Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast

Rob: Welcome to Dear Watchers, a comic book omniverse um, podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.
Guido: We are traveling through the storylines before and after that inspired her, took inspiration from this week's amazing alternate universe. And your watchers on this journey are me Guido. I can't think of anything.
Rob: Me.
Guido: It's okay.
Rob: And me. Rob. Wait a second. There's a little infinite in a little tiny bowler hat from another dimension on this call. I think it's actually Elliot of Elliot comic art online. Or would that be Talliat? Uh, that's your name.
Elliot: It's actually Mr. Elliot husband, Elliott.
Guido: Elliott, yes, exactly.
Elliot: Elliot, uh oh, my gosh.
Guido: So many details are going to get into.
Elliot: Yes.
Rob: And Elliot, you're here maintaining your record as our most frequent guests. So welcome back.
Elliot: Thank you.
Rob: Sorry.
Elliot: Ethan of, um, makemine amalgam. I'm the record holder. Not competitive at all. Uh, thank you. Thank you so much for having me on again today. I'm very excited about this episode for reasons we'll get into.
Guido: Yeah.
Rob: I'm excited to discuss this little known character. I believe his name is Superman. Uh, so we'll get into that in just a bit. But Guido, first, what's new in our little corner of the multiverse?
Guido: This episode is new. It's a little different than the usual episode, so that's exciting. And you'll find out why as it unfolds. And as mentioned last week, we're still prepping for a spin off series that we have recorded a few episodes of already part of a patron, uh, membership we're going to launch. And we're really excited about that. And then, of course, as we mentioned last week, we're going to be at New York Comic Con. But we're not the only ones who are going to be there because Elliot, of course, is coming with us on my birthday too.
Elliot: It will be my actual birthday.
Rob: Oh, my God.
Elliot: Oh my gosh.
Guido: The Saturday is your birthday.
Elliot: Yes.
Guido: Whoa. I didn't realize. What perfect timing this year.
Elliot: I know. I'm very excited.
Rob: We could do like, a group costume. We could do, like, the Human Centipede with us.
Guido: You're going to say something clever related to this issue? Like, we could be the Legion of Supervillains or something.
Rob: The Legion of super villains is good.
Guido: I've got fun outfit.
Rob: That was m fun.
Elliot: I was very excited because Brad and Lisa of Comic Book Couples Counseling will be there. I've never met them in person before, but now we've just scared them away, I think. They don't know if they want to.
Guido: That might have drawn Brad in. I'm not sure.
Rob: And there's thousands of people. We'll have to send up our Superman signals to find each other there.
Guido: Yes, it's sure to be a great time. And my gosh, it's like about a month away, which is so amazing.
Rob: Uh, excited. Spooky season. Comic book season, which is part of Spooky season. Very excited. But first, we have today's episode. So if you are joining us for the first time, we have three sections origins of the Story and what inspired this other reality. Exploring multiversity, we dive deeper into our alternate universe and pondering possibilities. We examine the impact and what's followed or coming in the future. And with that, dear Watchers, welcome to episode 62 and let's check out what's happening in the multiverse with today's alternate universe. So I don't know if you've, uh, ever thought about this, but guys, what happened to the man of Tomorrow? Whatever happened whatever happened to the man of Tomorrow? That is today's question, aka, what if Alan Moore told the last Superman story? So very excited to, uh, get back into the world of Superman and Alan, but we want to get into our own backgrounds before our origin segments. So, Guido, can you explain what is happening on this episode? He's a little different, as you said.
Guido: Yes. So during our origin segment, we'll explore our histories with Superman and Alan Moore because we are covering this iconic story, whatever Happened to the man of Tomorrow? And we have already covered Superman's first issue origin. That was on an episode not too long ago that I didn't look up the number of so someone can find it when we did our first DC imaginary story. And then we will explore Whatever Happened to the man of Tomorrow, which is an imaginary story, get into a lot of background on that and what's going on. And then for our pondering possibilities, we'll look ahead to where this story went, alan's impact on the DC universe the rest of his career a little bit. But this story's impact, which is pretty enormous, I would say. So that's what we're going to do. And it's a little different. So let's go.
Rob: Okay. So let's hop into our pods, blasts away from our exploding planet, land into the cornfield that is Origins of the Story.
Elliot: Right now on this very show.
Guido: You're going to get the answer to all your questions.
Elliot: Our amazing story begins a few years ago.
Rob: So what are our backgrounds with Superman and Elliot? I believe you are the super fan on this episode. So why don't we start with you?
Elliot: This is an overwhelming question for me. Uh, but I want to first start off and thank you both for your bravery and response. What is the word for being responsible? You're being responsible. And as a comic book podcast, you are actually covering Superman. Unlike I listen to a lot of different comic book podcasts and comic book couples counseling, refuses to cover Superman Lois spectacles. Jake hadn't even read Superman birthright, and he interviewed Mark. He introduced interviewed Mark Wade.
Guido: So waiting us into a, um, podcast.
Elliot: Warning, I'm like brainiac taking. Well, we'll get there.
Rob: Exactly. I think how I feel about it, Elliot, is like Superman says, with great power comes great response.
Elliot: Oh, no. Superman movie came out before I was born, not too long before I was born. And I don't remember a time where I hadn't seen that movie. I probably watched it for the first time when I was three or four. And that movie is responsible for starting my fandom of superheroes. So I watched that movie before I could read a comic. And I think throughout my life, Superman, the character and what he stands for has meant a lot to me for different reasons at different times. And I think that that whole mild mannered person who understands that they have a lot of power, I think is a really cool metaphor. And the pure goodness and morality of him is something that I think that I strive for. Um, I don't get turned off by the big blue Boy Scout or the criticisms of how can you tell stories with a character that moral and that good or not, quote unquote, complicated. Because I actually think to be that moral is really complicated. I think it's really hard. And so there's a lot of different reasons. I've always been attracted to that character. So it's really the movies that got me into Christopher Reeves portrayal of him. Um, there's probably a reason why I like dark haired women. Margot Kitter. Margot. The women I've always dated have always been strong, powerful, opinionated, just like Lois Lane. So we can't get into that too deeply. Um, but I've also never really been in the comics. And looking at my comic collection in the last couple of days as I packed it up for various reasons. All of my favorite Superman stories are either imaginary tales or these kind of side stories or retellings of his origin. And so I have never really been attracted to the daily exploits of Superman. I love the stories that are these big, grander tales like Kingdom Come and Superman birthright and even Superman red son. Um, and every time Superman gets rebooted and J. Michael Schrazinski takes them over, or Brian Michael Bendis, I've read a couple and then it loses me. I'm not really into the story as much. Um, I could go on, on and and on.
Guido: What is your favorite Superman story? Tell us. I know the answer, but, ah, explain it.
Elliot: I think Superman birthright, because of the most Superman stories, stick to the Jesus Christ analogy where he's a kid and Clark, Kentucky, in Smallville, realizes who he is and then you flash forward to him in Metropolis like the original 1978 movie, does an amazing job of that. And I was a huge fan of Smallville for that story. But Smallville was inspired by Mark Wade Superman birthright because it tells a story of how this kind of teenage Clark Kent decides what to do with these great powers. Robbie joked about power and responsibility, but I do think it started with Superman. Like he's, ah, the ultimate immigrant. He's not human and he still feels a responsibility to use his powers to help humanity. And why and where does he develop that sense? And Mark Wade does an unbelievable job of putting Clark Kent out in the world, and not just the United States, like, all over the world. He's learning, uh, how to be a reporter, um, across the Atlantic. Um, I can't remember if it's a fictional African country or real African country. Um, and just seeing the impact of all this hate and fear all over the world, and, um, why he decides to dress in his classic Kryptonian, uh, heritage costume. So I love that tale. And Mark Webber is the first one to introduce Lex Luther as actually growing up in Smallville and have that foil and have their relationship actually be more intertwined. So you understand when Lex Luther is older, why he would hate this alien so, so much. But it makes it complicated because he actually has a history with Clark, knows that Lexus is a good human being who is just a product of his circumstances in his family, just like he was a product of his being raised by really, really good people. And that's why I love red sun, too. All the what if possibilities if he landed somewhere else. Um, Martha and Jonathan can't get a lot of credit for raising him to be a good human being. So I think that's my favorite story. My last thing. Sorry, I keep rambling. You might have been there, uh, because Guido and I worked at the same school. We're both teachers and we had, um, Sherman Alexei come and visit. Do you remember the author, Alexey, who wrote yeah. And before he came to speak to the students, I wanted to do some research and, um, see what else he had written. I found an article he wrote about Superman. He's a huge Superman fan. And I asked him in front of the whole school, because all the kids knew I was a huge superhero fan. And I asked him why he loved Superman so much. And his answer really stuck with me. It was really simple. He said, Everyone thinks people, even you. He said to me, probably like Superman, because it's like wish fulfillment. We all want to fly and have these superpowers. He said, I think people like Superman because everyone wants to be Lowest Lane and everyone needs to be saved and wish they had someone who could save them. And I like that, too, because it kind of flipped it. And I think it's both. So I love that reason, too. What about you guys?
Guido: Yeah, I love that. Um, uh, Superman is omnipresent for all of us. But I read him most in the 90s, actually, which is probably I almost feel like we're starting to, uh, reappreciate or reassess at least 90s Superman. I feel like I see people talking about Superman red, Superman blue, finally, in a way that's positive. I love those stories. And I actually love the triangle era because I like interconnected stories. So once in the late 80s, Bern reboots Superman and they start putting the triangle on all of his titles so that every single week you can read in order the larger story. I was just in, even though I didn't have the history with the character, I was always more marvel person. Superman, Wonder Woman were always there. And I liked them. But it was really that story piece that got me this idea of a really deep soap opera. Mythology, uh, obviously is what I like. So I kept reading through the then I stopped maybe around 2000. And then, like you, I would pick up I read all DC events, so I read lots of Superman high end. But I would pick up when Bendis rebooted. And I just couldn't get that into it. It's actually only the last maybe two years and Philip Kennedy Johnson especially, and then of course, Tom Taylor and Son of Kalal that have me fully back into Superman world. And I like, uh, reading it and look forward to reading it. But I hadn't for a long time since then.
Elliot: Yeah, I'm excited too.
Guido: And like you, I've seen the movies and we both love Superman and Lois.
Elliot: Yeah. Oh, I forgot to that show, the um, back, like, puts it all back on what it means to be Superman. They do such a nice job. I forgot I haven't read any of Philip Kennedy Johnson's work. I'm waiting for it to be collected. Um, and I'm very excited for that. And I was going to say one more thing, Rob. Go ahead and I'll see if I can remember.
Rob: I didn't read the comics that much growing up. I think I was just a hair a year or two young to read The Death of Superman. I then did the read when Superman came back so that I did have those comics. I, uh, watched the movies on WPI X, General Weapons, the first movie and the second movie. Definitely watch them on that. But the main way I knew superman was lois and clarke. The new adventures, the TV show. I was just thinking, getting ready for this episode. I think that was really the first grown up show that I sat and watched every week. My mom and I watched it. She had a crush on Dean, which is not as well, certainly, but yeah, it was serialized or semi serialized. And I would watch that every week. And then that kind of almost was a, uh, training wheels for then getting into The X Files. We had kind of a very similar kind of storytelling even though it's a very different show. And then very much for me, I think even reading these issues today, that show really did harken back to that kind of Christopher Reeve and that earlier Superman. They were very light. It was that soap opera which you mentioned, Guido. And certainly Terry Hatcher had that very kind of tough as nails, sarcastic Margot Er kind of quality to her. And the villains were very bright and very colorful. It moved away from big cosmic superheroes and kind of focused on the toy man and those kind of villains, which I always more gravitated to. Like, give me a wacky guy with a weapon, which is the one thing. I also love Superman and Lois, but I really wish they had more kooky guys with crazy weapons. They had it, um, on one episode as, like, a little teaser. But that show always deals with, like, big aliens and cosmic forces. And it's like, oh, I kind of want a toy man or a prankster or some of those kind of characters. Maybe the show, um, I like the show a lot. It's a little serious for me sometimes in those kinds of cases or takes itself a little seriously. So I'd love to see a little bit of that wackiness maybe coming up. But, yeah, that's my background with Superman.
Guido: And since we're in our Origins of the Story segment so Rob and I looked at the Superman first issue debut and action comics a, uh, few months ago on an episode. Elliot, do you feel like it lives in your mind a bit? When's the last time you revisited some of the Golden Age sort of origin? Superman stuff?
Elliot: I got those collected a while ago and I've read through them. I like those stories for the historical context to see where Superman was. Hearing you talk, it's also hard not to it's impossible to separate Superman now after the movie. I think the portrayals of those characters impacted the character so much. Even though Lois Lane has always been written as a strong character. If you look back at those, she was like the ultimate. She was putting her life on the line. And, uh, Superman did slap her. And there's some problematic things in there.
Guido: Um, one of my favorite early meme sites is Superman is Dick.
Elliot: Yes. Oh, totally.
Guido: That was the best website that would just post actual panels from Golden Age Superman and when he was being a.
Elliot: Realtor, I think, to the 60s superman, when it got unlike Rob, I don't like all the kooky. Like, Superman up against the toy man is, like, really? Like, maybe. And that's why I don't like the monthly issues because the Superman stories that have the most weight for me are the heavier ones where there's huge stakes because his powers are so big and it puts his moral character on the line and the responsibility that he has towards humanity. Um, those older issues don't do it for me as much, especially in the 60s when we get streaky the Super Cat and the adventures of Superboy and all these little things when they were being written for kids. Um, or that was mostly the audience.
Rob: Yeah, definitely. If you go to your local comic book shop, just flip through the Superman section. Flip through Superman's girlfriend, Lois Lane, and his pal Jimmy Olsen. And the covers alone, you don't even need to read the issue just because the covers and the titles and the setups are just so fun. It's not necessarily the best storytelling, but if you want to just see something totally wacky, then they're amazing.
Guido: But talking about high stakes, what we read today definitely has that. So before we get there, though, let's talk about Alan Moore. This is an incredibly famous Alan Moore story. What are each of your backgrounds with Allan Moore? And then I'll share and also give a little bit of background on his career to the point when he wrote these. So, Rob, why don't you start?
Rob: Yeah, I had not read a lot of Alan Moore until more recently. Everyone on the planet had read Watchmen. I actually had not watched, uh, I had not read it. And then the Zack Snyder movie was coming out. I was like, you know what, I should read this before I watched this movie. Which I read it. And then since then, I picked up a lot more Alan Moore. I'm big fan of Providence, which is his HP. Lovecraft series, which is very interesting. I just recently read from hell. I had never read it, but I devoured it in like, three days. I got this giant tomb and I was like, there's no way, uh, this is going to take me forever. And I just sped through it, which was great. And now I'm reading Promethea by, uh, uh, Alan Guido's favorite comic, which we heard him talk about on the recent episode of Stacktails. And I want to get more into it because I think he shares a lot of things that I'm interested in. The cult, I'm kind of an Anglophile, so all those kinds of things. But I'm still definitely so I wouldn't say novice, but I'm certainly not anywhere near an expert in his work. Elliot, uh, what about yourself?
Elliot: I read Watchman. That was probably my first. Alan Moore way too Young was like, I don't understand why this is the best superhero story. I probably read it three or four times, definitely when Zack Snyder's movie came out, and then I read it again before the unbelievably. Well done, that's putting it mildly. HBO series came out, uh, and just appreciate it more and more. I would say I don't love Alan Moore, but I really understand why he's a, uh, genius. Uh, and I also love the Watchman's script because he's so specific in what he wants. Even reading today's Superman, every panel I'm looking at, I can imagine what Alan Moore wrote. Like, the rope comes off, you're just seeing her legs. It's like a low three quarter angle, like just giving Kurt Swan every direction. M. And it makes me look at his panels more closely than I do when reading any of the comic. I haven't read a lot of other Allen More stuff. I've never read Swamp Thing. I haven't read from hell. I've read a little bit of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Um, the things he's interested in telling aren't necessarily what I enjoy reading. And, uh, I need to get on permission to I've never read it. And, um, I don't know if I can call you a true friend until I actually read it. Actually, reverse that. You can't call me a true friend.
Rob: Yes, exactly.
Elliot: So I need to get into that too.
Rob: Yeah. And Guido had just recently gave to me the from I think it's Guido. Is it called? Like the from hell. Compendium or something like that? But it goes into his scripts for From Hell. And definitely if you're interested in anyone who's interested in the art of comic book writing and creation, should check it out. Because like you said, Elliot, it is incredibly detailed stage directions about everything that you see. Stuff that you don't even see. He's just kind of giving, like the misunderstanding of what this panel should feel like and then kind of letting that, I think, inspire the artist in some ways, because the artist isn't often even portraying what he's saying, but I think it's giving that aura that he wants from them.
Elliot: Yeah. Prime example is I think it's Watchmen issue six. It's the middle one. If you look at the last page, the first page in the last page, and flip. So it goes second and second to last, third to last. Every page mirrors it and it goes it's hard to describe the visual, but every panel is a mirror of that other panel until it meets in the middle of the comic. And then there's an X. It's just like he mapped out every single panel. And that story specifically, it's just genius comic, any type of storytelling, but comic in particular.
Rob: I think you're Alan Moore expert on the line. Yeah, relatively.
Guido: I mean, I've loved him since I got back into comics as an adult. And so he's such a part of my formative appreciation of the medium that I love everything he does, even when it's not his strongest. I also think because I've read so much about him and followed him as a creator, and he's really funny and he's smart, and I think people think he's taking himself seriously when he's not. And so he's actually quite an interesting person and commodity in ways that I think I probably would be if I had the same lived experience. So I really like everything about him, and I am very familiar with all of his work, even if I've not read it or read it carefully spanning from the seventies to today. So I'm a huge, huge fan and where he was. Let me give you some background, uh, before we move into this story. So he did start creating in the in the UK, then the early 80s. He gets into a lot of 2080 stuff, so he's writing a lot of serialized short stories or even just stand alone one shot stories. He starts to get into Captain, uh, Britain for Marvel UK, which is I mentioned specifically because I think it's amazing, but it also has a lot of the themes that are in Whatever Happened to the man of Tomorrow? And these are the same themes that keep recurring in his work. So what people will call deconstruction of superheroes. But this sort of question of what happens when a superhero is pushed past a limit is something that I think he's constantly looking at from Watchmen to The Killing Joke to Whatever Happened to the man of Tomorrow and then continues to visit those themes. So Captain Britain proceeds this. He starts to work at DC for Swamp Thing and that's in the British invasion of DC, which happens in the early 80s. Uh, he sort of leads it and then they start to recruit more and more and then once where Toggle launches, that's the full British invasion. He's also written Marvel Man for Warrior in the UK and becomes Miracle Man in the US. For legal reasons. But that is also very similar to this, really has the question of omnipotent super powerful being who crosses a line and what that means for humanity. He started V for Vendetta at this point, he doesn't go back to finish it until after this, but much of it is out. And then, funny enough, Watchmen, the first issue comes out the same month as what we read.
Elliot: Oh, no way.
Guido: So watchman is running parallel to whatever happens to the man of tomorrow. So we can assume then Watchman was probably all written, but it's coming out parallel to this. So that's all and more up to the point that we're about to explore.
Rob: Okay, so, yeah, let's grab our green Kryptonite to kill this segment and we will fly off into our next segment exploring multiversity.
Elliot: I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if?
Rob: So, as we mentioned today, we are discussing this story, Whatever Happened to the man of Tomorrow? And that appears in Superman 423 from September 1986 and Action Comics 583 from September 1986.
Guido: And the writer on both of these is Alan Moore. These are both penciled by Kurt Swan, though he got help from Murphy Anderson in the second. Well, uh, the first is inked by George Perez. The second is inked by Kurt Shafenbager. They are both colored by Gene Daniel, lettered by Todd Klein, and edited by Julie Schwartz. So before we get into a summary of the plot, a little background on this issue. So, ah, originally Julie Schwartz. This is leading into Crisis on Infinite Earth's, reboot of all titles. So Bern is about to restart the Superman mythology from the very beginning, wipe clean the slate. And they knew that they were going to tell this last story of Superman. Julie Schwartz wanted Siegel to do it as one of the co creators, but they were currently at that point, Seagull and Shoester were still in legal stuff with DC. I think they were in legal stuff with DC until two years ago on their estates. But I don't know. There are stories of how they connected. But regardless, he connected to allen decided it should be allen might have put himself forth for it.
Rob: According to the introduction before in the one issue I read that Alan said to Julie, if you don't give this to me, I'll kill you. And Julie also had to be like 92 at this point. 103. Right. Because he had been working on Superman since almost the beginning, basically.
Guido: He was certainly older, but I don't know that he was in his nineties because I don't think he died until.
Rob: Probably no, I know I'm making some hyperbole, but he was a much older person. Yes.
Guido: But Allen had written two other Superman stories before this. So he'd written a Meeting With Swamp Thing, a crossover with Swamp Thing, which actually has some similarities to some of these themes again. And then he'd written a Superman annual for the man who has everything. Which is sometimes considered even better than whatever happened to the man of tomorrow. It's been adapted into a Justice League Unlimited cartoon, all this stuff. But we wanted to focus on an imaginary story. And though that has actually an imaginary story in it, it is not itself an imaginary story. So this is again meant to be the end of Superman. So they also brought Kurt Swan for the fact that he's the Silver Age iconic Superman artist. And they really wanted it to be a nod to everything that's come before and then put a little pin in it so that Burn could reboot. The title is based on in DC Comics Presents. Throughout the early 80s, there's a backup called Whatever Happened To? And it would be weird characters from the Golden Age, and it would be a little mini story of sort of, what have they been doing? And so it would be like, I saw Congo had one of them, um, just those weird folks that Rob probably that no one else has really heard of. So that's where he gets the title from. So Allen writes this incredible passage at the beginning that sets up its role in canon. So, Elliot, I thought we'd ask you to read that passage and then we'll go into a summary.
Elliot: Oh, I would love to. This is actually one of my favorite parts of the whole story. All right, my best narrator's Voice this is an imaginary story which may never happen, but then again, may about a perfect man who came from the sky and did only good. It tells of his twilight when the great battles were over and the great miracles long since performed, of how his enemies conspired against him, and of that final war in the snowblind waste beneath the Northern Lights. Of the women he loved and the choice he made between them of how he broke his most sacred, uh, oath and how, finally, all the things he had were taken from him. Saved for one. It ends with a wink. It begins in a quiet Midwestern town. One summer afternoon in the quiet Midwestern future, away in the big city people still sometimes glance up hopefully from the sidewalks glimpsing a distant speck in the sky. But no, it's only a bird. Only a plane. Superman died ten years ago. This is an imaginary story. Aren't they all?
Guido: That is just incredible. But here's our summary. So eleven years into the future, it's 1997. Our reporters interviewing Lois about the death of Superman ten years ago. And she begins to recount the string of events which are the majority of the story and kick off with Bizarro on a murderous rampage before he kills himself and Clark's identity as Superman becoming exposed by Toy Man and the Prankster.
Rob: Meanwhile, Lex Luthor is in the Arctic and a Brainiac remnant takes him over. Back in Metropolis, Metallos attacked the Daily Planet. Kryptonite man shows up and Superman realizes something is going on and building up and has a touching moment with a supergirl from the future with the legion of superheroes who give Superman a statue. He also has a great bonding moment with Crypto. And the first part of the story ends with Superman crying.
Elliot: Geordi, Elliott, Me, Lois, his husband.
Guido: Felt the same as you. Which you take a lot of pride in, I have to say.
Rob: Yeah, and he's got that salt and pepper.
Elliot: It, um, can't be anyone else. Meets the reporter. So. Jordy Elliott. Lois his husband. Me. Meets the reporter and the framing device. And then we resume our flashback with Superman at the Fortress of Solitude destroying the giant Fortress of Solitude key while he keeps his closest loved ones safe there. Meanwhile, Lana and Jimmy get powers through a lot of different things fortress, like a magic pool and things like that. And they begin the battle with Kryptonite Man and Brainy and act and the Legion of super villains.
Guido: And Lana and Jimmy die in that battle. Crypto sacrifices himself to take down Kryptonite Man. Lex dies, but Brainiac reanimates his body and ultimately, the true villain is revealed to be Mr. Mix of Flicks that fifth dimensional imp who is orchestrating all of this just because he has been bored all of these years that he's existed. He transforms into his true evil being. And Superman realizes, thanks to the statue from the Legion that he should try to use the Phantom Zone. But when he does, Mixuplix dies. And since Superman can't kill and feel such, uh, grief and guilt about that he goes into the gold Kryptonite Room to strip himself of his powers. So we then wrap up the interview with Lois back in 1997 and her husband, Jordan, brings baby Jonathan out to her. Turns out baby Jonathan has powers. And we realize that Jordy winking to the audience is actually the depowered. Superman is Clark Kent. So that is whatever happened to the man of Tomorrow? Elliot, had you read this?
Elliot: Yes, I'm holding my, uh, collected version of it. It's got these two issues, and it has Allan Moore's, it has the Swamp Thing and Superman, and it has the, uh, as you noted before, what I think is the annual yeah, the annual, um, so I've read this a couple of times, probably this maybe my third or fourth time reading it.
Guido: Yeah, but Rob, you had never read it.
Rob: No, I have never read this until, uh, for this episode.
Guido: All right, well, where to begin? What did either of you think?
Elliot: Go ahead, Rob.
Rob: Well, I think it scratched a lot of my Superman itches that I mentioned earlier in this episode, which is that I think the fun thing with Superman often I've grown up with is some of that weirdness that is put through. But what I think Moore does here is give us some of those things that can be a little bit silly and put it through his filter. So Bizarro, who is kind of a silly character, and they kind of just took a little bit of Bizarro and put him on the Superman and Lois show to make him super serious. But here we have the basic Bizarro, but he's done through that looking glass of Alan Moore. So it ends with bizarre killing himself, because to be the true mere opposite of Superman, if Superman is live, then Bizarro has to be dead.
Guido: But that death, though. We have to talk for a moment because he says, Hello, Superman. Hello.
Rob: Yeah.
Guido: It works well with what you're saying. Like a deep inverse of the character, but mhm just clever.
Rob: Yeah. And the same thing with our human villains, like the Prankster and the Toy Man. You kind of read this and go, wait, they were never trying to kill people. Uh, what were they trying to do if they weren't trying to kill people? And here now they're trying to kill people. So he's almost shining a light on the more kitty friendly comics that we're looking at, where they were just trying to rob a bank and no one was going to get hurt. Okay. No. They're out to actually take people's lives. So I love that whole thing that he gives us what we want from the Golden Silver Age, but at the same time is showing it through this modern lens.
Guido: I agree, and like that a lot. And what I think it does better than I'm thinking about other stories, like an identity crisis. It's not that dark. Right. So it's dark in the sense that there's murder, there's suicide. Those are dark things. Yes, but maybe it's just Kurtzwan's art tricking my brain. Uh, but it doesn't feel that dark. It doesn't feel heavy and overwhelming. And even the fact that it ends with the wink, or the fact that the intro you read Elliot, there's a lot of humor on that. He's pushing everything to its dark extreme, but there's no sexual assault or rape in this, which I'd say, uh, bottom line to start at. And I think it works well to look at those extremes in this sort of fantasy end story.
Elliot: Yeah, there's a lot that I like about that. I mean, that opening paragraph when you read it, I read it twice in a row, too, uh, because I hadn't read it in a while. And just to go back, just the storytelling devices that he uses, like Lowest, the introduction, love it because it tells you it's going to end with a wing. Right? And when I first read that, I'm like, uh, I remembered it, but then I was like, oh, does it mean it ends with not a real wink? Right? Not a literal wink.
Guido: Right.
Elliot: And it does, um, Lois, his narration, I like that aspect of it. Mhm. And there are just certain moments on this. I love the unmasking. I love when they realize that he's toy men and pranksters little toys, laser beam office, um, Clark's clothing. And it reveals him to be Superman. I love sorry, Lois being saved. It reminds me of the first helicopter scene in the original Superman movie. But I love the narration when she's like, it's not a red and blue streak, it's actually purple because he's moving so fast. Uh, so there are a lot of like, really classic moments and for me, not really enjoying like, the silly villains. It does do a nice job of taking what could be silly, like the legion of superheroes and things like that and putting them in this context and wrapping it up. And I like that. And what I like most about the story is just that I guess we'll get to this again. But I really do like the theme of it. Like when you're thinking of the final. For me, there are certain things that have to happen in a last Superman story. Like does he die or does he quit? Or what has to happen for that to happen to him or for him to make that choice. And I think Alan Moore builds, uh, a good case, but it's condensed. Like now, if this were written, it would be like twelve, it would be a year long series. It reminded me. I guess we'll get there a little bit, but like Grant Morrison's all Star Superman, I can't imagine that he wasn't inspired by this because Grant Morrison does the same thing. They take a lot of what made the Silver Age and things like that silly, but put it in a final Superman story. Um, so I like aspects of that. I think there are better Superman stories. I think there are better, um, authors imagining like a, ah, what if sorry, what if this were the final story. But there are a lot of moments that I love in this mhm.
Rob: Well, I think he's working so much. I think what both of you are saying, too, is, and what we're all saying is alan Morrison is really working within the confines of what these stories were. He's not branching out. He's like, I'm going to keep it two issues because that's what you would have. I'm going to have it push the limits in some ways in terms of violence, but I'm not going to go past that. It's like when someone is reimagining a TV series within like the 22 minutes format where I still have these confines to kind of work within. I'm not doing a, ah, two and a half hour Stranger Things episode. I'm still working within that. And in some ways, those can generate. I mean, I think it can generate sometimes it can be hurdles to overcome. But when you overcome those hurdles in an interesting way, which I think he's often doing here, it can actually be more rewarding than just go off and, hey, you have a year to write whatever you want and you have no holds bar.
Elliot: And there's a good mix, too. I started laughing when Superman, uh, after he saves Lois and they're trying to figure out how to get all the metallic bots, he starts rubbing the pole of the Daily Planet globe and putting kind of the 60s silliness science. Like, if you rob iron, uh, in a certain way, it'll make it magnetic. There's that balance. Yeah.
Rob: And Lois is concerned about, like, the cars may be flying up, but she's like, of course they didn't, because he's Superman. He knows exactly what he's doing at all times.
Elliot: We have that balanced with Lana dying and Superman getting so angry that he almost kills members of the Legion of the Supervillains. And I was like, whoa. You don't usually see Superman getting to the point of rage where he wants to kill. And so even though that's a little bit darker, it's not done in a really dark way. But there's a lot of elements to the story that you get a silliness of the 60s characters and then you've got this more serious story. And, um, so he does a nice job of balancing intuition because it escalates so quickly.
Guido: I think that's why even in the first issue, one thing I think is cool narratively is that Superman can tell there's something bigger happening. We, as an audience, can't even tell that yet. Which makes sense, right? Superman should be able to glean these things faster than we can. And so it is really fast when all of a sudden, there's the dome over the Fortress of Solitude, and he's fighting this whole cadre of villains. The Justice League is outside of it, trying to get in. And that's on like, uh, three panels.
Rob: And they don't even have lines, I think, right? They're just the kind of thing.
Guido: No, they do talk about trying to get in at times batman, Robin, and Wonder Woman. Uh, so I think he just is able to because like you're saying, Rob, because he had limits. And I don't know if he chose to have the two issue limit or if he was instructed of that. I'd imagine since this is the last issue of Superman and then the last issue of Action Comics, it was probably he had no choice. So I don't know if he would have told the story over more issues if he had been given that choice. But I do think it works to have those limits because it just means things can turn on a dime, which is good for a story like this. Because you don't want to spend too much time in the descent toward darkness.
Elliot: And I think that's why it's worth, uh, a double read it once to get or at least for me, I do this with every Marvel movie that comes out. I watch it and be like, okay, that's what happened. And then I go back and need to appreciate it further. And I think the first time I read through this, I was like, all right, so there's this one panel where he is so upset with Alana's death that he wants to kill. And then, oh, that's gone. And then he retires at the end. He uses golden Kryptonite and to depower himself. I was like, that's strange. But then when I read through it again, I was like, oh, Alamore setting up. He realizes the stakes are big. I'm going to need to kill. Then he actually does kill Mr. Mixes at this point. It's so interesting when he shows up and when this, um, character shows up in live action, like, he was a character in Smallville, I always been paying attention to, like, how are they going to pronounce it? Because I don't know.
Guido: Uh, because it's made up.
Rob: Yeah.
Elliot: Um, in Smallville, it was like mixiers pitileek or something like that. It's like mixyz or something like that. Anyway, so he kills him. And then what I really appreciated is that without super spelling it out, that's why he gets to a point where Superman is now killed. He broke his code, and he realizes that he can no longer go on a Superman. This is like the high moral standards that I love about the character. And mhm, I really liked the end for that reason. And at first it snuck up on me and I didn't appreciate it. And then when I went back and read it again, I was like, this now makes a lot of sense. These villains pushed him. Um, his cast of characters have always been surrounding him, are now dead. Um, whether you agree with how they died or not, how quickly they got taken out, um, after so many years. And then, uh, yeah, he's done. Um, and the world doesn't need him. Anymore.
Guido: That's why the story as I was rereading it, I was thinking about everything I know you love about the character. Because it has like, what are his priorities? His priorities are saving the world and protecting the people he loves. And then he has this strong moral code. So throughout the two issues, he's focused on saving the world and protecting the people he loves. And then once his moral code is violated, he's done. So it works because, as you said, a lot of people accuse Superman of being boring because he has this strong moral code. And this is a great example of a story with a lot of tension and a lot of conflict. But he's not breaking his strong world code. In fact, he doesn't even kill Mix. Mixiplix dies because Mixerlix is trying to portal out at the same time that he turns on the Phantom Zone projector. So Alan Moore is adhering to Superman as pure and good while creating a lot of conflict within that.
Elliot: He says before he does the Phantom jump projector, he says to Mix the time to die. So I think he does know it's going to kill him.
Guido: Yeah, you might be right. He does say time to die is.
Elliot: Pretty clear because I'm going to call him Mixy. Uh, we get the exposition of now that he's bored. And now he's chosen to be really evil. Because before all the Superman tales with him before are Superman trying to figure out clever ways for Mixie to say his name backwards. So he goes back in the fifth dimension. The stakes are never really high. He's never going to be there to kill people. He's there to mess with people and trick them and things like that. All the things that Rob loves. Um, but now that he knows this is the only way, he's got to get rid of them. Because sending them back to the fifth dimension isn't going to help. Because he's going to pop back and have chaos in the world. So I think, uh, maybe Superman there's no other choice but to actually destroy.
Guido: Him for the first time any, is powerful. It's one of those good uses. And we could talk about this more in our next segment in a minute. But it's I don't think there's a lot of examples yet of comics taking this character who was like a gag character and saying, but wait, there's actually something a little more to this. And Mixing is a, ah, great example because he's so powerful, but was always used as a jokester.
Rob: You know, what was so interesting was this ending reminded me of something else, which is that there's another property about like, um, um, impish clown who then shows his true form in the end. And that's Stephen King's hit where you have Pennywise as this kind of clown figure. And then in the end it shows like his true monstrous form. I was actually looking it up. And it actually came out the exact same month and year as these comics.
Guido: Uh, September 1986 is quite a month.
Rob: Yeah. So I don't think they were clearly influenced by each other because they were both writing these at the same time. But it shows that, oh, maybe there was something in the air to what you're saying is like, let's take these kind of more innocuous figures of a clown and, uh, a little sprite, and then kind of transform them into being something truly evil in the end.
Guido: Yeah. So before we get into the broader impact of this and what follows, quick question. Would you want to go back to this Earth for more stories?
Elliot: I'm going to say no, because I think that wasn't the point. It was to close the door. Literally. He's meant to be Jordan is like literally closing the door that's shrinking.
Rob: Yeah.
Elliot: Um, mhm, because it's now a world without Superman. I think it would be interesting. But there's been stories being told in other places about what would happen in a world without Superman. Um, no, I think Allan Moore did his job. Whether, um, I think there are some things I don't like about this story, m, but he told the story I wanted to tell and did it really effectively and closed the door on that chapter before John Byrne rebooted it.
Rob: Yeah. I hadn't even thought of that last shot of it being like a literal closing of a door. But that's a really kind of great point. And I almost feel like too, I don't know if you all thought this, but as soon as you see her husband, Jordy, I think it's like, well, that's Superman. Right. But to me that was almost playing on the kind of the fun idea of, well, he just puts on glasses and he becomes Clark.
Elliot: Yes.
Guido: In this case, he grows a mustache and he's a different person. Yes.
Rob: And he's a different person. So I thought, oh, that he's playing with that. And, um, the other thing too, before I wanted to mention is, uh, I don't know if was the last time you all saw Citizen Kane, but this actually follows the same structure, uh, as Citizen Cain in terms of storytelling. I'm curious valid was influenced by that because Cain is all told through flashbacks by a reporter interviewing various people throughout Cain.
Guido: People have often connected, um, Citizen Kane to watchmen too. So perhaps he was at least just interested in that structure of storytelling, even if it wasn't that's pretty cool influence.
Rob: And it does, it provides such a cool way because it gives that nice framing device and allows you to kind of jump in. And like, here Lois is almost in some ways our central character, even though Superman is there. And which is similar with Cain. Like, Cain is obviously the huge figure in that movie. But we kind of see his life through his wives and his partners and things like that.
Elliot: I guess the only interesting part of the story is we're getting it lost in Superman. We're getting it in regular DC continuity with what is it like for Superman lowest to raise a son? This might be another interesting take. With a deep powered Superman, he can't really model how to use his powering, but he can, um, model morality and what to do with those powers. So, yeah, I'm going to reverse it. I'm a sucker for those. As a parent to some superpowered children myself. Um, and say, I think that would be an interesting one or two issues to revisit. What this little giant?
Guido: Whatever happened to the son of the man of Tomorrow?
Rob: I like it.
Elliot: Who crushes coal with his baby toddler hands at the diamond.
Guido: Even though it's 1086, it is the most, like, 70s decked out apartment ever. And the fact that they have this weird, like, metal fire pit in their living room that has coal in it that he can just crush into a diamond, it's very like, Playboy style.
Rob: Allen's house is only lit by handles and it's a giant stone castle. So this is his depiction of 80s?
Guido: Yes.
Rob: Well, uh, let me put my mustache on, and with a wink, I'm going to close the door on this segment and we'll open the door on pondering possibilities.
Elliot: Will the future you describe be averted? It was one of your best transitions. Rob.
Guido: Wait.
Rob: Thank you very much. Thank you. And because this is a little different episode gito, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?
Guido: Well, let me give you a little bit of where Allen More went after this because there's something that Allen did the next year that I'm m going to guess neither of you know. And I'm really excited to be the one to talk about. And then, uh, we'll talk about the broader impact of this story. So let me give you a little background before we just talk about that impact in general. So before I get to the key piece of Alan's career, of course, he wraps Watchman. He goes back and finishes V for Vendetta. Uh, killing Joke is 88. So killing joke is two years later. And then at that point, he moves away from DC. The conflict is possibly underway already in 86, 87. It's not clear. And goes to image in the 90s, Wild Storm, America's Best Comics, lots of indie titles. And potentially as retired from comics a few years ago. And then they used the same structure before I get into the big piece. They use the same structure for Neil Gaiman to write. Whatever happened to the cape crusader? Which was not a two part story, same deal, two part story. When Batman died in Final crisis, they actually have him. Right.
Elliot: Is that with Adam Cuber? I think I have a poster from them. I got it.
Guido: So that is a, uh, bit of a tie in there. But the big thing that happens is are either of you familiar with Alan's pitch Twilight of the Superheroes?
Elliot: No.
Guido: So, 1987, Allen pitches, and there's of course this huge pitch document that leaked, although DC went on a legal tirade and tried to get it wiped off the internet years ago. But you can still find the Twilight of the Superheroes pitch dock and it's really cool. It's a typical Alan Moore pitch. Dock. So it's got this whole intro where he talks about mass crossovers and what they can do and how they work. And he talks about the implications of storytelling that negates other existences and how that sort of lowers the stakes. And he talks about a lot of stuff we talk about on this podcast because 85 is Crisis on Inverse. So he's reacting to that and he's trying to pitch the next thing. So he pitches that it's the story that 20 to 30 years later in the future, he's going to tell it through a Maxi series. The superheroes are now essentially royalty in the world, and they exist in different houses. So there's like the House of Steel and the house of Thunder and the house of justice. And the main protagonist is Constantine. And it would pretty much just end in an ultimate battle of the heroes. But it would also restore the multiverse. He didn't like that Crisis on Infinite Earth killed the multiverse. He actually spoke a lot publicly about it being a terrible idea. And what's neat about this pitch document and there's so many more details, obviously I'm not going into, but this pitch document has been mined through to today by DC. There is no doubt. That is probably why DC pulled this document whenever they could, whenever it pops up, because it inspired a few years later, after he leaves DC and gets in a big fight, armageddon, 2001, it definitely inspired. Currently we're in the dark crisis on Infinite Earth. I mean, I think it inspired so much of how DC deals with time, timelines and multiverses because his idea was trying to figure out how to raise the stakes, how to make it all matter, and how to bring it together in some big epic battle. So I was very excited to make that connection because I think for sure the seeds of that are in this. He was probably writing this and then the idea of Twilight of the Superheroes was coming through to him.
Elliot: That's really cool.
Guido: So that's where we go in the world. What impact do you feel like the story has? Elliott. We can start with all star Superman you mentioned.
Elliot: Did you want to say something or do you want to go first?
Rob: You spent a lot of time talking about Allen, but these issues had a cocreator, Kurt Swan, who he was segwaying out of DC at this point. But I was actually seeing in 1988, he actually did a privately commissioned Superman comic for a tycoon. And that is considered one of the most valuable comics or rarest superman comics ever published.
Guido: It was for, like, a birthday party, right?
Rob: Yeah, for a bar. And he was not done with superman because in 1995, he actually did four illustrations for penthouse comics for a story man of steel, woman of comics, which details the problems details the problem superman would face having sexual intercourse where Kurt ended.
Guido: Kurt also white towards Kurt and Allen ball.
Rob: So I just wanted to make sure we touched on kurt as well before we got into the broader implications.
Elliot: I can't remember I've just heard about that comic for the private commission. Was that on spectacles? Maybe with Jacob Haze. It might have been that's. Now, my new grill, I can't remember.
Guido: Where it came up. Maybe Mark Wade mentioned it. I know that it's come up before because, like, an issue exists in the DC archive. And, yeah, I think there's maybe 50 issues in existence or something. So that's why it's considered rare.
Rob: It looks like he did some a little bit more work for DC after this, but for the most part, was kind of segue out of his career working for the pinterest case.
Elliot: Um, yeah, when you were describing it too, it did sound like that pinterest kingdom come. But when I was reading these two issues, I couldn't help but think of grant Morrison's all star superman, which I mentioned before. And even little things like what grant did really well was take. It was a real homage to superman's history. And it did imagine a final what would happen kind, uh, of the what if? Question is, what if superman were faced with his own mortality? And if you haven't read that series, listeners, uh, Lex Luther engineers this plot that superman flies to the sun and he basically gets super cancer. It only happened to him. The radiation is so much of these soaks in that he basically has this countdown clock. And even Alan moore, in the intro that I read before, talks about the miracles he's performed. It's very much like hercules and classic mythology. And so also superman, the structure is he's doing all these last miracles, but he brings in characters from all throughout superman's history. Um, and it reminds me, there's one panel, I think it's from the action comics in the fortress of solitude, superman is flying Lois through. And you see hold on, I'm trying to find it here you see.
Guido: A.
Elliot: Framed picture of two superheroes. It's, uh, a tale when I think superman and I think it's Jimmy Olsen dress up as alternate superheroes and go on these adventures. You see a statue of titano, who is the classic animated series episode from a classic 60s comic where, uh, uh, an eight grows up. It's like a king Kong thing in Supermass to get them. And then there's a statue of Lori Lamars, another ll flame x flame of. Superman. There's a statue there.
Guido: So wasn't she a mermaid?
Elliot: She is a mermaid. Yeah. She comes from it.
Guido: Oh, she is a mermaid.
Elliot: Um, which is another. Speaking of intercourse, uh, so anyway, there's these little nods to these past characters and Allen Or set it up and Kurt Swan sets it up in one panel that reminded m me of the way that an All Star Superman, Grant Morrison, Will, and it's Frank, quietly have, uh, one issue with the Legion of Superheroes, and there's another issue with Lowest, uh, Lane getting powers. And so it's episodic, but also tells this greater sale I'm going to speaking Hyperbole, there's no way that Grant Morrison wasn't inspired to tell that story. That was by this one.
Guido: I agree. I think that's what I think about the impact of this story in general is, as I said earlier, with the recasting of Mixie, this is we have to look at comics and you just don't see that. Obviously, there's comics with an X and all sorts of underground storytelling and all sorts of brilliant storytelling, but you don't see the deconstruction of superheroes in the way that we've seen since 1986 in All Star Superman in Kingdom Come in Watchmen running parallel to this. Uh, clearly they're related since they're the same creator. So I just think this and The.
Rob: Dark Knight Returns was also 1986 as well.
Guido: Yeah, I don't know if I'd call that a deconstruction.
Elliot: Well, it's almost a what if.
Guido: It's an adult defining for sure.
Elliot: Yeah, it does take that future piece of what if Batman had quit? What would bring him back? Um, this story also, I wonder if it was inspired again. Sorry to bring up the movies again, but Superman Two is when Clark Kent makes the decision to depower himself so he can be with Lowest Lane and what are the implications of that. And so I wondered if Alan Moore was maybe inspired by that. I don't know if that had happened before. There's a lot of stories in Superman's past where he gets to be powered for different types of kryptonite and lots of different reasons, but I don't know if any of them were his choice. Um, whereas Superman two battles, the tension in that story is, um, what would it take that's a little cheaper because it's just for love of Lois Lane, ignores all his other responsibilities. A little childish and selfish.
Guido: Um, I will say I found an Allen quote about the Superman movie when I was looking for he hasn't spoken a lot. For someone who has done extensive interviews over the years, he hasn't spoken a lot about whatever happened to the man of Tomorrow. I think there's just so much to talk about when he's, uh, doing an interview. But he gave one quote where he was talking about how he actually really doesn't like the end. And this speaks to the Twilight of superheroes. He doesn't like the end of Superman one because to him, it lowers the stakes of all the sequels. Because if he can just reverse time, then nothing matters anymore. So I was interested to see him come in.
Elliot: And I can't remember because Richard Donner, who directed the first two, he wrote mario Poozo wrote it, but he had a sequel plan. And, uh, he had a huge battle with the Sulkines who were the producers of that. And I think I could be wrong, but I think they made him change the end. I don't think that was the end he wanted. Uh, probably for that reason, because then they released the Donner cut, which is a completely different Superman Two story. Um I could be wrong. That might have been it, but I agree. Even when I was younger, knowing that was, ah, oh, you can turn back time. You can do that anyway, right? Exactly.
Rob: Do either of you think that we will see a film or TV adaptation that's a little closer in tone to this comic? Because, as we were kind of saying, superman has been taken in a much darker, uh, direction in the movies. I wouldn't call Superman and Lois dark, and it does a great job with the family stuff, but it does portray it very seriously. There's not much in the way of humor on that show. Do you think we will kind of return a little bit to what the tone that Allan Moore is striking here?
Guido: Well, before we get to the future of that, I will say, uh, something else I saw in my research. And, Elliot, I'm curious because I don't remember this movie that well, even though I did rewatch it not long ago. But the Brian Singer. What is that? Superman returns.
Elliot: Superman?
Guido: Superman returns.
Rob: Superman?
Guido: When that came out, there was actually some press was talking about this story. In context of that, are there any connections you see?
Elliot: Only that it starts off with that Superman has been gone for I think it's five years.
Guido: Uh, so maybe that's why yeah.
Elliot: And so again, it uses it as, uh, kind of a meta story of, like, Superman is returning to the big screen. It was supposed to be a continuation of Richard Donner's vision. It was supposed to be Superman Three. Take the place of Superman Three. Because Superman Three and Four are awful sorry. Richard Pryor and everyone else that worked on that.
Guido: Yeah, exactly.
Elliot: So it was supposed to take the place. So it was Superman returning. And also, it makes it a little bit more complex because Lois has moved on and she has a son, but it actually is Superman's son. So I think that might be who has super powers.
Rob: Right. We kind of then find out at the end of this comic.
Guido: So there are a few elements from this that could have influenced Brian Singer or whoever wrote that.
Elliot: Well, it's also Lex going to the Fortress of Solitude and taking Kryptonian technology, which in this comic, in this story, takes brainiacs technology. But that had already been done. He was already trying to steal that in the original Superman two, which came out before these, uh, two issues did. So it's hard to kind of like, parse out. Uh, I'm wondering if Alan More got inspired by that storytelling device and a little bit of what they explored in the Richard Donner movies. So, um, I'm not sure it is.
Rob: Though, the last time I think you've seen Superman portrayed a little close to this tone in live action, at least.
Elliot: Totally, right?
Guido: I think not TV, right?
Elliot: I think Submitted Lois does a good.
Rob: Job well, even in TV a bit. I would say even on TV.
Elliot: Smallville is probably the closest one. I think Smallville, if I'm remembering correctly, because I watched every episode of all ten seasons, has an issue that was inspired by, uh, Alan Moore. I think Clarke falls into a coma because there's a plant that makes him having kind of a fever dream. I know they did an animated series. I think they did it, uh, there too. There's a couple of episodes where I think it's even in season one of Smallville, where Clark and Lex both see their future and what will happen to them and what the legacy they'll leave and things like that. And there's agents, superheroes, so there's a lot of Rob. I would say that's probably the last time you see mixes. And, uh, some of these, um, more kind of 60 inspired kind of having fun and not taking itself too seriously. I would say Superman and Lois, I think it could go that way. I personally like the seriousness with it. And maybe once Jordan, uh, his son, which is named after Jorrell, but I wonder if that's why Allan Morri names depowered, uh, Superman, Jordan Elliott because of Jorrell. Um, I'm wondering, once he gets more of his powers, if we're going to get a little bit more of the fun stuff where Jordan might have to take on someone like the prankster, um, because he can't take on Kryptonians coming from the Phantom Zone or something like more powerful. The stakes are too high for him. So maybe we'll see that hopefully in season three. I'm not sure.
Rob: Yeah, and I think the Super Girl series actually was in many ways, kind of the true, uh, successor in terms of that tone, where it did have a lot of that lightness. And certainly John Cryers. Lex luther had a lot of shared DNA with gene Hackman's. Lex luther, too. And they, uh, definitely seem like they tied it back to that 78 and then again to these kind of Kurt Swan, Julie Schwartz Error Comics a lot more than, uh yeah, good point. Yeah.
Guido: And I just talk about Dark Ages. I find it hard to predict what Warner Brothers is going to do. I certainly want that. I will say, I don't know if it's going to happen. But even if it was Henry Cavill, I would love a bright, colorful Silver Age. I mean, a little bit rob, like we were saying on, um, last week's episode with what it could bring to the MCU to have the Fantastic Four be from the 60s, uh, and how it could really bring a whole different dimension and a nod to a Silver Age tone and all of that. I would love to see that with Superman, for sure.
Elliot: I keep going back to this. I think what DC does really well is tell really good, solid stories. Marvel, I love the continuity in the comments. It's telling one long story. But I think my favorite DC things are when they can take some theme and really show, I would love to see a kingdom come movie. I don't want to share DC universe. I want really good the power of these characters. You can tell some amazing stories, but when you try to tie it to continuity and have it grounded in reality, yeah, I don't think they work. I would love to see a Superman birthright. Man of Steele was close, and then they ruined it. I actually talked to Mark Wade about that when I met him at ComicCon, and he agreed. Uh, but if they told the Superman birthright story, it would be an amazing movie. If they told a kingdom come, it would be an amazing movie. Uh, it would be cool to set a Superman story in, uh, the make it like World War II era. It would be so cool. Superman, uh, uh, uh, the current Superman. Smashes the clan. That would be an awesome movie to tell an immigrant story. Um, use all these things. Um, totally don't copy Marvel because it's given Marvel some trouble, too. Right. Um, this makes really good fun story.
Rob: And then I think a lot of it is because of Superman as a character. Like, when you have this omnipotent character and you have a shared universe, you do almost ask the question, why can you not just go to Gotham City and go to Star City and everything? And that's not something Marvel really has. Like, you wouldn't say Thor is the equivalent of a Superman in terms of his invulnerability and everything that he can do. So I think that's why it works so well to have these standalone stories that are not part of an interconnected universe.
Elliot: Totally agree. Can I ask you a question? Are we closing it out soon? All right. Um, I had a question for you. Uh, if you were given the pitch of, like, a last Superman story, what do you think has to happen in that story? Did Allen more nail it. Or are there other elements you think that could be in a, uh, final Superman story based on who is a character and themes and things like that? Is there anything missing from the story that you would like to see.
Guido: Well, I'll start by saying I actually don't like for liking alternate universes. I do not like imagined blast stories, I think because they put a pin in something and I like the ongoing nature of storytelling. So in Marvel, they do the end. And there are lots of iterations of the end. Wolverine the End xmen the End captain Marvel the End And I really just can't get into them because I can't ever wrap my head around an end to these stories. So that's one thing that I'm always, uh, never as into it when it's an end. So it's hard for me to think what I would want to see. I like this enough that I'm willing to say this does it for me.
Rob: But yeah, I think this checks almost all the boxes. I think the only thing that is missing for me is some of that lowest lane intrepid girl reporter kind of.
Guido: Just a banter like her and Jordan should get another page of a little banter at the end when they discover Jonathan as powers or something.
Rob: You could do something, yeah, that banter her kind of going around maybe a little bit of Clark being in the Clark persona and interactions with her. So that all to me is what I think about when I think about this kind of classic era Superman. Maybe that was just sacrificed because of the amount of pages that he had to work with. But that would be the only thing.
Elliot: I can think of I was trying to think of. And again, this is total preference based on the types of stories we like and characters. A final superman story. This isn't feel like an ultimate sacrifice, I guess, of his powers, but it's kind of like the whole Captain America at the end of endgame. He deserves a break and going to live his life with Peggy. And I felt like this is very similar to that. It's like I'm going to depower myself and now I've done all I can. Which might be true in this sense. Um, but I would like to see some type of like really high this is high stakes, but it felt more personal. Like this was all the villains killing his friends and loved ones. Instead of a real threat to the world, there needs to be some tension, some choice he has to make and more of us sacrifice, uh, a little bit too. And kind of what it means to be Superman. Almore did do that with like, okay, he's now killed, but I guess it's too quick, maybe. I'm so used to drawing out stories now because it's 2022 and we're reading year long.
Rob: The two things I would say to both of you really is maybe I think for Superman, his friends and his loved ones are in his world. That is the highest stakes that could be had for him rather than the entire world. He really does come down to those folks. And then I think for you, in terms of it being, uh, putting a pin on it being a final story, how I definitely think about it and really thought of it more because of our conversation, is their son will be the next Superman. And really now Jordy and Lois are Ken. We're back to that beginning story with a young baby with Superpowers and these two normal powered parents. Obviously one that has a history of having powers. So maybe that's where the next story is. It's just basically continuing the Superman story with someone new. It really never ends.
Elliot: The only thing I'd say to that, Rob, too, is that Superman has to be better than that's where the tension is. He's got to be better than his friends and family and loved ones are his world. Um, but that always creates attention. That's why I don't like the end of Superman one, two, the movie where he's turning back time just for Lois, but not for anyone else. Yeah, I think it's interesting. And maybe, uh, like eugenie, I don't think there is any good final story. That's why we love comics, because that's the longest continuing story ever told in humanity. So, uh, it's always fun to keep revisiting and then get new voices, um, in there. But Rob, have you read All Star Superman?
Rob: No, but I think this conversation has definitely made me want to visit some of these.
Guido: One off supermarket m. Grant is another person I try to get Rob into because, uh, I also think Rob would love The Invisible. And Grants, another person I've liked a lot over the years. Let's do another rob has not.
Elliot: Let's do another one of these in a little while about All Star Superman. That'd be fun.
Guido: Yeah, that would fit perfectly. I think that's a great idea.
Rob: Awesome. Speaking of friends and loved ones, elliot, thank you so much for joining us on today's episode. Yes, this has been a blast. And can you tell everyone where they can find you and why they should find you?
Elliot: Sure. I always laugh at that question of why no, uh, one needs to. I'm, uh, elliott ah, ComicArt on Twitter and Instagram. It's E-L-L-I-O-T comic are all one word. I post a lot of drawings and, um, promote you guys, too. I love deer watchers. Um, and I'm open for commissions. I have a full time job as a teacher. And things are crazy right now, but I've always got one or two projects, and I love posting things about Marvel, the MCU, and, uh, I'm not on there a ton, but when I am, I'm posting my art. And, yeah, I don't post anything negative. So if you. Uh. Are sad about social media. Um. It can be a place for good and trying to be my best moral Superman self and. Uh. Not strongly worded opinions and just trying to keep it a positive place because it's a cool place if you want to make connections and share with people what you love and find people like that.
Guido: Like you guys and other people are posting your art. I saw the commission for a wedding. They just posted their official photography, including your commission. That was very cool to see online.
Elliot: Yeah, that was really fun. And actually, a guest at that wedding contacted me, and, uh, she just got married, and now she wants a comic for, uh, the same cover, but with her and her new husband. So I'm like doing that.
Guido: Very cool. Well, maybe someone will commission I love the cover, though I have to say I don't love the art on it. But of the wedding special for Superman when he's carrying Lois over the arctic, maybe someone will commission that.
Elliot: That was my wife, and I saved the date. And I photoshopped Superman carrying Lois. But I put our wedding venue, uh, underneath, and I flush shop here I come to save the date. And then Lois has a thought.
Guido: I do remember you showing thought bubble.
Elliot: Underneath with Lois, and I think he means, oh. I said, see, I come to save the day, and Lois his thought bubble, right. I think he needs save.
Guido: So I have been guido and I have been rob.
Rob: The reading listed in the show notes that you can follow us on Twitter at deer watchers.
Guido: Please leave a review wherever you listen. We'll be back soon for another trip through the multiverse.
Elliot: Thank you, guys.
Rob: And in the meantime, in the words of A Walk To, aren't all stories imaginary stories?
Guido: That's the words of Alan Moore.