly the same. And there's a reason for that. It's that she, it's awesome. You and I, before we were recording, were discussing, like, we don't know if Murphy Anderson or Gardner Fox, assuming they collaborated on the design, were inspired by any real life stage magician women or even stage magician assistants who had this look or if they were inspired by Las Vegas showgirls or Ziegfeld Follies sort of looks. I have no idea. But it's so good. I think people who don't read comics would know who she is. And as we were saying, they would know nothing about her story. But that look is so great.

>> Rob: Yeah, well, you know, there's a mix of the genders in there, too, because she's got, of course, like, the very leggy fishnets, the high heels, but also the top hat and the tuxedo top, almost like a Marlane Dietrich kind of thing, too.

>> Guido: It is definitely a little bit.

>> Rob: There's something about that. There's like this chanteuse and it's like, oh, you see the male and the female in there. Well, so there's something very intriguing. Maybe that's what you're, we're both getting at it being timeless and ahead of its time and, like, of the sixties as well because it also has this kind of forward thinking mentality on how they're presenting gender there.

>> Guido: Yeah, yeah. So I think the design is great. I think.

>> Rob: And on gender, too, I'm almost wondering if Richard O'Brien and the team were inspired by it for Rocky Horror, because Columbia, especially from Rocky Horror picture show, she's got the top hat.

>> Guido: Has the top hat, the coattails. Yeah.

>> Rob: Same outfit, only it's gold. And just the overall, some of the fishnets and that kind of feel, I was like, oh, maybe they were reading some, some comics. They were obviously into, like, Sci-Fi and all that.

>> Guido: I think there's no way she didn't inspire it because it really is remarkably similar. And so I think it's cool because on the, now, what's interesting is she's not on the COVID They didn't put her on the COVID I don't know if there was a concern over, like, her legginess or what the deal was or if they just didn't like putting female characters on the COVID which seems definitely true.

>> Rob: I mean, it's called Hawkman, even though Hawk Girl is just as big of a character. Right.

>> Guido: So that could be but for many of Zaytana's first appearances, or, these first appearances, she's not put on the COVID which is interesting because she is so stark and looks so different than other characters. But she is on the opening splash page. So right off the bat, you get this, like, preview of the story. She is the main attraction, and then you get into it. Now, the story of her, I actually like a lot. I thought it was. It's ridiculous that she split herself up just because she was in a rush to try to find her father. Like, that narrative piece is ridiculous. But the split in half thing where she's saying only half the words in each version, like, I thought that was so clever. Especially considering she's a character now known for speaking backwards.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: It was cool to find a different way to play with, even literally, the speech bubbles on the page. You'd have to flip back and forth if you wanted to piece it together. They do it for you. At one point, Hawkman, writes it out, but I thought it was just really clever. So it was a fun way to introduce this character. Do you agree?

>> Rob: I agree. I like that part. And it feels like it plays with some of these same ideas that we see in Doctor Strange with, like, the astral plane. And what happens if you get stuck in the astral plane? And can your mind be separated from your body? All those kind of those tropes that we see in other similar occult, mystical stories. So I did really like that part. And they keep her mysterious there in that she does disappear at the end. And it really feels like this backdoor pilot of, like, introducing this character, character through this other story rather than kind of focusing entirely on her.

>> Guido: It's also so funny to think that the people reading this would know who Zatara is. granted, they did some sort of digestive reprints in this era. We're talking about a character that was 30 years earlier in golden age comics and did not catch on. Right. Zatara was not Superman. Zatara did not have his own title. So it's pretty interesting and not surprising. Of course. Gardner Fox is, credited with creating a lot of the DC mythology we know and love, including crises. But it's interesting that he decided to take this character from decades earlier and then introduce his daughter in this way. And there is an editor's note referring to the fact that Zatara had previously debuted, but again, it's 1964. You're not gonna be able to go out and find that in a trade paperback or anything like that. So it's an interesting choice. To have her embedded in the mythos right off the bat.

>> Rob: Yeah. And that they were even taking things like the backward speaking and things like that. That, again, no one, as you're saying, what would necessarily know that's even something coming from the father character, but that they were having it there in that way, it also feels kind of forward thinking in the way that we now see. Oh, we're gonna kind of adapt, take a female, make a female version of maybe a previously male character to get increased diversity in comics. I don't know if that was she.

>> Guido: Hulk, Miss M. Marvel. All these characters were that. Yeah. And this is an earlier version of that, basically, but again, with a lot of distance between the two. So let's jump ahead in time. Now, as I mentioned, she joins the Justice League of America. She shows up in a good number of books, particularly in the late seventies, into the early eighties, but she does not get her own book until 87, just post crisis. And this was originally a four issue mini series. They wrote three of the issues, and then it was decided to scrap that idea and make it a one shot special. So what we read is an oversized special that was sort of a cobbled together version of what was going to be a miniseries.

>> Rob: And cobble together it is. This is Zetana special number one from DC Comics from May 1987. And the story is called Summoning.

>> Guido: Yes. And this is written by Jerry Conway, creator of Miss Marvel, penciled by Grey Morrow, who did the inks and colors. Lettered by Ben Oda, Carrie Spiegel, and John Stanza, and edited by Barbara Kizzle and Alan Gold. Jerry Conway, not only Miss Marvel, but co created Punisher, Firestorm, Power girl, Jason Todd. Killer Croc was responsible for the death of Gwen Stacy. Gwen Stacy. And with Grey Morrow, the artist here, co created man thing. Grey Morrow worked on, tons of horror comics and magazines for Warren, DC, and Archie. His style, I'd call the Bronze Age horror style. His only Marvel superhero story was actually a falcon feature in a Captain America. You really did not do too much for Marvel or in the way of superheroes. So before we dive in to what we thought of the issue, why don't you tell us what happens in the issue?

>> Rob: Yes. So Zatanna and her manager, slash friend would be lover, Jeff Sloan, are seeing odd images of Zaytana's late mother, Cindella. To discover what is happening, Zee and Jeff embark on a journey back to her ancestral homeland of the homo magi. Along the way, entering a giant, mystical space snake and encountering inhumanoid like monsters, Zaytana saves the homo magi from a sickly spell and finds the stereotypical old man on a mountain that tells her she is the chosen one, etc. Etcetera. In the climactic battle, Zaytana battles Allura, mistress of the dark elements. And just when all hope is lost, Cindella appears to her and lets her know that the biggest fear to overcome is her own self doubt. The inner saboteur, as RuPaul would say. And Satana defeats Alora and reunites with Jeff, telling him that it was he, his friendship, that gave her the strength to keep on fighting.

>> Guido: Yeah. So, all right, where to?

>> Rob: Well, start with that outfit, I guess, because you mentioned the amazing outfit that she premieres in that we all know with the top hat and the fishnets. And now she's got a little bit of a different outfit here.

>> Guido: Yeah. I think that the outfit that she's rebooted in, which is in Justice League of America, I, don't. I don't know why. I guess they wanted her to look more superheroic. It's not any less revealing. It's not like there was a sense of like, oh, let's not have a character in Fishnets fighting crime. Although they already had that with Black Canary. So maybe they were trying to separate her from Black Canary by putting her in this just, like, ridiculous blue and white leotard with a cape. It starts to really push her into the realm of, like, fantasy character, which maybe was the intent at the time because fantasy was having a moment in the late seventies and especially in the early to mid eighties. But it's really so ugly and nondescript. Like, you just constantly want her to go back to the other outfit anytime she's in this outfit.

>> Rob: It reminds me of another gardener Fox character, the Sandman, the Wesley Dodd character. One of the best outfits of any superhero character of all time. The gas mask, the suit, the hat. And then they were like, okay, but he needs to be more superhero like later. And they put him in that yellow and purple suits, which doesn't, like, why? Why is he in that yellow and purple suit? It makes no sense. And it was like the same thing here. Maybe they felt like, oh, like he's. They're too noir. They're, like, in suits that we want them to be more superhero. They need, like, big capes and all that. And that's what also happens here too.

>> Guido: Yeah. So anyway, separating it out, I guess before we get into the story part of it and the character part of it, I want to start with the art because part of why I had us read this issue, in addition to the fact that it's her first solo title, and in addition to the fact that it's probably the biggest story with her solo prior to the alternate universe, we're going to get into, the art in this is just extraordinary. I love this art, the style. There's something I don't even know how to describe the feeling of this art. We're gonna post a lot of it on our social media this week, that's for sure. But if anyone's read, like, eighties era swamp thing, late seventies horror zines, like, you know what this looks. But then when you put the coloring on top of it, because sometimes that art is black and white, especially in the magazines, it's just, there's something, I don't know, almost fashion magazine, right? Like, the way he draws her, especially, it looks like he's drawing a supermodel. And almost like you'd see it in, like, a soap opera comic. Like, it feels. There's almost something that feels a little, Who's the guy who stole the Kirby images to make soap opera Lichtenstein?

>> Rob: Yeah.

>> Guido: so, like, it has this very dramatic feeling to it, but then he does action and certainly the magic just as well. Cause it gets all sketchy and ambiguous, but there's, like, color splashes, and it's. I just love this art and this art style so much. I hope you did too.

>> Rob: Yeah, I did. And only after the fact that I look up. Oh, he worked on all these. He actually worked on creepy number one, which was probably black and white, but yeah, you can instantly see all that. All the chamber of horrors, all the Archie horror from that era as well. It's just all in there. And the fact that he also did the inks and the colors as well. This was very much grey morrow. Also great name. Grey Morrow's vision as well. Is it giving. Now, you're more familiar with his work than I am, but it was. I was feeling. Getting a little George Perez too there, or is that just. Am I reading onto that?

>> Guido: It's. The coloring is similar, I think. I don't think style, I mean, style wise, there's a similarity just because there's a precision and there's an expression there. Well, this is not the house. Look at all. Definitely not. he's obviously using the house style guide and being very faithful to it, but this is not the house. Look at all of the expression, the character that comes through in the face. That's obviously something that Perez is known for, and also shows up here. So I can see why you're making that connection.

>> Rob: So I was gonna say, for Jerry's contributions, what I love that he did, which felt like very marvel to me, was the dialogue. Like, I think the dialogue is great. I don't think Zaytana, necessarily benefits as much. Like, she's written a little flat for me. But Jeff, who's in it just as much as she is, is a great character. And he's like the classic, like, very Marvel wisecracking, New York showbiz type. Like, you could definitely see him in a card game with Ben.

>> Guido: They even talk about New York City, which is unusual for justice, for DC Comics position in the real world. But he is from New York City. He references New York City.

>> Rob: If you mentioned David Merrick, who was a Broadway producer. So there's, like, all these, like, in jokes that are, that are mentioned there. He, I thought, elevated it because he gave you that kind of outsider perspective, always commenting on the action. Again, very marvel. She was a little bit more flat there. And then story wise, I'm not surprised to hear that Washington going to be multiple parts and then was kind of put together because it feels episodic, even though it's supposed to be telling, like, one big story. And I kind of get confused as to what.

>> Guido: And then it gets rushed at the end, clearly, which is, again, because it was clipped something much bigger that was then clipped. What I do like about the story is it pulls in the important pieces of what we know about Zaytana, her missing father, her attempt to find out what happened, the mystery of her mother at this point, which I didn't even know was a thing, but comes in here, her stage performance versus her being a quote unquote, magician that does real magic. And I like that there's even, again, a very melodramatic, in a good way, soap opera y thing where she's talking about how she has all these different versions of Zaitana. And I like, it's hard for her to negotiate that sometimes. I like all that. I think it's when you get into the homo magi, race of people, and when she puts on the crown and feels all their pain, and there's all this stuff where I'm like, I don't understand what's going on. And then I have to say I was hoping, and it's so underdeveloped that I hope I'm just going to read it this way. Although it appears from the Internet that I would be wrong. I thought the villain Allora was just her shadow self, and I was like, oh, that would be really cool. Because her first appearance has her split in two.

>> Rob: Yes, because they look very much alike as well.

>> Guido: And, well, and she even says, I'm like, you're the darker version of you. And so I thought she quite literally was gonna just be the dark version. But then I looked online, and she does have a few other appearances, so it doesn't actually work to have her be that, but I'm gonna retcon it and have it just be the darker version of her. And then I think it's sort of an interesting story because it's like, somehow, through her magic, just as she did in her first appearance, she split off this dark part of herself who exploited the self doubt that she had. And so then I can, construct a more interesting story in it for me. That's. That was. That's my read of it, trying to make it into something a little better. I mean, I enjoyed reading it, but.

>> Rob: Really, I think it's a fun read, a quick read. But even some of the things there, like, a look, like Satana says to Allura, like, oh, you made the magi all sick, and you did this. You summon the snake. And Allura was like, no, I didn't do any of that. That was. It was like, wait, what did she do? What made those other. It's a. Like, it definitely gets a little confusing. And I can see where it was, like, oh, all these, like, separate stories that were put together. So to come up with the whole.

>> Guido: Yeah. And then even, like, the message in the end, like, she says, life is the source of magic. I'm strong again, and she, like, somehow gets strong again, and she says, the cycle of life is complete. Like, I don't understand what that. Yeah, I think there's a whole chunk missing from this story. Like, I didn't understand. it's almost a very witch's road esque story. Right. There's this idea that she has to go on this journey in order to somehow reclaim power, but it's not set up that she has lost power or anything. So I don't really understand what was supposed to be going on here.

>> Rob: And also, I think the same connection that you see actually with Wanda and WandaVision and I think in so many other stories where it's like, oh, she's magic and she's human. It's really the. It's really the connection to humanity. That's what make. That's what makes her strong. It's not the magic. I feel like that's a story and a motto, that we've heard over and over again. It's like, no, it's. It's not because you have powers. It's actually because you're human. It's kind of a Superman thing, too. Right.

>> Guido: That's a very superhero narrative for sure, but that.

>> Rob: That's kind of what it comes down to. But as you said, I don't really know why she doesn't have the power to begin with, but, yeah, it is a fun little read.

>> Guido: But before we move away, there are explicit wizard of Oz references.

>> Rob: Oh, yes.

>> Guido: Which is so interesting to see. Yet another. I mean, we talked last episode about why the MCU in particular, seems to be using wizard of Oz for part of Wanda, Agatha, and Elsa Bloodstone, perhaps stories. But here, coming in here just makes me think, like, is, wizard of Oz gonna eternally be associated with witches? Like, anytime you tell a witch story, does someone feel the need to reference the wizard of Oz?

>> Rob: Yeah. Not just witches also, although I definitely agree there, but also, like, any time that you're taken completely out of your element, I mean, one of the lines is, like, we're not in Kansas anymore. Like, and that's, like, probably the most famous line of wizard of Oz.

>> Guido: Because everybody, I guess the fact that this is magic and on a journey, like, it sort of demands a reference to wizard of Oz.

>> Rob: And I even saw just in this great movie magazine that you and I love movie jaw, where they were saying, oh, wizard of Oz as a heist story, because they're all then out to get, like, the witch's broom and to go back home and whatnot. And, yeah, you can see then, like, all those elements. And I can see some of this in the Agatha tv show, too, where, like, there's all these elements of, like, we need to bring the gang together, and everyone's gonna have different. Different specialties. And even here, like, oh, like, you know, always in the heist story or even Lord of the Rings or something like that, there's all these, like, episodic hurdles that you have to overcome.

>> Guido: Yeah. And we're gonna encounter different things, and each encounter is gonna tell us something about ourselves. So I guess there is just something so archetypal in that story. That is why we see the references constantly. And before we move on, actually, this will be a better thing for our next segment. So I'm going to hold my question, and I'm ready to go.

>> Rob: Okay, so let's start exploring some multiversity.

>> Guido: I am your guide through these vast new realities.

>> Rob: Follow me and ponder the question, what if? This is the animated series, season one, episode 54 from February 2, 1993. It's entitled Zatanna. And our question this week is one of. Zatanna was one of the first on screen featured heroic witches from either DC or Marvel.

>> Guido: I'll explain that in just a moment. But this episode is written by Paul Dinnie. Whoa, look at that. Paul Denny loved this character enough. 20 years later, he'd go write her solo series. and of course, co creator of Harley Quinn, directed by Dan Reba and Dick Seabest. It features Julie Brown as Zaytana. That is correct. The Julie Brown from Earth girls are easy. And everyone in the eighties knew who she was, and I don't even know why. Vincent Schiavelli as Zatara and Michael York as Montagu Kane. And so in terms of our question, what I was surprised by when I was looking at piecing this episode together is that really, there are. There's only one exception to the question of a heroic Marvel or DC witch depicted on screen. That exception is in 1966, Scarlet Witch is in the Marvel superheroes Captain America tv show. She is absolutely not featured. There is no way she does speak, though. She's not a non speaking cameo, because outside of that, she has a non speaking cameo in the Spider man, the animated series, and that's it. Otherwise, you have villains. You have Enchantress and Cersei. Enchantress for Marvel, Cersei for DC showing up in some of the cartoons or even in the Wonder Woman tv show. So you do have some magic villains, but you don't get a magic hero other than that Scarlet Witchenhouse brief blip of a sequence in the crazy 66 Marvel superheroes cartoon. This is the first one. Shortly after this, of course, you do end up with Scarlet Witch in X Men, the animated series, but it was.

>> Rob: Just cool to me to discover animated series.

>> Guido: She shows up in a number of things from that point on. It's just cool to me that Zaytana is the first, and it's an episode about her. Her name is the title of the episode. They were really leaning into, let's bring this character in. Of course, they don't use her that much, but there are very few recurring characters in the I made series that aren't the core Batman folks. So that is the history of why we asked this question and got an answer with this episode. Why don't you summarize the episode quickly?

>> Rob: So years ago, Bruce using the name John Smith so much for being the master detective there. Great alias. He studied magic with Zatara, and he and Zatanna had a mutual flirtation. Years later, Bruce attends a Zatanna magic show where she makes the Gotham Mint disappear and reappear. But when it reappears, the money inside is gone. Zatanna is arrested, but Bruce, Batman frees her so they can investigate who set her up. Turns out that it's the magic debunker, Montague Kane. And after a big fight on Kane's retro water plane jet, our heroes defeat him, but not before Batman reveals that he was the John Smith of years ago. And in the very Batman move, Zatanna disappears, preferring not to say goodbye.

>> Guido: Yes, and this comes a little bit from comic books, because in the comics, Zataara and Thomas Wayne were good friends. And in fact, Zatara was a way of introducing Thomas Wayne and Martha Wayne because they met at, I think, one of their magic shows or something like that. And Zatara even left Gotham City after they were murdered. Their origins are pretty bound up in the comics, so it makes sense what Paul Denny was doing here with this episode. So what did you think with this, of this episode?

>> Rob: It's a very fun episode because I, of course, he has Selina Kyle, but it's really fun having Bruce play off of someone, and they give Zatanna so much personality in this. She's super fun. Julie Brown does a really great job voicing her, so. And she kind of almost does what the character of her boyfriend manager did in the comic, where she provides a kind of running comedic commentary on the episode, which I also liked a lot. What do you, what do you think?

>> Guido: Yeah, I think it's fun. I think here's the thing that, that keeps it back for me. And this is going to get at the bigger question I want to ask, going back to what I said in the intro, which is there's very little magic here. They're really letting us actually, she could just be an illusionist. There's actually no moment that she's not just an illusionist, because even in the opening sequence with all the money set up by using mirrors, and then even in the final sequence, when she, quote, unquote, vanishes, she uses a smoke bomb to do a smoke pellet to do it. So she, in theory, she'd be a really good illusionist, but she could just be an illusionist.

>> Rob: Yes.

>> Guido: And I don't love that because I think I like the, what I like about the character, the little that I know it is that she is an onstage magician who also knows magic. And so I think this episode doesn't explore that a lot. And it does raise this question for me of, is she a witch? And were they trying to not have her be a witch? Right. Like, if we just consider a witch to be someone who uses magic, magic of the supernatural, type, then did they not want her to be a witch in here? And why not have her be a witch? Why have her just be an onstage magician? And it's interesting because the eighties comic we read, clearly, they were really leaning into the sorceress aspect of this, the high fantasy magic. She can go to these other realms, she can commune with serpents. She has all of this magical power, but this episode is doing quite the opposite. And, I mean, curious why?

>> Rob: Well, I think for me, it is because of the conventions that they had set up with Batman, the animated series, where there isn't, where he is facing regular people as villains. So there aren't people with powers. I mean, the only one really is clayface. And, you can put, that to science. So there's nothing magic there, and he's not fighting super powered characters. So I think. And, of course, the aesthetic, even this big kind of water plane, obviously, everything has that retro feel that we all know from the animated series. So I think they really wanted to keep it grounded in reality.

>> Guido: Yeah.

>> Rob: And she's just a stage illusionist. She doesn't have powers because no one else in the Batman world, maybe later on in the DC animated universe, of course. But right now, especially this first season, they wanted to keep it very much our world.

>> Guido: Yeah. Yeah. And again, it doesn't make me dislike this episode, but I think it stops me from loving it, because I would have loved exploring that a little bit.

>> Rob: I didn't remember it. So when, when she makes the mint disappear, I was thinking, oh, like, she was doing these other tricks, which are easier to do, pulling flowers out and making doves, blah, blah, blah. And then she makes the mint disappear. And I thought, oh, she was doing these other tricks, and then she's got power, and it's gonna be like, the big surprise. She does the big trick, and then they reveal, oh, no, that was, it wasn't actual magic. That was illusions as well. So I was actually surprised to see, oh, they went in that. But as the episode went on, it was like, okay, it makes sense. Also, like, when she gets arrested for that, like, she would just be able to teleport out and do anything. So I think they wanted to make sure, oh, she needs to actually be able to need to solve who did this. Otherwise, it would be very easy. She could probably just go out and use her powers to find that person.

>> Guido: Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I don't think there's really ever a disappointing episode of the show, but this is definitely one that, as you said, has the right balance of humor and action and fun character moments. And. Yeah. So I enjoyed it as the first major featured depiction of a Marvel or DC heroic witch. Yeah.

>> Rob: Even if she's not actually witchy here.

>> Guido: Even if she's not actually witchy there. It's true.

>> Rob: Well, let us wrap up with some, pondering possibilities.

>> Guido: Will the future you describe be averted? Diverted. Averted.

>> Rob: So, Guido, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?

>> Guido: Let's talk about what we would want from Zatanna, especially Zatanna on screen. Because on screen, Zatanna Zatara has had a ton of cameos. I think she's probably been in every animated project that there's been, including a brief cameo in Harley Quinn. She is live action in Smallville, but all of these are pretty small. Very rarely is she featured. And then movies. there have been a few in development, more than a lot of characters, which is interesting. There's a version in development in the early two thousands that would have had her as a teenager and told a story there. Then, of course, there's the very famous and very. I, am very sad and want to live in the alternate universe where this happened. Guillermo del Toro, Justice League dark, and it would have had her in it. And then also I want to live in the universe where this one happens because after that goes away, Emerald Fennell and JJ Abrams were working on a Zatanna movie. Emerald Fennell, of course, from promising young woman and Saltburn. So could have done really fun, interesting stuff with Zatanna, I am sure. But all of these projects have been cancelled, so who knows what is next? What do you think? As someone who has very little attachment to the character, what do you think her prospects are? How likely do you think we are going to see her?

>> Rob: Well, first off, Richard E. Grant is Zatara in the Emeril Fennel one. Right? Like, that would have had to been the casting. He would have been great just because he's almost drawn that way.

>> Guido: And Rosamund pike, could be her mother. Yeah, exactly.

>> Rob: Exactly. Well, it also feels like in a totally, not that I would have liked this as much, but it also feels like she would have been ripe for a CW show back in the day.

>> Guido: Well, I would imagine the Smallville appearances might have been. I mean, we know, like, the Aquaman Smallville appearances were a backdoor pilot, and they filmed a pilot. So maybe they were trying stuff out and seeing what worked and what didn't.

>> Rob: I'm thinking especially that they then went down the Riverdale route and, having that spookiness there, it felt like you could have very much had a. Not that I loved, like, Riverdale and all those shows, but like, it very much. You could have so leaned into that tone with the magic and what I guess they were doing with the Sabrina show on Netflix as well, that kind of sensibility there. So I'm surprised that that was not something that was ever done. Maybe it was also mentioned at some point.

>> Guido: Yeah, I agree. I think in terms of the future, though, I still think by virtue of her design, probably little else. I think we will absolutely see Zaytana on screen in James Gunn's re architect rebuilt universe in the next, I don't know, four or five years. I don't know where, because I just don't know her enough to say where she's gonna show up. Like, I don't know. Could they stick her in creature commandos? Could she be in the Green Lantern tv series? Could she be in the Superman movie? I mean, I just have no idea, but I think could she be in Peacemaker the second season? Like, she just is such a good character. And I think she visually and tonally could fit into James Gunn's universe so well that I think we're absolutely gonna see her.

>> Rob: I do. One of the things I think that is the most fun to play with, actually, is the idea of her having this dual life as a very famous on stage illusionist that people do not know has magical powers and then a actual person with magical powers or a, witch or whatever you want to call her. So I think that's something that could be really fun to explore, especially in an ongoing tv show style thing. It definitely has some of the Clark Kent idea there where she's doing living both of these lives as well, or Bruce Wayne or what have you. So I think that would be something very fun. Do you think that she, given that she doesn't have, like, a big villain or something, or that she's not as known of a character, even though people know what she looks like, do you think, like, she needs to be introduced in one of these other properties rather than standalone movie or tv show?

>> Guido: No, not necessarily, because I think visually she's striking enough, and I think the concept of magic, both as illusion on stage or as magic. Magical fantasy is appealing enough to people that I think people would consider tuning in, especially if, like, the casting is really good, whether it's a known person or a not known person. Like, I think if it's someone that you'd want to watch, I could see people tuning in to watch Zaytana. I think she's the cool thing, too. And the reason I say with such confidence, I believe she'll show up, is she is very different in every way, even just the little I know of her from Marvel's witches. She is not like Agatha at all. She is not like Wanda. She's really, and Wanda's probably her closest analog, considering Wanda's on the Avengers and goes on different teams, but has her own solo stuff, but they're not similar characters. And so I think there's so much you can do with her and not have it feel like it's been done before.

>> Rob: Yeah. And Wanda has always, also shouldered heavy, well, not always, but she's often shouldered heavy storylines and big emotional bits as well, and gone insane, and we've seen in the movies and in the comics. So I think it would be fun to have a character that has that power but can be played with more fun. She does animated series like Zatanna, could definitely serve that purpose.

>> Guido: And Zaytana has one very dark story. A lot of people don't like it. I do, but it's very dark. Identity crisis. And so if you wanted to eventually have her be part of something that's quite dark, you could, because she plays a huge role in that story. And I won't spoil it for people who haven't read a 25 year old comic, but, maybe one day we'll find a way to cover it because you probably haven't read it. so it's probably her most significant story, and it puts her up against Batman in some really interesting ways for a few years following it. But generally, yeah, she's in lighter stuff, so I think there's so much potential. I think Justice League dark is probably going to be the vehicle that gets her back. I don't see how they're not reviving Justice League dark. I don't see why James Gunn doesn't just get Guillermo to come back and do a little slightly different version that fits in his world. But whatever happens, I have a lot of confidence in it, and I think that's probably the way we'll see her. And I can't wait because those are some great comics. Justice League dark. Plus we get Detective Chimp.

>> Rob: Well, we were right about a lot of our Agatha predictions, so let's hope that we're right about or you're right about Justice League. Dark I'm a witch. Hahaha, that's true.

>> Guido: I'm a witchen.

>> Rob: All right, that is a wrap. Dear Watchers, thank you so much for listening. I have been bore.

>> Guido: I have been OD G, and our reading list is in the show notes. Please follow us on all social media. We'll post some of that incredible art eerwatchers and leave us a five star.

>> Rob: Review wherever you listen to podcasts. Or we will cursing you and cast a spell on you. And we will be back soon with another trick through the multiverse.

>> Guido: In the words of UAtu, keep pondering the possibilities.